[Deck] Budget UG madness

[Freelancer]

As I scrolled through these forums I noticed that there was no decent thread to discuss UG madness in vintage. I read the threads about UG madness in the newbie forum but they all seemed to have undeveloped decklists with suboptimal choices (like lion's eye diamond in a control orientated build)...

First off the manabase for UG madness budget:

22:
4x polluted delta
2x wooded foothills
2x tropical island
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
5x island
4x forest

some notes: full complement off wastelands/strip, why wouldn't you want to run these? you are playing a two color deck that has only single U or single G in it's manacosts and no collorless lands...besides sometimes these win games all by themselves...
Only 2x tropical island, this is not because off budget constraints (although it is a good argument ) but because 9/10 times I want to fetch basics, only in 'emergency situations' I will fetch tropical island...Also this makes back to basics runnable (or something like that) in the side/mainboard...
The rest is pretty standard; 22 lands, 6 fetches works out fine in testing...

Creature base:
4x wild mongrel
4x aquamoeba
4x basking rootwalla
3x arrogant wurm   (lowered this to 3, since it's great but often I rather flashback a deep anal. or cast a curiosity or wasteland)

Also pretty standard; mongrel/moeba/rootwalla have to be 4 ofs and arrogant wurm is quite good as a 3 mana 4/4 instant trampling wurm...

Counters:
4x circular logic
4x force off will

All standard...logic is so good in madness although a bit slow (comes online turn 3) but needed to maintain control in the mid/late game...

Other:
This is where the debate essentially starts, I personally like it this way:
2x energy flux (very good against stax obv. also wrecks moxen)
3x deep analysis (I like cards...)
2x curiosity (I like cards...a lot...)
2x stifle (no fetch, no strip, no storm, a very versatel card at worst pitches to FOW)
2x waterfront bouncer (makes game 1 playable against oath)
4x brainstorm (so good)


So how does this play out:

Turn 1: Brainstorm/waste/rootwalla
Turn 2: Madness outlet
Turn 3: deep anal./wurm/curiosity/waste logic up
Turn 4 and on: draw a bunch off cards while beating down the opponent countering whatever threatening they play



Matchups:

Control slaver:
Ouch this is no good, 1 slaver equals mindtwist...and if it doesn't your not running properly...they have the same amount off counters and your only hope is to beatdown fast and kill them before there draw engine can take over...You definitley need sideboard cards for this matchup, maybe tormods crypt? any other idea's?

Stax:
2 energy flux, many basics, fow, wasteland; combine that with strong and fast beatz, makes this matchup quite winnable...after boarding 2 more energy fluxes should seal the deal...

Combo (grouped together):
sometimes your counters/stifle pull it off combined with some good beatz but more often than not your gonna loose...these matchups depend a lot on the opening7, you can't beat there great hand but they also have trouble dealing with reasonble hands...We need some decent sideboard options for these...any ideas? (right now i'm running two more stifles in the side)

Aggro: (I know no good in vintage, but you generally get to see some off this shit in low lvl tournaments)
Generally quite good, you have strong creatures combine that with counters/card advantage and you have a game winner...

General control: (there is quite a lot off this in my meta, ranging from scepter chant to landstill)
Deep analysis is da shiznit here, they have to counter it twice get through your counters and generally have no swift win conditions...Card advantage is key word here...

Oath:
Maindeck bouncer will steal some games pre sideboard and so will wastelands...but they have more counters, 4 cards that say essentially I won boohooo...and your slower than them...Not the greatest off matchups at all, but what aggro deck can say it has a good matchup against oath?
Again I need good sideboard cards against oath...and I have no clue what to run, right now i'm running naturalize but you need the turn after they drop oath...after oathing they have counters up and a big creature in play...any suggestions?



Any suggestions are helpfull, and enjoy the discussion...

Ps. I'm from Holland so don't be to harsh on my grammar...thx in advance...

