[Decks] Some Lists that might interest you all

[Smmenen]

Here are some lists from my MWS archive.  They are here in case anyone here is interested and wants to continue building storm combo decks.  No comments are provided and I thought someone might be curious.  The last list is mostly just a catalogue of cards I thought might be useful.  That's all.

Dday Variant (suggested by Justin Walters)



// Lands
    1  Bayou
    1  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    2  Night's Whisper
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Land Grant
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Spoils of the Vault
    4  Chromatic Sphere
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Darkwater Egg
    4  Doomsday

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Black Vise
SB: 4  Force of Will
SB: 2  Chain of Vapor
SB: 2  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4  Goblin Charbelcher
SB: 1  Oxidize
SB: 1  Elvish Spirit Guide

Infernal Contract Variant


// Lands
    1  Bayou
    1  Gemstone Mine
    1  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Land Grant
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Spoils of the Vault
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Chromatic Sphere
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Infernal Contract
    4  Darkwater Egg
    1  Retract

Variant #3:
Creatures
  4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Chrome Mox
  1 Mana Crypt
  1 Sol Ring
  1 Mana Vault
  1 Demonic Consultation
  1 Yawgmoth's Will
  4 Tendrils of Agony
  1 Black Lotus
  1 Mox Emerald
  1 Mox Jet
  1 Mox Pearl
  1 Mox Ruby
     1 Mox Sapphire
  4 Land Grant
  1 Lion's Eye Diamond
  4 Cabal Ritual
  4 Dark Ritual
  4 Spoils of the Vault
  1 Lotus Petal
  4 Chromatic Sphere
  4 Desperate Research
  1 Ancestral Recall
  4 Brainstorm
  4 Infernal Contract

Lands
  1 Bayou
  2 Gemstone Mine
  1 Tropical Island

Variant 4:
// Lands
    1  Bayou
    1  Tropical Island

// Spells
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Land Grant
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Chromatic Sphere
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    4  Spoils of the Vault
    4  Doomsday
    4  Conjurer's Bauble
    4  Fade from Memory

Variant 5 with Red:
// Lands
    1  Bayou
    1  Gemstone Mine
    1  Taiga

// Creatures
    3  Tinder Wall
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    4  Night's Whisper
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Land Grant
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Spoils of the Vault
    4  Chromatic Sphere
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Desperate Ritual
    4  Pentad Prism

Random Decklist


// Lands
    1  Bayou
    3  Archaeological Dig

// Creatures
    4  Ornithopter
    4  Priest of Gix
    4  Blood Pet
    4  Initiates of the Ebon Hand (1)
    1  Elvish Spirit Guide
    4  Kobolds of Kher Keep

// Spells
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Carnival of Souls
    4  Songs of the Damned
    4  Skullclamp
    4  Skulltap
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Mana Crypt
    4  Culling the Weak
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Chrome Mox
    4  Cabal Ritual
    4  Land Grant
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Spoils of the Vault

I'm sure there were other lists.  But here are some for perusal if you care about that sort of thing.

[Lost In Admiration]

This is very interesting.  Thanks, Steve!

[Imsomniac101]

Does this mean you are giving up on storm combo decks Steve? Cuz that will be really sad

[ruken]

In regards to the amusing 'pile' at the end of the list - why not fit in a few Diabolic Intents, since there's a glut of creatures in the deck?  Seems like a few Demonic Tutors would be better than just one, and it'd be another way to plink off those pesky Ornithopters.  Intent's gotta be better than Skulltap, at the same casting cost.

[Whatever Works]

In regards to the amusing 'pile' at the end of the list - why not fit in a few Diabolic Intents, since there's a glut of creatures in the deck?  Seems like a few Demonic Tutors would be better than just one, and it'd be another way to plink off those pesky Ornithopters.  Intent's gotta be better than Skulltap, at the same casting cost.

