[Deck] 4-Color Control (Updated List for changing metagame)

[Whatever Works]

4cc was one of the favorites to win last years Gencon, but the decks highest finishing was 12th (John Longo). 4cc was ruined in a metagame filled with Back to Basic, Bloodmoon, non-basic land hate, Sundering Titan, (and in my case parfeit). This change in the metagame forced almost all decks to run more basic lands (with many agreeing on the # of 5 basic Islands in many decks). These changes excluded 4cc that could not possibly fit 4+ islands into a decklist while maintaining 4 colors, and strip effects.

However, The metagame is incredibly different now then it was post Gencon. Some of the same decks are around, but the amount of non basic land hate has dropped drastically (due to its lack of reasonable decks that are affected by hate). This change and the lack of Hulk and Fish in the metagame makes it appear viable that 4cc can again become an elite deck with the necessary tweaks. Here is my newest list with explanations at the end.

4cc Version 1.34 by Kyle Leith

Mana Base: 26
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Denial/Counter Elements: 10
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

Board/Reactive Elements: 8
3 Cunning Wish
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

Broken/Search/Draw: 12
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Skeletal Scrying

Kill: 4
3 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice

Sideboard: 15
2 REB
1 BEB
1 Disenchant
1 STP
2 Fire/Ice
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

Mana Base:

The manabase has always been described as somewhat instable, but I have done my best to keep it that way. The decklist supports 2 basic Islands (and could be upped to possibly 3). This isnt alot, but is more then any of the older versions. The deck also runs 3 City of Brass in the list to try to keep the mana base smooth as possibly (especially post board), and if I could find room for a 4th I curtainly would.

The Addition of Duress:

Duress has been a key addition to the deck, and has been amazing in testing. The card is always a strong play vs. Control Slaver, TPS, Stax (if no trinisphere in play) etc.

Duress is a versatile card, and can always be sided out in situations where you arent going first or the matchup doesnt favor its use.

The Addition of Seal of Cleansing:

The addition of the card has been a very good change, and has improved the deck vs. Oath (which before was heavily focused on resolving STP). The addition of cleansing has also been usful that any deck is artifact heavy, and is also nice to have vs. Dragon, fish, FCG, or any deck running enchantments (or random decks)

The Addition of Engineered Explosives:

This card is just incredible in 4cc. Its incredibly versatile and is good vs. just about everything. Its amazing Vs. Control Slaver, but also has its uses vs. everything from Moxes, Pentavites, random aggro, to Trinisphere (not that im saying trinisphere is a likely or realistic target). It's addition has made it realistically possible to cut a STP from the maindeck with a card that I find to be much more usful vs. the entire field, and thus less narrow.

Subtractions:

The deck loses its 3rd copy of Skeletal Scrying. This loss hurts the control mirror, but is made up for with the addition of duress. The deck also loses its 2nd STP, but i havent missed it with the addition of Engineered explosives, and Seal of Cleansing. The deck has moved the copy of Fire/Ice to the board to support duress + Explosives.

Sideboard:

The sideboard is sturdy, and I am currently happy with it. However, the sideboard is not incredibly vs. Combo (perhaps i could try to fit in another Cranial Extraction (which is amazing in everything if it resolves). The sideboard is set up to bring in about 4-6 cards vs. every matchup (again fairly standard).

The board I believe could use a little work, but it currently is pretty tight and almost every wish target is neccessary, and I believe cutting a rack and ruin could hurt my stax matchup more then i could improve another matchup with a change (for example). Other cards that I have tested that didnt make the board are Engineered Plague, More REB's, Crucible Of Worlds, More Combo hate, and typical graveyard hate like Coffin Purge (which might be neccessary if Rector Trix becomes popular from good result from Hulk3Rules @ waterbury).

I have also considered putting the 2nd engineered explosives from the board into the maindeck, because I board it in vs. almost everything.

Thoughts, Comments, Ideas???

Kyle Leith

[Mike Panas]

crucible seems to be good in the deck.  Are you consistent enough with the mana base to not need it?   It also allows a crucible strip lock that gives the deck another way of winning.  Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to give this up?

[Whatever Works]

I gave it up because i dropped the 4th wasteland, and because lack of room. I am still considering trying to fit 1 crucible in the maindeck, and might try to do a change like this:

+1 Island (going to 3)
+1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Seal of Cleansing
OR
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 (?)

I cant remove a kill condition because Jesters Cap scares me now that it is being found as a 1-of in several workshop based decks.

