Hidden Ankh Nullrod Stompy: Tuning up stompy

[Discozombie]

Traditional Stompy is dead.  Deader than old school suicide.  Stompy like old builds of Suicide are just not competative.  The proble is whenever people try to adapt the builds and freshen them up, everyone else suggests putting back in the same lame cards that are keeping the build down in the first place.

Stompy has to go in another direction in order to survive.  Stompy is the deck of budget builders so I am putting this in the newb forum, plus it would never be taken seriously in the other forums.  This is not a hate deck.  Hate decks focus on a few archetypes and try to be better at taking them out than the rest of the field.  This deck has tech.  Tech hurts commonly used tactics and card choices with out being heavily focused on taking out a few single archetypes.

HANS (Hidden Ankh Nullrod Stompy)

4 Hidden Guerillas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Hidden Herd
4 Scavenger Folk
4 Elvish Scrapper
4 Elvish Lyrist
4 Llanowar Elves

4 Rancor

4 Null Rod
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Rootmaze

4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
8 Forest

SB
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ground Seal
4 Choke
3 Druid Lyrist

The Whys…

Hidden Guerillas-This is type one.  Moxen are everywhere.  First turn Guerilla is pretty much Negator with no draw back.

Hidden Gibbons-with brainstorm being an integral engine component in so many decks this is a must play.  AK, counters, draw, this card just loves type 1

Hidden Herd-this is a controversial choice I know.  I have personally had great results from it.  This takes the spot of Rogue, with out the land loss drawback.  The advantage to this is same as with all the other hidden critters, the psychological impact on your opponent.  Making them second guess plays, stall out not wanting to give you beef.

Scavenger Folk/Elvish Scrapper-these are there to get rid of spheres, CotV, smokestack, etc.  I almost always drop one of these first turn.

Elvish Lyrist-oath protection.

Llanowar Elves-faster mana, good synergy with maze

Rancor-makes all those little weenies have a little more beef.  Great against smokestack, sack and recast.

Null Rod-It was either play skull clamp or go anti clamp and anti everything artifact.  Null rod has a greater impact on type one than almost any other single card

Ankh of Mishra-this is the tech!  I just love this card especially with the heavy use fetch lands.  They pay 5 life to get one land out, and with maze it will still be tapped!  Their effects are additive so two ankhs means a single fetch is 9 life.

Rootmaze-shuts down gorger and screws with welder tricks.  Stalls the hell out of fetch lands, and just generally slows down the game.  

Land Grant-with maze and ankh this is a better choice than fetches

Elvish Spirit Guide-fast mana, mid game critter

Forest- without rogue elephant, 8 lands is do able, especially with mana elves

The current board

Xantid Swarm-vs combo and control

Ground Seal-vs welder

Choke-vs control, fish

Druid Lyrist-added oath protection

comments and suggestions are of course welcome.

[CaptainBuddocks!]

Not bad. Its simple for newbs and still a whole lot of fun.

[Ape]

Don't you think that you may need a little more beef than just de Hiddenguys?

I tryed such a version of Stompy some time ago, and my version was a faster. I didn't use Mana Elves, en played with Winter Orb instead of Ankh. I also had some fast dude's to join my army of Hiddenguys. I didn't play Hidden Herd.

I didn't put the deck together after a lot of playtesting on Apprentice, but I do believe that this deck has some wickedness in it, although it will never win a tournament.

$0.02

Ape.

[Discozombie]

well what I have found out is that the usual theory of huge beef just doesn't work anymore in stompy.  The ankhs make up for the damage factor.  I think stompy has to go in a suicidesque disruption scheme.  
As I said earlier I too am a bit sketchy on the herds but I do not think that rogue is the answer either.  
The mana elves I like, I ran werebears for a bit but the mana elves are almost as good.  please post any builds you have or any modifications.  Lets really get this going, I think that mono green can be competitive.  

I considered dropping the ankhs and putting in the ground seals main, but I don't know, that seems like hate decking then, but then again welders are everywhere and the ground seals relace themselves.  

