[Article] Taking Stax To A Tournament

[Toad]

Taking Stax To A Tournament - Deckbuilding And Metagaming Guidelines

Stax has been an important part of the Vintage metagame since its introduction in early 2003. Back then, the card choices were pretty easy due to the limited amount of broken stuff. Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Meditate were indeed the only lock components available before Mirrodin for an artifact Prison deck (Winter Orb does not fit in Stax's game plan). Now, we have plenty of new tools in the form of Chalice of the Void, Thirst for Knowledge, Trinisphere and Crucible of Worlds. Nevertheless, card slots are not expendable and choices have to be made in order to have the most finely tuned build according to your metagame. This article will provide general guidelines for answering most of the questions you should ask yourself if you want to take Stax at a Vintage tournament.

Some Stax piece to help "beginners" to tweak their build in preparation of the tournament. It's also somewhat a direct answer to those who narrowingly keep saying "Meditate is terrible" and "The UR build is far better".

And please, don't limit the article to the last paragraphs where I'm posting some thoughts about the current B&R list.

Enjoy

[dandan]

Good article. My Stax is a pretty unfocussed thing, used mainly for playtesting (because I have found that contrary to what you read, Stax doesn't always start Workshop, 3sphere and indeed about half of the time goes second). I'll give it a spring(winter?)clean although I must admit I'm rarely disappointed in the Darksteel Ingot even though I use the RU version.

[Bram]

I hate you Toad. Couldn't you have posted this two days ago so I'd have been 1st instead of 3rd? ;-)

Seriously: great article. Quite informative for me as well, as I have only ever played stax on that very tournament.

[rozetta]

Nice read and a thorough explanation of choices for the two different builds, including metagame considerations and some (although there could have been a little more) about sideboarding. It's been ages since I played Stax and this article rekindled some of my interest in the deck.

The part about the B/R considerations was also well presented and very logically put.

It's been a while since I saw a Type 1 deck primer and this one was definitely worth the wait.

[dexter]

Well, you took time to write something thats good, now for some questions.

1. When did you saw a staxx that was properly built what ran draw7´s? havent seen one in a loong time. So i personally dont agree with this statement.

"Draw7s are an important part in Stax's draw engine."

Okay, you dont want us to bring up the part were you mention the b/r list, but when that part is about a page to motivate staxx from not getting any axes its kinda hard

So:

2. If you are a big fan of broken things happening in t1, why arent you speaking for an unrestriction of LED, burning wish, gush etc etc, the cards that allowed very broken things to happen? i mean okay, broken is part of t1 but all other brokenness involves restriced cards... Is this fair?

3. Were dark ritual decks wild before trinisphere? No, staxx had answers like chalice, sphere of resistence instead, pain in the ass cards for combo but not überlord cards so other decks acctually are allowed to do something round one even under sphere of resistence as an opposite to trinisphere.

Well, otherwise. peace out

EDIT: have now edited this post so Toad can understand it and will not have any lame excuses for not answering question nr 2 and 3.

[Toad]

@ Dandan,

I've always been disappointed with Darksteel Ingots, even in the 5 colour builds. It's probably a necessary evil in the 5C-Stax since you definitly need more long term ways to fix your mana base, but I have never found this to be a liability in the UR build. The 3CC is quite expensive for a mana source and I have often found the tempo loss to be extremely bad for Stax, unless Trinisphere is sitting on the board, obviously. But even then, I'd rather cast more lock components than a Darksteel Ingot.

@ Bram,

Heh. The article has been written by the end of December... I even think I mentionned It to Rudy. He should have told you, blame him ;)

@ rozetta,

I've never been a great fan of giving sideboarding considerations, since sideboards are extremely metagame dependant (I love stating the obvious!). I've read on SCG people mentionning maindeck Rack and Ruins in Stax. This is obviously a strong metagame call If you are expecting a lot of Workshop Aggro, but then you should probably go 5C-Stax with Demonic Tutor and Balance. Mogg Salvage is probably better in a UR-Stax + Slaver metagame, otherwise I'd probably go for extremely versatile stuff such as the ones mentionned in the article (Spellbombs, Explosives...).

