[Deck Discussion] 2-Color or 3-color Goth Slaver?

[Ultima]

This is a question to which I really want to know people's opinions about.  

I have put alot of testing into answering this question for myself and I have yet to find a definitive answer.  The reasons I will outline in the following.  First of all however I feel I should explain how I play slaver.

I feel that slaver should be played aggressively to bring out all its ability and fully utilize its brokenness.  To be frank, I basically view it like 4-gush GAT with a different style of winning or that is to say that I view the deck to be a broken monster with which if you play aggressively can win regardless of what your opponent does once you hit about 3-4 mana.  Similar to Tog from 2 years ago although this deck is more broken and can win faster IMO.

The Differences-

When i tested the 2 different builds continue to notice a very subtle difference.  The 2-color can be played very aggressively and can virtually wipe out anything once it hits a certain mana standpoint.  The versions with black though and only 3 welders, i don't feel are as able to play as aggressively in the early game because they only run 3 welders and you really don't want to see yawg will early also.  

I will admit to a certain extent that the builds with black do have a slight edge over those without because of yawgmoth's will.  However, I feel that the 2-color version has a greater potential for early game brokenness.

The question becomes then which do think is the better build, black or not?  I should note though that both builds I'm referring to include main deck Deep Analysis since this seems like a must now with slaver being everywhere and neither 2 or 3 color without these can stand up to a build with them regardless from my testing.  

Is there a build between these that can properly utilize black and still take advantage of the early game the same as the 2-color?

What are your thoughts?

For reference, this is the list I played at Waterbury

1 Trike
1 Platz
1 Slaver
1 Crucible
4 Welders
4 Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst
4 AK
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
8 CryptSoLoMoxen
1 Stripmine
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand

You'd be suprised how just going

-1 Welder
-1 Volcanic Island

+1 Yawg Will
+1 Underground Sea

can change how the deck plays alot.

[Thug]

I played a version pretty simular to yours (basicly +1 Seat of the Synod, +1 Lava Dart) to a first place fininsh in Eindhoven and here are some thoughts on the deck. (Don't let the 62 card deck fool you, I'm being serious here).

With the amazing strong draw engine the deck has I rarely felt the deck was depending on Welder at all, and having only 3 probably wouldn't have been a problem at all. Without 2 Slaver to Intuitions for I found Welder isn't that much of a threat early on. A Platinum Angel is just not that much too be scared off, let alone Triskelion. I found that I was mainly using Welders as bait, putting my priority on resolving my draw-spells.

Will can be amazingly broken in this deck, but I rarely felt the need for it. If I was missing a black card it must have been Demonic. Will is great in the lategame, or when you are busy Slavering. But with the draw-engine of this deck you rarely have a problem winning a game that gets to the late game, nor should you have a problem winning once you get that Slaver activated.

In conclusion, I also like to play the deck aggresivly, but I don't think Welder is a fundemental part of this strategy (aside from being bait #1). Nor do I think Will is needed in this deck, since you rarely are behind in the situations were Will shines. If I would include a black card it has to be Demonic since fetching a Tinker/Time Walk/AK/Ancestral is good turn 1 and turn 10.

Koen

EDIT: I don't know if this could be discussed in this Topic, but what are the opinions about a transformational sideboard as I playe din Eindoven (basicly being able switch to Urphid by bringing in 3 Leak, 3 REB, 2 Phid, 1 Morphling for something like 4 Welder, 1 Crucible, 1 Trike, 1 Lava Dart, 1 Thirst and one more card.) I used I several times and I proved better than I expected (I basicly handn't tested the idea before the tournament   )

[True Lies Ownz]

since when is it a requirement for 3 color to run only 3 welders?

[Thug]

Its is not a reguirement, it's logic. The 4th Welder is probably the weakest card in the deck, because all other parts are either 0,2 or 4 off"s or are more important than Welder.

So it's either 61 cards, or one less Welder.
If you have another opinion on a card to cut feel free to add it.

Koen

[tehmajickguy]

I think Doug Linn put it best when he talked about a deck very similar to this one, when he said that the deck just sits there and draws so many cards that it makes the opponent irrelevant. In this particular deck, I feel that Yawg Will is more of a "win-more" card, since it very rarely will ever need to recast draw to win the game. Even just adding 1 Underground Sea can have an adverse effect on the decks mana base, being that I never really wanted to fetch for it, and would always prefer to have a Volc or a basic in my opening 7 instead. Its just another wasteland target in a deck that should really minimize its vulnerability to wastelands in order to maximize its odds of winning the workshop match.