I am actually thinking about replacing the Rancors with either Winter Orbs or Ankhs.  I know that sounds insane to replace Rancors, but sometimes you have to go against conventional wisdom, in order fof something new to happen. Ok how about this instead

HANS (Hidden Ankh Nullrod Seal)

4 Hidden Guerillas
4 Hidden Gibbons  
4 Scavenger Folk
4 Elvish Scrapper
4 Elvish Lyrist
4 Werebear
4 Llanowar Elves

4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Null Rod
4 Ground Seal
4 Rootmaze

4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
8 Forest

Now lets look at the stats

Creatures-24 (32 potential)

Breakdown (assuming activation of hiddens and werebear threshhold)

5/3-4
4/4-8
2/2-4
1/1-16

Artifact removal- 8

Enchantment removal- 4

Disruptors- 16

Mana sources- 24 (16 in critters and lands)

Answers to Welder decks
Guerillas
Scavenger/Scrapper
Ground Seal
Null Rod
Rootmaze

Answers to Dragon
Ankh
Groundseal
Rootmaze
Null Rod

Answers to 4cc
Ankh
Rootmaze
Gibbons
Null Rod

more to come later...

[Aykay]

I think winter orb (as mentioned above) and Aether Vial could be viable, and have a degree of synergy.  Vial can even serve as a distraction - I run a rogue RB bastardized affinity (modulars are fun), and alot of times people will eagerly waste their burn on vials.  Just a thought.

[Ape]

I think Winter Orb (as mentioned above) and Aether Vial could be viable, and have a degree of synergy.  Vial can even serve as a distraction - I run a rogue RB bastardized affinity (modulars are fun), and a lot of times people will eagerly waste their burn on Vials.  Just a thought.

The problem with Aether Vial is the it can't put any Hidden's in play. It might be useful, but only to bring in some Scrapper's, Scavenger's or Lyrist's. Creatures that only cost one mana, and thus aren't hard to cast.

Aether Vial; Pro's & Cons:
- Can put artifact/enchantment destruction/mana elves into play at instant speed
- Creatures it brings into play can't be countered.
- Does attract attention, which gives your other enchantments and artifacts more chance to survive.
- ?

- Can't put any Hidden's in play
- Is likely to get destroyed?
- ?

Well, what I have found out is that the usual theory of huge beef just doesn't work anymore in stompy.  The Ankhs make up for the damage factor. I think stompy has to go in a suicidesque disruption scheme.

This is a good point. And this is also the reason why I think that Stompy should be playing Ankhs instead of Orbs, if you have to choose between the two of them. When possible, Stompy should play both.

I considered dropping the Ankhs and putting in the Ground Seals main, but I don't know, that seems like hate decking then, but then again Welders are everywhere and the ground seals replace themselves.

Whats wrong with hatedecking?    
I think the Ground Seals mainboard are a very good option, just because they slow down the opponent so much that you can easily get your disruption on the board. I just don't think that the Ankhs are the cards to drop from this build. As you said before, they are making up some of the damage that an original Stompy build would have dealt.

I am actually thinking about replacing the Rancors with either Winter Orbs or Ankhs.  I know that sounds insane to replace Rancors, but sometimes you have to go against conventional wisdom, in order for something new to happen..

Now that's true wisdom, my friend  
When playing Ankh's and Winter Orbs, I would recommend both Llanowar Elves and Werebears, although I don't really favor Werebear because of the 1G. Would Fyndhorn Elves work? How often are the bears 4/4? How fast does this deck have more than seven cards in its graveyard?

What about this:

HANS O., the Unexpected (Hidden Ankh Nullrod Seal Orb)

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons  
4# Scavenger Folk
2# Elvish Scrapper
4# Elvish Lyrist
4# Werebear/Fyndhorn Elves
4# Llanowar Elves

3# Winter Orb
3# Ankh of Mishra
4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide
8# Forest

I've cut out 2 Elvish Scrappers and an Ankh for 3 Winter Orbs. Maybe it is better to just cut one Scrapper and one Lyrist? How much nasty enchantments will you face in Vintage besides Oath? Maybe it's better to keep some Lyrist's in the sideboard and as much Scrapper's/Scavenger's main.

