Ongoing SCG Results

[Saucemaster]

I really wasn't debating and responding just to your post of why you chose to play the deck, if you made the right choice, or whether or not you should be proud that you did.

If you weren't addressing those points by responding to my original post (which made solely those points in the first place), then I fail to see how you were doing anything besides berating us for not releasing the decklist earlier, and there was already another thread for that.

How about not responding at all?  How about with a primer or at least decklist immediately following the tourny? (with all the others)  Responding without decklists, with goldfish percentages, with "just-trust-us-we've-played-this-deck lots" is sub-standard.  None of these things tells me how to play the deck or gives me advice on match analysis.

As a general rule we look down on people talking out of their ass with no decklist or evidence of their claims here at TMD.

Steve is writing a primer as we speak.  The decklist issue is covered in the other thread, but a full decklist--actually, two decklists--was released immediately after Richmond.  And none of us are attacking any of the VALID criticism this deck has received.  There's plenty of valid criticism of it, much of which is still to be made.  But "I can't make it work" doesn't count, I'm sorry.  I don't see how there's anything more to be gained by beating this issue to death, but let me say this: I posted a defense of our decision to play the deck.  Accept it, don't accept it, whatever.  In any case, you don't have to accept or deny it now, do you?  You can wait for the primer and the lists to come out, you can wait for other users to become familiar with the deck and confirm or disconfirm our goldfish rates, etc.  I'm sorry if we're simply incapable of magically imparting mastery of the deck to every TMD user instantaneously upon the close of Waterbury, but I am.  What else can I say?

Anyway, what's done is done.  The list is out now, the tournament results are in, there are threads in which to discuss the deck, there are already plenty of TMD users who are testing the deck and putting it through the ringer, and a primer is in the works and should be on SCG fairly shortly.  You may not like how we went about it, but I think our duties have been pretty much discharged.

[Smmenen]

All my argument was ever meant to demonstrate was why we played the deck in the first place and why I'm proud we did, not that we made the correct decision in doing so. It's obvious that, for a few different reasons, we didn't make the correct decision in playing the deck.

I really wasn't debating and responding just to your post of why you chose to play the deck, if you made the right choice, or whether or not you should be proud that you did.

How else would you like us to respond?

I don't know.  "Just test it" isn't a rule that I came up with.

How about not responding at all?  How about with a primer or at least decklist immediately following the tourny? (with all the others)  Responding without decklists, with goldfish percentages, with "just-trust-us-we've-played-this-deck lots" is sub-standard.  None of these things tells me how to play the deck or gives me advice on match analysis.

As a general rule we look down on people talking out of their ass with no decklist or evidence of their claims here at TMD.

EDIT:  After hitting enter then reading CHA1N5 response,  it really seems to me that the team isn't as guilty as they appear.  That being said, they may not be totally innocent but I doubt any mal-intent was intended.  I will also have to give the team the benefit of the doubt, apparently.  Perhaps I'll just wait for a primer of sorts.

Frankly, we fully intended on writing a primer and getting it out earlier.  I had the workings of a regular primer ready to go immediately - but our poor tournament performance dictated that we take an entirely different approach.

What I compeltely don't understand is the sense of entitlement that people feel at new tech.

If we had not developed a deck in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  Given the decks performance, it should probably just fall by the wayside or be useful as a theoretical tool - not a practical tournament weapon.  

I  beleive that NO-ONE on my team said ANYTHING whatsoever about the goldfish rate of the deck on these boards before questions were raised abot them.  Statements were made at the waterbury IN PERSONA - but not here.  Therefore, any imputing of goldfish statistics to my teammates is misperception.  

In fact, I have barely said 2 posts about this deck on these boards until this one.

As for witholding decklists - Rich Mattuzzio withheld his decklist for MONTHS from Canadian tournaments.  Marc Perez withheld sex for nearly two months.  We request that our list be witheld for less than a week and you all get bent out of shape.  Get off the "h8 meandeck" bandwagon and use some common sense.  We aren't the bad guys.

[everythingitouchdies]

As for witholding decklists - Rich Mattuzzio withheld his decklist for MONTHS from Canadian tournaments.  Marc Perez withheld sex for nearly two months.  We request that our list be witheld for less than a week and you all get bent out of shape.  Get off the "h8 meandeck" bandwagon and use some common sense.  We aren't the bad guys.

