My Predictions for 2005

[MaxxMatt]

To everyone in this thread who has said that matches are too much of a die roll - I suspect that statement comes from people who have lost.

Which is the point behind the underlined statement?
The consiquences of losing too much BECAUSE of a lucky dice roll is EXACTLY equal to winning too much with it
The consiquence is not being interested on playing the game anymore.
If I would like to play with a slot machine I'm not going to buy chess, no?

While Broken Plays should be encouraged, Stupid Plays should be avoided because while "Brokeness" usually bring interesting evolutions ( and this argument can be expanded even in non-magic-related-things ) "Stupidity"  would bring to noise and flatness.

Are you interested in "SoloPlays" or in "Magic the Gathering?  

[Smmenen]

No becuase it is nothing less than absurd to claim that any substantial number of t1 matches are truly "dice rolls" or "coin flips."  Workshop Trinisphere is not the end of the game.  Many many people have won in tournaments etc under it, myself included multiple times at each of the last tournaments I've played in.  People are just bitchy becuase they want to play their pet control decks.  Admit it Maxxmatt or should I say OMG 4cc is my favoritest deck evar!

[Kowal]

EDIT:  I started writing this a couple posts ago.  I'm sure you're all smart enough to figure out where it goes.

Yes.  And everyone's lost multiple games under them too.  The margin of these losses is far greater than you seem to be content to admit, Steve.

The bottom line is that Mana Drain encourages interaction, whereas Ritual and Workshop encourage masturbation.  Both of them are equally retarded, and the reason neither dominates is because either one can accidentally 'win' turn one and beat the other.

Pretend they're the same archetype for a second.

The most common question is "then how come not everybody plays it?"  Well they do.

As early as the world champs, you would have a top eight that looks like this:

4 Workshop/Trinisphere.dec
1 Combo
3 Decks with plans that aren't masturbating


We progress towards what, a Waterbury where the only duplicate archetype in the top eight was masturbatory Dark Ritual fueled combo?  Workshops were never terribly popular in New England, it makes sense people would want to coast in on the broken.

Oooh, ooh, and even at Richmond, where you guys decided Oath would rock the house, and everybody and their mother were packing oxidize, energy flux, artifact mutation, etc, there were three more trinisphere packing decks in the top eight!

And at Chicago, oh man, Chicago.

1st place:  Trinispheres
2nd place:  Trinispheres
3rd place:  Rituals
4th place:  Trinispheres
5th place:  Control Slaver
6th place:  Tog
7th place:  Trinispheres
8th place:  Fish

That looks healthy and not dominating?

Zherbus wrote an article where the thing that irked him the most was that he completely de-valued the winner of Chicago's power nine tournament and didn't get any response.  Apparently we're too used to putting up with Trinisphere being stupidly unfair and broken that we aren't outraged when about half our day is won because we're good at flipping coins.

The most skill intensive type one has been in a while?  Far from it.  You're off your rocker, Steve.

[the Luke]

JDizzle, Mana Drain is much more fair because it is very easily played around.  You can cast Duress, you can bait with spells played at end of turn, you can use Mishra's Factory and beat down.  You have many, many options.  If you have your own control elements, you can wait until you have mana enough to counter back!  Control is fair because if you play correctly, you CAN resolve your own spells.  You don't need to blindly cast spells into two untapped Islands.  This is true in many formats.  I don't understand why people think Mana Drain is in the same league as MWS/Trinisphere and Dark Ritual.

And to weigh into the argument, I agree with everything Zherbus said in his article.

-Luke

I'm willing to bet money that Trinisphere wins games when successfully resolved less of the time than Mana Drain.  If you resolve a Drain for more than 1 mana and lose, you have a bad deck.

To everyone in this thread who has said that matches are too much of a die roll - I suspect that statement comes from people who have lost.