[cane]

personally I think 4 strip effects is sufficiant to run CoW
also, with it in play, you can abuse fetchlands and don't need the CoB

to increase the potential 1ste turn CoW drop I added both mana vault and a lone dark ritual (works wonders with mind twist too   )

skeletal is a great draw engine (there comes that ritual again) but the real upside is that you can remove things from your grave
versus welders this means your already destroyed artifacts, so they can't screw you on that point

also I think orim's thunder is great, you kill an arti and destroy their welder or juggernout in the process, sweet deal

and last but certainly not least, I would also really considder stifle
there is nothing that card can't do (mindslaver, storm, memory jar, cap)

i really like the addition of duress, have been thinking about it for a long time myself, but I can't find anything to cut for it in my build, but I'm sure it can win you games

[MoxMonkey]

4CC has a GREAT mana Base thanks to the efforts of MaxxMat.  It can now run Basics and it runs them So well.  Duress is not a 4CC card.  You want to be counter productive.  You want to counter there stuff or rid it at once via Balance or EE.  I have 2 MB EE and they are SO GOOD. If you want to see the next step for 4C-C I would read up on what MaxxMat has done with the deck.  It really works and for at least me it is worth it.  I will give you my future list. (as soon as I get a second Mis-d)
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
2 City of Brass (Drop 1 For LOA I dont own or have proxie room for it -_- and having only 1 CoB is too random so ifyou have a LOA then go with that and a 4th Island =))
5 Fetch
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
4 On Color Moxen(UBWR)
1 Sol Ring

2 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1/2 Misdirection (2 is 61 cards)
1 Mind Twist

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletalk Scrying

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

Sb is depending on Your metagame but should have at least
3 REB and the Vamp Tutor.  Vamp in SB allows for an EOT Crucible or Tinker or Balance. Many say it cost to much to do this but with moxen Ring and hopefully never missing a land drop having it there will get you a win once in a while.

I really think this is the new way for 4CC and it has been testing great for me.  And Cunning Wish is not to slow its play style.    
Plus you usally will side them out games 2 and 3 =)

[onelovemachine]

One thing I'm curious about is the fact that you stuck with angels.  They seem slow and rely on white mana which does not fix your problems from gencon.  Islands allow the deck to function but not to succeed.  If all four win conditions are white it seems you can still be hosed by everything nonbasic hating.  Compared to other control decks (i.e slaver and oath) this deck is slower at winning and slower at getting started.  Twenty six mana was the correct number but it makes the deck topdeck like shit.  Hulk was a nasty matchup for 4cc but slaver isn't much better if it is at all.  I do like your addition of seals but personally I have a disdain for the angel as a win condition period and your mana doesn't function well with it.  If I'm off base please reply...

[Whatever Works]

First off I believe that Angels are the right choice for the deck, and frankly Tinker/Collosus is absolute trash in comparison. There are so many odvious reasons to run angels over Collosus to name a few:
1.) Exalted Angels have synergy with the deck. (Life gain, Mana Curve)
2.) Tinker/Collosus is unstable
3.) Collosus auto loses to Welder (which i believe is a 4-of for every Control Slaver deck).
4.) Collosus Can be bounced By Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall.
5.) If tinker doesnt resolve your in trouble.
6.) Collosus is a really clunky card (even with brainstorm)

The mana base with the large # of basic lands posted is not the direction im trying to go at all with the deck. The whole point of my list was to have enough basics to be able to essentially Cunning Wish + Answer for said hate, or to run the deck well enough to not auto lose games. This is a compromise that I am not worried about, because the metagame is currently not running Back to Basics, and I am not seeing many blood moons anywhere... This deck takes advantage of such facts in the same the 5-color dragon deck by dicemanx took advantage of the lack of hate.

[MoxMonkey]

If you have played 4CC like you say then you no not having these basics means you auto lose to any deck with 3 opening strip effects.  My mana Base that I got from Maxxmat is the way to support anwers vs anything.  It doesn't lose to non basic hate and CS with Blood Moon becomes much easyer.  As for Tinker Colossus it is really strong and gives you another way out vs random aggro.  I play in a 5proxie  almost no power store and Tinker Colossus is always the way to win.  Vs CS and other decks like that its just an extra way to bring in hate for games 2-3 and you can always kill a Mox to grab a Crucible and go for a Strip lock early with it.  I liked the old mana base with Duels but I have lost too Many games vs triple strip hand.  This mana Base helps to aid you vs an early Crucible Waste lock vs 5/3 or staxs and with that lock not working you have some time to power out a Rakc and Ruin and take control.  And if Tinker doesn't resolve your not in too much trouble only down a mox or an EE you dropped for free.   I was going to drop the Angels but was told to leave them and they are never really bad but with this mana base its a bit harder to cast but thats why you fetch out 2 Islands then the Plains  then leave fetchs sitting on the table.  I think this is how 4CC can become strong again and 5Color dragon took advantage of CS yes but will lose to many other decks packing waste and Crucible.  Dicemanx even said he lost to everything else in the field.  Why would you only want to be able to beat part of the field?  Unless you get lucky pairings thenyour going to get bad matchups.  The last thing I would like to touch on would be Colosus getting bounced.  Why would you let this happen?  Casting Tinker can be played the same way as Angel.  Have solutions in your hand and have Colossus swing in for the win.  it takes 3 turns till he wins.  1 to drop 2 to swing.  Thats not to long and you should be able to pull off the win.  Saying he gets bounced is the same thing as Angel getting bounced in the late game.  you just dont let it happen.  and if he does oh well try to get a draw spell then discard him.  The only time hes really in the way is opening hand but as a 1 of I dont see that as a problem in many games.
I Think 4CC is just becoming how you like to play it.  
Just my thoughts  give this a try and you might like it or be able to help your build out a little.

