Serious Deck Discussion: Fluctuator, a possible contender??

[twault]

My all time favorite deck is Fluctuator. For those of you not familiar with how it works, here is a sample decklist (I do not claim this to be mine or the best list by any stretch of the imagination):

24x Cycling creatures that cycle for 2 mana
 4x Fluctuator
 4x Songs of the Damned
 4x Drain Life
 5x Solomoxen
 1 Black Lotus
18 Cycling Lands

The basic idea is to get Fluctuator out as soon as possible, cycle like mad until 22 creatures hit the graveyard, play songs & drain life to win.

There is probably a more effective win condition as well, so please discuss what you think is the better way to win.

My problems with the deck are as such:

1) I can't get Fluctuator in my opening hand, or I can't cast it due to the cycling lands that CIP tapped.

2) Sometimes I get a hand of non-cycling cards, so I stall and cannot cycle.

3) Getting my Win before turn 3. THis deck can consistently win on turn 3 with mulliganing (provided there's no disruption). I would like to win on turn 1.

4) A back-up plan for FOW, Duress, Goblin Welder, Trinisphere, etc.

5) Is there a better win condition?


Possible fixers

1) I need a way to make room for tutors, so that I can get what I need.

2) I need a card-drawing engine of some type.

3) I need to fix the mana base by adding Dark Rituals (I know this must be mandatory). I was thinking along the lines of experimenting with the Belcher mana base...any suggestions? (I was thinking land grant, bayous, dark rits, etc.)

4) I was thinking along the lines of Yawgmoth's Will or Regrowth?

5) What's the best way to go here?

Feel free to discuss any suggestions and valid points about this deck. I do feel this deck is viable IF it can consistenly win on turn 1. The question is, can this deck be as consistent as Belcher for turn 1 wins.

[timmy]

I played a deck like this a while ago.

Anyway the best things that you left out are...

Dark Ritual: Insane in any combo deck.  Gets fluctuator and mana for a songs on first turn.

Mana crypt: first turn fluctuator and pays for a cycling when digging for a fluctuator.

Sol ring: same as crypt

Lotus petal: provides early mana or mana when your trying to go off.

You also need some card drawing, or you cyclers will eventually dry up.

The best I have found are...

Infernal contract: 4 cards for 3 mana and some life, awesome deal in this combo deck.

Vampy/Demy  tutor: finds fluctuator or kill

Reaping the graves:  Gets all your cycled critters back

Yawgs will:  A given in almost all combo decks,  lets you recast rituals and songs.

Finally I have found Tendrils of Agony to be a much better kill condition, it allows you to go off with less mana and its not as easily disrupted.

I have tried to fit 4 duress into the MD but with little luck.  You need at least 18 cycling dudes and 8 cycling lands along with 4-8 other lands.

[bedafile]

I feel there's a science to a fluctuator deck, you need to contruct the deck with only 6-7 playable cards depending on when you go. For clarification:

1 Drain Life
1 Songs of the Damned
4 Fluctuator
1 Black Lotus

Then fill the rest with Urza block cyclers.

If you choose to draw you can consistanly win on second turn providing you find a Fluctuator and the colorless cycling land - Blasted Landscape. Or even a first turn win with Black Lotus cracking it for BBB.

For example:

Turn 1 - Choose to draw. Play a "comes in to play tapped cycling land" such as Slippery Karst.  

Turn 2 - Play a Blasted Landscape tap both lands for G1 and cast Fluctuator - draw until you want to stop and cast your artifact mana, songs of the damned, and Drain Life for the win.

***This deck was inspired by my friend Craig who mastered quite a few turn 1 and turn 2 kills on me - incase he's reading.***

However there is one huge problem, any disruption owns this deck. Force, Duress, Daze, Drain, Mana Leak, etc.

A better philosophy on a fluctuator deck would be to use Living Death to return all those peeps who went to the yard. But alas I don't know much about that build.
John

[the boogie man]

That  living death one looks really interesting. The only problem that I can see with that is the waiting a turn to do anything, unless you time walked and swung, but I doubt that that would happen.