[sierra_gandalf]

I've played UG Madnesss a few time and I play this deck:

Creatures:

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Aquamoeba
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Wonder (maybe 2x Waterfront Bouncer)

Draw Engine:

4x Brainstorm
2x Deep Analysis
1x Gush

Countermagic:

4x Force of Will
4x Circular Logic

Mana Denial:

3x Back To Basics
3x Null Rod
4x Wasteland
Strip Mine

Mana Base:

4x Tropical Island
3x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
4x Island
4x Forest

I run only 4 fetch lands because here (in Spain) there isn't much nonbasic land hate, and you want always Tropical Island in your board, but if you are going by the Back To Basics plan (winning destroying the mana base of your opponent) you may fetch a basic land, and because you will need more U mana than G(only for creatures), there are 3 polluted delta and 1 windswept heath. I think that Energy Flux (in my meta) isn't necesary, but i run null rod for the mana denial plan. I have 3 Energy Flux in my SB, and maybe I will add 2 annul SB. I don't use curiosity because i don't need more cards and the slots are very limited, the only thing that maybe out are wonders, and they will be replaced by waterfront bouncers. I run 4 arrogant wurm cause you often prefer to play a 4/4 trample for beat opponent than the flashback in early game, i use flashbacks in turn 4+. Stifle is a meta-call. It seems to me each day worse. I don't have any stifle in the SB. I use against Storm Combo Arcane Laboratory, wich is good against FCG.

PD: Excuse my english but i'm spanish and i don't know much.

[Freelancer]

How has the gush been working for you? I usually found that returning 2 lands isn't exactly beneficial to the game plan off madness since you want to cast threads/draw/disruption turn 3/4 and a turn 5 gush is a bit slow...

Also how can more cards ever be bad?

Did you encounter any problems concerning back to basics main and 4x tropical island?

Fetches are also good for deck thinning and brainstorm synergy...

[sierra_gandalf]

gush is better than you think, i often use it like a surprise: you attack with a wild mongrel, and if it's not blocked (no blockers, wonder), you may play gush and kill him or her, it's 4 cards more in hand, and 4 damage more... but maybe i will change it... 1 deep analysis seems the best option. With 4 Tropical Island the B2B MD works very well, i run 8 basic lands (you run 9) and you may play with no fear of Mana Drains (cause he or she will be tapped). Yeah, fetchs are good for brainstorm, but i feel good with 4 fetches, i don't add more.

[Joblin Velder]

For the Oath match, I side in Waterfront Bouncers and Guilded Drakes. It works really well. After they side in the Irridecent Angels, you can race them.

[Rancor1]

I have always liked madness (I have played it multiple times in 5 different formats,) and I am glad that there is some real discussion going on about it. That said, I am still not convinced that it is the right choice for T1 right now.

Firstly, I would probably cut the curiosities for B2Bs. They are great against control, which I just don't think is as great as you may think.

Some thoughts on combo: Stifles are great here. Another two on the side is a great idea. I am also having trouble figuring out what to do about this matchup, and I'm drawing a blank. It is clearly worse than C.Slaver.

Which leads me to some thoughts on C.Slaver: This isn't as bad as you think. You have 2 flux (2 more in the side, I hope), and SB grounds seal, which is often a game loss if it resolves. I would usually wait until the 3rd turn to play it to have logic mana up (if you are confident that you won't be slaved while doing so.)

That said, my SB would consist of:
2 Flux
2 Bouncer/Aether Spellbomb/Rushing River/Seal of Removal, depending  on how much oath you see.
4 Ground Seal
2 Stifle
2 (more) B2B
3 Others

[xrobx]

I used to play madness awhile back when I had it fully powered, but since gave up the idea due to meta changes and whatnot.

That said, I believe the strongest build is still aggro madness, but this discussion is geared towards control madness so we'll discuss that.

Okay, so I'm assuming gush is a must; its 'draw 2 cards for free' ability is amazing, especially when you like discarding rootwallas, wonders, wurms, anals, etc.  Definately a must, dont be afraid to float mana either because in most cases you can draw into something you can discard with a madness cost, and make use of the 2 floating mana (or even a brainstorm).

