[Deck] RED

[LUPO]

My friends and I recently got back into type one play after a lengthy hiatus.  We had a friend of ours who was home from college build us the archtypes of the day, combine that with a $ 1200 order to starcity and we are back in the saddle for type one play.  We have a very healthy gauntlet built and have most of the major archtypes covered.  We all have our own pet decks, I used to have an exploration/stripmine deck that I toyed with for a few years, but it being stolen really took the wind out of my sails.  But we have been playing more recently and I have been re-inspired to build a deck of my own again.

Ever since the Magic Invitational a few years ago when one player busted out the Bazaar/Squee engine, I have been intregued by it.  It has been played a few times with moderate success in a few archtypes, and now I want to take my stab at it.  

The main premise of the deck is Hate.   It is packed with hate for the types of cards and strateges that are prominent in type one at the moment.  I have not built it yet, but will have it together within a week or so and can begin testing soon.  Deck list is below with explanation to follow:

3   Firey Temper
3   Violent Erruption
3   Fire Blast
   
4   Fork
3   Squee
3   Rack and Ruin
4   Red Elemental Blast

2   Crucible of Worlds
2   Anvil of Bogarden
1   Cursed Scroll
3   Phyrexian Furnace

4   Bazaar of Baghdad
4   Wasteland
1   Stripmine

5   Moxes
1   Black Lotus
1   Sol Ring
1   Mox Diamond
1   Chrome Mox
1   Lotus Petal
10   Mountain/Sac Lands


I feel like I am missing another solid discard engine to back up the Bazaar, I have the nagging suspicion that the Anvil will not cut it.  Problem is that most (if not all) of reds discard is random, which is unacceptable.  I think that Fork is a very underplayed card and if played appropriatly can really make a dent in things.  Most notably the storm decks, as if you tendrils me for 28, I fork, you die first.  It is a tremendously versatile card and is probably the real spark that caused me to put this together.  

Card by card:

Firey Temper/Violent Erruption/Fireblast:  I looked at pretty much every burn spell and these were the three that I came up with.  The madness has obvious synergy with the bazaar and forking a fireblast is just too sexy to pass up.  Lightning Bolt just did not make the cut, and I did not want to run Artifact Lands to support Shrapnel Blast.  I can kill welders, juggs etc... I think it fits nicely as a victory condition as well

Fork - About as versatile as you get, and given that you can now fork counterspells, I think the card can turn some heads.

Squee - Works with the Bazaar and the anvil as discard fodder.  The real heart of what will make the deck run

Rack and Ruin - Speaks for itself, even against Oath and decks that are not artifact heavy, taking out two moxes can mean the game.  Mana is tight in every good build, so it can really make  a difference.

Red BLasts - Pretty much All type one decks play blue (except this one for some odd reason), worse comes to worse they are food for the bazaar.  This is part of the surprise factor of the deck, they are not expected game one, and it will only take one to throw a combo player off his rythm.

Crucible - The Crucible/Stripmine play is the other engine in the deck,  I dont think I need to explain its effectivness.  Also protects the bazaar.

Anvil - Back up Bazaar, not ideal, but the best I could find.

Cursed scroll - One of the flex slots, will probably end up as the 4th Squee.  But it is a powerful card and it has always served me well.

Mana - Pretty self explanatory, I built it with the idea that I want to have two red open on the first turn to fork as often as possible, the pedal and two fake moxes are there for that purpose.

That pretty much sums it up.  I have always been a fan of counterless control decks, and this is another shot at one.

Again, will have it together in about a week and will be able to play it soon after.

What do you think?

[Necrologia]

I think that Fork is a very underplayed card and if played appropriatly can really make a dent in things. Most notably the storm decks, as if you tendrils me for 28, I fork, you die first.

This is incorrect. Forking a card doesn't give you copies of that card from storm. If you Fork a tendrils you'll only deal them 2 damage and gain 2.

Interesting deck though. I'll show the deck list to my friend who plays Burninator.  Have you tried splashing black for tutors, Will and the Chains+Anvil hard lock?

[LUPO]

Are you sure about the storm thing?

I can not see why if I fork a tendrils, I would not get the storm effect also.  I get an exact copy of the spell, and storm is a part of it.  I am not the rules guru I was five years ago, but I see no logic as to why it would not copy.  

Is there any explanation for this?

[Toad]

Fork puts copies on the stack. Storm is triggered by the spell being played.

[Zherbus]

The main premise of the deck is Hate. It is packed with hate for the types of cards and strateges that are prominent in type one at the moment. I have not built it yet, but will have it together within a week or so and can begin testing soon.

7. Moved threads

Bad decks: What is a bad deck? A deck that is not a good deck is the most concise answer I can provide. If this is true, then what is a good deck? I would argue that by definition a good deck is a deck that consistently will perform well... or "good". Did you notice I added the word "consistently" to my definition? This is because any deck, good or bad, can get lucky once and do well but that does not make for a good deck.