@ Dexter,

when did u saw a staxx that was properly built what ran draw7´s?

Last time I ran Stax. And I *do* think I know how to build Stax properly. Heh.

I first thought about answering your next questions, but then reconsidered since you didn't even took time to write them properly using capital letters and such. Maybe I should give you my cellular phone number, you seem better at writing SMS than correct English.

[dexter]

@ toad

Well, even if the english isnt a 100% correct im pretty sure you can read the questions, and sorry for saying but using that i didnt write proper english is the lamest excuse ever for not answering questions and defending your point about free workshops and trinispheres. Since you cant answer should i assume

a: you want to remove all cards from the restricted list and have a really broken format?

b: you acctually realize that workshop / trinisphere / cruicble is retarded and some part of that "combo" should be restricted

[Apollyon]

I think that the point that Toad is trying to make is that if you can't be troubled to even attempt proper capitalization or punctuation, it seems like you really don't care about your post. And when you don't care about your post, why should we? In the words of Reb-_- (from IRC):

if you don't have time to use good spelling and grammar in your post, everyone else probably lacks the time to read it.

As to the answers to your question:

1) Stax really needs draw 7s. It is a draw-light deck, so a well-timed draw spell can be absolutely game-breaking, be it Meditate or Wheel. While I will be more than happy to let you disagree, I'll say this from all of my playing of the deck: Wheel is like Balance in this deck. It sits in my hand a fair amount, but when it resolves, it is usually game-breaking.

2) This is type 1, broken stuff happens. There is little to say against it. It's just that the brokenness counter-balances itself. The reason that he's not advocating unrestricting LED, Burning Wish, or Gush is because they would start to dominate metagames. There's a difference between being just broken and being format-warping. That difference is what causes people to stop playing competitive Magic and the DCI to restrict stuff.

I know that I really don't like playing games where they go "Workshop, Trinisphere" and I really don't have an answer, because I kept a hand of Mox, Mox, Academy, Sol Ring, Tinker, Ancestral, something.

3) Dark Ritual decks were weak until Scourge came around, and gifted combo decks with their best kill to date: Tendrils of Agony. Before Tendrils, there would be plays like "Ritual, Negator" or "Ritual, Hypnotic Specter", which are far less threatening (and counterable) than "Ritual, Duress, broken stuff". The Belcher decks being created in Mirrodin also add to the list of decks that rely on Dark Ritual in order to fuel very early kills. The new Meandeck Tendrils is supposed to have a goldfish rate of 75% turn 1 kills. A major part of the deck is the Dark Rituals.

It's not that we couldn't have built Meandeck Tendrils once Scourge was released, it's that we haven't had the deck-building people work on it until now.

a) No, that would be idiocy far beyond what I would expect from a full member, much less a moderator. Anyone who has played this format knows that there is more than enough brokenness even with a large restricted list.

b) Workshop/Trinisphere is game-breaking. Trinisphere is either a 2 turn Time Walk for you, unless they have Wasteland or Force of Will.

If they have Wasteland, and you dropped it off a Shop, you are both in the same boat, except that your deck could recover better, because you have Shops to cast spells, and they might not. However, if you cast it off some combination of artifact mana, even Wasting the land doesn't do very much to stop you from dropping lock components or mana-screw you.

If they have Force of Will, it becomes a Hymn to Tourach, which is still card advantage for you, especially considering how dense the threats are in your deck.

Part of the reason that people are running so many basics is to keep Wasteland from being a Time Walk under Workshop/Trinisphere. You can keep casting things with your Shop and drop Wastelands to keep them under the 3 mana threshold without the Wasteland-proof basics.

I hope that my answers help to clarify things for you, dexter.

[Toad]

Well, even if the english isnt a 100% correct im pretty sure you can read the questions, and sorry for saying but using that i didnt write proper english is the lamest excuse ever for not answering questions and defending your point about free workshops and trinispheres.

If you don't take time to properly post, using punctuation and capitalization, I won't take time to answer.

