[Issue] Should we work on a special ban list for this forum?

[Toad]

Every couple of days, I see some decklist posted on this forum containing one or more of the following cards :

* Stasis
* Winter Orb
* Static Orb
And some others ...

I have serious issues with these decklists, and always feel like nuking them from orbit or throwing them to the Newbie forum. Casual games are meant to be fun games with interaction between both players.

How is being unable to play spells / untap lands / untap creatures fun?
Is there really someone there who has opponents who find being unable to actually play the game fun?

[Malhavoc]

The one playing stasis is the one having fun, of course... he just needs to find a new opponent every time!  :lol:

Jokes apart, I've seen (and built) some stasis decks which, thanks to hard locks, don't need to mill you card by card. If you are completely locked down, you can just give me the win and make another. It's just like I had played a tendril for 20 after all: you have lost, no matter what, let's make another. I had games with some friends using this deck, while they were using other casual decks like strange megrim+discard effects or simple creatures decks. It becomes a run to the one who manages to pull the combo (or the lethal damage) out first. Usually we make another when the game is clearly finished and there's no reason to continue; example: you have only two mana, root maze is in play, you can cast naturalize but I have this active FoW I'm showing you, and you don't have counterspells in your deck. I will soon cast time vault and win. GG, let's make another.

[Toad]

If you are completely locked down

That sounds totally NOT fun to me.

[Kasuras]

Well, some people might find locking down opponents completely funny. And some people might find being locked down funny.  

Other than that, this is an open forum where apperantly most people don't like such decks. And thus, why bother posting them when only you and your friend get to enjoy getting locked? It's just a waste of bandidth, I guess.

Of course, this raises the subject of the sole existance of this forum and while I'm not meaning to step on anyone's toes: this forum should be for casual forms of magic only. (read: highlander, tribal wars, etc) Other than that: decks that work under rules that apply under the same rules as vintage should just be in the newbie forum. Why? Well, you seek improvement for your deck and no matter how hard you try: if you really want a good deck, don't do casual.

Just my opinion though.

[Malhavoc]

If you are completely locked down

That sounds totally NOT fun to me.

Well, trying to create some weird combo is fun. Trying to put them into play is fun too, and those combos usually should make you win in some way. Forcing a reasonable player to accept the loss is a way to win when there are NO way out for him. Trying to put your combo out before you opponent is the challenge. Personally I find fun to try being faster than my opponent, running through counterspells and such. And my friends feel quite the same, since they like to play against my stasis deck. I can understand you don't like it, but this is just that sort of thing which is not right or wrong, it just depends.

@kasuras: what you say makes sense. But what you define "Casual"? If for you casual is just  highlander, tribal wars, etc, than this part of the forum should be as competitive as the vintage one, and just talk about good decks within those rules. But if for casual you just mean "funny to play with friends", then it's not so. Since after all the two points of view are quite distant from each other, would it be better to have different parts of the forums for those two?  

Now the casual part of the forum says:
"A forum for those who play the game for the game itself as well as formats with non-standard rules."

Could it be better to split that in two?

"A forum for those who play the game for the game itself"

"A forum for formats with non-standard rules."

[Ephraim]

I'm wary of outright banning any cards. At worst, I would say we ought to post a bulletin, gently suggesting that certain cards (the ones you mentioned among them) and even entire deck styles (prison, fast combo) are probably not the most casually-oriented. If somebody explains beforehand that their local environment endorses prison-style decks, that's a slightly different case. That said, I mostly agree with Kasuras,

Other than that: decks that work under rules that apply under the same rules as vintage should just be in the newbie forum. Why? Well, you seek improvement for your deck and no matter how hard you try: if you really want a good deck, don't do casual.

Obviously, I don't agree that casual decks have to be bad -- I make my stance on that matter very clear in the stickied article in this forum. I do, however, agree, that this is not the place for every bad, Vintage deck. Unfortunately, that may not coincide with moderation policy. I know that Jacob Orlove has been known to move deck here from the Vintage Newbie forum when he feels they don't even stand up there.

[Malhavoc]

Let's also remember that, despite rogue decks are NOT bad decks, casual decks CAN be bad decks. There are "casual" deck ideas that, even when optimized to the best, are just plain weak and bad. Despite that, people could find funny playing with them and winning sometimes. And could like to receive as many input as possible to make the deck the best it can get, even if that "best" is quite low on the power scale. Winning through a VERY weak combo could be incredibly satisfying.

[Toad]

I know that Jacob Orlove has been known to move deck here from the Vintage Newbie forum when he feels they don't even stand up there.

Yeah, and that is quite a problem IMHO. "Being too terrible for competitive Type One play" does not imply "Good for casual games". Decks such as Stasis or weird Combo decks that still kill by turn 3 are obviously bad in tournament play, but are absolutely not casual ones.

When I design a casual deck, there are two questions I always ask myself :
* Do I have fun when playing it?
* Does my opponent have fun facing it?

If I have to answer 'no' to one of these questions, then the deck is not casual play material.

I have a cool Prison deck for casual games though. But It involves getting Man'O-War or Time Elemental out to bounce their creatures/permanents back to their hand and Crystal Shard + Ravenous Rats recursion for the wanted Recoil effect. That is hardly not casual

Rogue != Casual.