This is an old issue that saddens me every time I hear it. Everyone seems to have this impression that they have a special right to anything that gets played at a tournament, tested by a team, or mentioned even in casual conversation.

There is a purpose to having teams, testing decks, TEAM SECRECY, and all the things that seem to draw up so much bad blood. I am usually the one making subtle anti meandeck statements, but I am going to take an opposed approach here. I think way too often the fact that this team is a little more open, a little more active, and a little more publicly scrutinized seems to cause alot of unnecessary drama. There are alot of teams out there that do alot of work, pull alot of prize, and influence alot of metagames. And alot of those teams never post, share, or impart information.

Just because Meandeck hit alot of the bigger tournaments and actively try to innovate the game they get attacked for all sorts of reasons. If any of those reasons are valid, withholding a decklist for a week is not one of them. They have never failed to deliver the results and the lists in the past, which is more than they should even feel obligated to do. Anyone complaining about that sort of thing is really forgetting the whole purpose of playing a STRATEGY GAME, or maybe they forgot that this was a game at all. A game, NOT A BUSINESS. A team, not a VACCINE DEVELOPER. It does not hurt anyone if they never post the list or write a primer. That they do, and have done many times, is a sign that they are beneficial to the community. Show a little gratitude.

Everythingitouchdies
Ex Team Gone Fishin
Team Detroit Monsters
Team Swallowthephantomtapeworm

[Milton]

I personally really have no clue what the hell is going on here.  I read the entire thread from start to finish and here is what I figure.

1) Meandeck developed a new deck and they play it at the big tournament!
2) The deck doesn't do very well.
3) Still, someone claims a first turn kill rate, like, around 75%... after it doesn't do very well.
4) The claims that the deck has a 75% first turn kill rate persist, but it's a GOLDFISH kill rate.  
5) Methuselahn asks some good questions, such as "where is the bloody decklist"!
6) It spirals into bickering and pointless arguments about witholding info and crap that doesn't matter.

I'll say this;  Meandeck has respect on these boards.  Anyone else boasts those first turn kill ratios without a decklist and with a relatively poor tournament preformance would have their thread deleted.  

Either way, I'm glad you guys are innovating and giving it a try.  I'm sorry it didn't work out for you guys this time.  I look forward to the primer.  Good luck.

[Azhrei]

The list is posted elsewhere.

And I concur; the hype generated and the lack of concrete info makes me want to sleeve up some Doomsdays.

Man those were good times.

[Smmenen]

I personally really have no clue what the hell is going on here.  I read the entire thread from start to finish and here is what I figure.

1) Meandeck developed a new deck and they play it at the big tournament!
2) The deck doesn't do very well.
3) Still, someone claims a first turn kill rate, like, around 75%... after it doesn't do very well.
4) The claims that the deck has a 75% first turn kill rate persist, but it's a GOLDFISH kill rate.  
5) Methuselahn asks some good questions, such as "where is the bloody decklist"!
6) It spirals into bickering and pointless arguments about witholding info and crap that doesn't matter.

I'll say this;  Meandeck has respect on these boards.  Anyone else boasts those first turn kill ratios without a decklist and with a relatively poor tournament preformance would have their thread deleted.  

Either way, I'm glad you guys are innovating and giving it a try.  I'm sorry it didn't work out for you guys this time.  I look forward to the primer.  Good luck.

Thanks Milton.

If you guys want, after the primer comes out we could dump reams and reams of testing data on these boards.  Collectively we probably have over 100 pages in Microsoft Word of recorded games.  I'm not exaggerating (to my teammates - combine that one memo that had all the different test cards, and all the posts I made including everyone elses and I honestly think that if you put it in word you'd come close to 100 pages).

[Hyperion]

What I compeltely don't understand is the sense of entitlement that people feel at new tech.

...

As for witholding decklists - Rich Mattuzzio withheld his decklist for MONTHS from Canadian tournaments.  Marc Perez withheld sex for nearly two months.  We request that our list be witheld for less than a week and you all get bent out of shape.

If someone pays $20+ to play in a tournament and loses to a deck that makes T8  (either directly, by losing to the player, or indirectly, by being placed out), they're supporting that person's prize, which in a tournament like this is on the order of a couple hundred bucks. If all the people that lost didn't enter in the first place then there wouldn't be prizes to give away or tournaments to hold. By that token, I'd argue that peoples' sense of entitlement is justified.  Not just in this case, but in those other cases you mentioned too, and in any format that's recognized as sanctioned in Magic - as a matter of principle.