2. If you are a big fan of broken things happening in t1, why arent you speaking for an unrestriction of LED, burning wish, gush etc etc, the cards that allowed very broken things to happen? i mean okay, broken is part of t1 but all other brokenness involves restriced cards... Is this fair?

a: you want to remove all cards from the restricted list and have a really broken format?

You are totally misunderstanding my arguments. Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Gush and Trinisphere (or Mishra's Workshop / Crucible of Worlds) are on a totally different scales of power. Lion's Eye Diamond is retarded because It a free real Black Lotus ("real" as in "with no draw back in a deck designed to abuse It, that does not count towards your one-land per turn limit and produces coloured mana"). Burning Wish is dumb because a 3RB Yawgmoth's Will is still over-broken. And Gush was the center piece of what was probably the archetype that dominates the most Type One when It was legal (Gro-A-Tog).  These cards were restricted because they are intrinsically broken.

I, by no mean, what to remove all cards from the restricted list and I have never been a fan of broken things happening in T1. I have actually stopped to play Competitive Type One about 6 monthes ago because I found T1 to be extremely boring due to the inherent speed of the format.

3. Were dark ritual decks wild before trinisphere? No, staxx had answers like chalice, sphere of resistence instead, pain in the ass cards for combo but not überlord cards so other decks acctually are allowed to do something round one even under sphere of resistence as an opposite to trinisphere.

I'm surprised you don't consider Long as being an extremely broken deck. Stax has answers to Dark Ritual based decks in the form of Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistence and Trinisphere, but these decks consistently beat Stax. A competent TPS player will never have an unfavourable win-loss ratio against a non Combo-hating build of Stax. Combo > Prison. There is nothing more to say about this. Combo has strategic superiority over Prison. Prison has to cast multiple spells to beat Combo, that is usually at least Trinisphere and Smokestack. Combo has one spell to cast to beat Prison : Hurkyl's Recall.


Before Scourge, well, players were casting Phyrexian Negators out of Dark Rituals. That is just plain terrible.

b: you acctually realize that workshop / trinisphere / cruicble is retarded and some part of that "combo" should be restricted

This is a three card Combo that does not even win the game. I fail to see how this is retarded. Seriously.

Me: Island, go.
You: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere.
Me: Island, go.
You: Crucible of Worlds, whatever else.
Me: Polluted Delta, go.
You: (whatever)
Me: EOT Rack and Ruin Trinisphere and Crucible of Worlds, untap, go broken.

This happened to me a lot when testing Toadislaver post board against Stax.

Tourneys were the Workshop player always manage to resolve a first turn Trinisphere while always being on the play followed by a turn 2 Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine only happen in dreams.

[Covetous]

I keep wondering again and again when and/or why Stax is better than 5/3 or some other aggro workshop variant.  It seems to require more space for all of its lock components, few of which win the game on their own, allowing less space for threats and/or answers.  I guess I just don't see what match-ups Stax will shine in as opposed to 5/3 (for example).  I keep hearing tons of people talk about how their metagame is dominated by Stax, and I can't help but wonder if the right 5/3 deck would OWN that metagame.  Maybe I underestimate stax and/or overestimate 5/3 but I'm still interested to know what the advantages and disadvantages of each is.  

On the topic of B/R list changes, I agree that a comparison of LED/Wish/Gush to 3sphere is a retarded.  Shop-->3sphere can win games all on its own, provided that it occurs first turn by the player who plays first, against an unprepared deck.  Dark Ritual is close to the power level of LED, and I'm still not sure that it should be restricted.  Burning wish is simply stupid--if it was unrestricted, very bad things would happen.  Gush I'm less sure of because the metagame has changed completely since 4-gush GAT, but considering the utter dominance of the meta by that deck, why should we potentially let it return?  LED, in the right deck, is a black lotus which may have either a negligible disadvantage or a strong advantage (i.e. B over B).

I think that the lack of dominance of the metagame by any one deck means that no restrictions should occur.  In fact, the closest deck to dominating is control slaver, so we should be talking about restricting welder before we talk about restricting anything else (based on the nebulous "metagame dominace" criterion).  I don't think we should restrict anything because the metagame is strong, varied, healthy and still broken, but in a good, balanced way that keeps anything from being too unfair.