    But with the lands, I only run like 3 polluted delta, 2 underground sea, 4 blasted landscape, and 2 blac/blue cycler lands. that will allow you to run ancestral recall, walk, and all kinds of draw/tutors. the reaping of the graves allows you to  cycle 1 creature as much as your storm count is, just make sure and cycle in response.

[True Lies Ownz]

Finally I have found Tendrils of Agony to be a much better kill condition, it allows you to go off with less mana and its not as easily disrupted.
.

cant tendrils

I think what you meant to say was, "Cycling doesn't count toward the Storm count because you didn't actually play the spell." However, your succinct version did have the virtue of being inscrutable. Please be more clear in future posts. -Dr. Sylvan[/color]

[Machinus]

Blasted Landscape has always been one of my favorite cards, and it is really good in this deck. However, this deck does need some kind of disruption in order to protect its combo.

Tendrils is probably a better idea than drain life since it can't be countered, and this deck should be able to play nine spells, with the rituals (maybe Cabal also?). Of course, this makes you wonder why you don't just play TPS? But, for Fluctuator combo:

Miscalculation and Rebuild are excellent. In addition to providing counter/bounce/storm, they cycle for 2 and are blue, which means they pitch to FoW. Rescind is too expensive, but there are a few other good cyclers.

The deck is probably going to be either U/B or 5-color.

The broken cards are needed to make this deck go off, so add walk, ancestral, tinker (of course jar as well, but it can also fetch fluctutator) and will. There should also already be demonic tutor, demonic consultation, and vampiric tutor. Brainstorms go really well with these cards, so consider whether or not its worth it to add them. Necro?

A full set of artifact acceleration is needed. That is 8 mana slots. Add 4 landscape, 4 land grant, 4 dark ritual, and some combination of tropical islands and bayous. Perhaps a couple of fetchies and an underground as well. I am not sure what else should go here, maybe chromatic sphere? If you add spheres, a 9th mana slot is available in Mana Vailt, since it combos really well with the spheres, rebuilds, and tinker.

As for a draw engine besides the broken/utility already mentioned, Night's Whisper isn't too bad, but if you are already running necro, fetches, crypt, and FoW, it could add up fast like in suicide GAT. In addition, duress is probably the best disruption besides that already mentioned for this deck. If more brokenness gets added, Unmask might not be too bad.

[twault]

Bedafile: Kudos to your friend Craig for making a very fun deck. The deck I first played was very similar to his (I used Lotus Petal instead of Black Lotus). It was a one-shot win or lose deal, but it rarely won me games first turn...cause I didn't have the Lotus then.

I want to build off the original creation and get something more stable that can withstand a little bit of disruption. I'm going to playtest this build and see how it goldfishes.

Deleted deck listing

[policehq]

With 24 cycling creatures, I imagine it would be LOTS easier to win with Living Death than with Drain Life. Running into multiple Songs of the Damned means that you're going to be unable to cycle enough cards (if you have 2 cyclers, one runs into a Drain Life, one into a Songs). Living Death slows the kill down to turn 2, but it is much more reliable in my opinion, as you will only need approximately six/seven creatures in the graveyard.

I'm not sure with Land Grant that you especially need 5 forests to fetch. It would help your cycling chain a lot not to play as many.

Barry

[timmy]

That looks like a really solid list.

However you really want 4 songs.  Also I would run at least 3 Reaping the graves.

Memory Jar seems clunky and too expensive, I would cut it for an ancestral recall.

So here is what I would do.

-2 cycling critters
-1 land grant
-1 memory jar
-2 drain life

+2 songs
+1 reaping the graves
+1 Ancestral recall
+1 mana crypt/sol ring  (so you have both)
+1 tendrils of agony

If you play the deck you will realize how much easier it is to ramp up to 10 spells than it is to get 21 black mana.  Before you play drain life please play the deck and realize how much better tendrils is.
On a final not, due to the lack of cycling lands I would recomend 2 infernal contracts.  

so.

