[Deck Discussion]R/G Tempo, revisited

[[supa_t(im)]]

Since the last thread got closed (rightfully so) and we didn't quite finish the discussion, I've decided to start a new thread to finish some things we missed.

Here is the old thread.

Highlights of Old thread:
Basic Conclusions
Blood Moon is bad because there are too many basic lands currently, and the 3cc is prohibitive for an aggressive deck.

Root Maze is the best MD hate card because it effects all decks.

Elvish spirit guide is an important inclusion in this deck.  It allows you do things 2nd, even 1st turn under trinisphere, and can acclerate the deck to help it win faster.  It also can serve as a crappy 2/2 if you don't need it.  Never a dead card.

Lotus and on color moxen should be used.  The tempo advantage the grant is one of the things that this deck uses to compete with card advantage.

The R/G player MUST be a skilled metagamer.  For this reason, there will probably be no "standard" decklist.  There will be recurring themes that should be in every R/G Tempo list, but there may be slots to play around with based on an individual's metagame.  This especially holds true for the side board.

Anti-Oath tech/conclusions:
Maze of Ith isn't effective b/c it gets wasted, does not produce mana, and takes up precious SB slots.

For an aggro deck, getting rid of orchard tokens isn't effective since you should be winning with creatures anyway.  This means cards like Goblin Bombardment, Claws of Gix, Spawning Pit, and Skull Clamp should not be used to remove tokens.

Naturalize is probably the best tool we have against Oath.  There is some debate whether to MD it, SB it, or a combination of the two.

The best strategy to fight Oath is to play early disruption and try to race them with your creatures.  Rancor is an important card here since it makes even their orchard tokens into beatsticks.

The Oath matchup is difficult, but certainly not unwinible.  Sometimes Oath will just win, but often enough they don't get the combo going fast enough, or you can stall them long enough to get the right amount damage through.

Anti-Workshop tech/conclusions
The best card against Workshop decks is Artifact Mutation in the SB.  It allows you to greatly swing CA in your favor by destroying their stuff and getting a whole lot in return.

Root maze is important when playing against Workshop decks because they get their Shops coming into play tapped, and more importantly their trinisphere.   It also stalls their 5/3's from blocking for the only turn they can.

There wasn't much discussion on the Stax matchup, although I assume that it is one of the better matchup since this deck has some of the best artifact removal in the game.

Rancor helps here as well against the workshop aggro matchup.  The rancor makes your weenies into formidable foes, and can stand toe to toe with juggs.

Needs more discussion, but I believe workshop based decks are a favorable matchup for R/G Tempo.

Anti-Welder tech/conclusions
This deck has a lot of tools to fight welder based decks, similar to workshop based decks.  There is a lot of overlap between the two because workshops and welders tend to be found in the same deck.  But not always.

Grim Lavamancer is good in this matchup, as he does not like welders.  At least 4 burn spells also come in handy keeping the welders off the table.

Root maze is important here because it makes welded artifacts CIPT leaving you a chance to naturalize/artifact mutation them.

Anti-Combo tech/conclusions
This is are least favorable matchup, but with MD root maze we still have some sort of chance.

Root maze is good here because it makes storm combos mana producers come into play tapped, which slows them down.  They can still play around it, but it makes game one at least possible for us to win.  Against dragon, it completely kills their win condition, too bad they can always draw the game if they have no creatures in the yard.

Pyrostatic Pillar should be SBed for the combo matchup.  (Possibly the control matchup)  It makes every spell they cast turn into a shock to the dome.  Against combo, you need to resolve at least one threat under pillar to keep the pressure on.

Needs Some More Discussion
Creature Base
The creatures are important because, well, thats how you win.  We basically decided that we must have the following creatures in the deck:
4 River Boa
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape

Some other creatures brought up in the last thread were:
Troll Ascetic --> seems kinda slow and mana intensive
Call of the Herd -->  slow, but creates card advantage
Skyshroud Elite --> similar to kird ape, but I can't help but feeling that they suffer from the same fate as Blood Moon
Hidden creatures --> promising, but at the same time conditional
Elvish Lyrist --> simple vanilla that can help with the oath matchup
Viashino Heretic --> slow, but good against artifact based decks
Treetop Village --> CIPT negated by the root maze, but some have expressed dislike because they say it slows mana curve and can cause unwanted mulligans
some others, but those had the most promise.

General Utility
There seemed to be only 2 cards that were completely decided on for MD utility:
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Rancor

Bolts let you take out anything from welders to juggs for 1 mana, so they are pretty essential.

Rancor must be included to make the deck aggressive without having to use fatter creatures.  Helps to race other decks and doesn't give up card advantage when it dies.  Makes all your creature trade with juggernauts.

There is some debate on other MD utility cards.
Naturalize in MD vs SB --> my opinion is that it is better in the MD because it improves one of the decks worst matchups, and is never a dead card.
4 Grim and 4 burn vs 4 Grim and 8 burn --> I like 8 burn spells MD because it offers more direct damage, more ways to kill welder, and may offer more utility based on the burn card you use.
Possibly Ankh of Mishra MD to offer more uncounterable damage --> this seems like one of those metagame choices that a player must think about when buiding the deck.
Stormbind --> this card was brought up a little.  I think it is too slow, but some people swear by it.

Side Board tech
There are 2-3 cards that everyone agreed on for the SB.
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Naturalize (if you didn't MD them)

these numbers could vary depending on if you MD some of them.