As you will see, I didn't include Aether Vial in this list. I really don't know if it's good enough, and if so, what to cut for it.

Ape.

EDIT: Some grammar and style.

[Ephraim]

I just wanted to make a quick suggestion. Don't devote eight slots to Elvish Scrapper, Scavenger Folk, Elvish Lyrist. Pack four copies of Naturalize and find more fat to fill the other four slots. Or, if it absolutely must be creature-based, use Nantuko Vigilante or Viridian Zealot. Yes, they both cost more, but they are both much more efficient. For one, they're a little bit bigger than either of the two other Elves. Sure, 2/1 and 3/2 aren't huge, but they're much better than devoting space in what should be an explosive aggro deck to 1/1 creatures. Second, they both hit artifacts and enchantments, so they consolidate the functions of the cards they're replacing. The only advantage the Lyrists and Scrappers have is that they come down first turn. I question the wisdom of devoting so much space to non-aggressive, preemptive hate, but if you'd rather have a Lyrist down first turn to handle an opponent's Oath of Druids, rather than just casting Llanowar Elves first turn and Naturalizing the Oath, but that's your judgement call. If testing bears out its effectiveness, don't let me stop you.

[Ape]

The Viridian Zealot looks nice to me, since it will not have to tap in order to destroy something.
Then again, I think that one of the greatest strenghts of this deck is the fact that it contains a lot disruptive critters. They are harder to counter, since they only cost one mana and you are likely to have more than one of them in your opening hand.

Ape.

[Discozombie]

thanks Ape

the reason I don't run the vials is simple, Null Rod.  Plus the whole deck costs 1 mana so who is worring about critter casting costs.  Well in a tighly packed deck with no draw I love to be as redundant as possible so lets break down the build and see what absolutley has to stay and what is up for debate...

First lets look at the creature package

4 Hidden Guerillas/4 Hidden Gibbons:  this is the beef of the package and serves as disruption in a way since a first turn guerilla means moxen or trinisphere give you a negator to pound their head in.  And for no other reason than brainstorm and counterspells, the gibbons are totally worth it.  I think these guys are totally on the team no debate.

4 Scavenger Folk/4 Elvish Scrapper: I really like being able to drop out these guys first turn, and unfortunately have 8 seems the only way to reliably do that.  We could go to 6 so that is still up for debate.  But I think that 6 is the absolute minimun.
 
4 Elvish Lyrist -these guys are abit a sketchy, I find them to be great against random things that come up in tourney play.  But this is definately a metagame slot that could be replaced with something else.  Zealot perhaps.  but then you loose the ability to hit oaths as early as possible. Debateable

4 Werebear-these guys are just too good, I have always sworn by them.  Extra mana and they give the deck some mid to late game.  Between the scrappers/scavengers/lyrists and land grants the graveyard fills pretty quickly.  Signed on for 5 year contract with renewal options.
 
4 Llanowar Elves-these are there for the XL factor and to aid in defending against trinisphere nonsense.  They also help get out the disruptors quicker.  If trinisphere gets restricted, these guys will probably get cut, but who knows.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide-same arguement as werebear only not has fat.  These guys are going nowhere

Disruption package

4 Ankh of Mishra- I just love these guys, especially with fetchlands, and especially in multiples.  I think that ankh is a 4 of card.  

4 Null Rod-I love these, they are like the germ warfare of type one.  They hurt so many things in type one.  I like 4 to ensure an early one, but I could see going to 3 since multiples are useless

4 Ground Seal-these are so great I love that they shut down welders and dragon, something that few budget aggro decks can do.  There draw replacement effect makes me feel much better about running them main.  4 is great, but again it could be 3

4 Rootmaze- 4 of is a must, I will not waver on that.  They shut down dragon, screw welder decks to hell, make moxen and lotus wait a turn, and the best is the effect they have on fetch lands.  

Turn One: Drop fetch, comes into play tapped.
Turn Two: Untap fetch, sac grab land, land comes into play tapped.
Turn Three: Untap land, now they can use it.
 