So a deck that does well consistently rules out the following:

Metagame Decks - The decks that are only good in a specific metagame cannot be good because they cannot be consistently good. Some decks are fantastic metagame calls in odd circumstances, but that makes the player a good metagamer and does not make a deck good by definition.

I think that Fork is a very underplayed card and if played appropriatly can really make a dent in things. Most notably the storm decks, as if you tendrils me for 28, I fork, you die first.

Fork puts copies on the stack. Storm is triggered by the spell being played.

Obvious Rules flubs. That's newbie stuff right there.

Moved to Newbie

[Moxlotus]

So how exactly are you supposed to stop Oath coming turn 1 or 2, a trinisphere turn 1 followed by Juggernaut, a turn 2 TFK followed by Mindslaver/Sundering Titan, and a turn 2 Tendrils for 20?

And after that, how do you plan on actually winning the game?

[LUPO]

I knew in advance that a quick oath would be a problem, best I could hope for would be to burn the token creature, then waste the orchard before it untaps to give me another.  A trinishpere is not really a threat as madness gets around it, plus the deck is not exactly speedy.  My plan for tendrils was the forks and the red blasts, I am still unclear on whether or not the fork storms (I see no reason why it wouldnt), but apparantly it doesnt according to our moderators.  More clarification would defintly be welcome (just for my own education).  I route to victory is the burn, 20 points really isnt that much when you think about it, a few sac lands, and a few city of brass activations makes a forked fireblast pretty threatening.

[Malhavoc]

There is a technical difference between the word "play" and the phrase "put on the stack". The storm ability triggers only on a spell being "played", but fork does not let you "play" the copied spell. It instead "puts a copy on the stack". And putting a copy on the stack does not trigger the storm ability.

[ProZachar]

A trinishpere is not really a threat as madness gets around it, plus the deck is not exactly speedy.  

All spells played will cost (at least) 3 under Trinisphere, even if you use Madness.  This doesn't matter so much for Violent Eruption as its madness cost already puts it at 3 (RR1).  However, Fiery Temper played via Madness will cost 2R with a Trinisphere out.

[LUPO]

Wouldnt the cost of the firey temper be three when trinisphere checks for it, as that is the casting cost?

[ProZachar]

The converted mana cost of Fiery Temper is 3, true.  However, Trinisphere looks at what would be the play cost of the spell.  When you calculate the play cost of a spell, first you start with the base value (normally this is just the mana cost, but things like Madness[1] or alternate costs ala Force of Will[2] can make it diffferent).  Then you add additional costs (like Chill or Sphere of Resistance), then you subtract mana from cost reducers (Affinity, the Tempest Medallions, the Invasion Familiars).  The result of all of that is what would be the play cost of the spell.  Trinisphere looks at that play cost and says "Does this cost less than 3 mana?"  If the answer is "yes" then Trinisphere says "It now costs three; the extra portion of which may be paid with colored and/or colorless mana."  If the answer is "no" Trinisphere does nothing.

[1]  A Madness-ed Fiery Temper sets this value at 1
[2]  A Force of Will played in the usual fashion (pitch a blue card and pay 1 life) sets this value at 0.

[LUPO]

After digging around oracle text and card rulings (being an Entrepreneur has it benefits), I am wrong on both counts.  I need to think about the deck more as two of my initial thoughts are not rules compliant.  I am still building and still hyped about a mono red deck.  In terms of trinishphere, I am still confident that it isnt that big a deal as I can waste workshops and just wait and build up my mana.  The deck is in no rush and has many effects that are more than 3 anyway.  Next idea is to go read every red instant in the game and see what I can dig up (I dont think Backfire will help much either, but old gems are still fun to try and make work).

Trinisphere and storm are worded very difficultly.  Not much can trump them.  It sucks that fork cant do it, flavorwise it really should be able too, but alas, what are you gonna do.

Anyone have a thought on a different idea I can work in?

[Zherbus]

3 Firey Temper
3 Violent Erruption
3 Fire Blast

4 Fork
3 Squee
3 Rack and Ruin
4 Red Elemental Blast

2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Anvil of Bogarden
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Phyrexian Furnace

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
10 Mountain/Sac Lands

1) 10 Mountains/Sac Land isn't enough to run Fireblast reliably.

2) A deck that runs 9 non-red land spells, but 20 red spells of which 10 require DOUBLE red is bound to have serious problems casting it's spells in the first 3 turns of the game. This format has a fundimental turn of 1.5 or 2 right now which means that everydeck has either won or is in a position to win on turn 2.

3) Wasteland isn't very powerful right now. Modern control decks run more basics than ever. The only decks that are running basics are faster decks that don't care whether you use a Wasteland on them or not.