Hopefuls:
Null Rod --> not as powerful as it once was, but still a valid SB option.  It still helps against combo, having 11-12 cards that give them a headache can be good.  Helps against control slaver, it shuts off slaver, trike and pentavus (depending on the build).  Some say that the matchup doesn't require null rod though.
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast --> can be good against blue based control and some combo decks.  Some have fould its usefulness dwindling.
Ground Seal --> more help for the Dragon and welder matches.  Not sure if its needed.

Mana base
At first people were only using 2 taiga, then many people switched back to 4.  I'm not really sure of the discussion going on about the manabase.

Also Land Grant vs. Wooded Foothills --> I would choose wooded foothills because a counterable fetch is not cool.  So is revealing your hand to your opponent.  I think wooded foothills are still playable even with MD rootmaze.

As mentioned before, this deck needs proper accelerants:  Lotus, Moxen, ESG.

The deck also needs a full complement of strip effects to help with the control aspect and make root maze more potent.

Conclusion
With the above knowledge I give you a skeleton decklist with some spots open that will be filled in with discussion.

24 Land/Mana
2-4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills/Land Grant
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2-3 Forest
2-3 Mountain
4 ESG
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus

16 Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 River Boa
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kird Ape

12 Utility/Hate
4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Root Maze

8 SB
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

Which leaves room for 8 more cards MD and 7 SB.

Personally I use 4 Naturalize and 4 Magma Jet MD, but since it is such a metagamable deck I wanted to leave it as just a skeleton.

I hope this puts the last thread in a more understandable format, and also keep the R/G discussion going.  I feel I've expressed my views under the "Needs More Discussion" section.  If you feel I left out anything from the other thread, please bring it up.

Thanks.

[Razor]

Question re: Pyrostatic Pillar

I have not tested this card versus Combo, yet.  I imagine that it certainly wrecks non-Tendrils-based Combo decks.  I am quite concened that Tendrils, in particular 4-Tendrils.Dec, can simply out-life us with even one storm-4 Tendrils, effectively hi-jacking our Pyro Pillar.  Is this hunch correct?

Comments:

Red Elemental Blast is still worth siding because of the prevalence of broken blue spells in MTG.  I use these over Pyro Pillar because they hurt Combo and Control more reliably than Pyro Pillar if my hunch on Tendrils is correct.

Hystrodon is working amazing as my hybridized beatstick/draw engine and dodges Mana Drain, to boot.

4 Taiga are better than 2 imo.

Root Maze is in my sideboard because it is only reliably good when you get to go first.  Hence, I run no Treetops main.

Naturalize is really only better than Artifact Mutation versus Oath which is not that prevalent an archetype anywhere is it?  So I run 4 Art.Mutation main, siding the 4 Naturalize, of course.  Mutation offers virtual card-advantage.

Boa is weak in the Plow-meta we live in imo.  I replaced him with Yoda to minimize card disadvantage in the face of Plow.  You'll never enjoy Rancor'ing anything more than Yoda himself (ie.Troll Ascetic) versus Removal.Dec.

4 Wastes, 4 Taiga, 4 Wooded, 1 Strip Mine, 4 Grim Lavamancers, 4 Gorilla Shamans, 4 Rancor and 4 Lightning Bolts are maindeck musts imo.  You also want 4 of either Naturalize or Mutation.

I have found Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Herd, and Hidden Ancients consistently reliable since before Mirrodin.  Are they not superior to weenies like: Boas, Kird Apes and Skyshroud Elite?

I don't think this deck needs to worry about Welder or Dragon enough to worry about siding a card as narrow as Ground Seal; Naturalize is more versatile.

Is there better anti-Aggro tech than Pyrokinesis SB?

[giddygorgon]

Is there better anti-Aggro tech than Pyrokinesis SB?

Would Cave-In do what you are looking for? (Although it does not hit Juggernaut, It will beat weenie aggro decks)

[Polynomial P]

I like the idea of this deck, and I think 4 naturalize MD are mandatory with Oath and all sorts of artifact decks. My other MD suggestion would be Fire/Ice to take out those pesky welders/meddling mages.

Is 3 Root Maze main enough? I mean drawing one is great, but getting a second one is redundant and clogs the deck up, especially if you are trying to race an opponent with out any card draw.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Question re: Pyrostatic Pillar

I have not tested this card versus Combo, yet.  I imagine that it certainly wrecks non-Tendrils-based Combo decks.  I am quite concened that Tendrils, in particular 4-Tendrils.Dec, can simply out-life us with even one storm-4 Tendrils, effectively hi-jacking our Pyro Pillar.  Is this hunch correct?

Pillar is still good against storm combo because they have to play cheap spells to go off.  How many successful storm combo decks run more than 1 tendrils?  Then they death wish for yawg's win right? They are really put on their heels anyway if you play pillar and a threat.

Comments:

Red Elemental Blast is still worth siding because of the prevalence of broken blue spells in MTG.  I use these over Pyro Pillar because they hurt Combo and Control more reliably than Pyro Pillar if my hunch on Tendrils is correct.

I would use both.

Hystrodon is working amazing as my hybridized beatstick/draw engine and dodges Mana Drain, to boot.

Hystrodon could work.  I dismissed it last thread, but now that I think of it, dodging mana drain is nice, its got a heftly power/toughness, and has a good ability.  The three mana might not be bad either since its colorless.  Could be worth testing.

