[Unfinished Article] Comprehensive Analysis of the B&R L

[Smmenen]

I started this article last summer but never finished it.  Here is the unfinished work:


54 Age Lines Seek Face Lift
Analysis of the Type One Restricted List
A List in Search of a Policy

INtroduction

There is one thing apart from all else that sets Type One apart from other formats of magic.  It isn’t because Type One has twice the card pool of Extended, a number of hundred dollar singles, or even that there are a number of accidents – highly abusible undercosted spells such as Ancestral Recall or Yawgmoth’s Will.  The single most prominent feature of Type One is the mana acceleration.  People who watch some of the more ridiculous Type One matches are struck by how fast the games may seem.  A complaint about Extended last season was in a similar vein.  Kai Budde was heard complaining that the format was too fast, a fact which he claimed had a number of undesirable consequences, one of which, was that a player had to rely heavily on the luck of the opening hand and the consistency of the deck they chose.  

Accelleration in Type One isn’t so much a feature of the format as a rule of the format.  It tends to raise viability bar for some strategies (beatdown) and make other strategies easier (combo).  The reason it’s a rule of the format instead of a feature is because Type One is defined by it.  Black Lotus isn’t a card that one generally puts into a deck because of design synergies or metagame benefits, it is included because of the mere fact that it is legal to play with.   DCI policy makers don’t look at Black Lotus and ask: Is Black Lotus distorting the format?  Should it be unrestricted?  Metagame considerations of this sort aren’t even brought to bear.  It would be like considering the addition another Draw Step or a change in the starting life total – it would be a change in the rules of the format, not a decision based upon competitive balance.  For this reason asking if a Mox or Black Lotus should be restricted or unrestricted is an absurdity from a metagame viewpoint – it’s like asking whether there should be four Queens in Chess or one.  

This is why Null Rod is so good.  It essentially breaks a fundamental rule of the format – a feature of the format that many decks rely on.  The five original moxen of the format are essentially in the same category.  They don’t automatically belong in every deck, but they are not by any means restricted for metagame considerations.  Running them or not is not too different from the question of whether to run a 60 card deck or not.  Having more than 60 cards in your deck better have a darned compelling rationale.  Of the remaining cards on the Restricted list, Mana Crypt comes closest to joining this small cadre of cards which form not just good non-unrestrictables, but are a part of the foundation of the format.  The only reason Mana Crypt isn’t included is because slow decks generally can’t handle the drawback.  Although, in sofar as the current metagame is concerned, Mana Crypt is widely considered a superior card to Mox Pearl.  And for practical purposes, Sol Ring should be included on this list as well.  These 8 cards are the heart of Type One along with two unrestricted cards: Force of Will and to a lesser extent Polluted Delta.  


What Would Happen If?

In this part of the article, I was going to actually speculate what might happen if any given card was unrestricted.  I didn't get too far, as you can see.

Ancestral Recall
This card’s importance to the format has dropped dramatically in the last two years.  At one point this was the most important card in the most important deck in the middle ages of type one from 1997-2000.  

Jan 1st, 2002:
NAME: Keeper
// Mana
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

// Drawing
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dismantling Blow

// Recursion
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Search
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

// Creature Control
2 Morphling
1 Balance
1 Diabolic Edict
1 The Abyss

// Countermagic
1 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

// Other
1 Zuran Orb
1 Timetwister
1 Fire/Ice
1 Mind Twist
1 Gorilla Shaman

This deck would attempt to tutor up Ancestral, and then find Regrowth to play it again, and then some versions used Gaea’s Blessing to shuffle back Ancestral and Regrowth to replay both again.   Eventually the deck used Yawgmoth’s Will and rather than losing importance, it became more important to find Ancestral quickly.  Keeper would then build up its entire graveyard for a game winning Yawgmoth’s Will.  Of course, this Yawgmoth’s Will was dwarfed by what GroAtog would soon do, and Long.dec afterward.  

This card is now just a random power boost to most decks – nothing central, but randomly good.  Long would play Ancestral as bait to expend an opponent’s resources so that it might play its real bomb.  Draw7 does this quite a bit as well.  

Objective Power Level: This is one of the best cards ever printed – easily in the top 5 objectively best cards.

Practical power Level: One test of this is to what degree resolving the spell in question leads to a win.  

What would happen if this card were to be unrestricted?  I realize the question seems absurd to even ask, but it’s worth speculating if only to get further insight into the cards power level and reinforce our understanding of the format.  