-1 land grant
-1 duress

+2 Infernal contract

[twault]

With 24 cycling creatures, I imagine it would be LOTS easier to win with Living Death than with Drain Life. Running into multiple Songs of the Damned means that you're going to be unable to cycle enough cards (if you have 2 cyclers, one runs into a Drain Life, one into a Songs). Living Death slows the kill down to turn 2, but it is much more reliable in my opinion, as you will only need approximately six/seven creatures in the graveyard.

I'm not sure with Land Grant that you especially need 5 forests to fetch. It would help your cycling chain a lot not to play as many.

Barry

The thing with Living Death is that it slows the kill down, as you said. Not to mention, for 5 mana, I'd rather cast Yawgmoth's Bargain and draw 15 cards. That will ensure total cycling. The problem is getting the 5 mana on the first turn either way. I do see what you are saying, but I just don't see Living Death as a viable option.

I suppose I could drop the tropical. I'm fetching Bayous for black mana, which is what I need. Plus, Land Grant ups the storm count as basically a free spell.

[twault]

With 24 cycling creatures, I imagine it would be LOTS easier to win with Living Death than with Drain Life. Running into multiple Songs of the Damned means that you're going to be unable to cycle enough cards (if you have 2 cyclers, one runs into a Drain Life, one into a Songs). Living Death slows the kill down to turn 2, but it is much more reliable in my opinion, as you will only need approximately six/seven creatures in the graveyard.

I'm not sure with Land Grant that you especially need 5 forests to fetch. It would help your cycling chain a lot not to play as many.

Barry

The thing with Living Death is that it slows the kill down, as you said. Not to mention, for 5 mana, I'd rather cast Yawgmoth's Bargain and draw 15 cards. That will ensure total cycling. The problem is getting the 5 mana on the first turn either way. I do see what you are saying, but I just don't see Living Death as a viable option.

I suppose I could drop the tropical. I'm fetching Bayous for black mana, which is what I need. Plus, Land Grant ups the storm count as basically a free spell.

[policehq]

With 24 cycling creatures, I imagine it would be LOTS easier to win with Living Death than with Drain Life. Running into multiple Songs of the Damned means that you're going to be unable to cycle enough cards (if you have 2 cyclers, one runs into a Drain Life, one into a Songs). Living Death slows the kill down to turn 2, but it is much more reliable in my opinion, as you will only need approximately six/seven creatures in the graveyard.

I'm not sure with Land Grant that you especially need 5 forests to fetch. It would help your cycling chain a lot not to play as many.

Barry

The thing with Living Death is that it slows the kill down, as you said. Not to mention, for 5 mana, I'd rather cast Yawgmoth's Bargain and draw 15 cards. That will ensure total cycling. The problem is getting the 5 mana on the first turn either way. I do see what you are saying, but I just don't see Living Death as a viable option.

I suppose I could drop the tropical. I'm fetching Bayous for black mana, which is what I need. Plus, Land Grant ups the storm count as basically a free spell.

You have read what has been posted in the thread earlier, though, about how cycling is not casting a spell, right? Tendrils of Agony generally won't be for a very large amount.

Barry

[sa17dk]

Looking at your decklists, exactly how in the world are you going to get a storm count past 3?

[Frappie]

How the hell are you casting Yawg will and drawing 15?

Cycling is  (2) Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.
Can't cycle it if its in the graveyard people.

[Ape]

He mentioned Yawgmoth's Bargain, not Yawgmoth's Will  

Ape.

[Jacob Orlove]

Cloud of Faeries has the "free spell"errata. If you play it out of the graveyard, your lands will not untap.

[pellucidity]

It's one more card that takes up a spot for cycling, but what about running 2 Concordant Crossroads (and maybe 4 Spirit Guides)? That way at least the Living Death kill isn't a delayed turn...