Even if the above is true, it doesn't really interfere with my point.  Force the opponent to Drain when you're ready.  Duress them, Cabal Therapy them.  Play a spell end of turn to tap them out then cast Yawgmoth's Will.  Mana Drain can be played around the same way that anyone plays around Control decks in any format.  Sure it's more busted and can fuel Thirst/Intuition/DA or whatever, but if you play well you can control the situation.

Also, many times I've had to deplete my hand, pitching an Intuition or Thirst to Force, then had to Drain into not much at all (especially after sideboard).  By saying what you've said, you disregard that the deck with Mana Drains has to deal with another deck that's coming hard and fast at it (whether the other deck contains Drain as well or not).

-Luke

[Mixing Mike]

Trinisphere has sped up the format.

Storm was the worst idea ever in a format that cheats mana costs so easily, and one that has so many ways to generate such large ammounts of mana so quickly.

Smmenen, if I understand what you said correctly, then you call counting how many spells you can play before you cast a Tendrils "skillful".

A TURN 0 Game isn't funny at all.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Smmenen]

Again, it's just bitter control or aggro-control players.  Stop your whining and get in line.  I've played Drain decks for most of the year and made most top 8s.

[MaxxMatt]

Read better through my words.
Try not to use your "high level language's skill" toward me.
Even if I play 4cc i'm interested in two things.

FIRST ONE
Keep the game as it is now

IF NOT THEN
SECOND ONE
Restrict things ONLY to slow down the format, not to de-power single decks.

SUGGESTIONS
Dark Rituals, Trinisphere, Mana Drains, Intuitions



-------------

I said all the previous things being perfectly sure about NOT BEING ABLE to play my 4c-c-deck of choice anymore because of the lack of mana drains.

-------------

I wrote the last lines ONLY because, IF SOMETHING WOULD BE RESTRICTED, I'll appreciate to see a GLOBAL restriction, INSTEAD of a "partial and incomplete Placebo-Action" on our cards.

Any cards among the best one elected by some players here and in other forums are ONLY INCOMPLETE strategies to prevent a long term "XYZ.dec reign".

Restric both Trinisphere and Ritual --> Manadrain&Intuition.dec would alway win
Restrict both Drains& Intuition and Ritual --> Prison.dec would always win
Restrict both ManaDrains&Intuitions and Trinisphere ---> Storm.dec would always win.

Restrict a card of your choice for each archetypes and you would not see ANY PREDOMINANCE AND/OR LUCK ON WINNING any more, or at least you would not see soo many random wins because of them.


There is A LOT of logic behind my reasoning.
I'm not simply a stupid control-player.
I have respect for the game itself

If I would have fun playing an XYZ.dec instead of Keeper, I would have wrote the SAME LINES THAT YOU read above. I'm not saying these things to revamp my favourite deck.

AS YOU, EXACTLY AS YOU, I beat ANYONE of your the tier1s of the moment with my build AT LEAST AS MUCH AS I LOST TO THEM.
So I don't have to revamp, support or sponsorize anything.
My deck is strong.
Plain and simple.

Try to extract and free from prejudices my written thoughts from my well known state of "4C-C-Player" AND THEN reread all my lines.

I'm sure that if you would agree with a lot of my sentences.
Exactly because we are saying almost similar things.
With the difference that you are supporting decks-that-win-on-turn-two while I'm supporting human-actions-behind-my-victories

Am I wrong?
 

[Hyperion]

<Interjection>

Keep the discussion on-topic and constructive; it started off that way and should continue that way. If you make an assertion then back it up with an argument of substance. Flames or anything that could be construed as such need to be kept out of the discussion so we don't have to close it. People should already be aware of these points but some seem close to forgetting.

Your friendly Open Forum Mod,

Hyperion

[Smmenen]

No maxx, I think you are right in fact.  If Trinisphere is restricted, it basically means that Drain, Rit, and Intuition should be as well.  I was hoping that TOg would do really well this summer so Wish would have to be restricted, or Intuition, but Fish came out.  But I think it is safer to not restrict anything because of the risk of what i call, and what you have hit upon, a "cascading restricted list."  I have written an article on this concept tjhat will discuss it in more detail mid feb.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Actually, I don't see Trinisphere's restriction leading to a permanent surge in the combo population. While I'm willing to entertain the idea that it may, I think the only action that it's safe to push for now is "Restrict Trinisphere".