4 Taiga are better than 2 imo.

I tend to agree, but wasteland is probably the most played land after island.

Root Maze is in my sideboard because it is only reliably good when you get to go first.  Hence, I run no Treetops main.

It still is effective going second, and it hates against every deck in the format.  If you don't run root maze what hate do you run MD?

Naturalize is really only better than Artifact Mutation versus Oath which is not that prevalent an archetype anywhere is it?  So I run 4 Art.Mutation main, siding the 4 Naturalize, of course.  Mutation offers virtual card-advantage.

I like naturalize MD because Oath is one of the decks worst matchups.  Since it is a very powerful budget deck currently, you WILL see it at large events.  I don't want to roll over after 2 matches because I couldn't win game one of two unlucky Oath mathcups.  It also isn't dead against any deck in the format because it takes out artifacts, therefore still giving you removal game 1 of pesky artifacts such as 3sphere, wire, and stack.  It also helps against pesky random decks like parfait.

Boa is weak in the Plow-meta we live in imo.  I replaced him with Yoda to minimize card disadvantage in the face of Plow.  You'll never enjoy Rancor'ing anything more than Yoda himself (ie.Troll Ascetic) versus Removal.Dec.

I don't think swords should make a difference whether or not to play boa.  You have enough critters to make 1 boa farming not really matter.  I just feel that the 1gg of troll and the 1g regenerate ability keeps it from being playable.  Troll likes to be drained, and how many decks that run white don't run blue?  Still, I listed him up there for discussion.

4 Wastes, 4 Taiga, 4 Wooded, 1 Strip Mine, 4 Grim Lavamancers, 4 Gorilla Shamans, 4 Rancor and 4 Lightning Bolts are maindeck musts imo.  You also want 4 of either Naturalize or Mutation.

Agreed.

I have found Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Herd, and Hidden Ancients consistently reliable since before Mirrodin.  Are they not superior to weenies like: Boas, Kird Apes and Skyshroud Elite?

Boas are necessary because anything not running workshop runs island.  They can't always remove it, usually they can't remove him.  The others probably have some wiggle room, but those are the cards people have been using.

I don't think this deck needs to worry about Welder or Dragon enough to worry about siding a card as narrow as Ground Seal; Naturalize is more versatile.

You're probably right

Is there better anti-Aggro tech than Pyrokinesis SB?

What for?  This is probably the only aggro deck that still exists.  Fish is dead, madness is dead, FCG is dead.  8 burn MD helps those mathcups, so if you are worried about them, use some extra burn.  If you really want one maybe Simoon.

Is 3 Root Maze main enough? I mean drawing one is great, but getting a second one is redundant and clogs the deck up, especially if you are trying to race an opponent with out any card draw.

I think 4 are necessary since you are counting on 1 to get countered and you need another one.  Having them in your opening hand is another thing that you really want, and having 4 makes that easier.

About Fire/Ice, its one of those metagame cards that should be considered.  If you see a lot of aggro decks then 4 more burn is good, and fire/ice is sure valid.

[xrobx]

MANA BASE

At first people were only using 2 taiga, then many people switched back to 4. I'm not really sure of the discussion going on about the manabase.

Well...read on...

4 Taiga are better than 2 imo.

I have to disagree strongly with this unfortunatly.  In my opinion, I strongly believe that one of the key factors of making this deck good, consistant, and competitive is the fact that it runs basic lands, and therefore makes more of the opponents deck useless against it (wastelands, strips, crucible lock).  At the same time, I'm going to say that you must be very careful playing with 2 taigas.  Often times I'll go through the whole game and not even fetch out a taiga, simply because it is a bad play to do so.  Under root maze, your dual is protected much more as it allows an extra turn for you to beat with.  Also, from my testing, I'm giving fireblast a shot and it loves to sneak around their desperate wasteland, and the look on the opponents face when he finally gets to waste your taiga is priceless, as it is a waste of a land drop for him.  Again, I'm arguing 2 taiga over 4, as the playability of taiga is strictly for situations when you want to lure out wastelands (under maze or not), and when you desperatly need both colours/a forest/mountain to be in play.  Fireblast loves to eat taigas after casting a rancor/root maze/etc.  Getting around wastelands is key.  Rock the basics


THE IMPORTANCE IN THE INCLUSION OF ANKH OF MISHRA

Possibly Ankh of Mishra MD to offer more uncounterable damage --> this seems like one of those metagame choices that a player must think about when buiding the deck.

This is what caught my eye right away when reading this discussion.  I am still fooling around with my list, as I'm trying to get it ready for a tournament very soon (and will report back after).  I feel very strongly that ankh of mishra is a must MD as a 3-4 of.  Why, you ask?  Okay, there are many MANY reasons.  I was the first to suggest this card, and it seemed sketchy on paper, but after numerous games, I've NEVER found it to be a dead card.  I find it swings for atleast as much damage as any creature does in the deck throughout the entire game.  It also renders their fetchlands near fatal.  This in turn can be described as 'mana denial' as it negates them from wanting to drop a ton of lands.  Against many decks, you'll find that they must fetch under an ankh, and hate doing so.  When a second ankh comes down, and they're playing something with a fetch-base, it IS game over.  The synergy between ankh and maze is insane.  Ankh, as said earlier, is never a dead card, and can be cast off any mana source.  Ankh stops the crucilock, which is very present in many metagames.  Since ankh accelerates the damage, it is a must have for MD.  Nothing in your deck can inflict the pain this card does, and even late game (turn 3/4 it can be game ending; gets you out of crucilock, which is damn near impossible usually, stops the fetching, helps get the extra bit of damage in).  I'm considering shrapnel blast SB, as it inflicts tons of damage late game, and ankh is a very nice target to blast at the EoT.  This also helps the angel matchup immensely, as every other burn spell needs 2-of/mancer help to kill the damn stupid angel.  I know shrapnel blast is conditional, but with 4 MD ankh, it shouldn't be a far cry to resolve atleast one.  Currently, I'm testing fireblast over Shrap B.