The last list was just a catalog of cards he considered interesting.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one using Priest of Gix and Blood Pet in Storm Combo, I've found them to be excellent additions in Glmpse of Nature/Skull Clamp decks. At the very least, they are SO much better than Tinder Wall, Shieldsphere and Ornithopter.

I'm surprised Diabolic Intent isn't on your list, Demonic Tutor 2-5 in Kobolds is really good.

Edit: Infernal Contract looks awesome, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts behind it. It looks like an excellent way for Kobolds to generate "umph" outside of Glimpse and Clamp.

Thanks again for dropping your lists, these look like they will all be a lot of fun to play at work

[Anders Noer]

I'm surprised you havent tested Lava Dart in a Tendrils build. It looks interesting to me.

1. It costs 1 mana total.

2. It does 2 points of damage, which can handle problem creatures in a pinch. (Goblin Welder, Meddling Mage, True Believer, Voidmage Prodigy, Spiketail Hatchling and Wormfang Manta (ok just kidding) come to mind)

3. It ups the storm count by 2. Most of the time being: "do 6 pts of damage" for R. (this part 3 here, is obviously the reason to play it - the other benefits are nice, but this is what makes it interesting in the first place.)

4. It's drawback requires a Badlands or Taiga in play, but Polluted Delta and a black core or Land Grant, could work around this. A deck that wins in the first 1-3 turns doesn't care if it loses a land, when it goes off.

Any thoughts on this ?

EDIT: On another note, Coffin Purge has the same potential, being on color and doing 4 points of damage for BB. It might be better due to being on color.

[Koffie]

I think you forget Tinder wall is still better, for one green mana (which fits excellent with ESG) can generate 2 mana! The gix guy should sound great but in fact he still costs 3 to play which is a bit much with glimpses of natures decks. However Blood pet sounds great, it costs 1 black mana which can sack to it self however with clamp it already dies, I would rather seeing blood pet was 0/2

However yes theyre better then ornis or shieldies.

Diabolic intent/demonic tutor playing 5 times total wouldnt sounds reasonable, you suddenly would already draw a lot of cards, most likely the cards you need (if you got a decent deck), i would say playing 3 total is the max (including dem. tutor)

[Koffie]

I'm surprised you havent tested Lava Dart in a Tendrils build. It looks interesting to me.

1. It costs 1 mana total.

2. It does 2 points of damage, which can handle problem creatures in a pinch. (Goblin Welder, Meddling Mage, True Believer, Voidmage Prodigy, Spiketail Hatchling and Wormfang Manta (ok just kidding) come to mind)

3. It ups the storm count by 2. Most of the time being: "do 6 pts of damage" for R. (this is obviously the reason to play it - the other benefits are nice, but this makes it interesting in the first place.)

4. It's drawback requires a Badlands in play, but Polluted Delta and a black core, could work around this. A deck that wins in the first 1-3 turns doesn't care if it loses a land, when it goes off.

Any thoughts on this ?

Hey thats an excellent idea you got there
I play some basic clamp/glimpse deck with a splash of Red, works great. Having this one next it would work fine with my taiga

[BreathWeapon]

I think you forget Tinder wall is still better, for one green mana (which fits excellent with ESG) can generate 2 mana! The gix guy should sound great but in fact he still costs 3 to play which is a bit much with glimpses of natures decks. However Blood pet sounds great, it costs 1 black mana which can sack to it self however with clamp it already dies, I would rather seeing blood pet was 0/2

However yes theyre better then ornis or shieldies.

Diabolic intent/demonic tutor playing 5 times total wouldnt sounds reasonable, you suddenly would already draw a lot of cards, most likely the cards you need (if you got a decent deck), i would say playing 3 total is the max (including dem. tutor)

The last thing any Combo deck needs currently is more mana acceleration, there is enough of it in this format.

Yes, Tinder Wall generates RR for G, but that doesn't make it a good card. That G Mana could have easily been spent on either another Glimpse or Crop Rotation for Gaea's Cradle, which is much better than net one R mana. Tinder Wall is only useful in decks that utilize Desperate Ritual and Wheel of Fortune or Goblin Welders etc. It's simply better to use G mana for Xantid Swarms or Glimpse.