I've logged a lot of hours with this thing and taken it to a bunch of power tournies, and I can honestly say that I have never once missed Will in the deck, nor did I ever need to cast Will when I ran it in order to win. I'd rather have my 4th Welder or metagame slot everytime.

[virtual]

I would prefer to cut a single brainstorm rather than play 3 welders.  

I know this is heresy, but brainstorm as a 4-of isn't as much of a requirement as every deck playing brainstorm makes it to be.  Playing 3 versus 4, doesnt really hurt, unless you are pushing the boundary of # of lands that you can play.  

They cantrip, and never cost you a card, improve card quality, but not quantity, and are the weakest of the draw in this deck.  

Brainstorm can be fantastic, especially with fetches, but there is a certain number which is useful;  if you have a deck with only brainstorms and islands, sure you get your pick of your brainstorms, but....


Welder is strictly one of the best creatures, if not the best creature,  in the game.  It serves as great counter bait, and if it resolves, it makes your thirsts and intuitions much more dangerous.  

Welder is a bomb that costs R, and acts as a threat to every deck in the meta that doesn't remove it in a single turn.  

-Virtual

[Hi-Val]

The playstyle in Intuition/Welder decks varies immensely between the versions. With Yawg Will, you can cast spells more freely and sloppily, at least with me, because you get second chances with all of it. I do stupid stuff like cast Intuition/AK on my own turn to try and go broken, whereas without Will, I tend to wait until EOT and work in a more controllish style.

I think that one of the difficulties with playing Intuition Slaver, aside from the color decisions and maindeck, is that you need to steal all your tempo back in the most efficient way possible. Against aggro, this means getting Plat down, against control it could be Mindslaver or Sundering Titan (Best card/Worst art evar!). I really liked Titans in the deck because you could immediately steal tempo, but I'm not sure if the metagame needs that right now.

I think that with Crucible/Citadel, I'd skip Will, but if I ran Bus, I'd have Will because Bus takes 2 welders to set up and get cranking and it's generally a slower lock.

BTW, being quoted in a thread before I come in is tech!

[Zeke]

I've been testing and running with Ultima's list since he posted it after Waterbury, and I must say I love it.  The deck can run off pure power and never have I missed yawgwill, and I played the nonintuition version of slaver so I know how broken it can be.

I also love Citadel/Crucible instead of Pentavus.  I guess it's just personal preference, but I do.  I find if I have a welder out and an artifact in play, if I intuition for slaver/citadel/crucible (or thirst of I already have one of the pieces in play/graveyard) then I just flat-out win.

[the boogie man]

I honestly have no experience with the deck, but I am wondering what the perks of crucible are vs. pentabus. Iknow that the cruc is faster, but is the utility of pentavus worth the inclusion?

[Hi-Val]

Pentavus is really good against 5/3 and other aggro-style decks if you can get it out in time. You can also use it to overcome ground stalls and tinker it up early for nice beats. However, it requires 2 welders for a truly infinite lock (though you shouldn't need to go infinite with Pentavus beating your opponent down in the meantime).

Crux has the advantage of insane Intuition synergy and being able to cast Crucible if they put it in your hand. Crucible protects the manabase and allows you to run a single Strip Mine to be Intuitioned out to break control mirrors up. It has a snaller effect, but it's cheaper. It's a tradeoff.

[Chamelet]

I guess taking out the 4th welder for Yawg Will is a fair deal (and probably a wise choice) since Will is just insane with Intuition and well, it's basically the 4th welder anyway, since if you don't have a welder in play with this amount of draw is because it's dead in your graveyard (countered or destroyed) waiting to be Will'd for.
And Will let's you play aggressively, not caring if thing get countered or not.

[Smmenen]

Ultima - the correct answer is "it depends."   I would LOVE to talk about this in depth along with alot of the other major issues involved with the deck.

[the Luke]

I've been running the Will-based goth slaver for some time... I don't think it really gives me too much, and am planning on changing back to U/R.

Smmenen, what's stopping you from talking about this in depth? :-/
He has to write the meandeck tendrils primer first, and that is a hard deck to teach.
-Jacob

[Toad]

U/R with Yawgmoth's Will as the only black spell is fine. Either run 1 Underground Sea (+ Darksteel Citadel) or 1 Swamp (+ Seat of the Synod) to support it, and just fetch the land with Polluted Delta when needed. Having the Underground Sea wasted is not *that* a real problem because you still have Black Lotus, Mox Jet and Crucible of Worlds after that.