COMBO ANYONE?

How many successful storm combo decks run more than 1 tendrils?

Meandeck tendrils...?  It runs 4, and cantrips into 1 or spoils into 1, then casts it, then you die

Red Elemental Blast is still worth siding because of the prevalence of broken blue spells in MTG. I use these over Pyro Pillar because they hurt Combo and Control more reliably than Pyro Pillar if my hunch on Tendrils is correct.

Red elemental blast against combo is okay, but any other blue is not.  Even against combo, their kill card isn't blue, their tutor isn't blue, so what the hell is blue?  Well, their FoW is blue, but that's only going to be used if you try to counter something they need to resolve (that likely will be black; ie. Demonic tutor, consulation, vampiric tutor, yawg will, nights whisper, spoils).  YES, it stops ancestral, but who would cast an ancestral with no backup??  Plus, if you're going to wait with a few REB/1-4 in hand, they are dead cards and are taking away from the whole intention of the deck; beatdown!

I still feel 4 maze maindeck, 4 pillar sb, and *eww* sb null rods */eww* do the job just fine.

AGGRO MATCHUPS

Is there better anti-Aggro tech than Pyrokinesis SB?

The only trouble you should have is with madness and it may stomp you.  You can't stop the flyers, theirs is much bigger than yours, and the go much faster than you can due to bazaar.  However, root maze is your best chance, as is your key removal burn cards (bolt, fireblast, magma jet/incinerate), and also your wastelands are very important here.  You basically have to lock them and beat down, or try to outrace with ankhs and shrap. blast/fireblast.  It is probably your toughest matchup.  I'd say take out shaman, ankh (if you dont run f blast or s blast), and maybe put in what I suggested.  I also wonder how pillar works against madness...not tested yet

What for? This is probably the only aggro deck that still exists. Fish is dead, madness is dead, FCG is dead. 8 burn MD helps those mathcups, so if you are worried about them, use some extra burn.

Madness is great.  Look up  I agree very much on using more burn to deal with this.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I see your point about 2 taiga vs. 4 taiga.  The only problem I have with only 2 taiga and not fetching one is the 1st turn ape issue.  But since there are way better plays than turn 1 ape, I suppose its kinda moot.  The deck can run fine on 2 lands, and its probably better to have them be 2 basics.

I had used fireblast previously, but never brought it up thinking it would get shot down way to quickly.  I'll put it in to test some more with it.

My problem with ankh is that it can't be used on creatures.  I like having 12 ways to kill welder right now, ankh doesn't help with that.  The killing of welder might be superfluous if ankh is out, however, since they are taking a lot of damage from their lands.  Maybe I'm just more of a controllish player and ankh seems too aggressive   .

About the combo, notice I said "successful storm combo."  I mean its notorious for killing ITSELF.  I'm not sure people will play it.

I always forget about bazaar madness (which is strange since its the best).  I agree that root maze and wasteland will help imensely here.  Its like stalling that 3sphere, same concept.  Not sure pillar will help because they take 2 and get a 4/4 beatstick (if it works for the madness cost).

thanks for the continued input xrobx!

[Moxlotus]

Ankh stops the crucilock, which is very present in many metagames.

I would like to falsify this claim.  Ankh does not stop the combo.  They can keep it up and they will take damage.  But to combat their wastes you have to keep playing lands also...taking damage too.  Ankh in fact combos nicely with a crucilock.

[xrobx]

I would like to falsify this claim. Ankh does not stop the combo. They can keep it up and they will take damage. But to combat their wastes you have to keep playing lands also...taking damage too. Ankh in fact combos nicely with a crucilock.

I don't know if you've played the deck, or against it, but I'd be glad to prove you wrong  If I drop an ankh, I have atleast 2 mana sources.  If my opponent starts stripping away my things, that is more than fine with me, as I can resolve any spell in my hand with 1-2 mana.  Meanwhile, I'm swinging with critters, and you're taking atleast an extra 4 damage for 2 strips.  If that gives me two turns, under normal conditions, you'll take about 3-4 a turn from my critters (6-8 total, + 4 ankh = 10-12), leaving you near death/in range for a nice fireblast/bolt/etc.  If you argue that it doesn't stop the lock, I would have to say you're wrong.  This is because likely I will draw into some kind of mana source and cast more shit.  I don't mind taking another 2 damage, but likely you will being at 8-10 life.  This is not even mentioning root maze; if maze and ankh are down, have fun strip-locking me, because it takes 2 turns to hit one land.