4 Land Grant- again these are there since fetch lands would be bad with ankh and maze.  No debate
 
8 Forest- with out rogue 8 feels pretty safe, the mana elves and bears make up for the low count.

I love winter orb and I esspecially love the interaction with rootmaze, lands are coming into play tapped and then they can only untap one per turn.  I think they could definately be in the deck, but I don't think they need to be in the main for now.  I would board them in against 4cc and fish and some other decks, but with most decks in type one running very low land counts and lots of artifact XL I think that the mazes and rods do more than enough.  I guess it is metagame dependant.  Plus choke in the sideboard shuts down fish and control better anyway.  

Again I am a firm believer in the Le Fours principle that butget aggro must run all things in 4s to ensure dead on consistancy to make up for lack of draw and brokeness.

Oath is the only truly problematic match up, unless parfait comes back.  I am not saying that this deck whipes the field but is has disruption against a lot of decks except oath.  Another possibility is to run Treetop village instead of the llanowar elves or the werebears since the coming into play tapped would be a moot point with maze anyway.  Genju of the Cedars is a possibility once Betrayers comes out.

G

Enchant Forest

2: Enchanted Forest becomes a 4/4 green Spirit creature until end of turn. It's still a land.

Whenever enchanted Forest is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the Cedars from your graveyard to your hand.

This has some fun possibilities since the land was already in play if you have 3 mana and an untapped forest you can swing with it that turn.  plus it is not vulnerable to wasteland.  

I think for now this could be about the best mix of beef and cheese.

HANS

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons
4# Scavenger Folk  
4# Elvish Scrapper
4# Viridian Zealot
4# Werebear

4# Ankh of Mishra
4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide
4# Treetop Village
8# Forest

now the potenial creature breakdown looks a bit better size wise

5/3-4
4/4-8
3/3-4
2/2-4
2/1-4
1/1-8

the genju will be an interesting possible addition once it becomes legal.

thanks again to everyone for the comments and suggestions.

[Discozombie]

Editting error become a double post!

[Ape]

I have a good feeling about your build  

Just going one step further; What to cut for the Genju? I like it already, and think it will be very strong. Once it's down you'll have a 4/4 beatstick which can't be wasted. I would like to play 4 of them.

Suggestion for HANS, post Betrayers, by Ape.

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons
4# Scavenger Folk
2# Elvish Scrapper
4# Viridian Zealot
4# Werebear

4# Ankh of Mishra
4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide
3# Treetop Village
8# Forest

OUT: 1 Treetop Village, 1 Werebear, 2 Elvish Scrapper, IN: 3 Genju of the Cedars.

I have cutted one Village and a Werebear to replace them for some bigger Beef. I have also cut two Scrappers, since the Zealots will also kill artifacts, and I don't feel that more then 10 artifact destroyers are needed here
When siding the Winter Orbs in, you might want to get the Genju's out, since they are quitte mana intensive.

The creature breakdown would be like this:

5/3 - 4
4/4 - 11
3/3 - 3
2/2 - 4
2/1 - 4
1/1 - 6

Ape.

[Discozombie]

I think that post Betrayers the tree top villages will be the ones to go

HANS (Post Betrayers)

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons
4# Scavenger Folk
4# Viridian Zealot (or Elvish Scrapper)
4# Werebear (or Fydorn Elves)
4# Llannowar Elves
4# Genju of the Cedars

4# Ankh of Mishra
4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide  
8# Forest

Dropping the bears for more mana elves may prove benefical since you want to be able to fire off the Genjus as soon as possible.  Also since forests will become possible dead critters more mana sources are always good.