[Dnine]

I noticed that you have no red cards in the main deck, Doesn't this tell us anything?  Seems like the only reason to keep red is Rack and ruin for sb, but if you are running EE and disenchants can you still win?  has any testing been done on cutting red from 4cc?

[Revvik]

yes, and it was deemed to suck.

the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked a suck

Cutting red for mana stability didn't lend any power to the early game, and forced reliance on 1 for 1's like Disenchant, and the pro-active Duress, when Red Elemental Blast is more powerful versus one of the more powerful decks around, Control Slaver.

[WyvernSlayer]

Hi, I've been working on 4cc/3cc decks for quite some time trying to figure out the best approach thusfar.  I decided to take a 3cc design for Waterbury, which posted less than well 8/.

Deck List

7 Solomoxen
5 Fetch (3 Delta/2 Strand)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
2 Skeletal Scrying

1 Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice

1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Morphling

SB:
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
1 Disenchant
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Planar Void
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Forbidden Orchard

Pros

The Mana Base is actually what I worked on the most.   4cc/3cc has always been plagued by non-basic hate, and I tried to engineer the mana base to find a way out of Blood Moon and Back to Basics.  Sundering Titan should never hit the board, and if he does it's usually game over anyways.  I decided not to run City's of Brass to fit more basic lands, giving me the grand total of 2 Islands, and 1 Swamp and 1 Plains.  This mana base proved itself all day, as I never got locked up under either blood moon or back to basics, managing to claw  my way out of either.  This mana base only lost once, when my opponent resolved an early game Blood Moon before I got a chance to find either a basic land or a fetchland.  All other games involved me being a bit mana light, but being able to claw my way out for the win.  I chose to run a full complement of Solomoxen due to the fast pace of our current environ.  If I had my way I would have ran more accelerants, but was hard pressed to find any solid ones for the former king of decks.

All of the card choices made for the main were very valuable, crucible especially, letting me resolve into Crucible soft lock oftentimes, or Crucible/Strip after a tutor.

Vampiric was chosen over Mystical to get whatever I needed, at whatever point, often resulting in Vamp/Brainstorm/Fetch Combo.  It proved itself all day, and I was very happy with the results.

Morphling may look a bit archaic, but I was happy with the result of using him over Exalted Angel.  All versions of the deck I tested had incredible troubles flipping or playing the EA, especially in the face of non-basic hate.  I also experienced a lot of trouble keeping her in play, as she was often Lavamancered, darted twice, or swords/ edicted.  Morphling only presented me with Edict.  Case in point, Morphling won me more games than Angel.

Cons

Cunning Wish looks good on paper, and in goldfishing, but I was majorly disappointed by their performance in a high level Metagame.  They basically equated into what we've all known:  High Intensity mana cost for something you'd probably want back in your main deck for this meta.  Occasional good plays such as Ancestral, Skry, Wish Ancestral are gems, but not worth the wish.  My board was tailored to handle the 3 wishes, but I would have rather had the cards in my deck, and just tutored for them.

The Mana base was just too slow.  Even running a full complement of Solomoxen,  I was looking at an 80% chance of drawing a piece of acceleration in the early game (approximately).  I was oftentimes too slow to compete with my opponent.  I can't tell you how many matches I lost due to being behind by one "turn" on mana development.

Mana Drain ironically enough caused me a lot of problems.  I had to engineer my mana base to support double blue by turn 2 , and be able to support double blue in the face of non basic hate(hence the two basic Islands).  Mana drain was oftentimes a dead card for me in the face of Blood Moon, or early game wastelands.  

Thoughts on other designs/ adjustments.

I really missed red in this build, mostly due to Rack/Ruin, and Red Elemental Blast.  Lava dart would have been nice to have all day as well, and the occasional monkey 8P.

Enlightened tutor was a definite consideration of mine, being able to search for a much needed piece of power (sapphire, jet, pearl).  I regret not running it.

Green has been being kicked around in my head for quite some time as an addition/ replacement for certain color(s).  Green gives the addition of Pernicious Deed, Naturalize, Oxidize, as well as various other good cards.  Regrowth was also a consideration of mine, and of course Fastbond, in lieu of all the tutors that I would be running.  Green even has the possiblity of smoothing out the mana base at certain points in the game, and may even add Eternal Witness if the Mana base was developed to support it.