[dexter]

first off, like i said i personally dont feel the use for draw7´s in staxx even seen a list running 0 card drawing (except ancestrall recall and tinker) and thx to that it can run more threats. It has worked well for the guy whos been playing it so it might be an option.

@ toad

You say that led was broken because it works as black lotus 4-5 without any real drawback. Have you acctually read what workshop does?

Mishras Workshop

"T: Add 3 Mana to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play artifact spells."

This is taken straight from wotc.com, let me see now. lets compare this to black lotus

Black Lotus

"T: Sacrifice Black Lotus: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool."

Now lets analyse this. Both cards have "add 3 mana" written on it. The real lotus acctually has a drawback, you can only use it once. The Workshop you can use every turn if you want. Seems like the difference seems to be that:

"Spend this mana only to play artifact spells."

thats written on the workshop is the big difference. And with a deck that has over 76% artifacts i acctually dont see the drawback.

So do you acctually feel its ok to have black lotus number 2-5 unrestricted for workshop decks but not for say combo (with led)?

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I <3 Stax

Ive been playing it in most of the tournies that I have played in this year, and I have to say that its not hype, its THAT DAMN GOOD.

Great Article

[Toad]

I keep wondering again and again when and/or why Stax is better than 5/3 or some other aggro workshop variant.

I almost always found that a first turn Smokestack was better than a first turn Juggernaut. Same for these on turn 2 after a first turn Trinisphere.

thats written on the workshop is the big difference. And with a deck that has over 76% artifacts i acctually dont see the drawback.

So do you acctually feel its ok to have black lotus number 2-5 unrestricted for workshop decks but not for say combo (with led)?

Yes, Mishra's Workshop HAS a REAL drawback. That drawback is OFTEN a pain in the ass.

Have a look at a UR Stax build. You usually run 4 Goblin Welder, 4 Thirst for Knowledge, 1 Tinker, 1 Wheel of Fortune, 1 Timetwister and 2 Intuition (just a random draft). That is 13 cards that can't be cast out of Mishra's Workshop. 13.

Now start sideboarding. Say you want to add 4 Rack and Ruin, 2 Fire/Ice and 2 BEB in the mirror. You'll obviously cut useless stuff such as 4 Trinisphere and a couple of Chalice of the Void. And you know have 21 cards that can't be cast out of Mishra's Workshop.

I've lost a HUGE amount of games because that stupid Mishra's Wortkshop wouldn't allow me to cast my instants in hand, or my Goblin Welder.

The comparison with Lion's Eye Diamond is also totally irrelevant. You can play 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, a Black Lotus, cast Yawgmoth's Will and replay all 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and the Black Lotus on turn 1 with a Combo deck. I bet you'll have trouble casting 2 Mishra's Workshop by turn 1 with Stax.

Have you acctually read what workshop does?

So, yes, looks like I did. I've actually been playing Stax for more than 2 years now, so I've read it A LOT.

Is Stax good? YES.
Is Stax close to Tier1 status? YES.
Is It broken? NO.

[Carthain]

"Spend this mana only to play artifact spells."

thats written on the workshop is the big difference. And with a deck that has over 76% artifacts i acctually dont see the drawback.

So do you acctually feel its ok to have black lotus number 2-5 unrestricted for workshop decks but not for say combo (with led)?

You've missed the fact that the workshop costs a land-drop as well (which I believe Toad pointed out already).

Part of the reason that you see all the workshop decks with same couple cards is because playing a workshop really restricts what you can cast with it, which in turn restricts which cards you can play.  That's always the problem I've had with building workshop decks: by playing the workshops, I'm commiting myself to at least 1/2 of the deck being artifacts (that generally cost 3+, so moxes do not count).

Now compare that to having the ability to have 4 LED's.  They produce any colour like a lotus, and can be used for any spell.  Combine it with a draw or Yawg Will on the stack, and the drawback of discarding your hand is negligent.  As well, the LED mana can be used to pay for things such as Mana Leak (I've sacced the LED for that effect many times, and each time my opponent had completely forgotten that it was sitting there in plain sight because of the 'drawback').