[stallymcstallstall]

the ground seal should definitely be in the board.  the null rods are not as effective as you think they are.  the Genju of the Cedars should be 2 or at most 3.  trinisphere is still a big threat even with what should be 6 scrapper/scavengers and 4 zealots.  it shuts down your land grants, and you run so little land that the possibility of getting more is slim. more land or llanowars would help.

rather than offer criticism and be a T1 elitist (pronounced: asshole), i offer congrats on an excellent thought path, experience and most importantly solutions.

treetop village is sketchy, but synergistic.  i think that 2 is the better number in my opinion. i already talked about the Genju of the Cedars.  null rod is tough, but i ran cursed scroll.  don't laugh or downplay it or flame spray me, but it actually works, even with winter orb.  i used it for those last few points that stompy needed, and for occaisional creature removal.  it can get welders, aid killing juggs, kill people, slip past control.  the rancors also help with juggs and smokestack.  so here's my solution:
stallymcbeatdown

4 Hidden Guerrillas
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Scavenger Folk
2 Elvish Scrapper
4 Viridian Zealot
3 Werebear
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Ankh of Mishra
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Winter Orb
4 Root Maze
2 Genju of the Cedars
2 Rancor

4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Treetop Village
8 Forest

board:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ground Seal
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Null Rod
3 Druid Lyrist

take it try it prove me wrong.  also, if you want some draw, try skullclamp or glimpse of nature.   if you have the power, replace at least one mana dude with a mox, and a forest or another mana dude with lotus.   alright, give me your criticism.

[Discozombie]

is this the same stally that used to play at the green dragon?  

Thanks I am glad to hear your opinions, so please do not regard any of the following as flames.  

As I have said before, the problem that budget aggro decks have is lack of draw.  Therefore consistency is the key to sucess.  This deck cannot wait for moxen XL's brokeness, it must perform the same way everytime.  Known affectionately by me as the LeFours principle.  Play 4 of everything you need.  Trim mana intensive items to 3 but 2 of's destroy the consistency.  

Glimpse of nature seems good in theory, but the actual application would not work since this deck does not have gobs of mana sitting around to keep casting critters.  A deck must be built around glimpse.  

Skull clamps are an interesting idea, but then they prohibit the use of null nods. Null Rod is the anti-christ of type one.  It just hurts so many cards that are commonly played.  That is the whole function of this deck, to hinder decks that are most oftenly played in the metagame.  Nullrod is there as defense aggainst so much, keg, skull clamp, moxen, slaver, and even your cursed scroll.  Man I haven't even said cursed scroll is years, I used to love them.

Welder decks are rampant, welder is an integral part of the current type one meta, ground seal shuts down welders.  The fact that it replaces itself makes it less of an issue running maindeck.  Plus it screws with other decks too, dragon, reanimator, and surprising random jank.  For me the seals have to stay.

Surprisingly Ankh is the only card in the disruption package that I am iffy on.  I love ankh, and it messes with so many decks, esspecially ones with fetch lands.   The ankhs could be removed though they could be something else, pehaps they could be the thing removed to add the genju's.  something like this.

HANS (Post Betrayers)

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons
4# Scavenger Folk
4# Viridian Zealot
4# Werebear
4# Fyndhorn Elves
4# Llannowar Elves
4# Genju of the Cedars
 
4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide
8# Forest

SB
4# Xantid Swarm
4# Druid Lyrist      
4# Elvish Lyrst        
3# Choke

This is what I would bring to a tourney tomorrow if betrayers was legal.  The Genju's would be Ankh's if betrayers was not legal.

[Ape]

With eight mana Elves right now, why not cutting the Werebears for Ankhs? In my testing Ankhs did the damage, and Werebear practicly functioned as a mana Elf for 1G which is, ofcourse, very bad.
I only managed to reach Threshold in 15% of the games I won. When only being a stupid mana Elf for two manas, I think Werebear is the one to get sacked.

HANS, by Ape, 2005

4# Hidden Guerrillas
4# Hidden Gibbons
4# Scavenger Folk
4# Viridian Zealot
4# Fyndhorn Elves
4# Llanowar Elves
4# Genju of the Cedars

4# Null Rod
4# Ground Seal
4# Root Maze
4# Ankh of Mishra

4# Land Grant
4# Elvish Spirit Guide
8# Forest

SB
4# Xantid Swarm
4# Druid Lyrist
4# Elvish Lyrist
3# Choke?

Manas: (sideboard not included)
G: 28
1G: 8
GG: 4
2: 8


Ape.

[Discozombie]

I like it, that works for me since the genjus more than make for potential damage of the werebears.  