As everyone here knows, I'm extremely hands-off when it comes to making the restricted list, but since my crazy semester is over, I've had some time to do testing and more closely examine the metagame, and the Sphere is becoming more and more unhealty. Unrestricting it should actually help more closely regulate combo by allowing non-Fish aggro-control decks to reenter the format. This is especailly true in regard to Madness, which stands to benefit GREATLY from the addition of Disrupting Shoals. That is the deck that is most likely to use the card to great effect because of the diversity of its mana curve, but Trinisphere makes the deck uncomfortably difficult to play.

Also, if Trinisphere is restricted,  there is great possibility in several new archetypes that may be lurking in Mirrodin Block (I agree completely with Steve's suggestion that CoK-Block will have very little impact) or in another set that we have yet to fully explore.

[Windfall]

Kowal you are my favorite part of Magic: The Gathering.  When I first read your post, I was like, "Huh, he disagrees with me?  How dare he?"  And then I remembered that you're amazing and you proved it a couple of posts down.

Before I sold my cards, the temptation to masterbate to Beta Power was always there, but naked women were just better.  =)  Someday, perhaps, the players who get off on Trinisphere will realize that the glowing ball is not that hot, really.

     ~Mark B.

[MrZuccinniHead]

I'm just thinking out loud here - but is there anything inherently wrong with a T1 format without much control? We have lots of T1 metagames without much aggro, how is not having Control inherently worse?

The difference between games that take 5 minutes and games that can often go to time. Even you can see what that does to the formats PR. Instead of argueing, I'll just save ourselves an ugly cycle and point you to the stuff I've mentioned in the 3 articles I wrote and I'll be sure to reread everything you've said in your writings and in the end we'll still be on the same sides of the fence we are now.

Restrict the sphere first, THEN see if Dark Ritual needs the axe, but not both at once.

That's fair, I suppose. I just sort of think it's obvious.

...though control that doesnt worry about Trinisphere may be able to devote all it has to making Ritual-based decks less potent.

lol, that's what i was trying to say before.

[Smmenen]

You realize that the inverse is also true.  The difference is that if Trinisphere goes away, Aggro comes back - like Madness, Fish, etc.  

The difference is that Combo can completely ignore them and devote all its resources to Control.

[MrZuccinniHead]

@Steve: Touche, but it will still have to deal with prison like null rod and the like, not just counterspells.

@MaxxMatt: The thing that scares me most about that statement is that you are asking to restrict all the fast mana for each archetype EXCEPT Workshop.  I can give you three guesses what that metagame would look like.

[Freelancer]

The thing that interest me the most is that almost everyone (including me) agrees with the fact that trinisphere has to go...But at the same time agree that if that happens also ritual has to go and if that happens inevitable control would rule and mana drain would have to go...than something else comes along and rules the day and almost everybody thinks something needs to be restricted again...it is essentially a endless cycle off restrictions once you start...do we really want this? (in other words i'm starting to have second thoughts about restricting trinisphere)

My point being is it really so bad if one archetype (not a single deck but a archetype like control/combo/aggro/prison whatever) was the best since there is always a best deck in any format as long as the archetype isn't dominating everything is sunshine correct?

This is interesting...I now actually start to think that restricting both ritual and the feared trini is needed (note that was NOT my opinion before) since both make it possible to essentially win turn 1 unless the opponent has a force of will...And in the case off combo it can win turn 2 even if the opponent has a force of will by bating/duressing it away...
On the other hand if both combo and prison are weakened than control might make a resurgence on the back off mana drain/intuition engine and now control is almost unbeatable...Than in that case it's fair enough that they also get a restriction...but who knows what the metagame would look like than? it might be balanced but it also might be dominated by a single archetype and where back where we started only it now happens on turn 2/3 instead off turn 1...And thus it is a endless cycle both in my head and in the restrictions...in one way I feel that trinisphere is unfair on the other hand if we start with restricting trinisphere who knows where we end up?