[Ephraim]

Maybe I shoud rephrase that -- I totally endorse decks that contain bad win conditions, but I don't think even casual players really have much excuse to play suboptimal decks. Obviously, if the next best card costs $30 more than the card you'd like to use, that's a legeitimate objection, but if you are trying to use Gray Ogre, unless you're playing an Ogre deck or have some other very legitimate reason for not doing so (vanilla creatures only, alphabet format, etc.), play with Arc Mage, Blade Sliver, Brutal Deceiver or Dwarven Vigilantes.

[Malhavoc]

When I design a casual deck, there are two questions I always ask myself :
* Do I have fun when playing it?
* Does my opponent have fun facing it?

That's right, but when we talk about banning entire decks or cards from this forum, you should instead ask yourself:

* Are there people who have fun when playing it?
* Does the one who want to play such deck know players who have fun facing it?

[Jacob Orlove]

I know that Jacob Orlove has been known to move deck here from the Vintage Newbie forum when he feels they don't even stand up there.

Actually, the only deck I've moved to here recently is the "Kobold Freeze" deck, where he made it clear that his goal is to build a deck with no lands. Optimizing a deck under a constraint like that is clearly casual forum material.

[Bram]

The problem is people define the word 'fun' differently. This is where the TMD invitational went wrong. Also, this is a casual forum, not a fun forum.

[Upinthe]

Banning prison cards is really dumb in my opinion.  Its obvious that a good amount of people like them or they wouldn't print so many different kinds.  People might also want to post old type 1 decks that have  stuff like Smokestack in them for fun.

Also, why isn't this thread a poll?

[Toad]

Also, why isn't this thread a poll?

Polls make people randomly vote. This is not exactly why I started this thread.

I *do* agree banning all Prison cards is quite dumb. Nevertheless, there is a difference between "casual" and "rogue" or "non competitive". There are only a few decks that are designed for real casual play here, with casual meaning "taking pleasure playing Magic and having good times and fun with friends". Most of the decks posted there are just roguish decks that are neither fun, nor competitive. I would throw most of the decks posted there in the Newbie Forum, because that's IMHO where they belong. Something with Stasis can't really be considered as casual. It's just a reminiscent of an old deck that is now bad. It's like building an unpowered Stax or Drain Slaver, and posting it in Casual because It's too terrible for Competitive play.

My casual decks usually run no counterspells and no disruption, and do not plan on preventing the opponent from playing spells. They do not involve turn 1 Tropical Island, Birds of Paradise, turn 2 Island, Stasis

[Ephraim]

Banning prison cards is really dumb in my opinion.  Its obvious that a good amount of people like them or they wouldn't print so many different kinds.  People might also want to post old type 1 decks that have  stuff like Smokestack in them for fun.

Also, why isn't this thread a poll?

It is true that many people like prison cards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're well-liked in a casual venue. Wizards prints different kinds of cards for different people. Prison cards, which some (many?) people don't think are much fun to play with or against are certainly an important aspect of strictly competitive Magic, where fun takes a back seat to winning and losing. MaRo has said many times that not every kind of card is printed for every kind of player. I think that enough people object to prison cards in casual games that for the most part, Wizards did not print such cards for use by casual players. Nonetheless, I don't like the idea of banning them. That's saying that there is NO fun way of using Stasis or Winter Orb. It might be true, but I'd rather judge it on a case-by-case basis.

[Mouth for War]

From Toad :

How is being unable to play spells / untap lands / untap creatures fun?
Is there really someone there who has opponents who find being unable to actually play the game fun?

     If your opponent has to just sit there for the duration of the game while you play spells, it isn't a fun game.  Magic is supposed to be about interaction - interaction between cards and between players.

     For instance, I despise land destruction decks.  There is nothing fun about watching every land you play get nuked while you take a slow beatdown from a Kird Ape.


     So the problem then becomes, how do you word the "ban?"  Do you come up with a list of specific cards?  Do you simply try to word the introduction in such a way as to make it clear what types of decks you wish to avoid being posted (with the inherent danger of some people still not grasping the subject)?



Ephraim said :

Obviously, I don't agree that casual decks have to be bad -- I make my stance on that matter very clear in the stickied article in this forum.

     I agree.  I don't think it's possible to be able to make a blanket statement on casual decks - after all, Fish came about from, if I remember correctly, what was supposed to have been just a casual merfolk deck of Phantom Tape Worm's, but was discovered to be able to reliably defeat Keeper, even in Fish's early incarnations.

     You can also look at some of the other decks out there in the past couple of years and see a good deal of cards that most people would agree usually wouldn't make it out of casual play had mad scientists like the Vintage Adepts here not started experimenting.

     Goblin Welder, considered by most to be the most dangerous creature in the game, was ignored for years - as were Intuition (hell, I bought 4 for $1 apiece a few years back), Sphere of Resistance, Brainstorm, Gush, etc.  



Malhavoc posted :

Let's also remember that, despite rogue decks are NOT bad decks, casual decks CAN be bad decks. There are "casual" deck ideas that, even when optimized to the best, are just plain weak and bad. Despite that, people could find funny playing with them and winning sometimes. And could like to receive as many input as possible to make the deck the best it can get, even if that "best" is quite low on the power scale. Winning through a VERY weak combo could be incredibly satisfying.

     Absolutely.  There is always that theme deck you've wanted to build (something incredibly slow like a Minotaur deck, or basing a deck around Carnival of Souls, Coalition Victory, or even...The Cheese Stands Alone!!!) that will never give even mid-level Type I decks a run for their money, but are fun to play in groups.

     That doesn't mean they're not worth trying to improve, it just means that Magic players more interested in winning at all costs rather than socializing with friends don't need to bother reading it - hence, the "casual" forum.