Each card restricts what kinds of cards you want in your deck, but the workshop restricts it much more.  And to add to it, the workshop takes your land drop for the turn.

[dexter]

@cartahain

okay, so you miss your landdrop but let me ask, if Lotus Vale didnt have its drawback wouldnt you rather drop a lotus vale r1 instead of a island?

[Carthain]

okay, so you miss your landdrop but let me ask, if Lotus Vale didnt have its drawback wouldnt you rather drop a lotus vale r1 instead of a island?

Yes, but...

... how is that comparable at all?

the Lotus Vale doesn't have a restriction on the type of spells you can cast (and you can use it for things suchs as paying for mana leak).  By using it (assuming it had no drawback) you don't restrict what cards you can play at all.

All that means, is that without the drawback, the lotus vale is better than the workshop.  That's not surprising.

[Outlaw]

Dexter I believe your questions are totally irrelevant here.  We need to look at type one playable cards.

Yes Mishra's Workshop is broken
Yes first turn trinisphere is a 2 turn time walk
Yes it is a hymn to tourach that costs 3 colorless if its is forced
Yes Stax is 76% artifacts, and Mishra's Workshop is very useful
Yes I do believe Toad understands what the Workshop does

You say you either have seen or believe in stax with lower draw spells and no draw 7's in favor of more threats.  This could be potentially true but the fact is that according to you, stax is 76% artifacts while most of those artifacts are threats in general.  Stax' threats lie in it's constant ability to drop redundancy, such as it's 4 ofs.  While is also a downfall of stax, it makes expensive artifacts cheap via the workshop, and using the workshop in general destroys consistancy.  While stax is the most consistant of the workshop decks, all its expensive artifacts run into mana drains left and right and power out broken plays on your opponents turn.  I know this because I play control, and I know this because I play stax.

If trinisphere is so broken, why is it possible to get out from under it?  As Toad had said, sit on basics and fetches and pull out something to remove the trinisphere and then win.  To destroy stax you need welder superiority and if not superiority you need to try and race its clock with either more permanents or something game breaking.  

Workshop's ability to produce only mana to accelerate artifacts is a general downfall after early game.  Your opponent is playing slavery with the 16+ draw spells, you run none according to your last post.  They mana drain and force all of your business, now your primary draw spell becomes the draw step.  They win simply because they can out draw you and can drop something broken, I mean this is type one we are talking about.   All mana drain based decks need a small window in which to sneak in and win the game,  tog needs a small window to drop tog and kill you, and slavery can drain something aritrarily large and slave you eating away your entire board via your smokestacks.  

Yes Stax is good.
But Stax has somet problems with consistancy since it is relying heavily on Mishra's Black Lotus (according to yourself) @Dexter

Now the issue that 5/3 is far superior than stax, this is silly and is based upon different types of matchups.  In nearly every single case a smokestack first turn is a better play than a first turn juggernaught.

Me: Workshop, Mox, Smokestack.
You: Land, mox, go
Me: Counter on smokestack, play a land go
Your game plan is already slowed down compaired to mine.

Me: Workshop, Mox, Juggernaught
You: Land, mox, go
Me: Land, swing with Juggie you take 5.
You: Play a land, do crazy broken stuff

Smokestack is proven a better first turn play hands down, it slows your opponents gameplan and they have to deal with that smokestack before they can tend to their own game plan.

[Sauron]

Nice article.

Finally someone else backing Intuition in the U/R builds. I've had two in mine for ages and as you say Toad they can do broken things. Basically they take the place of DT and VT in that build, although with Welder and Crucible often Intuition is far more powerful.

I like a Slaver in my U/R build and haven't had trouble reaching 4-non 'Shop mana, fetch + Crucible helps here a lot I guess, as does 2x Ancient Tomb maindeck which I still like (my SB has quite a high artifact count as some staples like Rack and Ruin are not required in my meta where only I have 'Shops).

I've actually been considering adding a single Artifact land as you mentioned for the Slaver lock with Crucible, some limited playtested suggests this is very doable, since it generally only takes a single Intuition to set up. Being able to settle that lock quickly is nice since it can let you ignore board position in those games where you fail to settle the usual lock early.