This changes the way to play the deck a lot though. It allows you to be far more aggressive with your draw spells and Intuition often turns into a Yawgmoth's Will set up.

[Covetous]

I have a few questions:
1.  Is Tolarian Academy really necessary?  The non-basicness of it makes me wonder if it's the right card, especially because I don't think it's as explosive as it can be in, say, Stax.
2.  Would it be better to replace Mystical Tutor with Will instead of replacing Welder?  Or, at least, to replace MTutor with Demonic Tutor in the URb build?  Mystical seems like the weakest link in this deck because the huge amount of draw can find pretty much anything pretty much anytime.  I really don't like running <4 welders in this deck because I think it needs them to play as aggressively as you are talking about.
3.  Shay used Lotus Petal at Waterbury.  What do you think about running it in the URb build, based on its synergy with Will and its usefulness as an additional source of black?

[forests failed you]

You might want to consider the Pentavus in the maindeck in addition to crucible.  Not only is Pentavus useful in the sense that the allows you to set up the lock and take the rest of your opponents turns, but he is your most efficient tool for battling Stax game one.  Although he is particularly useful against 5/3, and other aggro matchups because of his blocking capabilities, when tinkered up against stax early, the ability to make four permenents is critical in escaping a bad situation.

Also, I have found that Mana Vault can be pretty fantastic in the maindeck because of its ability to allow faster Thirsts, Fact or Fictions, and Intuitions.  Especially if you choose to run Tolerian Academy because of its mana ramping ability, even a tapped Mana Vault is productive in play.

[thecapn]

I would prefer to cut a single brainstorm rather than play 3 welders.  

I know this is heresy, but brainstorm as a 4-of isn't as much of a requirement as every deck playing brainstorm makes it to be.  Playing 3 versus 4, doesnt really hurt, unless you are pushing the boundary of # of lands that you can play.  

Ultima's Waterbury list plays only 23 mana sources.  Brainstorm is necessary in the deck.  It is amazing for the reasons you explain in the rest of your post.

Welder is strictly one of the best creatures, if not the best creature,  in the game.  It serves as great counter bait, and if it resolves, it makes your thirsts and intuitions much more dangerous.  

Welder is a bomb that costs R, and acts as a threat to every deck in the meta that doesn't remove it in a single turn.  

If you look at the list, though, there are only *4* artifacts of consequence - Triskelion, Platinum Angel, Crucible of Worlds, and Mindslaver.  For this reason, you seldom need Welder until you are about to win, and you generally only need one.  I do agree that it is great counter bait, but in versions with Yawgmoth's Will, everything is bait for Yawgmoth's Will, at which point you just win.  I play Goth Slaver (with Will), like I play Tog - you only really need Tog when you are about to win or when you're about to lose.  I almost always Brainstorm + Fetch away welders in the early game since you simply don't need them, which is another argument for 4 Brainstorm.  However, if I was playing in the NorthEast I would probably try to find room for the 4th Welder in the Will versions simply because of the popularity of main deck Lava Dart.

In the past I have preferred the Will version because it gives you yet another set of cards to Intuition for - ie. Intuitioning for whichever of the following you haven't seen yet: Ancestral, Time Walk, AK #4, Black Lotus, random lock parts.  I have not, however, gotten a chance to test the Deep Analysis version, which may maximize your Intuitions just as well.  Sometimes I do like winning more though

Re: Lotus Petal
Shay ran Lotus Petal solely for the acceleration against combo, and it was the 26th mana source.  It's perhaps tied with Mana Vault as the 26th or maybe the 25th Mana Source, but I couldn't really ever find room for anything more than 24.

Oh, and Ultima: Did you ever have any trouble getting your 1 Mindslaver into the graveyard?  I've always thought 2 was a necessity.

[Ultima]

Again, it looked to me from the testing that it would come down to playstyle and to a degree, your expected metagame.  

For example, Koen, as he said plays the deck like a Yawg Will deck and uses will as the bomb while not caring as much about welders.  Personally, I believe the deck is far more broken than Yawgmoth's Will.  I can tell you right now, that the goldfish rate of this deck can be as early as turn 2 for a win.