I really enjoyed max matt's design, and have been looking over it and various other 4cc/3cc designs.  

Thoughts anyone?

[rologa]

I have been playing 4CC since summer and I think I have a clear idea about what are the strong and the weak points of the deck. I want to write about the changes I have done to the deck and the motivations to do it. It is a little long, I hope someone can find it useful.

The mana base is one of the weakest points. It is very difficult to support 4 colours and 5 strips effects when you need to have 2 blues as soon as possible and 2 whites when you are ready to win. Firstly I though the aid of Crucibles can help to fix this problem adding another way of winning (crucible strip lock). But what I discover playing is that Crucible is very slow against a lot of decks and lot of times when it shows the board is too late to establish control with it. People has started to play with more basics and when your opponent has 2 o 3 basics and 1 or 2 moxes in play the crucible lock is not effective. It is true that if you have strip mine thinks are more easy but you have to survive while you are trying to find it.
I decided I need something more to make more stable the mana base an opted for the addition of some basics. I though that 3 islands and 1 swamp will be enough to do the work. To support it I have to cut one colour and I choose the more obvious route and cut red which only add support cards.  
With this changes I was happy with my mana base. The deck can develop is mana very well at the beginning of the match, undisturbed from opponents wastelands.
To replace the mox monkey I though about Engineered Explosives and after some test I decided the were so useful that I will play with two in the maindeck. I have found a better card which to replace the monkeys.

But I found some other problems with the deck. I lost some games after taking complete control of it because my kill conditions where extremely slow. Angels are really good against aggro but are not against combo or prison. Against control it took some games playing the aggro-control route but lately it was more difficult to surprise decks and people started to play removal that affect it. Adding the problem of the 2 whites for casting and her extreme fragility when played morphed I decided I need something else. I like the idea of the tinker colossus because it kills very fast and because colossus can protect himself against lot of decks. As I need some more finishers I change the angels for decrees. I started to test and I found colossus very useful. It is true that sometimes it is an useless card in your hand but do not happen frequently enough to be worried. The thing that really worried me is that without the Angels the skeletals starting to be  to dangerous because I cannot  have  a way to increment my life. I also note that  90% of the victories I took was using the colossus and not the decrees. Interesting thing because I only have 1 colossus and 1 tinker but 2 decrees. I decided that I need to replace the 2 decrees with other kill condition and then I though about the Platinum Angel. It fits perfectly in the deck. I can cast it via tinker or hard cast it sometimes. With it on the board I do not need to worry about my lost of life due to skeletals and it is still a good kill condition with evasion. It also aid to win matches against combo. So finally I found a good kill condition that can replace perfectly the function Exalted Angel had. Some people are worried about the goblin welder issue but I think that with 8 maindeck answer to kill them and with some hidden synergies the skeletal offers (you can retire the artifacts from the graveyard in response of a welder activation and this effect is uncounterable because is a casting cost) I don’t worry too much.

I decided also to put vampiric tutor in the main replacing one cunning because with the addition of engineered explosives and more bombs (tinker), to have it main allow to play faster, something needed against combo and fast control decks (oath).
I was very happy with my draw engine but I want to add another card upping the number to 10 cards to have more consistency. First I though about Thirst for knowledge, a good card drawer but suboptimal in this deck. It has some little synergy with colossus (another way to discard it from hand) and the quantity of artifacts in the deck (11) but not enough to worth his inclusion. Then I though about Future Sight, a good card but I little clunky. I remember when I play GAT that this card could win some matches by himself but sometimes it was impossible to cast. In a deck like this it will be more easy to cast and it can be pitched to force in the early turns. I was a little worried about his inclusion but them I though that this is keeper and what is keeper without bombs? So I added another bomb to the deck.

The thinks started to run well until I test the Stax match up. I though that with Energy Flux I can compete against it but after testing some matches I discover that I cannot. When Energy Flux is in play I take the win easily but the problem is to put it in play. If Stax player starts with a good hand of lock components is very difficult to establish a control of the board. Trinispheres and Tangle Wires are his best cards and if one of them is played in the two first turns my development was clearly affected and usually I cannot take the race. So I decided I need the red to try to stop this kind of lock at the beginning using Rack and Ruin. As I want to maintain my number of basic lands my only solution is to cut duals. I cannot cut any underground because are vital for my draw engine so the solution is to cut some tundras. As my only white cards are swords and balance I think I can reduce the number of tundras to 1 and use the 2 other slots to put 2 volcanic island. With this solution I am more confident against Stax and I can use some REB on the sideboard, the card I miss more when playing without red. My only problem now is that with only 1 tundra I cannot cast swords to plowshares reliably so I decided to cut one an use Fire/Ice for replacement. It is not the same but can be better in a lot of matches (fish, goblins, combo).