Also, tim, I'm not sure about F blast either.  I want to test more with shrapnel blast as well, as that could speed things up here, and allows fatty removal.  It would also allow us to use mana sources like sol ring/mana crypt (if you don't mind damage - I'd be hesitant here) for faster mana production, shaman acceleration, and easier first turn ankh/rod drops.  I know colorless isn't as good as colored, but for the purpose of 2-3 shrap blast ,ankh accel and shaman accel, it may prove useful.[/quote]

[Razor]

@ XROBX

IMO, the Ankh's plight is similar to that of Black Vise's - they're dead versus both Combo and Aggro.  Also, *if* Combo gives you time to drop Ankh how many lands do you expect them to actually drop before they win?  Almost anything else is better than Ankh or Vise, including the aforementioned: Pyro Pillar, Root Maze, Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance.

The best thing about Ankh is that it is great Shrapnel Blast food.  If you do run Ankhs Shrapnel Blasts seem like ideal Bolts # 5-8 making Sol Ring and Mana Crypt excdellent accelerators, too.  This seems worth testing.

Question: Are you folks still finding you're facing enough Oath matchups to necessitate playing maindeck Naturalize over Artifact Mutation?

[Moxlotus]

I would like to falsify this claim. Ankh does not stop the combo. They can keep it up and they will take damage. But to combat their wastes you have to keep playing lands also...taking damage too. Ankh in fact combos nicely with a crucilock.

I don't know if you've played the deck, or against it, but I'd be glad to prove you wrong  If I drop an ankh, I have atleast 2 mana sources.  If my opponent starts stripping away my things, that is more than fine with me, as I can resolve any spell in my hand with 1-2 mana.  Meanwhile, I'm swinging with critters, and you're taking atleast an extra 4 damage for 2 strips.  If that gives me two turns, under normal conditions, you'll take about 3-4 a turn from my critters (6-8 total, + 4 ankh = 10-12), leaving you near death/in range for a nice fireblast/bolt/etc.  If you argue that it doesn't stop the lock, I would have to say you're wrong.  This is because likely I will draw into some kind of mana source and cast more shit.  I don't mind taking another 2 damage, but likely you will being at 8-10 life.  This is not even mentioning root maze; if maze and ankh are down, have fun strip-locking me, because it takes 2 turns to hit one land.

Also, tim, I'm not sure about F blast either.  I want to test more with shrapnel blast as well, as that could speed things up here, and allows fatty removal.  It would also allow us to use mana sources like sol ring/mana crypt (if you don't mind damage - I'd be hesitant here) for faster mana production, shaman acceleration, and easier first turn ankh/rod drops.  I know colorless isn't as good as colored, but for the purpose of 2-3 shrap blast ,ankh accel and shaman accel, it may prove useful.

[/quote]

In your first post it just looked like you thought that Ankh automatically stopped people from using a Crucilock.  I know that isn't true because I played a deck that uses ankh with a crucilock to success.  However, your explanation on to how this deck doesn't need to play more lands and how it benefits from essentially sacrificing lands to shock opponents (if they continue to crucilock) was very nice.

[[supa_t(im)]]

IMO, the Ankh's plight is similar to that of Black Vise's - they're dead versus both Combo and Aggro.  Also, *if* Combo gives you time to drop Ankh how many lands do you expect them to actually drop before they win?  Almost anything else is better than Ankh or Vise, including the aforementioned: Pyro Pillar, Root Maze, Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance.

The best thing about Ankh is that it is great Shrapnel Blast food.  If you do run Ankhs Shrapnel Blasts seem like ideal Bolts # 5-8 making Sol Ring and Mana Crypt excdellent accelerators, too.  This seems worth testing.

Question: Are you folks still finding you're facing enough Oath matchups to necessitate playing maindeck Naturalize over Artifact Mutation?

You bring up a good point about how ankh is dead against combo and aggro.  Considering that combo is being more and more played I think this might be an issue.  However, what do we MD in that 3-4 spaces that can help us in those matchups, while retaining some usability against control?  Well, not much helps us against combo except root maze, pillar, and null rod.  We already have maze MD, and to MD pillar I think would be suicide.  Null Rod in the board possibly, but I think that MD maze is the best solution to combo as of right now.

So what about the aggro and control matchups?  Well, as stated earlier, more burn helps the aggro matchup, and is never a dead card in any game.  This deck should do well against aggro (except madness) because it does run burn and efficient beats.  So, lets consider control then. Right now we have Oath and Slaver as the top control decks.  The deck has a natural resistence to slaver with burn, maze, and not much to do on a slaver turn.  That leaves us with Oath to worry about.  Naturalize is just about the only hate that effects Oath with an added benefit of being useful against any other deck.

Also, artifact mutation isn't good against aggro or combo either, while naturalize can at least take out a bargain or what not.  I just don't see naturalize NOT helping in any matchup.  And its often the first card sided out, which makes SBing easier.

[xrobx]

@moxlotus: Thanks for reading my explanation to ankh  I find it works well under these circumstances.