These are just my thoughts and the way I feel and think about it right now...note I changed my opinion about this matter after I listening to what everybody said and thinking about it. Wich was actually quite difficutl for me to do...I r not good in changing opinion...*sighs*

Oh and about the disrupting shaul thing I think you have to playtest with it to see where it leads...IMHO even if your curve is as diverse as madness or tog you still wouldn't run because you need to have disruptive shaul in hand a card with the right mana cost AND the opponent needs to play a card with that manacost at the right moment...IMHO that is not going to happen very often, and when it doesn't work it will be extremely frustrating since you essentially have a dead card in the early game, and a card that is only marginally usefull in the late game...just my opinion though and you should NOT listen to me and still go and test the stupid card...lol (and so will I someday in the future)

Smennen I look forward to your article about this since it might give me a bit more off a clear view on this matter...since right now it's kinda blurred...


PS. i'm from Holland so my english might seem a bit off especially in these long replies...I apologies for that...I hope you people are still able to read it...

[virtual]

So, what are the viable answers for Turn 1 Trini, Turn 2 Smokestack.  

#1.  Force the Trini ...
Requirement  1x Fow in hand, and 1x other blue card.  
Result (-2 cards from you, -1 from them)

Viable decks:  This is Type 1:  Blue decks are good. <3

#2.  Land Drop, Land Drop, ESG + Artifact destruction
Requirement: 2x lands, 1 x ESG, 1x artifact destruction (assume maindeck)
Result (-2 cards from you expended, -1 from them (depending on the artifact removal, maybe more))

Viable decks:  Combo with ESGs?  Or maybe R/G Beats.  Maybe FCG.  Why are these 2nd ones bad choices?  I'll enumerate later...

#3.  Waste their Workshop (If it indeed was a workshop, and not some other artifact mana that let them get there)
Requirement:  1x waste (of 5)
Result:  Trinisphere is still in play, they can still get to 3 mana before you (Hence they still cast spells first) They developed their mana, so there's a good chance they have some moxes, so they may get 2 turns of casting before you get any.  If they play a crucible, ignore that turn happened.  They can still draw into another workshop or ancient tomb, and be set back less than you.  Lastly, most stax decks play ~50% mana sources (welder lets them be more useful in later stages of the game), so the stax player most likely will develop mana faster than you.

Decks viable?  Most anything, but this solution is a crap shoot.  It doesn't work every time.

#4.  Don't play a 2nd land, hope that they destroy their own smokestack and can't dominate the game before you can get to 3 mana.  
Requirement:  Uber-luck
Result:  You might have a shot at winning, but it depends how good their hand is.

Decks viable?  Most anything, but the stax player can stall his smokestack sacrifice by continuing to sac lands that he draws (once again the 50% mana ratio is helpful to him here while he digs for a welder or crucible, or beatstick, or most any other lock piece)

#5.  Play and ancient tomb as your 2nd land, and destroy the trini.
Result you -1 artifact destruction, -2 life.  them -1 card.  

This has potential, but now you're in oath range, budget aggro becomes a harder matchup, combo needs less spells to kill you.  Adding ancient tombs to a mana base means less basics which means you're more vulnerable to strips as well, so your mana base becomes even harder to design properly.  

#6.  Play workshops of your own.  This can give you a shot, but they still developed their mana first, so you may feel the strangle hold anyways.  

Decks Viable:  Anything else with workshop.
#7.  Win the die roll:  This is the best strategy, as it allows you to only be subject to turn 0 trini 1/3 games.  
Decks viable:  Any

So what decks do we come up with?  
Blue, ok given.  Workshop, fight fire with fire.  Wastes + luck:  This is budget's hope.  Combo?  Usually relies on 2 or 4.  Combo w/ ESG could work (hasn't put up numbers since death long), but #4 certainly isn't a good plan.  