This is my actual list:

Mana Base: 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Denial/Counters: 8
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Answers: 8
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

Bombs: 5
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Future Sight
1 Tinker

Draw: 9
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying

Tutors: 3
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Kill: 2
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel

Sideboard: 15
2 REB
1 Disenchant
1 STP
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Laboratory Arcane
1 Engineered Plague
1 Annul
1 Seal of Cleansing (can be second Annul)

Any thoughts? Comments?

Roberto

PS: I try to write it the better I could but as English is my third language I am sure I make a lot of mistakes. If someone want to correct it I will be pleased. Thanks

[Nantuko Rice]

props for being bold enough to play 4cc  

sorry we didn't get to talk much at the tournament. i was interested in what you were playing this time. you obviously knew what i would be playing, hehe.

[MoxMonkey]

I am going to comment on different things I think could be changed to aid this a little.
Mana Base: 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring  (Solid, Maybe if you need more acceleration a Mana Crypt?)

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland (Fine again)

Denial/Counters: 8
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Answers: 8
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice (I would say drop 1 for the third Cunning Wish, Wish have saved me so many times)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares (If you think you need it or else a Misdirection)

Bombs: 5
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Future Sight (Dont think its good, its at best 3 blue Sorcery speed and some drain mana so you dont burn Think a Misdirection would be better to help protect Tinker)
1 Tinker

Draw: 9
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying

Tutors: 3
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor (Think this is more of a SB card so you can wish for it Early to mid-game and its Makes your 3 Wishes EOT Tutors for 4 mana i think it depends on the person I never liked this Main board.)

Kill: 2
1 Darksteel Colossus (If your going to just rely on Resolving Tinker with these guys as Win I would say Use 3-4 Wish and have vamp SB have 2 Misdiretion and hope you can win the counter war.)
1 Platinum Angel
(I think you may want a thrid way out like a Decree just so you have another way to win which isn't so mana intensive)

Vamp and future Sight then the 2 Fire/Ice and Swords  I think you may want to add 2 Misdirections or 2 Duress to help you cast Tinker without fear of losing the counter war.  I think this could be a way to win faster but not sure if its better or safer.  I presonally Love my Tinker DSC and win with that more times than Angels.  I Think you should up the wishes to 3 as they are what holds 4CC together game 1.  After that I think its really solid.  Good luck man.

[WyvernSlayer]

I was running the Tinker/Colossus/Angel combo myself for a while.  I was expecting to see a lot of Welders, and Oath/Stax hate (which as we know was correct now), so I removed them.   They were just "the suck" in lieu of those for me.

[Whatever Works]

From my original list I have made the following changes that have made the deck work alot better for me... Duress looks good on paper, and it does have its moments where it shines. However, in 4cc I find that the card was weaker than my initial testing showed. I switched them out for 2 Fire/Ice... I Then switched the 2 seal of Cleansings to the board for another Engineered Explosives, and for a Crucible of Worlds...

I dont like having all my kill conditions to be artifacts, primarily because its just awful against control slaver or anything that runs welder or rack and ruin... (essentially half the field)... If you really want to go a different kill you probably could get away with something like:
2 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice
1 Tinker
1 DSC
(+1 Maindeck Crucible of Worlds vs. curtain matchups)

[onelovemachine]

I had been playing 4cc for awhile and I realize that tnker/collossus sucks, especially against welders.  Angels aren't much of an inprovement though.  They are so much slower than the win condition of other decks and they die easily.  They have 'synergy' with scrying and life loss but since life gain is not as important as a fast clock I feel other win conditions should be adopted.  I REALLY like tinker for platz since life loss is irrelevant and it allows you to still play the powerhouse tinker.  Morphling is a faster kill and I have been testing other beaters as well.  No real new ideas other than platz is nuts.  Angels still have the problem of manabase which is also one of the more important issues than lifeloss.

[Whatever Works]

I had been playing 4cc for awhile and I realize that tnker/collossus sucks, especially against welders.  Angels aren't much of an inprovement though.  They are so much slower than the win condition of other decks and they die easily.  They have 'synergy' with scrying and life loss but since life gain is not as important as a fast clock I feel other win conditions should be adopted.  I REALLY like tinker for platz since life loss is irrelevant and it allows you to still play the powerhouse tinker.  Morphling is a faster kill and I have been testing other beaters as well.  No real new ideas other than platz is nuts.  Angels still have the problem of manabase which is also one of the more important issues than lifeloss.

I personally dont like Tinker/DSC... I used to (Pre-Gencon) when there was alot of fish, but right now i think its a bad metagame call. I am a fan of Exalted Angel, but with more STP etc. around then ever bringing up morphling can be logically argued. However, It is inferior and the only reason the card was ever used was in Europe for the 4cc mirror match when 6 of 8 decks on average were 4cc for a 2 month period.