Now what I mean to say is that this deck can win as early as turn 2, or even 1 with a time walk and WITHOUT Yawg Will.  The  method being welder and intuition.  How many people actually play the deck by going turn 1, volcanic into welder and turn 2 intuition and winning right there.  I don't mean you literally killed your opponent or that you slaver locked him, (although that also happens on turn 2 as well), I mean that you intutitioned for a a set of 3 cards that with an active welder will lock the game and create a gamestate that your opponent has no chance outside of a miracle from which to come out of.  For control, this set is usually- Crucible, Strip, Trike, or COW, artifact land, Slaver while Aggro-control like Oath or Fish dies to COW, Strip, Platinum.  Workshop loses to Trike, Platz, COW.  You see the real bomb in this deck is Intuition.  This combined with welder is almost always a 2-card game winning combo.  From my own testing, the black versions can't do this as often as the 2-color versions because they have a more unstable manabase and most of the time, only 3 welders.

And there in lies the question that I pose to everyone.  Is it possible to find a build that can still have this same level of borkenness and still house black and will effectively?

[Zeke]

As you said, I don't believe the deck needs will.  More often than not, intuition + welder is more powerful and more broken than will can be.  The mere fact that an end-of-turn intuition for three cards that leave the opponent without any feasible way to come out ahead is both psychologically damaging, and can sometimes force your opponents to make play mistkaes based on merely what you intuitioned for.  Giving your opponent only 3 cards to base their entire strategy off is an insane advantage, and the deck doesn't need to use will to reclaim any lost tempo.

The only benefit of will is that it lets you reclaim lost welders, but I would not cut a welder for this ability.

[Thug]

For example, Koen, as he said plays the deck like a Yawg Will deck and uses will as the bomb while not caring as much about welders. Personally, I believe the deck is far more broken than Yawgmoth's Will. I can tell you right now, that the goldfish rate of this deck can be as early as turn 2 for a win.

I play it like a Will deck, without a Will, how about that? I explained that I never felt the need for Will, since there simple is more than enough draw in the deck with DA, and having is soo much better than having Will.

There is simply not a single card in the U/R you really mind being countered as long as you keep some kind of draw engine going, and to me thats the strength of the deck.

Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Intuition is great, but I rarely pulled it out, since there is such a small change both will resolve and your welder will stay on the board. More often I played slightly more controllish going for things like 1 Slaver 2 DA. As explained before with DA you can actually get an uncounterable discard at the end of your turn  

Koen

[nataz]

How many people actually play the deck by going turn 1, volcanic into welder and turn 2 intuition and winning right there.  

from Toads article a loooong time ago on SCG

"If you have an active Goblin Welder on the board, Intuition becomes a win condition on its own. Against traditional Aggro decks, you'll most of the time end up Intuitioning for your fat creatures, Pentavus and Platinum Angel, along with a Mindslaver or a Crucible of Worlds, depending on the matchup. Aggro has a hard time to deal with these big creatures which allow you to take the Aggro-Control route. Against Control, depending on the board position and the cards in your hand, Intuitioning for Mindslaver, Crucible of Worlds and Darksteel Citadel, or Mindslaver, Mindslaver, Crucible of Worlds is the key play. But sometimes, especially if you are in the very first turns of the game, you'll just Intuition for Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine to win the game...."

I started playing the deck this way, and to a certain extent I still do. I feel like intuition allows this deck to switch roles very easily from match to match. You can play control with Intuition -> AK/DA, you can play beat down with Intuition -> fat, or you can play prison with intuition -> cruci-lock/mindslaver.

I love having the option to pro-actively force role assignment starting on turn two. It’s why I still play with 4 welders, and R/U, because I want to optimize the chances of this happening.

I feel like the will versions of this deck change the deck’s goal to resolves a crushing will as soon as possible. I understand why you would be playing this deck like you would play tog, but to a certain point I dissagree with doing that. Tog never had the options that this deck has with its intuitions. Why force yourself into X role before a match even starts?
 
For me, the point of this deck has always been to resolve an intuition with a welder on the board as quickly as possible. I of course understand there are lots of different options you can take to get there, but is this the wrong mentality?

[onelovemachine]

I think cutting a welder is a mistake.  Welder is excellent not only because of what he does in your deck, but because of what he does to your opponents deck (we all know that at heart but everyone seems to be forgetting).  Playing against another slaver or shop? welders are, of course, key and playing less than four puts you at a severe disadvantage.  Personally, I think cutting brainstorm lacks wisdom for the same reasons.  Why cut your one mana draw spell that fixes your hand?  I realize the deck is immensly (sp?) powerful based on its three draw engines, but it seems to me that you might want to go with something like.....

-2deep
-1land (island?)