[twault]

With 24 cycling creatures, I imagine it would be LOTS easier to win with Living Death than with Drain Life. Running into multiple Songs of the Damned means that you're going to be unable to cycle enough cards (if you have 2 cyclers, one runs into a Drain Life, one into a Songs). Living Death slows the kill down to turn 2, but it is much more reliable in my opinion, as you will only need approximately six/seven creatures in the graveyard.

I'm not sure with Land Grant that you especially need 5 forests to fetch. It would help your cycling chain a lot not to play as many.

Barry

The thing with Living Death is that it slows the kill down, as you said. Not to mention, for 5 mana, I'd rather cast Yawgmoth's Bargain and draw 15 cards. That will ensure total cycling. The problem is getting the 5 mana on the first turn either way. I do see what you are saying, but I just don't see Living Death as a viable option.

I suppose I could drop the tropical. I'm fetching Bayous for black mana, which is what I need. Plus, Land Grant ups the storm count as basically a free spell.

You have read what has been posted in the thread earlier, though, about how cycling is not casting a spell, right? Tendrils of Agony generally won't be for a very large amount.

Barry

Yes, I know that. When you cycle your cards you'll be left with a lot of cards that play for 0 or 1 cost. When you play Songs, you should have a lot of mana to cast them.

The storm count can be upped quickly if you play a few spells and play Yawgmoth's Will. Remember Cloud of Faeries...

[twault]

How the hell are you casting Yawg will and drawing 15?

Cycling is  (2) Discard this card from your hand: Draw a card.
Can't cycle it if its in the graveyard people.

I said Yawgmoth's Bargain.

You can use Will to get those cards back and cycle them again to draw another card, but then the cycled card is removed from the game.

[twault]

Cloud of Faeries has the "free spell"errata. If you play it out of the graveyard, your lands will not untap.

Guess I messed that one up. I assumed since it said that you played cards from the graveyard as though they were in your hand that the "free spell" errata didn't apply.

Tendrills doesn't look as viable for a win condition as it did before. I don't really like the Living Death route either...

I'm leaning towards my own win condition, but it requires adding red....

Feel free to post decklists that you guys have tried that CAN win turn 1 with consistency. I'm still searching for ideas...

[o]

There is one card that could really help out this deck a lot: Haunting Misery.

With this, we combine the effect of song and drain into one card, meaning we need only this and a black lotus to win.

The deck I would play would look something like:

5 Mox
4 Fluctuators
1 Lotus
1 Misery
20 cycle lands
29 Cycling critters

though I'm not so sure about the moxen.  They allow for first turn wins, but can often clog up your hand when you try to go off.  Second turn wins are quite easy and frequent with this deck, and 1st turns happen some times.  Basically keep any hand with a fluctuator.

[SneakAttack]

Ok i personally have a fluctuator deck.  I have been playing it for a year now i believe.  From my playing of the deck, which wasnt agaisnt a field of Type 1 deck, Mainly used in casual play.

I feel the deck needs "memory jar" it is another draw 7 and it helps the combo continue when it stalls. You can easily play it off "Songs of the damned" My fluctuator deck has performed much better with a memory jar in the deck.

Also when creating the deck, I had only like 28 cyclers. It is horrbily incosistent and stalls constantly if you dont run alot of cyclers. I now run 27 cycling creatures and 17 cycling lands. That leaves me with 16 non cycling cards. And depending on your Kill usually leaves you with more open room.

Usually having a land Like ancient tomb or City of Traitors is good for this deck. Especially since all you need is a Fluctator on the board for the combo to start.

But i will get to my point. I personally dont think this deck.  Just meaning fluctuator in general wont be able to survive at all. It could possilby pick up a win or two. But it will be so inconsistent. So many cards can kill this deck really quickly. Chalice for 1 will knock out all dark rits, songs of the damneds. Not only that. This deck can only really run 4 disruption cards. Without losing consistency.