[Milton]

And I concur; the hype generated and the lack of concrete info makes me want to sleeve up some Doomsdays.  

Man those were good times.

gg.  The good old days.  When was that?  1999?

[Smmenen]

What I compeltely don't understand is the sense of entitlement that people feel at new tech.

...

As for witholding decklists - Rich Mattuzzio withheld his decklist for MONTHS from Canadian tournaments.  Marc Perez withheld sex for nearly two months.  We request that our list be witheld for less than a week and you all get bent out of shape.

If someone pays $20+ to play in a tournament and loses to a deck that makes T8  (either directly, by losing to the player, or indirectly, by being placed out), they're supporting that person's prize, which in a tournament like this is on the order of a couple hundred bucks. If all the people that lost didn't enter in the first place then there wouldn't be prizes to give away or tournaments to hold. By that token, I'd argue that peoples' sense of entitlement is justified.  Not just in this case, but in those other cases you mentioned too, and in any format that's recognized as sanctioned in Magic - as a matter of principle.

To a certain extent is a matter of degree.  We actually figured it would take Ray a  little while to get the lists up so there wouldn't have to be a delay at all.  But frankly, a 6 day delay is not enough to actually incur ANY HARM whatsoever.  Any assertion that there is any actual harm in this case is hyperbole.

[Hyperion]

I agree with you that there was no real harm done this time (again, other than the principle of it and the danger of it setting a precedent) and am not trying to attack that point. I simply disagree with the principle of witholding decklists in general, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, and think that if it started being carried out on a larger scale it could in fact become harmful.

[Methuselahn]

We request that our list be witheld for less than a week and you all get bent out of shape.  Get off the "h8 meandeck" bandwagon and use some common sense.  We aren't the bad guys.

It's true.  You called me out on H8ing Team Meandeck and I can't do anything other than admit that you are right.

My hatred for Team Meandeck is boundless, moreso than all the others that hate you too that you don't know about.  Often, I sit up at night wondering how I could hate you even more.  It's a wonder that I don't spontaneously combust from getting all worked up.  I would like to point out that I'm not actually on the 'H8 Meandeck bandwagon.'  I'm the mutherfuker that's pulling it!!

Sometimes my head clears a little and I try and find ways to ease the pain.  Creative writing in the forms of limericks, haikus, and rhymes and stuff often helps.  I was withholding my creations, but for some reason I feel compelled to release them to the public.    

Here's a very small sample.

Meandeck, I hate them.
Ohio too, by default.
What a dumb ass state.

Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
I hate Team Meandeck.

Meandeck likes to make bad good-looking decks,
Really, I think they do it for the fifty-dollar Starcity checks.
Adding Brainstorm to Workshop was such a profound discovery,
Even better, AKs into old Control Slavery.
These guys have really tite pecs and all the great techs.

For the team I hate:
You are Paragon rejects.
Please oh please die tks.

All of those guys suck.
Except that one guy, Hi-Val.
For the Island art.

I realize that I don't really know any of them in person.
But that doesn't matter.  
I always pray that relations will only worsen.
Because I have no common sense, only mindless chatter.

(sorry if this offended anyone, but the public demanded it!  and yes, I *AM* the whitest man alive.)

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

wuh oh

Steve said "Marc Perez withheld sex for nearly two months."

How did that make you feel?  :lol:  JK

[Saucemaster]

Sig time!  If you have any more, Methuselahn, you should create a new topic for them.  These are awesome.

[Mykeatog]

Holy Shit---

Method is the funniest man ever.

And there are very few momments in life I wish I was on Meandeck; but this is one of them. Not because I innovate, not because I am good at magic - but because I can shit talk like a champ; and they seriously need some defense right now.

[Zherbus]

The way I see it is more like this:

We make a deck, test it for 2 months, failed to make final tweaks to the SB.

We played it to a disappointing finish, but make waves among the people who saw it in action.

People bitch about us not giving them information about the deck out of a sense of entitlement.

A six days later, we give them information.

People give us shit for giving them information.

Meth writes an entertaining and sarcastic song/poem about hating Meandeck (which is clearly the cool thing to do).

METHOD makes a funny.

Myke makes fart noises.

Zherbus locks the thread.