I'd suggest daze here as well, but it seems kind of useless when you don't run mana accelerants and need to be keeping your mana high to cast threats.  So, NO DAZE.

On to accelerants, on a budget scale.  How has testing been with lotus petal and mana crypt?  These are both very strong cards and produce early mana to get your threats down asap.  

Another suggestion would be FRANTIC SEARCH.  It is a free careful study at instant speed.  I'd like to say this is a must for a control madness, as it can easily be cast at the EOT when you don't use your counter mana on their turn, or even on your turn to drop a wurm or rootwalla, etc etc.

Also, the whole reason madness was even good before was its evasive fatties that could come in at the drop of a hat.  I do think wonder is quite a good choice here as it provides solid evasion abilities for your creatures.  Also, aquamobae as a discard engine isn't needed entirely (at 4), and can easily be cut back to free up spots.

A fun idea I'd suggest trying would be the addition of ESG to the manabase, and if this is present, it's quite helpful to run a restocking card like windfall/wheel.  Again, this is a fun idea and may not prove to be more helpful than detrimental but it's at your discretion and is just a suggestion

Currently I'm fiddling around with root maze, and finding great results.  Could madness incorporate this card into its maindeck in heavy combo/stax/mws environments?  It seems to like waiting for mana is what this deck likes to do anyways, and this definately slows down your combo matchups and stax first turn locks  Have fun guys.

[Freelancer]

Frantic search: I have tested this card and really didn't like it at all...I dont know or it's just personal or something but I hate cards that I can only play turn 3> and that don't do any big splashy things...(probably more personal preference)

Gush: I will start testing this out as a replacement for a single deep analysis...it seems like a pretty good finisher...

Root maze: great idea this is certainly another thing I will test...since generally you only slowed down a little bit...I played RG beatz for a while and everytime I saw root maze I loved it...so yeah a good idea...

Wonder: Yes evasion is good especially with a curiosity and as a final deathblow...my problem here however is that it's usually not needed...I will probably take out the curiosity's again for these just to see where it leads...

ESG and other one shot acc.: No good for madness really...Since it has a really tight mana curve a turn 1 madness outlet is't much better than a turn 1 brainstorm...atleast that was my experience with testing...also it makes it impossible to drop a wurm the next turn and your slowed down again...

Mana crypt: this is a suggestion I didn't really thought about since in the beginning null rod was still in the deck and I didn't wanted any artifact mana...but since rod went out I will test this as well...(lot's off testing to do in this busy time)

B2B: the reason I don't run this is that most people are prepared for it and that the impact isn't that big anymore...Also curiosity's are quite nice for against control...

Bouncer and others: How are you planning to race pristine angel? most off the time it attacks every turn for 4 while also being ready to block your best creature next turn...

Ground seal: How effective is this for a graveyard hate tool? isn't tormods crypt better since you can drop it turn 1 and shuts down welders just as well...while also disrupting the possible sideboard plan off bringing in TOG for the kill...


Thx a lot for all off the suggestions...I certainly have some testing ahead off me...Great!!

[Rancor1]

Don't play frantic search. It's slow, and pretty much worse than careful study, which we aren't even playing. I would play one gush in that slot.

Root maze seems a little lame when you're playing six fetches.

It seems like wonder isn't that good. Few decks have things to fly over, and it seems like against decks like workshop aggro, you would be more concerned about stopping the fat than attacking. I say this with almost no testing, however.

Ground Seal is slower, but it stops welders (and dragon) every turn.

[timmy]

I feel the need to reply on this thread as I have been playing madness forever.

I have played in 3 power tournaments with it and top 8ed in all.  making it to the finals in 2 and winning 1.