Everything i just said was my opinion. You can take it if you want too. But when i created my own fluctuator deck. I find my chances of winning after turn 2 go down.  And any disruption like a duress, or "force of will" will stop this deck for many turns. So in my final words. I say that this deck will most likely never perform well in a tournament cause of the low % of first turn kills, and low disruption count. It is a fun deck to play , but i dont believe it is a very competitive deck.

[twault]

Well, never mind the previous list that I posted earlier as an idea, as I have scrapped the list I was working on for the time being. I'm back to the drawing board. I'm just waiting to somehow make this a ridiculously broken deck. I do feel there is potential, just not sure on what I'm looking for.

Haunting Misery is a sweet win condition, but it's a one-shot deal. Memory Jar does work nice, but it is a bit mana-intensive and takes up a non-cycling spot. I'd rather take Bargain.

I have a few ideas in mind, but I'll wait until I get some results before posting an update. In the meantime, continue to post ideas.

Yes, this is an inconsistent deck, but that's why I'm working on it. I feel that there is room for improvement.

[xtor]

You can use Will to get those cards back and cycle them again to draw another card, but then the cycled card is removed from the game.

no.
yawg will doesn't let you cycle cards in your graveyard.
the cards aren't actually in your hand, and cycling them is not "playing them as though they were in your hand".

manabond + crucible o' worlds is not the p0wn either for the same reason

[twault]

Aw crud.

  You are correct.

I feel like such a moron. I've been playing Magic now since 1999, and I'm 26 years old, but you'd never know it from reading this post.

We don't have a very competitive Vintage scene where I live, so I guess I should brush up on some rules.  

Anyways, I'm still not giving up on this deck, even though I'm back to square one.

Here's a few new things that I've found that I've liked....

Songs of the Damned-Kaervek's Torch
The torch can protect you from Force of Will when your opponent is tapped out. This can be effective early. Go off before your opponent gets a chance to play and you got it.

Wheel of Fortune
Gets you a fresh hand when you run out of cyclers or just get rid of a hand of dead cards.

[Ollstar82]

Haunting Misery is really fun to play, but it's a one-shot deal that often hits a counterspell.

Lots of cycling creatures in the bin can lead to some trickery with graveyard removal. I've often found that Repopulate is really tech, as it can help if you run into lots of land.

You definetly want more than one Misery if you choose to run it.

Anyone suggest Lightning Rift? Not much mana to work with, but Songs of the Damned can be funny to run with Repopulate and the Rift.

[Freelancer]

How about a kill like this (still one shot but still) 2x songs of the damned, 1x duress, 1x haunting misery. This setupd requires little cards and has build in counterspell protection in duress...Double songs means you will be able to cast duress/misery even if they counter the first one...

Not to ditch this deck or anything but I doubt this will ever be viable...Here's why; you have to devote to many slots for cyclers wich leaves no slots for mana/disruption/draw/search wich in terms means that the deck will be very fragile and at times inconsistend...

[Kountkidd]

29 cycling creatures...
4 fluctuators
1 haunting missery
1 black lotus
1 force of will
all 24 urza's saga cycling lands

there should be only 7 cards in the deck that do not have cycling....its even better i you take out the force to take the non cycle cards to 6
because when the fluctuator gos off, you dont want to run out of cards that do cycle in your hand do to drawing the cards that dont.....

the budget deck calls for
4 fluctuators
1 lotus pedle
1 dark ritual
1 haunting missery
29 cycling creatures
24 cycling lands

with the lotus you can put the force in there for well countering stuff......i guess

this is the best way i have found to play it....i have tried a lot of different veriations of this deck this is the fastest and easiest way to pull it off

[doomhed]

29 cycling creatures...
4 fluctuators
1 haunting missery
1 black lotus
1 force of will
all 24 urza's saga cycling lands

this is the version I used to run. it was great for awhile until everyone catches on and learns to sideboard annul. 1 annul is like game over if they have a force backup.

[Koffie]

What about Winds of change ?
could be fine if it stalls?