+1demonic
+1will
+1underground sea
and maybe...
-1other land
+1more fetch

Cutting mystical seems bad when you have tinker and will in your deck.  Adding demonic seems good because of all the stuff you want to have at any given time.  You can still use your three intuitions for broken plays with welder/ will, and you should be able to reliably cast anything you want.

[Outlaw]

I have the feelings that using Will gives you the ability to win when you wouldnt be able to win previously.  Ex. I was play testing agaisnt TrixR4Kids and he had superior board advantage (he was playing mono-brown stax).  I was able to get off a yawg's will and replay all my permanents, a welder, time walk, recall and slave lock that turn.  Yawg's gives you the single handed ability to win the game when you really couldnt, hence saying "I just drew a 3 mana card that says I win the game".

[Toad]

(I've already mentionned all this in the article published a month ago on SCG columns)

As soon as you are running Crucible of Worlds in the deck, you should play It as an Intuition deck far before a Yawgmoth's Will deck. When starting the game, my fundamental goal, regardless of the matchup, is to go first turn Goblin Welder leading to a turn 2 game winning Intution (set ups depending on the matchups there). This is why I'm playing the deck with 4 Goblin Welders and will never play it with one less Welder.

Sure, opponent can Force the Welder if I have no backup. But then he has wasted a card and a strong counterspell and I've lost a random creature. Just take the draw route afterwards and overwhelm him with card advantage.

IMHO, the core components of the deck are

4 Goblin Welder
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Crucible of Wolds
1 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Citadel or Seat of the Synod
1 Strip Mine

I would never run something less than mentionned there.

I've seen FAR too many players going turn 2 Intuition for Accumulated Knowledge after going turn 1 unanswered Goblin Welder. That is just stupid.

That is, if I'm going to run Black, I would not play Demonic Tutor since I don't want to fetch Underground Sea by turn 2.

[orgcandman]

Welder is strictly one of the best creatures, if not the best creature,  in the game.  It serves as great counter bait, and if it resolves, it makes your thirsts and intuitions much more dangerous.  

Welder is a bomb that costs R, and acts as a threat to every deck in the meta that doesn't remove it in a single turn.  

If you look at the list, though, there are only *4* artifacts of consequence - Triskelion, Platinum Angel, Crucible of Worlds, and Mindslaver.  For this reason, you seldom need Welder until you are about to win, and you generally only need one.  ....

I don't think you're looking at welder correctly if you're thinking of him as just a "combo-enabler" for the deck's infi. slaver combo.  Welder is a critical proactive threat, as he will trade null rods with lotus petals/loti, he can turn a jugz into a redundant 3sphere, and fuel insanely great tricks. Going to less than 4 is insane, as when you're staring down the face of a saveable situation (IE: weld opposing titan into mana vault/crypt) your chances of seeing a critical welder are hindered.

I would much rather cut an underground sea, a demonic, a slaver (if you run 2), or a brainstorm before I ever cut a welder. They're just too important in today's meta. Everyone runs artifacts, and everyone's artifacts are vulnerable to welder (barring a hannah's custody).

[cosineme]

Has anyone considered adding colossus or titan back to the main deck? I've found that with lists adding back mystical tutor, tinker for turn 1 or turn 2 colossus has become much more commonplace.

I know that with such a strong deck, tinker colossus isn't that strong of a play versus tinker anything, however, tinker coloussus doesn't require mana that slaver does, and puts them on a clock that plats can't compare.

Before adding colossus or a titan to the MainBoard, my strongest tinker move was for plats, or late game crucible/slaver.  Now, adding some fat allows my first turn tinker some credibility.

[Zeke]

There was a time when one of our team was advocating a titan in the board for polychromatic control but it became irrelevant soon because we realized the only real control matches left was the mirror.

From his tournament report after I asked about titan.

Truthfully, the only time I ever wanted it was when my opponent happens one and I can't tinker for triskelion or something else to block it.

[MrZuccinniHead]

i like both builds but i have leaned back to U/r for more explosiveness in a meta with little control (Chicago area = shops).  I'm interested to see what The Atog Lord has to say about this.

[Saucemaster]

I'm interested to see what The Atog Lord has to say about this.

Rich has stated many times that he finds the Intuition-less, AK-less builds to be the superior choice.  The arguments for dropping black hinge on Intuition.

[RJ]

You're first turn tinker has credibility without the marginal DC.  Although I don't particularly like turn one tinker, platz is just fine for what you want to do.  It doesn't really matter how long it takes to win as long as you get the desired result.  Titan just doesn't compare well with DC much less any of the other artifacts that are already maindecked.  When Titan gets trample then we can talk   .