It seems to me that the most probable effect of unleashing four Ancestral Recalls would be this outcome: A vastly dominant MiracleGro deck with only weak counter strategies.
Let me walk you through it.  If Ancestral was unrestricted almost every deck in Type One would run 4.  Keeper, Dragon, each Combo deck, and every aggro-control deck would run 4.  The fear of 4 Ancestral Recall immediately suggests that Combo could really break it.  The problem with that is that 4 Ancestral Recall in Aggro-Control like MiracleGro would be very very likely to have turn 1 Force of Will and find more Force of Wills more quickly.  So each Combo deck would have to contend with what would not doubt be a sea of decks that can find Force of Will almost immediately.  Second, the proliferation of Ancestrals would make 4 Misdirections a staple of the format again.  Once again, Gro best is able to abuse 4 Misdirections.  The free spell grows the Dryad and Gro could probably even run a couple of Foils because of the gross card advantage gained from Ancestrals.  Combo would not be able to deal with so much pitch countermagic at every turn in a deck that is so quick.  Gro would then basically have a third or fourth turn Yawgmoth’s Will that is beyond broken after having cast multiple Ancestrals before the combo decks can recoup.  TPS is already a turn three storm deck.  Draw7 tries to win on turn 1 or 2 and Dragon is turn 2-3.  Belcher is the fastest combo deck at a turn 1.  The dileimma that will happen is whether they can abuse the Ancestrals.  These decks can’t not run Ancestral, but they will have to contend with Gro’s superior numbers of pitchmagic and 4 Misdirections.  Combo itself will then be forced to use Misdirections and the format would become extremely distorted.  Control decks like Keeper would want 4 Ancestrals but would have to contend, once again, with 4 Misdirections in every deck.  

The best anti-Gro strategy might be Workshop Trinisphere – but that, once again, is a risky strategy in that Gro will nearly always have Force of Will or a pitch counterspell.  It would be even worse than last June where GroAtog was pretty pervasive.  And this isn’t even taking into account the limited number of Ancestrals to go around.  

Balance
To be honest, I’ve always been a bit mystified by assertions of Balance being the, or among the most broken spells in Type One.  I would be hard pressed to rank it in the top 5.  

Balance is a ridiculously powerful effect, but primary because it is so undercosted.  At 1W you have a veritable buffet of spells like Armeggedon, Mind Twist, and Wrath of God.  The problem with Balance is not its power level, it’s the inability to build a strong strategy around it.  In Columbus, we have run a fun little tournament called the Battle of the Banned decks which included (insert link) full broken Academy, 4 Necro Trix, and the Maysonet Balance Rack deck.  The sucktitude of the Balance deck reflects the fact that discarding your hand to make Balance hurt the opponent is a bad strategy.  Almost every deck in the format runs 4 Force of Wills and such a plan just dies to that.  In other words, building a deck around Balance is not easy to do – at least not a combo deck.  You could certainly take a control deck and add multiple Balances as solid utility cards.  But even then, they would be conditional and possibly unwieldy.  

The real problem with Balance is that it terribly limits aggro strategies and even aggro-control strategies.  The flaw in the argument that Balance should be restricted because of that is that “answering” aggro strategies has proven an inferior strategic choice for Type One.  The best way to beat aggro is not to ‘answer’ it, its by winning before aggro does.  Psychatog decks are a great example of this.  They try to Berserk combo over the aggro player before they reach 0 life.  

Black Lotus
See Introduction for a discussion of this card.

Black Vise

Braingeyser
This card is an dud.  


Burning Wish
This card was restricted because it finds Yawgmoth’s Will – perhaps the most powerful effect in the format, and the most broken card in the format as well because it is played in so many decks and because it tends to simply win games.  We need not dwell on Burning Wish’s restriction except to note what Randy said:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102

Channel
People have talked about unrestricted this card, but in my opinion, that is a terrible idea.  Channel taps directly into one of the most abundant resources the game has to offer: life.  Let’s not fool ourselves – 20 life is a lot.  It’s often far more than  one needs – which is why cards like Necropotence and Yawgmoth’s Bargain are so powerful.  For a mere GG, you can stick a needle directly into the life vien and suck out 19 mana on turn one.  

Add to that the fact that Green is actually a good color now and Elvish Spirit Guide being a very good accelerant and Channel is not difficult to cast.   Perhaps the best use of Channel at the moment is to power out Goblin Charbelcher and use it on turn one (insert link).  
 

Chrome Mox
Keep restricted
Crop Rotation
Keep restricted

Demonic Consultation
Keep restricted

Demonic Tutor
Dur dur

Doomsday
??

Dream Halls
??