I think that Thirst for Knowledge was really the card that broke stax wide open.  Before, stax used meditate, etc as its draw engine, but now using thirsts, it draws into its business, and it helps out its welders.  Also, Sundering Titan and Karn, 2 of stax's main creatures can turn a game where it seems like there's a hope from getting out from under a trinisphere (case #4, or #3) impossible.  


All of the "Answers" for Trinisphere that people don't maindeck (Maindeck artifact removal isn't a solution to this problem, it's a prayer)  Rack & Ruin, Energy Flux, Arti Mutation, Oxidize, etc. Are helpful, but even getting them in a non-acceleration deck doesn't guarantee a win.  

Some decks which have potential answers (FCG or R/G beats) have horrendous matchups versus other tier 1 decks.  

If Trinisphere gets the Axe, combo may become viable.  However, currently there are few, if any combo decks, that just win on turn 1 >40% of the time.  Furthermore, the fastest of them suffer from the aspect that if they are stopped (by force of will, or some other hoser), they have almost 0 chance of recovery.  Stax can't be "hated" by cards such as Rack & Ruin, or Energy Flux, and indeed if they can ever be cast, they do help, however  after having a turn 1 trinisphere countered, stax still has a good gameplan, and the match is certainly not over.  (Belcher blows its load, and just prays if it is stopped.  Slower combo decks like TPS don't, but they are much more frequent at comboing out after having developed a mana base.)

Axe Trini, Leave Ritual.  Baby steps to fix the format.  If you have a Ritual deck that wins > 50% of the time on turn one, and can survive through the hate of null rod, chalice for 0 or 1, etc, and has a good backup game plan if it fails to win on turn 1, then by all means bring it out, because then playing it now is at least as good as playing stax.  

Workshop is strong, and leads towards a low fundamental turn.  Trinisphere creates a fundamental turn 0.  Dark ritual has yet proven to give a consistant fundamental turn 0.  

If 1st turn trini happens ~40% of the time, and 50% of the time it means that he wins the game then the stax player wins 20% of the games that he goes first.  1/5 games means that the stax player or Trini-player receives ~1 game win every 2 matches absolutely free.  Type 1 includes broken plays, and they can happen to any deck, but not with the same frequency at turn 1 trinisphere.  

Turn 1 trinisphere just gives too many advantages to a well tuned stax deck.  
Artifact mana development before the opponent.
A minimum 2 turn xantid swarm attack.  
A deck which is designed to cast spells that don't feel the affects of the sphere.  
Lots of lands to help not miss land drops during any turn. (something which non-welder decks can't really afford, see the # of lands thread)


In summary:  Leave the format the same.

[MCS]

Altought I'm an aggro player and I don't own a single workshop card (except 1 welder), I think banning anything would be just wrong. I like the format as it is now. Trinisphere holds back combo. Strong combo holds back aggro. And control is also viable in form of mono u control and similiar. OK, perhaps trini should get the axe, but then again, there is always a tool to fight it. As long as force of will is alive, T1 will be stable.

The card pool is so big that it is just a metter of time when a player will break a combination that will make suicide black, r/g or t1 rock strong again. Restrict only cards that are too broken for t1 (like mind's desire).

[Covetous]

I want to repeat the best points I have seen so far because I agree with them completely:
1.  Why is having a top-8 with 4 3sphere decks bad yet having a top-8 with 4 mana drain decks okay?  Answer--because we think control is inherently fair because it doesn't appear to have a fundamental turn of 1 or 2 like combo or 3sphere decks (actually control has a similar fundamental turn but it's less obvious).

2.  3sphere in a way keeps the format stable--if you restrict it there is a strong probability that you will cause a downward spiral of restrictions that will end up with 5 or 6 cards being restricted instead of just one or two.  Until 3sphere takes up MORE than half of the top-8's of more than 3 consecutive large tourneys, no one should be bitching too much.