What deck wouldn't play 5 Demonic Tutors if it could? The question isn't whether or not you need them when your going off, it's whether or not you need them to go off. Kobolds can't compete with Glimpse and Clamp alone versus Force of Will and Duress (And now Disrupting Shoal) I don't know about you, but I am not willing to risk Top Decking with a deck that has 12  0c 0/1 creatures. I don't know if I will play 4 Diabolic Intents or not, but I don't see why you wouldn't test the deck first with 4 instead of picking a completely arbitrary number like 2 and saying it's the better choice.

Speaking of which, not a single one of those lists is using Glimpse of Nature. Got something cooking Steve

[That0neguy]

Diabolic intent would be interesting since it would be just like burning wish was in long.dec it could fetch will or tendrils or grab another bussiness spell and if while playing it you are drawing 2 cards off a clamp it would probably be better.

Also steve has said before (on SCG) that he thought that kobald clamp was a good deck.

[Smmenen]

Does this mean you are giving up on storm combo decks Steve? Cuz that will be really sad

No, I'm not giving up - but I'm hoping to pass the torch a bit.  

I personally have hit a wall.  The decks i've been designing are so difficult that I can't optimally play them in tournament circumstances in a reasonable time.  I had this problem with Dday and Meandeck Tendrils.  It's exciting that there actually is a wall, a skill barrier that I can't overcome with T1 combo yet.  But it's frustrating at the same time.    Again, it's not that I can't play these decks reasonably well or that they are even that difficult to play most of the time.  It's those times that they require real finesse that makes all the difference.  And in those situations, you can't just play them reasonably well - you have to be a master.


I know that if I could play the decks optimally in a tournament, I'd be a total badass with them, but I simply can't do that.  As a result, it takes me forever to make a play.  When I do make a play, it's correct unless I've been ordered to play faster, in which case I fuck it up.  

What needs to happen is that someone needs to step up with the elements in place, with some of the ideas I've been promoting and contunue the development (like Limoges is).  But what's more, someone needs to be doing this who is actually smart enough to be able to pilot the deck in a tournament as well.  I think the potential is there.  The cards I identified are a goldmine of potential.

[myhellfire1134]

heres my small changes to the lists he posted. Hopefully these help. becuase I lvoe storm combo and I have a good bit of skil with them. Im sorry to say Thse dont have any playtesting but Im working on that.

// Lands
1  Bayou
1  Tropical Island

// Creatures
4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Chrome Mox
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Vault
2  Night's Whisper
1  Chain Of vapor
1  Rebuild
1  Demonic Consultation
1  Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4  Brainstorm
4  Tendrils of Agony
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
4  Land Grant
1  Lion's Eye Diamond
3  Cabal Ritual
4  Dark Ritual
3  Spoils of the Vault
4  Chromatic Sphere
1  Lotus Petal
4 Darkwater Egg
4  Doomsday

This deck the changes are small. I dont like spoils as much as nights whisper. Also I would like some sort of bounce liek chain of vapor. Not only is it defence but it bounces mana crypt whihc turns into more colored mana from an egg. Thats my prefernce again Im going to do more testing later. I think on Chain of Vapor and One rebuild might workj out.


Infernal Contract Variant

// Lands
1 Bayou
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
4  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
1  Demonic Tutor
2  night's whisper
1  Chrome Mox
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Vault
1  Demonic Consultation
1  Yawgmoth's Will
4  Tendrils of Agony
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
4  Land Grant
1  Lion's Eye Diamond
4  Cabal Ritual
4  Dark Ritual
2  Spoils of the Vault
1  Lotus Petal
4  Chromatic Sphere
1  Ancestral Recall
4  Brainstorm
4  Infernal Contract
4  Darkwater Egg
1  Retract

I really liked this version as is. I made some small changes. Like adding Ancient Tomb. Its only an experiment. It was really hard for this list. Again I opt for Nights whisper over Spoils of the vault. I hate spoils death.