[rologa]

MoxMonkey wrote:

1 Future Sight (Dont think its good, its at best 3 blue Sorcery speed and some drain mana so you dont burn Think a Misdirection would be better to help protect Tinker)

I agree that is quite expensive but it is awesome in the midle game, only yagwmoth's could be better. It allows you to take 2 or more card advantage per turn, something too good to ignore. But if I have to cut one card from the main I supose this is my first option.

1 Vampiric Tutor (Think this is more of a SB card so you can wish for it Early to mid-game and its Makes your 3 Wishes EOT Tutors for 4 mana i think it depends on the person I never liked this Main board.)

Before I used to play with vampiric in the board  and 3 cunnings but sometimes cunning is too slow. The problem is not to cast it, the problem is to win the counter war about it against smart opponents. People usuallly do not counter the wish at the end of turn and they wait to the choosen answer but smart opponents always counter the wish because you probably do not have enough mana to drain his counter and he can win easily the counter war. It is much more easy to protect a 1cc spell. And as a plus it can search for bombs early. It is also better against disruption because you can cast it in response to a duress and hide a bomb for the following turn.

2 Fire/Ice (I would say drop 1 for the third Cunning Wish, Wish have saved me so many times)

As I said before I think cunning wish is a little slow against some decks. There are threats that you need to answer the first or second turn or you will be in a bad position (welders, lackeys, xantids).  With 2 fire/ice, 2 explosives, 1 sword and 1 balance and cheap tutors I think I can find one answer just after the threat is in play. This is not guaranted with cunning wishes. Cheap threats need cheap answers.

Vamp and future Sight then the 2 Fire/Ice and Swords I think you may want to add 2 Misdirections or 2 Duress to help you cast Tinker without fear of losing the counter war. I think this could be a way to win faster but not sure if its better or safer.

I think that use more cards to protect the tinker is something about the style of play. I prefer to try to control the situation and only cast tinker when I am in control of the game. Only against aggro I like to cast tinker as soon as possible. Against combo you have to play the defensive role and try to not lose until your opponent as no more gas and then win quickly before he can top deck more gas. Agains control the battle is trying to outdraw your enemy not to win fast.

Whatever Works wrote:

I dont like having all my kill conditions to be artifacts, primarily because its just awful against control slaver or anything that runs welder or rack and ruin... (essentially half the field).

I agree that another kill condition is needed, perhaps a Decree of Justice, to avoid welder problems but not for the Rack and Ruin. I will be very happy is my opponent side in into them.

From the list I posted before I think I could test the replacement of the Future Sigh with 1 Decree of Justice to try to solve the problem of having only artifact finishers. Decree cannot be pitched to force but I can cycle it when not needed that is never bad.

[Covetous]

If you run Tinker, you might want to strongly consider Razormane Masticore or regular Masticore--they beat face and kill things.  Of course, it sucks when people R&R your win condition, but I probably wouldn't recommend only 'Cores for the win.  Hou could run 2 angels, 1 DSC, 1 core for your win conditions--at least the core can be hardcast if necessary.  Just a thought.

[Whatever Works]

The kill condition is all irrelevent considering the deck has an incredibly strong late game. I am much more concerned about the early game, because if you dont reach the late game you cant win. Thats why we have been testing cards like EE, Duress, Seal of Cleansing etc....

[MaxxMatt]

@WhaterverWorks.

I tried a different apporach to the deck and it seemed to function really well against a lot of tier1s.

I noticed that you run a different maindeck configuration, primarily resembling the old 4c-c.

Don't you  feel that the deck had "too many" bad/nearlybad matchups to be used with this old configuration?

I found that, despite of being able to consistently use my answers in a proper way, I have problems against those decks:

-Togs becuase of his superior draw engine.
-TPS becuase it could be one turn faster than our Drains and he is immune to Wastelands
-Oath because you can't beat a "14counters+14drawers+5greencards.dec" with 4c-c
-MonoU because you can't beat a "14counters+14drawers+4Chalicesand2Finishers.dec" with 4c-c
-Slavery when he is faster on popping up his winning chain of spells if compared with your drains.

Comparing the cons and the pros of playing this deck as it is in the past and as it is as you porposedit now, I don't see a lot of changes or improvements in the approach of you game plan against those decks.

How do you play against those decks with your build?
Why should it perform better than other ones proposed at now?



----

I noticed you put a Cranial Extraction in your side and you state that

...It wins games every time it resolved...

.. I would complete this phrase writing: "It wins games everytimes it resolvea against unprepared decks.

I noticed that, every skilled and talented players, rearrange his deck to perferctly survive to a Cranial Extration, especially post side.
This is the only reason I tried ( with goodresults ) to play it in my maindeck without putting it in the side. Opponents are more equipped to survive to a Cranial Extraction post side, rather than preside. So why not use a couple of them in you maindeck, being able to capitalize them since game one, when it is really gamebreaking?



------

Seals are a good addition and any cards you added seemed to help you in some matchups.
On the other hand, the deck lack only of a single thing.
It isn't strong enough to consistently perform well against the tier1s of the moment.

