[Deck] Glimpse/Clamp-Kobold

[Imsomniac101]

@ Beta Male :
Man that is a horrible list. No wonder your a bit disappointed. You have no non-Black/non-Green spells and your not using land grant?

[BreathWeapon]

@ Beta Male :
Man that is a horrible list. No wonder your a bit disappointed. You have no non-Black/non-Green spells and your not using land grant?

This post is worthless,

Blue is not necessary. Beta-Male is demonstrating "out of the box" thinking, which is comendable, and you've retorted with nothing of value.

There is no reason to use Land Grant in this deck unless you are attempting to generate Storm aggressively. Many player's prefer not to reveal their hands to their opponent's or allow the opponent to FoW one of their critical mana sources.

No Rest For The Wicked alone is worth serious consideration. It's an unrestricted Yawgmoth's Will with Skull Clamp on the board.

@Beta-Male

Thank you for your input, I would have never of thought of No Rest For The Wicked. Please ignore the abrasiveness of the other posters in this thread.

[myhellfire1134]

Beta male i like No Rest for the Wicked but i strongly disagree with not using Land grant. Not only is it a free storm count but it gets you a land and can stop land screw. Alot of the time I noticed that revealing my hand really doesn't make much of a difference. Thasts jsut my 2 cents thought.

[LotusHead]

Obviously, there is no consensus of the Optimal Kobold deck yet, but Skullclamp and Glimpse of Nature are the obvious engines.

I had a BG Kobold deck for the local kiddies to play with (powered proxy stuff) from the earlier thread.  The deck works great, except agianst ForceOfWill.dec and Trinisphere.dec. Now, Trinisphere.dec is tossed out, until we see what the meta produces in it's place, but...

I sold my Kobolds to a local kid who had this breakthrough: Genesis Chamber and Coat of Arms.

Genesis Chamber is used in one of my T1 Proxy decks, Crushing Chamber.  A kid playing Crushing Chamber paused when contemplating playing Genesis Chamber (as both are Skullclamp decks) when facing Kobolds due to its own Skullclamps and free Kobolds.

Hence the breakthrough.

Kobolds using Genesis Chamber.  With each kobold played (with Chamber in play) you get a free 1/1 dude in addition to your Kobold.  This kid tried to do what Kobold decks try to do which is play stuff and draw cards.  His game plan was to put Kobolds on the field while clamping away Myr tokens left and right.  Then, instead of Tendrils (the norm for Kobold decks), he played Coat of Arms.

Now, for all of us experienced in Kobold decks, sometimes the deck just Goes Off, whether it be a broken opening hand or lack of opponent's Force of Wills, etc.  When Kobolds "go off", they usually draw their deck out, and do whatever they want.  In reality, the Kobold player's opponent may be sitting on 4 mana with Cunning Wish in hand for Stifle, and Kobolds may or may not have Mutliple Tendrils ready (when they go off), but Tendrils is just ONE Kill effect that Skullclamp/Glimps Kobolds deck can take.

The Point: Genesis Chamber made his deck different from all the lists so far in this thread (I forget if they appeared in the previous thread).  Genesis gave him twice as many Clamp Targets than he should have had.  His Kobolds just sat on the field, waiting for Kobolds to go off, while Myr after Myr got clamped away.  His build isn't completely geared to going off turn 1/2, although it does happen, but his lack of Tendrils as the kill and double the card drawing intrigue me.

Has anyone else tested/seen Kobolds with a non-storm kill that works?

If a Kobold build is "able to go off", which is the goal of all Kobold decks, is Tendrils of Agony THE kill card of choice, or could Coat of Arms and the attack step be viable?

For reference, his deck used BG tech, with 4 Skullclamp, 4 Glimpse of Nature, 2 Coat of Arms, 2 Genesis Chamber and 16 free creatures.

[epeeguy]

A combination of Genesis Chamber, Coat of Arms and either Concordant Crossroads or the Red version of it from Mirrodin would actually work as a kill method.  Given you can generate the initial mana for the Genesis Chamber, Coat and Crossroads relatively easily, you should be able to get enough creatures out that they kill in one attack.

It's a thought, and certainly a viable idea.  If anything, it could be an alternate win condition that is boarded in for Game 2.

[Imsomniac101]

Imsomniac101 wrote:
@ Beta Male :
Man that is a horrible list. No wonder your a bit disappointed. You have no non-Black/non-Green spells and your not using land grant?