3.  Let's wait to see the results of the next two big tourneys before we make any further judgement.  There is always a backlash against the "top" archetype, and I think we should see how well 3sphere decks do in the face of hate and/or more resilient decks.  If you need to run 4-8 MD artifact destruction spells in standard, why not run 3 MD R & R's or Energy Fluxes in vintage to combat workshop decks?

4.  Let's wait to see if Disrupting Shoals has a major impact on the format.  It seems to have the potential of allowing control decks to statistically "guarantee" a pitch counter in their opening hand, making turn 1 trinisphere that much less likely to resolve and ruin your day.  3-cc blue spells are pretty playable, I hear.

Although this is probably irrelevant, I think Shoals will also be good in standard because it allows people to counter turn 2 ravager when they aren't going first.  I may have said this before, but I really like Steve O's assertion that Ravager will never be good in vintage--the reason it's good in standard is that it's so fast, but this speed is par for the course in vintage.

Basically, 3sphere may be unfair but not any more unfair than anything else in our format.  This is vintage--the premise behind our format is that since everything is unfair, everything becomes fair.  Think about how many cards are "unplayable" because of their potential for being Mana Drained, for example.  Drain is incredibly busted--not necessarily any more or less so than 3sphere or dark ritalin.  The same goes for intuition and goblin welder and many of their friends.  Think of it as the Cold War--everyone has the most powerful weapons, and so we have "peace" and/or "stability" in the sense that there is balance of power.  We don't like it because it's a continual arms race, but we aren't truly at risk for any major problems unless someone shakes things up.  In this way, we have each powerful archetype keeping each other powerful archetype in check--workshop keeps combo under control so that combo doesn't dominate, etc.

[Diakonov]

After some testing yesterday, I am starting to fall into the group of people who think that Trinisphere is fine.

I played three games in a row yesterday where my opponent had Force/Drain opening hand.  Guess who won those games...

I believe that neither a first turn Trini nor an opening hand Force/Drain are things that you can't still recover from; the point is, it's real hard.  The only difference is that it requires some thought from the control player to turn a first turn Force/Drain into an near-auto win, whereas it requires none from a first turn Trinisphere.  In fact, you could even argue that the reason control has always seemed to dominate Vintage in the past was because good control players know how to make that opening hand of Force/Drain into a win.

So what is the real problem here?  Is it just that Workshop-->Trini is too brainless?  Currently, I see control decks beating both combo and prison all the time still.  Control doesn't dominate any more, but as Smmenen said, why is that bad???  Many people have argued that Oath and Slaver are the best decks in the format.  It would just seem kind of silly to start restricting cards from decks which aren't the best, and which aren't dominating.

If it turns out that Trini does get restricted, it would be disastrous not to immediately restrict Dark Ritual.  With the numbers combo has been putting up lately, you can only begin to imagine what it would be like without the biggest combo hoser possibly ever printed (I am obviously referring to Trini).

EDIT:

I've done some more thinking on this topic, and I am considering starting a thread on a specific piece of it.  

I want to separate what is truly "unfair" and what simply "looks unfair."  As I stated in this post, I believe that an early Trini and early Force/Drain are equally unfair, but they appear not to be because one is mindless.

I think part of the problem is that Magic, like any sport I can think of, is technically a game of interaction.  It is this interaction which makes the game fun and interesting.  Control has been allowed to dominate in the past because it is still "fun" for both players to have the battle and the interaction, even if it is inevitable early on that the control deck will win.  Both combo and prison remove that element, which makes games dry and boring.  Combo at least requires some math from one of the players; prison is probably the most annoying, because it can often just be completely mindless.

It has often been said that one of the greatest spectacles in Vintage is to watch two good control players battle it out.  This goes along perfectly with my theory.  What was the last time you heard about two incredible prison players battling it out?