Combo needs to be addressed specifically by deck...
Okay, on to combo/aggro stuff.  Against combo, yes we have MD root maze, shaman, and also wastelands.  I'm thinking these are probably the most crucial against combo, as if you mull till you hit a maze (when going first/even second, if they dont go off turn 1), you essentially have locked their combo.  This is putting a lot of reliance on maze; I'm aware of this, but under THAT condition, you should win the game (resolving turn 1/2 maze).  The idea of running pillar MD does seem like suicide to me as well, as it will kill you most of the time before you kill your opponent.  I honestly feel shrap. blast and fire blast help the combo matchup immensly, as they are your cheapest MD burn cards that deal the most damage.  Don't get me wrong, after game one they may be replaced for better hate (pillar and rod), but they are not dead cards against the combo matchup is all I'm saying.  So, against combo, maindeck, we have:

4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Root maze
3x Fireblast/Shrap blast
4x Wasteland
1x Strip

Now, there is a possibility for us to win game one, and our best chances are under a maze.  However, mulling until hitting a shaman isn't bad either, as a shaman disrupts the combo players mana sources a great deal.  Meandeck doomsday needs ATLEAST 2 mana sources to go off; be it a mox sapphire/underground, island/mox jet, etc.  It cannot go off under any other condition (less than 2 mana).  Also, doomsday tends to go off the turn AFTER it casts doomsday.  Basically, if you draw into one of the above cards you should be able to keep the combo player at bay.

The other combo we need to discuss is dragon.  Believe it or not, you have MANY solutions to dragon, but often times they can stall the game making it a draw.  No big deal; especially in game 1.  Again, you can effectively utilize all the mentioned cards above, and you can even burn the dragon to death if it's past turn 2 (not too hard, f blast and one bolt).  Wasteland combats their bazaar, maze stops them dead in their tracks, and your burn can keep the dragon at bay if need be.  Again, maybe not a favorable matchup game 1, but after sb you get naturalize which makes things a whole lot better.  Honestly, I never fear dragon as its success rate % is much lower than say doomsday, tps, or tendrils.  Let's not forget that maindeck ankh here either, as it guarentees they will not win on their turn  (Someone mentioned that it is possible for them to win on my turn, I'm not sure how yet, if someone could explain it that would help greatly! ).

The other big two combo decks are meandeck tendrils, and TPS.  Both decks handle quite similarily (if I am not mistaken; I play with tendrils, haven't tried TPS yet but I assume the idea is cantrip into tendrils by casting lots of spells, win, right??)  and I know for a fact meandeck tendrils abuses the power of chromatic sphere and darkwater egg.  The cards mentioned above will all have relevance here to beating this combo with your MD setup.  First, Shaman eats their manabase.  Simple.  Often times though, you'll find your opponent won't play their mox until they're ready to go off.  You don't care; just keep playing threats.  You have maze, which completely hoses them (artifact producers come in tapped, can no longer cantrip, no more mox mana, etc), your strip/waste effects are great if they are stupid enough to play a land and pass (usually they run 1-3 only), and your fireblast/shrap  blast can be useful if they need to spoils for a win, putting them to say 5-9, where they are vulnerable for burn damage in resp to tendrils.  I honestly say that you don't have any worse of a matchup against combo with your maindeck setup than any other deck does!  Sure, control is nice, but all the control player does is hope for FoW in the opening hand, and there are only four of those in his deck.  You have 8-12 cards that could essentially give you a good chance at winning the game if played turn 1-2.  After sideboard, you put in null rods and pillars.  Much fun.

So, that about sums up the combo as far as I can think.  The conclusion being that with your maindeck setup, if you include the cards I do, you are not coming into a combo match with necessarily bad pairings, just not your easiest.  After sideboarding, you have a much greater chance, and chances are they do not have a sideboard for AGGRO, as it should be their easiest matchup.

Also, *if* Combo gives you time to drop Ankh how many lands do you expect them to actually drop before they win?

Yes, ankh is not a good card against combo most of the time.  However, if you play against dragon you love it in your opening hand. So I actually expect them to drop about 10-20 lands playing dragon, and yes they would die.  Against other combo, it is sided out game 2.

As far as the aggro discussion is concerned, we're basically right now saying "yeah....we should win that...except madness..it owns us.."  which I somewhat agree with.  Madness is not a lost cause, you CAN win, it is definatly one of your harder matchups though.  This is a matchup where MD ankh will help you more than MD naturalize, and it is an aggro matchup.  MD ankh stays in most of the time you'll discover, as I explained its immense power before.  I currently run 4 maindeck as I rarely see it a dead card.  I do find however that naturalize is obviously weak against aggro, but that is expected.  We need to cover the aggro matchup in detail, per deck analysis like I tried to do with combo.

[nataz]

Yes, ankh is not a good card against combo most of the time. However, if you play against dragon you love it in your opening hand. So I actually expect them to drop about 10-20 lands playing dragon, and yes they would die

To be fair, a decent dragon player should be able to kill you at instant speed with ank dmg on the stack.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Yes, ankh is not a good card against combo most of the time. However, if you play against dragon you love it in your opening hand. So I actually expect them to drop about 10-20 lands playing dragon, and yes they would die

To be fair, a decent dragon player should be able to kill you at instant speed with ank dmg on the stack.

Yeah they can kill you with necromancy on your turn.  But root maze still stops that, and doesn't dragon only run 2 necromancy usually?

As for the aggro matchup, madness in particular, wastelands help with the bazaars, burn can get rid of unprotected mongrels, or at least make them discard stuff before they are ready.  I think fireblast could be really good in this matchup because of the ability to take down arrogant wurms.