Breath Weapon wrote:
This post is worthless,
Blue is not necessary. Beta-Male is demonstrating "out of the box" thinking, which is comendable, and you've retorted with nothing of value.

Since when did I say that Blue was necessary? I don't know how you got that statement.

Anyway I thought that people already knew this but let's go over why No Rest for the Wicked is not a great card to run in Kobolds.

a) No Rest for the Wicked needs a substancial amount of creatures in the grave (say 3+); which means that you must have already have had skullclamp on the board; which in turn means that you must have the mana available to clamp your returned creatures.

b) said card does not generate mana. It only generates card advantage when you already have Clamp on the board. Which means its a dead card until you have a clamp on the field and a substancial amount of mana and creatures to clamp.

c) the card costs 1B for goodness sakes. One of the most important things we look at in a card we're looking to put in our deck, is mana cost; and I don't think that at two mana No Rest for the Wicked does enough. I don't know about you but Diabolic Intent seems like a much better card at that cost.

[Beta-Male]

actually, No Rest does quite a bit more in the deck than it lets on.  also, diabolic intent is in the deck.  unrestricted demonic tutoring is fine, especially when you factor in the synergy with it and skullclamp on creatures with a toughness > 1.  

as for not using land grant, the list i posted's land base is a bit off from the current land base which iincludes 0 dual lands and 0 basic lands.  also, the lack of land grant is because its often just not necessary.

the list isn't optimal by a long shot, however its a good place to start when looking at a list that focuses on just pure speed.  its fundamental turn is 2 with turn 1 wins being more common than it would seem.  if i were to make any changes to the deck it would be to make room for maybe 2 or 3 more 0 cc creatures, possibly Phyrexian Walker or Shield Sphere, to reduce the chance of fizzling after the first glimpse.

all that said, my list is probably one of the faster lists, but that just means its got a farther way to go to be more optimal.

[Tristal]

It is much easier to deal with Coat of Arms than Tendrils of Agony.

[epeeguy]

It is much easier to deal with Coat of Arms than Tendrils of Agony.

That is true (especially since most decks at least pack Seal of Cleansing, if not Rack and Ruin).  A good alternative may then be Tribal Unity, which would also be able to use up mana from Gaea's Cradle/Tolarian Academy in order to pump the team of Kobolds up to lethal levels.  Overrun works as well in this capacity.  There's also Trumpet Blast and Tears of Rage (good for an all out, but final strike).

[Tristal]

A bunch of stuff that gets countered by Force of Will

Or you could play Tendrils of Agony.

[epeeguy]

Or you could play Tendrils of Agony.

Yes... but that's why they're alternate win conditions.  And sideboard cards only.

Personally, I prefer the Tendrils route myself; but I figured I'd entertain an alternate approach.  

[Imsomniac101]

Ok I've done a little bit more testing with No Rest for the Wicked, and I concede that it is better than it seems at first glance.

However one of the reasons why Beta-Male's list "just sat there doing nothing a lot of times", is that No Rest for the Wicked came in multiples in the opening hand. I suggest running 1 in the sideboard or 1 maindeck if you really feel the need to tutor for it. As of current I don't really have space for a copy of No Rest for the Wicked, and I don't want to take out a Cabal Therapy for 1.

[Rapalaman1]

I cant believe that no one else has been testing Quirion Dryad!? I have been playing with 4 in my build since I started and it has worked out superbly. It is a very steady secondary kill if you burn out with Glimpse or clamp. I have also found with the rise of Bird Sh!t decks and U/W Fish that the combination of Null Rod and especially Meddling Mage is too much for this deck to handle on a Tendrils basis alone.
Also, I have even thought about adding a lone Coat of Arms in the main ( they're in the side now for longer drawn out control games) because it sees like alot of times it would be just as devistating as any other secondary kill. But again it is more or less just another way for the deck to deal with Mage.

BTW:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Land Grant
3x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
1x Gaea's Cradle
4x Skullclamp
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Kobolds of Kehr Keep
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds
2x Night's Whisper
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Timetwister
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Quirion Dryad
The SB is incomplete except for 4x Multani's Presence and 4x Coat of Arms.

[epeeguy]

The inclusion of Quirion Dryad is an interesting choice, and certainly would allow the deck to have a different kill condition.  IMO, I think it is better put in the sideboard for the time being, as an alternate kill condition.