That's enough rambling for now.  The main questions to ponder:
Is it okay to have a game that can often require no thinking?  
If not, then would it suggest that the only acceptable version of the game would be a control dominated environment?  
Also, what about all the thinking that goes into the game before it even starts (deckbuilding skills)?

[mrieff]

To combat 3sphere, with control Slaver I am now playing 6 fetches and 5 Basic island, usually guaranteeing 3 non-wastlandable land drops in a row.
My experience is that usually 3 turns delay can still give you a decent chance of winning a match. Also, The other guy doesn't always have a threat to follow up the 3sphere immediately.
After boarding I also have R&R, so in turn 3 I can R&R their 3Sphere and their threat, still being on 10 or so life.

The Psycatog idea in control slaver is very interesting, if my metagame calls for it I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

[Akuma]

I know there are already 50 pages of posts prior to this one, but I would just like to say that I have to agree with Steve on this one. If you axe one, you are going to have to axe other cards. People are clamoring for Trinisphere to get axed, and then Dark Ritual, then what...

The whining will just continue, and the haters will focus on the next card that threatens their pet deck. Which one will it be: Mana Drain, Intuition, Bazaar of Baghdad. Remember when Dragon was big, what about when Trix was big. OMG TEH Type 1 is the Suxors, we can't deal with Rectors and Bazaars, they are broken, BAN, RESTRICT, crying heard in the background.

There are so many competitive decks right now, so many different metagaming decisions to make in order to win, I don't really want to see that change, only evolve with innovation and the influx of new cards. This has been said a million times, but if you don't like the power level here, you know where you can go...

[VGB]

There are so many competitive decks right now, so many different metagaming decisions to make in order to win, I don't really want to see that change, only evolve with innovation and the influx of new cards. This has been said a million times, but if you don't like the power level here, you know where you can go...

To go in the opposite direction - why shouldn't Gush or FoF be unrestricted, then?

And no knee-jerk responses, please.

[nataz]

To go in the opposite direction - why shouldn't Gush or FoF be unrestricted, then?

And no knee-jerk responses, please.

well as for gush, 4 gush GAT would (and most certainly did) eat most things alive, in a way more obvious manor then trini has ever done.

[Windfall]

Honestly, a domino effect of restrictions would not be the end of the world.  Trinisphere is the dumbest card ever printed for the most part, and seeing it go away would not make me mad.  I've played with it, against it, and I hate it either way.

The same would be true of Dark Ritual.  I love combo, but I am not one to say "it's not too good" when it really is.  The idea is to make the game fun here.

And if Intuition was next, fine.  I still won't be crying.  I would love to see the stupid decks leave the format forever.  I would love to see new decks come about.  I know I'm a minority here, but the game would be a lot more fun if every single game was not about Duress, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, and/or Trinisphere.

And Steve, Aggro won't come back because it's not good.  Every control deck has one or two ways to just "ignore" aggro for the most part.  How many times do you see a new deck with the descriptor "It's ownz aggro"?  It's because every deck owns aggro unless it's a really bad deck.

[Matt]

To go in the opposite direction - why shouldn't Gush or FoF be unrestricted, then?

And no knee-jerk responses, please.

well as for gush, 4 gush GAT would (and most certainly did) eat most things alive, in a way more obvious manor then trini has ever done.

Trinisphere would also damge GAT like no other card, ever. If Gush-GAT had a rough time with Sphere of Resistance, imagine how badly Trinisphere would beat it (they never coexisted, so this remains hypothetical, but use your imagination).

[Diakonov]

There are so many competitive decks right now, so many different metagaming decisions to make in order to win, I don't really want to see that change, only evolve with innovation and the influx of new cards. This has been said a million times, but if you don't like the power level here, you know where you can go...

To go in the opposite direction - why shouldn't Gush or FoF be unrestricted, then?

And no knee-jerk responses, please.

I think the point he is trying to make is that there is no reason to make any drastic changes right now.  The metagame is healthy currently, and any major restrictions OR unrestrictions would upset that.