Sideboard is of course heavily skewed against oath since that is this decks only problematic matchup, not that it will take out everything, but oath is the only deck that it does not have any tech against.  The 3 slot is either chokes or scrappers.  

Well Ape thanks for all the ideas and help.  Lets hope some other people start some testing and hopefully we can get a tourney report!

"Ach! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!"

[Freelancer]

Before I even say anything I just want to say this; I have not tested these idea's neither have I ever played this deck... so now that's out of the way some random suggestions;

Have you considered river boa? it is 'almost' always a 2/1 regenerating unblockable critter...making it a fantastic target for rancor...wich brings me to my next point; why no rancor? it speeds up the kill quite a lot, sac's to random things, and recur's it's probably the best creature enchantment ever printed...^^ again I haven't tested so i'm just trowing out idea's/uestions...

That said I really love the hiddens although I doubt the hidden that triggers on nonbasics (can't find the name real fast:P) is a bit sub optimal...it isn't very big and because people play a LOT of basics these days it's not as usefull as the others (most people do play artifacts/instants/sorcery's)...


PS. my english might seem a bit awkward at times (like awkward wtf) but i'm from Holland so bear with me...

[Azande]

Since you are running all 8 mana elves *, would it be worth replacing a Forest with Pendelhaven even if you cannot search it with Land Grant?

*EDIT: and 4 Scavenger Folk.

[Ape]

Well Ape thanks for all the ideas and help. Lets hope some other people start some testing and hopefully we can get a tourney report!

You are welcome I hope I have this deck finished by the time of the next tourney here, although I also want to test my new GAT build.

Have you considered river boa? it is 'almost' always a 2/1 regenerating unblockable critter...making it a fantastic target for rancor...wich brings me to my next point; why no rancor? it speeds up the kill quite a lot, sac's to random things, and recur's it's probably the best creature enchantment ever printed...^^ again I haven't tested so i'm just trowing out idea's/uestions...

River Boa is a very good critter, but not really a threat unless you Rancor it. With other words; When you are playing River Boa, you should indeed also include Rancor, and there is no place for 8 other cards. You shouldn't cut on the hate-cards, and also the mana is very good now. In that way, you can only cut some monsters for a sub-optimal monster. Not a very good idea

That said I really love the hiddens although I doubt the hidden that triggers on nonbasics (can't find the name real fast:P) is a bit sub optimal...it isn't very big and because people play a LOT of basics these days it's not as usefull as the others (most people do play artifacts/instants/sorcery's)...

That is exactly the reason why we didn't include Hidden Herd.

Since you are running all 8 mana elves, would it be worth replacing a Forest with Pendelhaven even if you cannot search it with Land Grant?

Yes and no. Pendelhaven can be wasted easily, which can turn out disasterous since you pack very litte land. On the other hand, Pendelhaven can save your little critters from being destroyed. The fact that you can't fetch it with a Land Grant isn't that important, but I don't think it is worth to include it.

PS. my english might seem a bit awkward at times (like awkward wtf) but I'm from Holland so bear with me...

Who are you, and where do you live?

"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoyf!"

We are not afraid for no stupid Lhurgoyf. Let them come. Hans will eat them alive!

[Freelancer]

@ape I'm from Wierden (near almelo/enschede), my real life name is Remco Heerdink been to a couple off tourneys in almelo/hengelo...came in second once with crappy madness wich proves my *cough* expertice...

Upcoming for eindhoven: I'm taking WW someday there to win the grand prize, scheduled for two months from now...

Thx for the answers btw...If I can come up with some more i'm sure to ask... (keeps the threat alive and might actually spur some new idea's   )

[Ape]

Hi! I'm Nicander van Duijn, live in Amsterdam and play at all the in-range tourney's possible; Castricum, Leiden, Haarlem, Zaandam, Hoorn etc. I've also organized some tourney's myself in Amsterdam for semipower cards.

You should try to make this deck for Eindhoven! With the heavy powered metagmae there, a strong hate deck should be competative. The deck is actually very cheap and not hard to build.

When you still want to take WW, look at the topic right here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21198&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 .
I think that's the way to play WW nowadays.

Ape.