[Outlaw]

I also agree with the single artifact land and mindslaver, I had been trying to work this into stax for quite awhile.  It would certainly be possible in the 2 color stax with intuition, you could achieve a hard lock very quickly while having some advantages over control slavery.

Anyone post a list with possible inclusion of mindslaver and an artifact land?

[TrixR4Kidz]

Covetous wrote:
I keep wondering again and again when and/or why Stax is better than 5/3 or some other aggro workshop variant.


I almost always found that a first turn Smokestack was better than a first turn Juggernaut. Same for these on turn 2 after a first turn Trinisphere.

Yes you are correct, a turn 1 smokestack is very much better then a turn 1 juggy, but I don't think it's fair to say stax is a better deck then 5/3, especially all that 5/3 has accomplished over the summer winning tons of major tournies, while stax is kind of getting lost on the radar.  Stax is a more broken deck, but broken doesn't always mean "good"  yes maybe a turn 1 smokestack is alot better then a juggy, but the real turn 1 play's you have to be watching for are turn 1 trinisphere and turn 1 crucibles, they are both very common in each deck, and I think after the turn 1 trinisphere, a juggernaut is probably your best bet.  now they HAVE to answer it while he's beating face and your disrupting their game.  A smokestack is slower, and will eventually eat itself if a crucible is not on the table.

Stax is a very good deck, but it struggles with consistancy issues as always, I can't ever see this deck consistantly winning big tournies anymore like 5/3 can, because of that issue.  well all know stax has fun times against slavery and a welder on the board, and while this trend in type 1 is still strong, I think it makes stax look a little weaker.  I also disagree about the draw 7's being a huge part of stax, I think 1-2 draw 7's are enough in stax, but I wouldn't say it's major.

Now don't get me wrong, Stax is an amazing deck, It's very powerful, and is capable of taking a major tournament, but alot of the major popular decks currently floating around in the meta, I don't see it happening

[Moxlotus]

@cartahain

okay, so you miss your landdrop but let me ask, if Lotus Vale didnt have its drawback wouldnt you rather drop a lotus vale r1 instead of a island?

I'm pretty sure Lotus Vale produces colored mana and can be used to cast any spell in your deck as opposed to Workshop which can't.  

I notice you are from Sweden.  Why haven't you guys been playing Italian Tog?  Italy seems to be infested with Stax and their Tog version still repeatedly make multiple Top 8 appearances.  TPS does the same thing.  CS isn't that bad against stax either.  What do you guys actually play that loses to Stax all the time?

If trinisphere is so broken, why is it possible to get out from under it? As Toad had said, sit on basics and fetches and pull out something to remove the trinisphere and then win.

Quoted for truthery.  Tog and to a lesser degree TPS laugh at Stax.

[dexter]

@moxlotus

Tog gets killed by staxx , thats a fact, thats why why everybody stopped playing tog here. The last tog list ran up to 6-7 basics and still got crushed, the matchup is to bad no matter who you twist and turn it.

TPS has a better chance due to all maindeck hate (the lists circulating here have 3-4 maindeck rebuild, and some extra hurkyls in the sideboard) but still EVEN with all that hate in maindeck and all basics TPS matchup against UR staxx still is in the favor of the staxx player since staxx has so many antikombo cards, Prismatic staxx on the other side gets runower by TPS from what ive heard through romours.

To answer what we play then:

TPS, Staxx, C-Slaver, Oath

The only deck i played lately that i feel have a good matchup against staxx is dragon and that was just because my decklist had 4 esg i maindeck so no matter what lock (except chalice for 2 AND 3) the esg just went under the trinisphere and won that matchup X times.

Trust me, we tried every answer to staxx and the deck still rules all the major tuornaments were the staxx players show up, i know several players who has stopped playing t1 just because trinisphere. Trinisphere + Workshop is a combo that u can play R1 about 40% of the time and if it resolves its a FTK 9 outta 10 games if you had a normal hand for staxx.