[Covetous]

@Diakonov:
That was the point of my obtuse Cold War analogy--the metagame is balanced.  It may be balanced at a point different from the past, when it was balanced in favor of control, but it's still balanced.  It may just be that people need to MD artifact hate to laugh in the face of workshop decks, the same as in standard.  Is that really so bad?  

On a side note, I keep hearing people refer to how evil 3sphere is in Stax.  This is not Europe--stax doesn't win tourneys here.  I personally don't fear stax, even if I "should."  The decks that actually win using 3sphere are 5/3 and um 5/3.  Sure, nobody likes playing against stax, but nobody liked playing against stax even before 3sphere existed.  Until someone wins a major tourney stateside with stax, I simply don't want to hear about turn 1 3sphere, turn 2 smokestack.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Honestly, a domino effect of restrictions would not be the end of the world.  Trinisphere is the dumbest card ever printed for the most part, and seeing it go away would not make me mad.  I've played with it, against it, and I hate it either way.

The same would be true of Dark Ritual.  I love combo, but I am not one to say "it's not too good" when it really is.  The idea is to make the game fun here.

And if Intuition was next, fine.  I still won't be crying.  I would love to see the stupid decks leave the format forever.  I would love to see new decks come about.  I know I'm a minority here, but the game would be a lot more fun if every single game was not about Duress, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, and/or Trinisphere.

And Steve, Aggro won't come back because it's not good.  Every control deck has one or two ways to just "ignore" aggro for the most part.  How many times do you see a new deck with the descriptor "It's ownz aggro"?  It's because every deck owns aggro unless it's a really bad deck.

While I don't want to quibble over minor points,  I think that aggro-control  still has a place in the format, but agree that pure aggro is dead. But we've known that since GAT came out.

As for the cascading restrctions, I don't see that as an immediate necessity. Like I pointed out, Madness doesn't roll over and die to control if it's piloted correctly and people know what to sideboard. And Disrupting Shoals might also serve as a catalyst for other aggressive blue-based aggro control decks suck as non-Ravager Affinity or a Neo-neo-GAT.

[Saucemaster]

Honestly, a domino effect of restrictions would not be the end of the world....  

I know I'm a minority here, but the game would be a lot more fun if every single game was not about Duress, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, and/or Trinisphere.

But what do you think games would be about if they weren't about these?  EVERY FORMAT has a handful of cards at the top of the pack that decide games.  I am sympathetic to the Rit/Trini arguments, but DURESS????  And if you think that this format can survive without Force of Will, Rit/Trini or no, I don't even know how to have a serious conversation here.  Your games are going to be decided by SOMETHING.  Most people don't want that something to enable devastating turn 1 plays regularly, and most people don't want that something to be so powerful that it dominates all the other somethings.  But what you're calling for--and I'm dead serious about this--is one of two things.  Either A) rotation, or B) a drastically modified, significantly less broken version of Type 1.  (A) is antithetical the nature of Type 1, and (B) already exists.  It's called Legacy, it's only beginning to be explored, and if it really catches on it will go through tremendous metamorphosis, so maybe not all your games will be "about" 5 or 6 key cards.  But eventually that will settle down, too, and then sure enough, there will be cards that are head and shoulders above the rest.  And they will define the number of viable decks in the format, and games WILL be determined by them.  What you're complaining about is simply the inevitable result of a cardpool that consisting of cards that are unequal in power.

[VGB]

I think the point he is trying to make is that there is no reason to make any drastic changes right now.  The metagame is healthy currently, and any major restrictions OR unrestrictions would upset that.

Actually, my point was that Gush can no longer be considered such an aggregious offender now that current decks force out aggro the way it used to in GaT.  Workshop decks are putting up results similar to pre-restriction GaT; now consider how those results would be skewed if WS were as easy to put together as GaT.  And don't give me any of this 10-proxy nonsense, since people like to play decks they actually have the cards to.

The same also holds true with BBS now that that the format has sped up considerably.