For other aggro matchups, what do we have to deal with?  Fish?  Burn; lavamancers; naturalize for vials, curiosity, and CoWs.  WW?  Burn; Lavamancers; naturalize for vials, and other pesky enchantments.  Mirror?  I think whoever gets the active lavamancer first wins.  Workshop aggro?  Well, if they get trinisphere before we play, lets hope for lots of ESG, otherwise we have burn, rancor, wastelands, rootmaze, naturalize.  FCG? this I think can also be tough, we have burn, and root maze actually helps to stop them going explosive really early, naturalize kills food chain, and lavamancers can even take out piledrivers.  What else is there?

[Freelancer]

Well TPS usually relies on a single bomb fueled by a dark ritual (necro, bargain, will, tutors etc.) to win...TPS is actually quite a bad matchup because they can go off without needing artifacts (besides upping the storm a bit) quite often by casting several rituals followed by will--->tendrills--->win...Also they have duress/force of will (total 8 cards) to stop our mazes, trust me one this one unless you maindeck several hate cards main (root maze, rod, pillar) this will NOT be a winnable matchup game 1...(10 hate cards between main/side should be enough to stand a decent shot)

I have also tested out fireblast and I didn't really like it, yes sometimes it just wins but more often than not it's dead in your hand because you can't find the needed mountains...

Did anyone test out mask of memory? I tested it out some time ago in WW and absolutely loved it, since we already scrapped null rod from the maindeck we can run this to keep steam up in the late game...Besides we have plenty off hate cards that are 'suboptimal' in the mid/late game (multiple mazes, naturalizes against storm, lands etc.) we can pitch...
I've experienced plenty off games where I had like a couple off hate cards on the board with a small critter and a burn card in hand but no real pressure, in this case a top decked mask would be SO good...What is your opinion on this?

[xrobx]

I haven't tried it yet but will test with it (mask of memory).  It also allows us to run sol ring, mana crypt, and that opens up the playability of shrapnel blast and gorilla shaman.  It also allows turn 1 2cc drops.  Could be useful...not to mention, the colorless mana can cast a turn one mask of memory...I'll test it out and see.  Good idea

[Freelancer]

It didn't even cross my mind to add more collorless artifact acc...nice idea... It will also increase the chance off a turn 1 2cc hate card (pillar, ank, rod) wich is real good...

Do you take out lands or business cards for the extra mana producers? Also with more maindeck artifacts is null rod in the sideboard still a solid inclusion? (although it should hurt them more than you)

[xrobx]

Yea, the null rod doesn't really hurt you.  It's sided for a reason; if they play meandeck tendrils, ravager, slaver, etc., the rod simply shuts them down.  If you can power it out first turn with a mana crypt or sol ring, who cares if you can't use the sol ring again? The only question here is if mana crypt is still viable as it can kill you a lot more frequently in this deck.  I haven't got enough testing with shrap blast yet, or mask of memory to conclude about either.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Game one will be hard against TPS.  Likely they will go off even with a root maze (if it hits).  They have duress, force, and bounce to get rid of it if necessary.  However, they only have 2 tendrils and usually need that artifact mana.  If we shut if off for at least a turn it can improve the matchup.  Also with MD naturalize if they tinker for jar game 1 it gives us a chance to stop it from activating.  After SBing pillar and rod come in.  This means likely 11 hate cards against them.  Also with 30+ cards costing 3 mana or less pillar will hurt them quite a bit.  I assume REB will actually help this matchup as well.

IMO the TPS matchup is where we need to focus the SB.  I think we need to keep the options broad, but still have them affect TPS.  REB, Pillar, and Rod are all cards in my SB that can go against TPS, and I think this will at least give them more of a headache playing me.

Shrapnel blast doesn't seem good to me.  You have to run ankh, sol ring, and mane crypt to play it, and that just seems too colorless intensive.  I'm also worried about mask because of the discard part.  Usually I find myself wanting to play just about every card I draw, I don't know if I like discarding some of them.  This is all speculation though, I haven't had an opportunity to test with legitimate players recently.

BTW, if we run crypt I wouldn't worry about it killing us because of gorilla shaman.

[Razor]

My hunch is that Mask of Memory is extraneous to RG Beatz.  It is slow, conditional card-draw.  If you want card-draw, either play Oshawa Stompy, Enchantress or run Hystrodon - un-drainable, trampling card-draw on legs is some good, I hear.

We need more guys to stick Rancor on, not more cards (ie.Mask of Memory) to stick on guys.

Aside, have any of you Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elite players tried playing Immolation to use as either cheap pump or for board control?  In addition to kiling Goblin Welders I bet it'll even kill random, stray Psychatogs.

Immolation

Color= Red  Type= Enchant Creature  Cost= R LG(C1)/4(C)  
Text (4th+errata): Enchanted creature gets +2/-2. [Oracle 1999/09/03]

[Revvik]

soooooo...

Immolation can be played on Kird Ape, and Skyshroud Elite?  That seems too conditional.  Not many creatures in this deck have 3-toughness.

However, this does take on the role of "additional burn" with a bonus in Welder-heavy environments, and can substitute in the Fire/Ice or Incinerate slot, if the utility outweighs the sorcery-speed / conditional secondary ability.

[MCS]

Immolation is a realy bad idea. You have only 8 creatues that immolation can target and, besides goblin welder (and perhaps a random nantuko shade), it's a dead card. I would swamp it with a burn/creature/whatever any time.

I've swithced to dwarven blastminers MD, since they do a great job against most of the decks and they realy work great under root maze.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Immolation is a realy bad idea. You have only 8 creatues that immolation can target and, besides goblin welder (and perhaps a random nantuko shade), it's a dead card. I would swamp it with a burn/creature/whatever any time.