[Freelancer]

Maybe MAYBE i'll make it for eindhoven will certainly give some interesting tourney results... But i'll probably end up playing WW first...

As a matter fact I just posted my build over there to hopefully get some input...^^


Maybe you should some day go to eindhoven as well...than we can compete for the best budget deck... (me with WW you with HANS)

[Discozombie]

Ape:  post your results...

Freelance: I'm gonna go check out your WW build, thanks for the imput.  maybe you can run HANS also...

[Ape]

@ Discozombie: I will definitly post any results I will make with this deck! You can count on me!  

@ Freelancer: When going to Eindhoven, I think I will use one of my stronger decks. An example; my own GAT. Ofcourse, the idea is not mine, but I just love to transform a deck suiting my own playstyle, mixing styles, make small adjustments and test all cards to the max.
The thing is, I do have most of the $ <30 cards, and I'm collecting my power now. I just like to play new decks, original decks and tweaking decks to my own style. That, plus my affinity for Stompy is why I like this deck.

I think we are all doing a great job on making or transforming decks, just because this gives new food for thoughts for both budget players and casual Vintage players, like myself. I like to win, but for example if I had the cards I would never play Stax of Slaver on a tournament. I don't say netdecking or something in that direction is bad, but isn't it much cooler to tweak some deck with some cool guys you have never seen in your life, and posting your results, ideas, playstyles and so on?

Either way, I love it  

[Discozombie]

so Ape what should our next project be?  Mono white, mono red, or mono black?

[Freelancer]

My WW build is far from perfect it still has a number off choices I dislike (chant)...still its atleast going in the right direction...^^
Still I might run HANS wichever suits my preference better...^^ although I am affraid HANS would roll over and die to TPS even faster than WW...not sure though testing will reveil...^^

[Ape]

so Ape what should our next project be?  Mono white, mono red, or mono black?

I'm not sure. There is already a WW/UW topic, and I think Mono Red and Mono Black are very weak colors at the moment. Maybe we can do something like EBA.

I also want a deck where I can play In the Eye of Chaos in    
That card is evil! What would you think about a WUB deck?

although I am affraid HANS would roll over and die to TPS even faster than WW...not sure though testing will reveil

I just don't get this. Everybody is saying this, but A) How many TPS decks will you play against in a tourney? B) You can do numerous things against TPS/Combo.dec. Play Root Maze, Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, play Aura of Silence, Pyrostatic Pillar, Stifle, everything! Against Stax en MWS.dec you can play Serenity, Sacred Ground and a lot of the cards mentioned above.


Ape.

[Freelancer]

@ape that is a FANTASTIC idea...I'll test eye of chaos immediatley out in my (u)WW build...it can really rape certain control decks...

The statement about combo being a bad matchup was a bit without thought lol...but my WW build has 10 maindeck ways off pissing on combo and 4 more in the side that all come down turn 1/2 and i'm STILL loosing to combo..so yeah unless you want to pack 4/6 cards in the side just for combo you are going to get raped, also your clock is real slow (the hiddens won't be activated anytime soon)...they can just hang around while getting dealt 2/3 damage a turn and by the time they start to care go off through null rod/maze (wich is not hard without a decent clock)...these are just my experiences playing with combo/ww....*shrugs*

If you want to make a eye of chaos deck you need some solid acc. since playing it turn 3 is just going to end up countered...

[SgW]

:shock:

not a real synergy

you run only 8 forest and play 4 Genju, it will be hard to activate, won't it?

My suggestion is to cut off the Genju and play the River Boa

Don't miss the Skyshroud Elite  

[Ape]

you run only 8 forest and play 4 Genju, it will be hard to activate, won't it?

My suggestion is to cut off the Genju and play the River Boa

Don't miss the Skyshroud Elite  

No, not really. Since we play 8 eight mana elves, 4 ESG's and 4 Land Grant, we will have enough mana to activate all the Genju's we want

As for the Elite's; They are less powerfull nowadays, since everybody fears Wasteland, and thus plays basics. The River Boa's are not strong enough IMO. They need mana to survive, and are 'only' 2/1, while the Genju's are 4/4.

Ape.