Anyhow, to focus on your build: I notice the distinct lack of tutors in your deck and the presence of only a single Tendrils of Agony.  I'm against this myself, and feel that this is not the correct move.  Having access to tutors, especially unrestricted ones (such as Diabolic Intent) is a good way to get the pieces that you need to combo out and be done.  Ostensibly, pure card drawing in the deck is plentiful between Glimpses and Skullclamps, and is topped off well with some restricted card drawing.  So, Night's Whisper doesn't really help the deck that much.

Furthermore, without tutors to dig for your single copy of Tendrils of Agony, you will not be able to combo out as consistently as you will need to do.  Because you don't have the best likelihood of drawing it, nor do you have any way to really get at it.  Hence why you'd need to run at least two, and probably three, even if you had access to tutors.  Without tutors... I feel that you can't combo out consistently enough, nor quickly enough.

Anyhow, on further testing, I really like only having three Skullclamps in the deck.  I've only had a few instances where a fourth one would have really mattered, and in most cases, I will still able to get two into play with just three in the deck.  So, I'm convinced that three is the optimal number here for the deck.  Four is just too many.

[Imsomniac101]

//NAME: Kobolds
        3 Bayou
        4 Land Grant
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Chrome Mox
        4 Dark Ritual
        2 Culling the Weak
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        1 Crop Rotation
        3 Diabolic Intent
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Entomb
        4 Glimpse of Nature
        3 Skullclamp
        2 Tendrils of Agony
        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
        4 Ornithopter
        1 Necropotence
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        2 Cabal Therapy
SB:  1 Cabal Therapy
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
SB:  3 Naturalize
SB:  3 Xantid Swarm
SB:  1 Skullclamp
SB:  1 Mana Vault
SB:  1 No Rest for the Wicked
SB:  3 Ground Seal

This deck has the ability to just combo out like LongDeath. The only thing that is holding this deck back is mana. Right now the deck needs more than anything else is extra Mox Jets. If somebody has a solution please post it.

[tito del monte]

@ insomniac: I might have missed something but i couldn't see either cradle or academy in your build, so is crop rotation really worth it?

also, i've been using songs of the damned for extra black mana, although it seems to have fallen out of favour in most builds. i generally go for the kill using yawgs will, so can clamp a load of critters until i'm ready to go of, then songs, then will, then songs again before recasting glimpse + kobalds from the graveyard. tends to generate more than enough black mana.

[Bibi]

I am testing this version since few weeks and it's really powerfull (more then only BG)

        1 Gaea's Cradle
        1 Library of Alexandria
        3 Tropical Island
        4 Bayou
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Skullclamp
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
        1 Fastbond
        1 Necropotence
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        2 Tendrils of Agony
        3 Land Grant
        4 Glimpse of Nature

I am playing only with cards I have, be sure Ancestrall, Moxens B/G/U and BL will be very helpfull.

Generally I kill turn 2 (sometime turn 1) if of course you don not meet FoW

[epeeguy]

This deck has the ability to just combo out like LongDeath. The only thing that is holding this deck back is mana. Right now the deck needs more than anything else is extra Mox Jets. If somebody has a solution please post it.

I would run Chromatic Spheres or one of the Odyssey Eggs that produces Black mana.  Because, that's about your surest way to make sure you hit all your Black mana to play out your Tendrils.

I'm also surprised that you are running Crop Rotation and not running either Gaea's Cradle (which would really work well in your deck) or Tolarian Academy (not quite as good).  While being able to cycle a Bayou for a Bayou isn't horrible... I think you need something that produces more than one mana at a time.

[Imsomniac101]

epeeguy wrote:
I would run Chromatic Spheres or one of the Odyssey Eggs that produces Black mana. Because, that's about your surest way to make sure you hit all your Black mana to play out your Tendrils.

I'm also surprised that you are running Crop Rotation and not running either Gaea's Cradle (which would really work well in your deck) or Tolarian Academy (not quite as good).

I don't think you really got the drift of my post. When I said that the deck needs more than anything else is extra Mox Jets is that the deck needs extra Black Mana Sources that costs 0. Hell, even extra copies of Land Grants will do.