I've swithced to dwarven blastminers MD, since they do a great job against most of the decks and they realy work great under root maze.

Immolation would be great in the mirror, but we really don't have to worry about that now anyway.  Its also a dead card against TPS, which is our worst matchup, I think even worse than Oath.  We want every card to count against TPS, and immolation just doesn't make the cut.  I will say that it may be a metagame card for welder infested metas (coughNewEnglandcough).

What did you take out for blastminers, and have they really been efective?  Nonbasics are still popular, but with wasteland, I'm not sure blastminer is needed.  He also seems expensive to use.

[xrobx]

Hey guys...
Did using any other power in this deck ever cross your mind at all?  Specifically, time walk and ancestral?

I'm currently testing with them, running the on color moxen (UGR), a crypt, and 1 volcanic, 1 tropical maindeck.  You can fool around with your land base a bit if you like to fit it however you need, but I'm finding that the inclusion of these 2 cards is far greater than the two cards you'd be missing.  For me, I've been going back and forth between my free 2-3 open slot for the last 3 months, and I'm finding that this fill works quite nicely.

Simply put, ancestral is the best card in the game.  It NEVER hurts you to have it.  Time walk is a close second IN THIS DECK, as it grants the additional turn to go 'boom...you die'.  The offset of the manabase is barely noticeable in my setup, and I can fetch accurately and pull the land when I need it with the fetch.  If I draw the land, its still just as good as a mountain or forest, so its decent.

Tell me your thoughts on this guys.  Obviously I know it is NOT a budjet option, so I'm assuming everyone has access to cards.

[Revvik]

According to this deck, Time Walk is the best card in the game.  And as another bonus, if your burn cards 5-8 are Fire/Ice, you can do other stuff like tap Trinispheres, etc.

Maybe you'll have better luck than us, but we kept getting the Trop waaaay too early, almost as if the deck kept spitting it out at us for causing impurity (although we did it strictly for Fire/Ice, and not including the blue Power).

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Hello,
i've been following this and the old topic for a while and here some of my ideas.

Don't you think that 4 grim lavamancers are too much ? I try 2-3 because in my eyes 4 are too much without any carddraw or other effects that put some more cards in our graveyard.
I also use only 3 Gorillas because i feel 4 are too much (with 4 Naturalize maindeck).

4 or 3 Rootmazes ? I have a problem there. I want them if possible on the opening hand but if multiple are drawn later this is not so good again. How many have you in your deck ?

Troll Ascetic, how do you think about him ? I think he is very strong because many decks are just not able to handle him but i have some problems with the mana he needs to be played and regenerated.

[MCS]

I think I'll answer for most of the guys that are discussing around this topic:

Hello,
Don't you think that 4 grim lavamancers are too much ? I try 2-3 because in my eyes 4 are too much without any carddraw or other effects that put some more cards in our graveyard.

Fetchlands puts cards in your graveyard. Dead creatures and burn also. Wasteland and strip mine also. You want a creature that says "kill a welder any time that you need to kill it", or "give me the extra punch I need to kill my opponent trough akroma", and this is what grim is for. Sometimes, it is a good card to slip past an opponents hard defense, but his main purpose is to mutilate welder and creature based decks (he is also great against madness, and madness is a nightmare matchup for rg decks)..

I also use only 3 Gorillas because i feel 4 are too much (with 4 Naturalize maindeck).

Gorila has a diferent purpose in this deck. Naturalize is ment to fight fat artifacts such as trinisphere and oath. Gorila is here to fight moxes and low cc artifacts. He trully shines under root maze since your opponent doesn't get the chance to use his 0 mana artifact's before they get blown away. You almost always want to draw a gorila round 1.

4 or 3 Rootmazes ? I have a problem there. I want them if possible on the opening hand but if multiple are drawn later this is not so good again. How many have you in your deck ?

You don't want to draw multiple root maze, but drawing one in your oppening hand will increase your chance to win, especialy against workshops or combo decks. I would never play less than 4 of them, altought drawing 2 of them isn't good.

Troll Ascetic, how do you think about him ? I think he is very strong because many decks are just not able to handle him but i have some problems with the mana he needs to be played and regenerated.

He would be realy good if keeper emerges again as a tier 1 deck. At the moment, he is slow and his non-targetable efect doesn't helps against anything since oath will outrace you, workshop will trample over you with colossus and combo will combo out before you get the chance to play it. He is only good if you have an enviorment with many deck packing targetaple removal spells (especialy stp's) maindeck, since troll truly shines against those deck. He would be also great a year ago when abyss was used as a creature removal, but this days he is just too slow.

[MCS]

Hey guys...
Did using any other power in this deck ever cross your mind at all?  Specifically, time walk and ancestral?

I tried, even tried using black for demonic tutor. It slows you down since you don't cast nothing for the turn, altought time walk sometimes can be great. I disliked it since drawing a tropical (I used tropical as my dual lands) in my opening hand was realy bad most of the times.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Running the big blue is an interesting idea.  It could be plausible for budget players in 5 proxy metagames.  Although I think the 5th proxy should be lotus, not sapphire.

I'm gonna go test with the power.  Seems promising, although the only thing I'm worried about is never drawing them.  I don't know why drawing a tropical would be bad, its just like drawing a forest.