Variant #3:
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Land Grant
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 nights whisper
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Desperate Research
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Contract

Lands
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Acedemy

I actually Like the the desperate research. Really that with the other tutors is enough. Spoils is just another way to kills yourself. Acedemy is another source of alot of mana. Its jsut an idea. Ill post my versins once i have done some gold fishing.

Variant 4:
// Lands
1  Bayou
1  Tropical Island

Creature
3 Disicple of the Vault

// Spells
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Chrome Mox
1  Black Lotus
1  Lion's Eye Diamond
1  Sol Ring
1  Lotus Petal
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
4  Dark Ritual
4  Cabal Ritual
4  Land Grant
1  Ancestral Recall
4  Brainstorm
4  Chromatic Sphere
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Demonic Consultation
1  Demonic Tutor
4  Tendrils of Agony
2  Spoils of the Vault
4  Doomsday
4  Conjurer's Bauble
1 Helm Of awakening
1 Infernal Contract
3 desperate research

I want Disicple of the vault. It can kil lwith all of the artifacts going to the graveyard. It also make s it so your storm count doesnt have to go as high. So for one mana it takes 1 spell of your need count and has the potenial to take of many many more. Also I like the idea of being able to go into the doomsday combo kill with contract and helm. Over all it makes life easier. Can you guys help me on what to cut for the last desperate research.

Variant 5 with Red:
// Lands
1  Bayou
1  Gemstone Mine
1  Taiga

// Creatures
3  Tinder Wall
3  Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
1  Mana Vault
3  Night's Whisper
1  Demonic Consultation
1  Yawgmoth's Will
4  Tendrils of Agony
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
4  Land Grant
1  Lion's Eye Diamond
4  Cabal Ritual
4  Dark Ritual
3  Spoils of the Vault
4  Chromatic Sphere
1  Lotus Petal
3  Desperate Ritual
3  Pentad Prism
3 Shadowblood Egg
2 Moss Fire Egg

I like the egg idea and Both eggs are on colors. Really Its a hopeful idea but I dont know how it will work. Again I will post better listes whem I have doen more goldfishing. These are changes that seemed like they would work. Thank you for these ideas Smmenen and I would like to know what you think personnaly. Thank you. SO what does everyone think.

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

I do not understand the reason for most of this post. I mean, at Waterbury all but one Meandeck member top eighted. I top eighted at Waterbury, and it's not that hard. How could you blatantly scrub out at a major tournament, then claim the deck is viable and post several topics of it? I thought this site filtered trash, but apparently not. I know Meandeck is a respected, strong team, but come on. Just because you're in a team, or have played for ten years, you can occasionally just build a deck that doesn't work. This just happens to be that occasion.

I goldfished the deck and really did turn up first turn kills fifty percent of the time. Then, I got an interesting idea. I put 52 Islands, 4 force of will and 4 brainstorm in a deck, and pretended Force could pitch an Island. The kill ratio dramatically decreased. I killed first turn around 25-30 percent. The point is, why make combo faster? Why not just play Dragon, an established combo deck, with strong disruption. There are some players who build onto the format, and some players who bitch about it, that is why I respect your exploration. However, you are building the wrong way.

[orgcandman]

I goldfished the deck and really did turn up first turn kills fifty percent of the time. Then, I got an interesting idea. I put 52 Islands, 4 force of will and 4 brainstorm in a deck, and pretended Force could pitch an Island. The kill ratio dramatically decreased. I killed first turn around 25-30 percent.

I know rite? Why did people work on control decks like slaver, 4cC and tog? We should have just left keeper the way it was and played that.

Interestingly enough, I put Sui together, and pretended that there were good cards in it and the win % dramatically increased. Why don't people just play keeper or modified sui? What's the point in advancing decks?

[IShHmokeDaNKs]

The First Law of Debate: Do not ask rhetorical questions

Interestingly enough, I put Sui together, and pretended that there were good cards in it and the win % dramatically increased. Why don't people just play keeper or modified sui? What's the point in advancing decks?