They usually draw more than you  or play more bombs than you do or win faster than you.

No Seals or E.E. or Wish or any thing used at now can win games against an Hulk.dec that resolved an early Intuition or against a TPS that resolved a Duress and a Bomb or against an Oath that combo you out as fast as he can.

How can you deal with them if not drawing and digging at least as  much as them in order to try to put as much pressure as you can?


Maxx

[Whatever Works]

I dont believe that very many players actually are prepared for Cranial Extraction. Hulk/Dragon/TPS (most)/SX(Meandeck creation) all scoop to it. For Hulk consider that in USA nobody runs the other version of tog.

Im Still trying to change my deck around to be able to handle the said matchups more effectively. I like your mana base though it appears that it might not be great for consistently getting the turn 2 mana drain.

The reason my 4cc list (which has sinse been altered) runs still a limitted # of basic lands is based on the concept that the problem cards that made 4cc become non existent are less played. Back to Basics isnt seeing play anymore, there was only 1 deck in the top 16 at waterbury that ran workshops, and Bloodmoon is seeing limited play in only a couple versions of Control slaver... This metagame gives me confidence that I can go through a seven round tournament, and not be to concerned about my mana base.

The following changes I have currently made to the deck to try and help some of the current problems...

-2 Seal of Cleansing (better in board)
-2 Duress (rather conditional especially with DA being more played)
+2 Fire/Ice
+1 EE (2 maindeck now)
+1 Crucible of Worlds

I might want to try to add a basic plains to the deck... A mountain would be worthless because I would get red from bloodmoon anyway... and black doesnt have any realistic answers that I cant get from Red/Blue Blasts.

I have been trying a version without red and without Cunning Wish and have had very possitive results with that (able to fit more basics etc.), but I find the build to lack the # of silver bullets that made this deck dominate during that 2 month stretch last year.

[MaxxMatt]

I didn't refer to your mana base until now because I realized that you played/tested/tried to revamp 4c-c basing your works on the last Waterbury results and your own local metagame. Your work showed me your great attention about the great presence of control decks and combo decks in the first 16-20 places, so I think that a "multicolored-dual-lands-based" mana base would work better than mine, that is based on the idea to survive as easily as possible to a continuous "stress" derived from the large number of MW-based decks in my gaming area.

While I think that following your manabase development or mine's mana base development is completely a metagame's choice, I think that some words should be spent to justify your last ( nostalgic ) words:

I have been trying a version without red and without Cunning Wish and have had very possitive results with that (able to fit more basics etc.), but I find the build to lack the # of silver bullets that made this deck dominate during that 2 month stretch last year.

I'm one of the ones ( evidently few remained ) players that is continually playing/testing/evolving old-control-decks. Zherbus, Carl, you and some few others seemed to think about this archetype as a "continually work in progress" but without any possibility to be played in an huge tourney, because it can't win enough to be played. This is a perfectyl good reasoning, under which the deck should be dropped in favour of the new control decks used at now ( Hulk, Slavery, OAth and so on ).

On the other hand, I think that aren't really cards' choices the issues that should be debated about the "hypotetical last winning period" of this deck.

If you put the old 4c-c into the old metagame, it seemed to me as natural as simple seeing it winning a loth.
When you play against decks that consitently lose to Drains, StPs, Wastes and Fire/Ices ( Dragons, FCG, Madness, Fishes and some old Storm.decs without basic lands ) it would be great playing a four control deck with a lot of answers and a lot of things to do in order to recover from the first ( and usually "the only" ) real opponent's attack.
This is the metagame that saw 4C-C be victoriousus against almost any decks.

IMHO, the real things to underline is not the "strenght of 4C-C" but "the complete lack" of TPS, Atog and MonoU-based decks.

THEY!!! are/were/would be the real things that should be taken into account when valuating the impact of a deck into this metagame.

While anyone was claiming about the resurrection of the "old-style-keeper-deck" thanks to the greeat work of Zherbus, the only (sad) thing that I noticed playing it and seeing it played, was that we were lucky of not facing TPS and Atogs every turn. They would be deadly for us exactly as much they were in the past.

So, when the things are shifting, trying to find a sort of "equilibrium", a deck like this can be "the winner". On the other hand, as soon as the old/good Tier1s are chosen and well established, 4C-C is always periodically de-throned.

Why?
Aren't the cards used good enough?
Aren't the players skilled enough?

No.
The deck is strong, but it cannot compete with Atogs, TPSs and Oaths.
Let me use a methapor to summarize all these words.

TPS, Atogs and Oaths can be considered our "Sistematic Errors" and the rest of the metagame could be classified as "Random Errors":

If the "Sistematic Errors" of the entire metagame are low on number ( Atogs, TPSs, Oaths, ), our pet deck ( 4C-C ) can minimize the "Random Errors" in order to consistently win against anything.
When anyone among the "players that were shifting their point of view towards some decks" decided which is good and which is bad, the number of "Sistematic Errors" would probabily become too high to let 4C-C to win again.