I have played a very standard madness build.  While I hate to post another list, I feel that it will help the discussion.  This list has 5 proxys as most tournaments allow them anyways.

creatures 16
4 Wild mongrel
4 Aquameoba
4 Basking rootwalla
4 arrogant wurm
2 wonder

CA 9
3 deep analysis
1 gush
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
3 brainstorm

other 3
3 null rod

mana 22
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus
3 island
3 forest
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

sideboard
3 energy flux
3 Beb
3 Naturalize
3 gilded drake
3 arcane lab

Answers to a couple arguements:
I have tried LED for a long time and while sometimes it can be awesome, most of the time it is dead.
Gush should be in the deck.  It allows you to tap for 2, gush and replay a land for the third mana.  This comes into play often when you keep a mana light hand.
Tropical islands are great.  If your opponent wishes to use wastes on them then he is hurting his mana base even more.  As you have the upper hand in the early game.  So you can keep him even lower with your own wastes.
Rootmaze slows you down way to much.  I would not run it unless every deck you play against is combo.

The strengths and weaknesses:
This is a deck that requires a good knowledge of your opponents deck and how it runs.  If you have a good knowledge of how the decks in your meta run this is a great choice.  The main reason is against different decks, draws, and starts of a deck you can choose different ways to run madness.  Many times you will either go all out aggro or all out control.  Other strategys include keeping a waste heavy hand with a lone beater or two and try to mana screw them the entire game.
The sideboard can also be switched up very easily based on the meta.  It is also an unexpected deck and you will see very little in the way of sideboards.


matchups:
Oath:
While this looks like a headache, most of the times it isn't.  You can usually keep oath of the table long enough to race.  I had to play 2 oath decks in a recent tournament and at first I was very scared of them.  But thanks to my knowledge of the deck I was able to easily handle both of them.

Workshop aggro:
These are fun matchups as long as you can keep the welder of the board.  Many times you will lose the first game and win the next two handily thanks to energy flux.  At first I was very scared of this matchup but have grown to like it very much thanks to energy flux.

Slavery:
This is a matchup that I have tested a lot as of late.  While sometimes it can just own you, many times you can go all out aggro and win before they can stabilize.  That said this matchup becomes a lot better when you know how slavery works.  I would suggest proxying it up and learning to play slavery.  This will go along ways in helping you beat the deck.

FCG:
Another match that can be a headache.  However if you sit down and just play a ton of games against it you will learn how to beat it.  I played against it forever and can now usually handle it with ease.


I would say the number one thing to do if you want to be good with madness is proxy up all the decks you suspect are in your metagame.  Then learn to play them all.  After you do this sit down and play a lot of games against them pre and post sideboard.  I know this is usually standard precedure for most decks, but it is so much more so with madness.  Believe tons of playtesting will pay off more with this deck than any other deck.

I believe the control madness to be the much better of the two decks, aggro and control, mainly because it is more reliable and does have counters to help against trouble spells.  Plus it has the ability to be just as fast.

[xrobx]

Again, I don't know if it belongs here, but so far both counter arguments are quite uninformative.

The argument that rootmaze with fetches main is bad, is not a good argument.  You can play around these very easily, and I don't know if I'd be running more than 4 fetch in a blue/green deck anyhow.

Rootmaze slows you down way to much. I would not run it unless every deck you play against is combo.

Not so true.  How much does it slow you down?  You can discard and play creatures THROUGH your own creatures for minimal amounts of mana, sometimes 0.  Doesn't this effect then dampen your opponents ability to deal with your fast fat creatures?  Plus, there is no artifact accel in this budget deck.  Hence, your opponents moxen coming into play tapped is a great advantage for you.

EDIT: Root maze is also a first turn drop, which this deck doesn't have a ton of.  It will almost always guarantee your opponent to waste a FoW at that, so is it really that bad?  Obviously, it helps your combo matchups and MWS deck matchups incredibly.

[sa17dk]

Can the number of Null Rods be dropped down to 2 to make room for more permission and/or draw?