There is no point to making strong decks into bad ones. If you can give me an example, any example of when nothing changed about the format, so someone built a new deck. This new deck can kill the same speed as Belcher, is worse than TPS and Dragon, scrubbed out at a major tournament (the only one it was played it) and literally dies to Force of Will. Now, imagine the team that produced this deck publishes it on TMD, meanwhile providing no evidence that the deck is actually good. I really like Jacob Orlove and Saucey, but this is just pure bs.

had they taken a deck that *might* be unplayable, say Keeper. They take Keeper and optimize it, and take half the top 8 at Waterbury. This is a different example led by meandeck. Now, is innovation still a positive force when it is being used to build bad decks? Oops, I just asked a rhetorical question.
-ISD

[Saucemaster]

There is no point to making strong decks into bad ones. If you can give me an example, any example of when nothing changed about the format, so someone built a new deck. This new deck can kill the same speed as Belcher, is worse than TPS and Dragon, scrubbed out at a major tournament (the only one it was played it) and literally dies to Force of Will. Now, imagine the team that produced this deck publishes it on TMD, meanwhile providing no evidence that the deck is actually good. I really like Jacob Orlove and Saucey, but this is just pure bs.

had they taken a deck that *might* be unplayable, say Keeper. They take Keeper and optimize it, and take half the top 8 at Waterbury. This is a different example led by meandeck. Now, is innovation still a positive force when it is being used to build bad decks? Oops, I just asked a rhetorical question.
-ISD

I think you've managed to misunderstand us on almost every single point we've made, which has got to be some sort of record.

Meandeck Tendrils is faster than Belcher.  It *is* worse than TPS and Dragon, you're right, but it doesn't at all die to Force of Will.  We published the deck, both on SCG and TMD, because there was a lot of pressure for us to do so.  People were interested, in part because we failed with it.  We have never claimed to provide evidence that the deck is good, because we do not claim that the deck is good.  We claim that it's frighteningly fast, which is different.  In any event, the deck still has great theoretical interest in Vintage because of what it says about the level of savagery the format has adapted to deal with.

And you know what?

None of this has any relevance to this thread at all.

This thread is not about Meandeck Tendrils.  Smmenen decided not to pursue any of the lists above, but some of them may still have potential.  He could have horded them--in fact, some of us wish he had, even if we don't really believe that anything will come of them any time soon.  Instead, he decided to give them to other people, to see what they might be able to do with them.  I know, what an asshole, right?

[orgcandman]

The Zeroth Law of Debate: When Providing Examples, Make Sure They are Proper Examples

This will be my last post on the subject, because I don't want the thread to degenerate. PM me if you want to continue this subject.

Your test was to show that the deck has trouble winning through force of will, or at least, that's what I'm guessing your __intended__ example was. However, I have a few key points that you should pay attention to:

1) Pretending that every card in your deck pitches to force is useless. A real deck WON'T have every card pitchable to force. 52 islands, 4 force and 4 brainstorm under that scenario, pretending, should yeild a 100% disruption vs. any turn 1 combo.

2) Even if your test conditions were good, they wouldn't have any impact because you're specifically attempting to hate that deck by aggressively mulliganning into hate for it to try and prove a point. While this may have some merit, the fact that you put some imaginary rules into your test suite make your tests only valid in Never Never land.

3) You completely missed a lot of the points that people were trying to make. When I stated that I put sui together, it was "secret code" for "Your test results use some made up rules and constraints, and while they may have some merit to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, to people actually playing decks, your tests are stupid because they prove nothing except that force of will is a good card."

If you want to continue on this complete offshoot of the thread, by all means PM me. Otherwise, I think I've made my point.

=================
On another note:

I commend Steve for releasing lists that he otherwise would have kept secret. I think that shows a major interest in keeping the veins of Type 1 flowing with lifeblood, very different from the image people are trying to push out there (IE: that he's pushing to make SCG money). Hats off!

Aaron[/b]