So, Am I saying that 4C-C isn't good anymore to be played?

No, but that there are precise things that should be done to win with it.
The most important of them would be considering maindecking hate or taking into account more cards against our "Sistematic Errors".

I can be considered "an exception" among the common players.
While I perfectly know about not playing the best deck of the moment, I would usually decide to play it whatever opponents I'm going to face.
On the other hand, my work in progress around this deck usually include the assumption of losing almost any game against skilled players playing a specific deck AND working on "minimizing the random errors" agaisnt all the other.

The job seems really simple.
Take into account of losing against Atog and try to win agaisnt all the other decks.

At now, the job is really difficult to accomplish, because almost anyone among the strong decks is starting to use the Atogs' Draw Engine. So you can't argue about losing to this portion of the field anymore because it is too huge.

On this porpouse, the deck that I played until now ( this one and recently this one ) seemed to cover better than the previous versions "my need" of winning against "the goods".

I realize that we have a different metagame and you would think the same things that I'm writing at now, maybe not before than two or three months.

On the other hand, I found that using more drawers, more "universal answers" and having a more stable mana base can let me win the same matches that I usually won in the past, but relying on a more "aggressive and consistent bombs' configuration" would give me an edge against the decks against which I usually lose.

Cards such as Cranials, CoWs, more Wishes, more accelerations, Tinker, more Pitch counters, different Drawers, Chalices or any other one that I decided to use, are here only to let me win not only during "the shifting periods during which the metagame would adapt to himself" but even now, when Togs, Tendrils and Welders are ( as they were in the past ) the best decks to play.

[Whatever Works]

I have to agree with you on almost everything you have said. The whole reason I am trying to incorperate new changes it to try and fix the bad matchups to be reasonable, but keeping the good matchups strong. Last year the only difficult matchup was Hulk, and i guess you could argue fish, and TPS... However the only matchup that I would admit to being under 50/50 would be Hulk. In that case it came down to sideboarding, luck, and playskill... GroAtog was always a nightmare matchup though...

Currently 4cc has a few things that make it playable, and others that dont:
Possitives:
-Scrying
-Synergy
-Brokeness (high card quality to card ratio)
-consistency

Negatives:
-Shaky mana base (even with several basic lands)
-Poor early game
-Cant outdraw most control decks
-Slow kill
-Severally hurt by duress (or at least from my experiences)

A few of the negative aspects of 4cc can probably be improved upon. However, you cant easily fix all of the problems.

[rologa]

@ MaxxMatt, Whatever Works:
I do not agree completely with some of your opinions. I think that the deck can be improved until be a tier 1 again presenting a hard fight against the best decks in the current metagame. One of the biggest advantages of the deck is that it can react against any threat the oponnent throw into play and that is a deck very difficult to hate.

I made some little changes to the list I posted before and I piloted it to the top 8 in a tournament with 78 people in Barcelona last saturday. The performance of the deck was very good, I only lost to TPS with some big play mistakes from my part and to MUD in the semi-finals after mulligating to 5 in the decisive game and him comboing in second turn with Metalworker and Staff of Domination combo. You can see the the results and deck lists here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21685

I basically add 2 Thirst for Knowlodge replacing 1 fire/ice and 1 Future Sight. I also add Mana Crypt as 61 card to have another artifact to discard and add more acceleration.
I think that with this version of the deck improves most of the negative points Whatever Works mentioned:
- The mana base is now very stable, with basics to cast all the important spells without fear wastelands and with some duals for the conditional spells (balance, REBs) that usually you can cast only once just after fetching the appropiate land.
- With the adding of 2 Thirst for Knowledge the engine of the deck is better, providing more card drawing and adding some synergy to the deck. You have 12 artifacts to discard to Thirst and you can fuel your graveyard to have an Skeletal active before. You add also another method to discard the always annoying Colossus.
The performance against decks with duress is improved also because you can recover more easyly after been forced to discard a good spell.
- Tinker-Colossus add a very fast kill condition and with some tutors you can put it into play fast when needed.
- Platinum Angel is the perfect compliment as a kill condition. It is a big bomb against combo and can salve your ass against fast aggro or when you are in control of the game but your Skeletals put you in a dangerous position. With the quantity of accelerants the deck has it is not difficult to cast it without Tinker when needed.

@MaxxMatt:
When you just published here your version of the Chalice Keeper I was very pleased to find that the mana base you use was practically the same I have for my version. It made me think that I was in the right direction. After seen in The Abbys the last changes you made I note that our engine is practically the same (you have 1 more Thirts instead the four Brainstorm) and our lists are each time closer. Now I only have to convince you that the Crucible is not necessary (same for the chalices)