And for you who whines about staxx being inconsistent. I played staxx alot the last year, some tournaments and some random game testing etc and the deck is right now one of the most consistent decks around, right next to dragon.

[Covetous]

I guess my real question about the 5/3 vs. Stax thing was basically--why hasn't Stax been putting up the numbers that 5/3 has (specifically in the US of A)?  Is it simply that nobody plays it here, or is there something fundamentally better about one deck or the other?  

I was trying to suggest that 5/3 might be better because it has more space to run cards like Seal of cleansing and STP, which are hard (not impossible) to run in Stax because you are forced to run so many lock components and lands instead of win conditions and utility removal.  My point was that, although turn 1 stack is in fact really nasty, it doesn't move your opponent from 20 to zero.  

I think that the lone mindslaver in Stax is awesome, a natural fit because you already run 4x crucible and fitting in a lone Citadel isn't that hard if you want to infinitely slaver-lock.  But, infini-slaving isn't necessary because if you slave even once with lock components on board, you should probably win.  I have been running Trike in my stax build for a while--he's so good I would consider running 2.

[Moxlotus]

Tog gets killed by staxx , thats a fact, thats why why everybody stopped playing tog here. The last tog list ran up to 6-7 basics and still got crushed, the matchup is to bad no matter who you twist and turn it.

The country of Italy seems to disagree with you.  Old Tog decks got their ass kicked by Stax.  UB/r with 4 cunning Wish and E.E. top 8 in multiples in every tournament they have.  And they have tons of Stax decks as well.  I suggest looking at their builds.  A properly built 7/10 also gives Stax fits.

But maybe the best players in italy are playing Tog.  Could be true that they can win just because they are that good.  Maybe it has nothing to do with the deck,

But maybe the best players in Sweden are playing Stax and they could be winning just because they are that good.  Maybe it has nothing to do with the deck.

Staxx can't be the best deck ever or even too powerful if 1996 Keeper beats it.

[Marton]

Is it me or my many months of playing U/R stax without thirst for knowledge (because my meta garantees that welder won't stay in play) led me to change my build of stax to only include 3x goblin welder. Every single stax list I have read includes 4x goblin welder, but I simply cannot understand it's importance if you don't play with thirst for knowledge. I can understand that it's good for welder tricks and turning smokestacks/tangle wire counters to your advantage, but usually at this point the game is mostly decided. When I play stax I tend to avoid a first turn welder (remember its a non-thirst version), since it is virtually useless without an artifact in the graveyard. It can block lackeys, but other than that I generally don't play a welder turn-1. Most of the time welders are there to maintain the lock, and as a result are a mid-game card, which is why I went down to 3 welder, which I never regretted. I also put the 4th welder in my side against expected artifact hate. I usually prefer a draw-7 instead of a welder, since it more-or-less results in tutoring for a welder, and more.

Has anybody else came to the same end as me? is there something I am doing incorrectly? I would be glad to know.

[Toad]

Dexter, you are WAY off on your Stax's matchups analysis. UBr Tog has a good matchup against Stax, regardless of the Stax build you are using (UR or 5C). Dragon has a good matchup too, even if the matchup gets closer for the 5C build (Seal of Cleansing). Drain Slaver has a good matchup too. And a good TPS player does not lose to Stax.

And Stax is highly unconsistant, even if Crucible of Worlds helps a lot now.

Trinisphere + Workshop is a combo that u can play R1 about 40% of the time and if it resolves its a FTK 9 outta 10 games if you had a normal hand for staxx.

That is so wrong. Chances to get Trinisphere in hand : 40%. Chances that your opponent does not get Force of Will : 60%. You are already under 40%. And I'm not taking into account all the hand with Trinisphere but without mana to cast it. I'm neither taking into account the broken first turn Trinisphere when on the draw when your opponent has dropped his 2 Moxen and a Sol Ring.

Seriously, play the deck someday, watch It being played against good players who knows what they are doing, and THEN come back posting in this thread. Until then, try to refrain yourself from posting there since most of your posts are terrible.