4) Not all type one decks run a strong Blue card-base. Most combo decks are very light on blue right now, Workshop decks are running very little of it, which pretty much leaves Slaver and Oath. It works fine against Slaver, but Oath just drops it's green enchantment with Forbidden Orchard and swings over two turns to win.

5) Wasteland against Trinisphere decks isn't really an answer. First of all, they almost always drop moxen on the same turn as Trinisphere so a turn 2 land Crucible is very likely. Secondly, looking at your manabase, you'll likely need that colorless mana more than you'd need to blow up their Workshop. You'll certainly find that your method will work from time to time, but I wouldn't count on it turning the matchups around.

In short, if your deck was in a format full of Keeper from 2001 it might be pretty good since the fundimental turn was more towards 3 or 4. Combo didn't exist too much back then so nothing won much before turns 4 or 5. You had a luxery of spending 3 turns to get set up, then worry about winning.

If you want my suggestions, I'd look around at Burninator lists to see what other people have tried. I'd probably force myself to splash blue (fetchlands allow you to solidify your manabase so there's almost no excuse to not run blue) so I could support Fire/Ice, Tinker, and draw spells. I'd also look into running Isochron Scepter and, if you run Tinker, Darksteel Colossus possibly.

[LUPO]

The land count is low as I have 3 red moxes as well as the lotus and pedal to produce my red early in the game.  The goal of this was to allow me to fork/rack and ruin/blast things as early in the game as possible.  Mana could very well be off, but only playtesting and tweaking will help me fix that.

To play with the fireblast, I have the crucible and I had no intention of using them in the early game.  By the time I need them, I should have a few mountains in play.

I agree that the speed of the game is very high at the moment. 1.5 or 2 sounds about right in terms of the key turn.  My response was that I put in all of the red acceleration that I could as well as the usual mana artifacts to allow me to get some disruption in ASAP.  More often then not, one disruption spell is enough to slow things down atleast a turn, at that point the goal is to have another to slow things down more etc...

I disagree that wasteland is not powerful right now.  Workshop is running wild and the mana bases of most decks are very very tight.  You are absolutly correct that basic land use is high, but forcing a deck to run only on its basics will slow it down and it will not run as effectivly as it could (mono-blue being the exception).  Oath for example, can run on only its islands, but tempo wise, it doesnt mind having its tropicals or orchards around.

Again, you are right that most non-control decks do not run a blue card base, but that does not mean that they do not run blue.  I dont think that I will meet much resistance if I were to say that blue is the most powerful color in type one, you even suggested that I splash it into this deck.  Combo hates not having that first brainstorm or ancestral to get it rolling.  My point is that while quantity wise the number of blue spells may not be 80%+, but the QUALITY of the spells that are blue is far higher than any other color, and most decks run them, and stopping them can win games.  And if that is not the case an there is no blue, they get pitched to the bazaar, anvil, or chrome mox.  

All that discard stuff is in there for a reason, not all of my cards are going to be useful in every match, that is why I gave myself ways to get rid of them.  Still looking for better ones though and any suggestions would be welcome.

Workshops decks often burst out of the gate with powerful artifacts on both turn one and two, my thought on it was a turn three rack and ruin on the crucible and the trinisphere.

I am very convinced that graveyard hate is far too low in proportion to the number of decks that rely on the graveyard to power themselves.  Two of the biggest cards in the game (will and welder) are totally reliant on the the graveyard.  Taking that away is more valuable than I feel the community realizes.  I have the furnaces in the main and will keep the crypts in the board.

I will look at Burninator.

[LUPO]

Built the deck and had a chance to play test is a lot.

There were some things that I liked and some things that I did not.  Off the bat the fireblasts and atleast 2-3 of the forks will get cut.  I definitly need the 4th squee, 4th Rack and Ruin (these played amazing in the main deck) and more crucibles.

From the comments of the guys I was playing with, they found that while I did a good job of dealing with threats as they presented themselves, I did not put enough pressure on my opponent to make it matter that I dealt with it as he would eventually go broken and there would be nothing i could do at that point to stop it.  My solution to that will be to find a way to apply more consistent pressure, be with some creatures or some artifacts that actually pressure my opponent.  Cant say what those are yet, but I am on the hunt.

In terms of play style, it was pretty smooth.  It played very similarly to what I had imagined.  It played a little akaward with a crucible out, meaning that while you choked your opponent, you also choked yourself as you could not really develop your board anymore.

A more global issue I would like to post on is graveyard removal.  I definitly think that it has a place and as I have said above is very undervalued.  I also learned that phyrexian furnace sucks at it.  Especially with Sac Lands and cantrips so prevalent, it is far too easy to play around the furnace when you can only hit one card per turn.  I am going to have to dig around to see what other sources I can find.

Any thoughts?