As for not running Cradle while still keeping Crop Rotation. I cut cradle a while ago because it really wasnt doing much ( in part due to the decision I made to run this deck as more of a LongDeath type deck). The Rotation is like you say to turn a Bayou into a Bayou. Its more of a mana filter than anything.

The weakest cards in the deck are :
1x Chrome Mox
1x Crop Rotation

These need to be replaced with extra Black sources that costs 0.

[epeeguy]

I don't think you really got the drift of my post. When I said that the deck needs more than anything else is extra Mox Jets is that the deck needs extra Black Mana Sources that costs 0. Hell, even extra copies of Land Grants will do.

Actually I did; my point was, there aren't any good ways to get a "Mox Jet" mana source.  You're already running Lotus Petal.  You're already running Chrome Mox.  You could try Mox Diamond (that might have some synergy with Land Grant), but that's really it.

In all fairness, I think Chromatic Sphere is fine for your build.  You have plenty of ways to get mana into play; it's just a question of making sure you have enough ways to generate Black mana.  At least that's my assessment of your mana base.

[warble]

But I can't stand letting you punish yourself like this anymore.

Add in 4 Cabal Therapies MD, keep your 4 Duress, and put in a Mox Diamond.

Remove 2 Steelshapers, Cradle, 1 Clamp, and I would shaft necropotence and bargain

And kick my ass really hard because your deck just got 10x better.

You were wondering what to do with your Kobolds?  Turn them into discard dude, turn them into discard for free....

[Imsomniac101]

I will be going to Japan for 5 weeks, and I might have some spare time on my hands... so I was thinking of writing a primer on the deck. Might be a little bit pre-mature though...... and the deck will lose much of its surprise factor.....
Do you think its a good idea?

Also I will need some BUG and other builds to test as I've mainly worked on the BG version. Please PM me lists that you think are worthy. And also some secret tech that you've tested and think is worth a slot in the deck.  

Many thanks in advance.

[Imsomniac101]

Does anybody have a list for the Kobolds deck that Mike Hron was running at SCG Chicago? and also does anyone have the list from SCG VA (the one David Allen made T8 with?

[Jacob Orlove]

Does anybody have a list for the Kobolds deck that Mike Hron was running at SCG Chicago? and also does anyone have the list from SCG VA (the one David Allen made T8 with?

Please don't post decklist requests, even inside threads. It's a big waste of time for everyone else.

With that said, here's Hron's list (they had the decks in table form, so any inaccuracies are probably mine):

12 Kobolds
8 0cc artifact guys
4 esg
4 cradle
3 city of brass
1 academy
4 duals
10 artifact acceleration
4 skullclamp
1 candelabra of tawnos
4 glimpse of nature
1 crop rotation
1 yawgwill
1 demonic
1 tendrils
1 walk
1 twister
1 wheel
1 ancestral
1 hurkyl's

SB: mostly unknown, but it included Squee, Goblin Nabob, Starke of Rath, Gerrard Capashen, Mirri, Cat Warrior, and Hanna, Ship's Navigator.

The VA t8 is here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8777
I don't know what list you're talking about, though.

[Machinus]

Squee, Goblin Nabob, Starke of Rath, Gerrard Capashen, Mirri, Cat Warrior, and Hanna, Ship's Navigator

Did the team ever get sided in?

[Luiggi]

Hi everyone! This is my first post, so I just wanted to say that these messageboards are a great read, and that I'm looking forward to contributing to them as much as possible.

Regarding Mike Hron's Kobold list, the list from the table that Jacob posted has 64 cards. Would it be fair to assume that there was just a mistake with what JP posted in the StarCity coverage article, or does it make sense for the deck to run 4 extra cards?

[Imsomniac101]

I think Mr Orlove was joking; especially in regards to the sideboard. No Ritual? Must be a joke.

[jpmeyer]

I think Mr Orlove was joking; especially in regards to the sideboard. No Ritual? Must be a joke.

There shouldn't be any duals in the deck (dropping it to 60 cards) and he seriously did have the crew of the Weatherlight in his sideboard.

[Luiggi]

Also, according to the decklist comparisons, Mike Hron was running a lone Brain Freeze as his kill condition, rather than Tendrils of Agony, which would explain the lack of Dark Rituals that Insomniac101 was referring to.

Luiggi

[Imsomniac101]

That would explain the lack of Rituals. Has anybody tested Hron's list? looks rather janky. How fast is it? How consistent is it?