I think that the lone mindslaver in Stax is awesome

Mindslaver is indeed strong in Stax (metagame calls though, I would not run it in a metagame infested with Aggro and Aggro Control decks), but my playstyle (aggressive on mana and lock components) makes that I hardly have the mana needed to cast/activate It unless I'm already winning. And I'm not sure I would Tinker for It over, say, Karn.

I guess my real question about the 5/3 vs. Stax thing was basically--why hasn't Stax been putting up the numbers that 5/3 has (specifically in the US of A)? Is it simply that nobody plays it here, or is there something fundamentally better about one deck or the other?

American tourneys have a really high concentration of Workshop Aggro decks. First turn Juggernaut is far worse than first turn FOW to Stax. This probably explains why Stax is not showing there. Nevertheless, I found in testing that Stax has better matchups overall against many decks, including most of the top ones.

[Bram]

TPS has a better chance due to all maindeck hate (the lists circulating here have 3-4 maindeck rebuild, and some extra hurkyls in the sideboard) but still EVEN with all that hate in maindeck and all basics TPS matchup against UR staxx still is in the favor of the staxx player since staxx has so many antikombo cards

This is horribly untrue. TPS is a bad matchup for Stax; quite possibly the worst there is. It can just sit on its Rebuild for eternity while it builds up an 'immediate win' hand. Heck, one could even Mystical of Vampiric for Rebuild, put it on the top, float 2U during upkeep before you need to sack your mana base to a Smokestack, draw Rebuild on draw step, play Rebuild off the mana you floated and win right then and there. I've pulled it off many times myself and I've seen it done to me whan I played Stax. And you only need 2 maindeck Rebuilds to pull this off consistently (not 3 or 4 like you mentioned).

Don't take this the wrong way, but the combo players in your meta seem to be lacking certain skills. This matchup is NOT favorable to the Stax player because ALL your maindeck hate (and I'll grant you there's a lot of it) consists of artifacts. Unless you side in crap like Arcane Lab, you're pretty much done for, barring an insane opening.

Trust me, we tried every answer to staxx and the deck still rules all the major tuornaments were the staxx players show up, i know several players who has stopped playing t1 just because trinisphere.

We've been over this before. It's insane. A deck devoted to hating out Stax WILL succeed. And if every good player plays Stax, it's worthwile playing hate.dec. Either you're not trying hard enough, or you're going about it the wrong way.

[Covetous]

Toad--
It sounded like you said 5/3 is a bad matchup for stax (you said turn 1 juggs is scarier than turn 1 FoW).  Does that support my suggestion before that a well-build 5/3 deck could dominate a stax-laden metagame (hint hint Dexter)?  

I certainly can see how Stax can be better than 5/3 in many situations (especially the stack/jugg comparison).  My problem with Stax has always been that many of its lock components aren't that strong on their own (specifically tangle wire).  If you're in an even race with your opponent, and you both have expended all of your resources to deal with each other, and you topdeck tangle wire, you are cooked while topdecking a juggy can win.  Maybe that's an unlikely and/or irrelevant comparison, but I think it's a legitimate weakness.

Slaver certainly can be a powerful weapon for stax in a metagame which isn't aggro-based (or combo-based I suppose).  I don't think I support it in a 5c build, but if you used it in a UR build and used intuitions rather than draw-7's it could be very strong against many matchups.  The problem of course is what Toad already said--finding 4 non-workshop mana can be challenging, especially since you probably won't be able to run ancient tomb because you will have to run darksteel citadel.

[Toad]

Tools and Tubbies is probably the best deck to run in a metagame where Stax is rampant, since you can easily drop Juggernauts on turn 1 and have a great access to utility creatures through Survival of the Fittest (Goblin Welder, Uktabi Oran-Utan, Viridian Shaman, etc...). You can also run a big amount of basic lands to face Wasteland recursion and reliably cast Artifact Mutation post board.

I'd actually run TNT before UR Stacker or 5C Workshop Aggro variants. Better mana base, more Welders and Artifact Mutation.

[Marton]

i would just tip in that each time i play stax against tnt, its pentavus that killed me. survival makes it too easy to get that pentavus, and once it gets there, there's nothing that you can do other than mindslaver, if you play it.