[Kowal]

Budget decks go in newbie.[/color]

[timmy]

Root maze doesn't slow you down as much in the late game, but in the early game.  Having to wait til turn 3 to play a madness outlet slows you way down and gives your opponent time to draw counters off cheap card drawing.  Madness is very tempo oriented and root maze just disrupts that tempo too much.  It turns madness from aggro control into control with a ton of creatures.

As for null rod, you don't have all that much card drawing to begin with so dropping the count to 2 is a bad idea.  You will never see one when you want to.  Even with three it can be hard to find them.  But with so many decks playing all the artifact mana they can, null rod has turned into a great maindeck tempo card, cutting them off from lots of their mana.

[TheRock]

Since I think this is going in the direction of budget, I think I can add a few points to this.

Mana acceleration is absolutely HUGE.  A turn one Null Rod against combo is the best thing you could ever do.  A Mox means that you have accessibility to a turn two Flux, a turn two BtB, a turn two Wurm, a turn two operating Logic...

I would definitely look at Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal, and as already suggested, Mana Crypt.  Card disadvantage can be miniscule if your entire deck is working one turn faster.

In terms in Curiosity, that means that you are drawing one extra card since it is generally working one turn faster.  That balances out the card you pitched to get Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox working in the first place.

In terms of Root Maze, you are going to get much more explosive starts, and it's only going to make your Root Maze hurt your tempo game that much less.

Without Wonder, you'll struggle against Food Chains or R/G greatly.  You need to be able to race another aggro deck and without Wonder, it becomes much harder to do that.  Force of Will can't do everything.

Hope this helps out.

[sierra_gandalf]

if in my version i play waterfront bouncers MD, i'll drop wonders in SB, but here there isn't a lot of aggro deck, and usually you win, you have bigger beats and draw engine and counterspells (i tested against FCG, RG Beats and Sligh, and with BeB you win easily)

[TheRock]

You are right about beating the R/G and Sligh opponents (I don't know what I was thinking when I posted that, I probably wanted to say that it wouldn't be as easy against them), but I'm still not as sold with FCG because my game one is bad and that they also have 3-4 REBs in their sideboard.

But if you see almost no aggro, you don't need the Wonders.  The Bouncers are probably better.

With Deep Analysis and Gush, Frantic Search just doesn't make the cut.

[doomhed]

wow, 4 times trying to post this with my browser automatically hitting the back button is not good times

Since I was 15th at Waterbury IV, Playing U/G, I probably am expected to give some imput. I Also play this deck on a weekly basis unpowered.

My Team and I agreed with the 2 trop plan, since we came up with the same idea during our testing.  here is the current build with some explanation of card choices.

1x Lotus Petal
1x Strip Mine
2x Tropical Island
2x Green fetchland
4x Blue Fetchland
4x Wasteland
5x Forest
5x Island (you might swap 1 of each basic for yavimaya coasts in a titan heavy meta)

Blue
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Waterfront bouncer
3x Gilded Drake
3x Circular logic
3x Aquamoeba
3x Open slots

Green
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel

the open slots fluctuate between Null Rods, Echoing Truth, Annul, back to basics, and others (mostly Blue).
I would NEVER run Rootmaze in any U/G build, as your speed is your only weopon against most decks. having turn 1 blue open for annul or brainstorm or beb is important.  Sideboard is very adaptable to your metagame, as is the slots aquamoeba takes up. in  my sideboard binder right now?

Xx Energy Flux
Xx Blue Elemental Blast
Xx Hydroblast
Xx Naturalise
Xx Oxidize
Xx Ground Seal
Xx Echoing Truth
Xx Magus of the Unseen
Xx Wonder
Xx Null Rod
Xx Annul
Xx Back To basics
Xx Relic Barrier
Xx Elephant Grass
Xx Stifle
Xx Bind
Xx Gaeas Blessing
Xx Hyrkul's Recall
Xx Diplomatic Immunity
Xx Arcane Laboratory

As you can see, U/G madness is a very adaptable budget deck with all the tools to be highly competitve in any metagame.