Earthcraft
Unrestrict

Enlightened Tutor
Keep as is.

Entomb
??

Fact or Fiction
Keep restricted

Fastbond
Dur dur

Fork
Unrestrict

Frantic Search
??

Grim Monolith
Keep restricted

Gush
Dur dur

Library of Alexandria
Keep restricted

Lion’s Eye Diamond
Dur

Lotus Petal

Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Memory Jar

Mind Over Matter
unrestrict

Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
 
Regrowth
The problem with this card is something like this.  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral.  Ancestral.  Regrowth Ancestral.  Gush.  Regrowth Ancestral.  Regrowth Ancestral.  This gets out of hand quickly.

Sol Ring
Strip Mine

Stroke of Genius
Unrestrict.  

Time Spiral
Unrestrict
 
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor

Voltaic Key
??

Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Ban


This is the first time I have done a systematic analysis of the Restricted list, so this will be interesting.

I beleive the best way to organize the Restricted List is to see it in groups

GROUP A: The Most Broken, and I mean BA-ROKEN, Cards in Type One that will never be unresricted

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Lion?s Eye Diamond
Mind's Desire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Memory Jar
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Those 23 cards - with the exception maybe of Time Walk, are all problem cards. They are cards which are at the core of Vintage and what make it so unbalancing. If you banned those cards, this game would be RADICALLY different and almost impossible to truly "break." A substantial
portion of the cards in Group A are the cause of the necessity of restriction the cards in Group B:

(Btw, I would ironically add Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop to Group A - if that says anything about the power level of Group A - although I don't want either card restricted).

Group B, cards that have to be restricted becuase of Group A

subgroup 1: The Tutors

Burning Wish
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Doomsday
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor

Spoils may soon join this rank.

Subgroup 2: The borderline Mana Accellerants

Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Channel
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal
Fastbond
Frantic Search (??)
Voltaic Key (??) - if some of hte cards in Group A were unrestricted this card would be much more broken.

Some cards in this subgroup are better than others. If not for the draw 7s and other cards on the restricted list, Fastbond would be less broken, although it arguably belongs in group A - and I would agree with that to a great degree. Of the rest of the group, I think Lotus Petal is probalby the strongest - which is highly ironic. Channel has great potential in a deck like Belcher and with Elvish Spirit Guides around. I think Elvish Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual are probably both stronger than Mox Diamond an Grim Monolith - and ironically, Dark Ritual is much stronger than any of the cards in this subgroup with perhaps the exception of Fastbond.

Group C: Cards which are Format Warping or Clearly Strong, but not as Broken as the cards in Group A - but becuase of how they function, they are unrestrictable - simply becuase they are too sick in multiples

Black Vise
Strip Mine
Library of Alexandria (??)

Group D: Engines - Cards which Fuel Dominant Decks
Dream Halls
Gush
PERHAPS Fact or Fiction, but I find that HIGHLY spurrious
Mind Over Matter (I find this one doubtful too).


The cards that remain I'd like to discuss individually.

Group E - The Unrestrictables

Braingeyser - Slow and Unweildy. Clearly a good candidate for unrestriction

Earthcraft
Restricted for 1.5

Entomb
I'm not entirely sure about this one. I'm on the side of unrestriction though.

Fact or Fiction
I have spoken at length about this card elsewhere.

Fork
OMG I have written SO Much about why this should be unrestricted beginning with posts on BDOMINIA years ago along with Berserk and Hurkyl's Recall.

Mind Twist
Now here is a REALLY good card to debate the merits of. I'd like to see this unrestricted. I think it COULD be a problem. But it would only be becuase people are playing with lots of accelleration in what is basically a Mind twist deck. I don't think such a deck concept would be viable. Duress is, on the whole, a functionally superior card. What do you think of that, eh?

Regrowth
I think this has to stay simply becuase the potential for abuse is too strong. With green getting stronger by the moment, this card is too undercosted to allow unrestriction.

Stroke of Genius
This card is awful. I laught that it is restricted.

Time Spiral
This card is SOOO Much worse than Diminishing Returns there are not words to describe it.

To be honest, until I did this review, I didn't realize how incongruous the restricted list is with reality. The list has so many cards on it that don't even approach the power level of other unrestricted cards. I honestly would put Diminishing Returns and Dark Ritual in category A - although a restricted Dark Ritual loses much of its potency.


BANNINGS
Bannings aren’t really debated in the Type One community because the potential for restriction tends to solve any sort of metagame problem from a dominant or distorting deck.  

The most frequent subject of this discussion historically has been Tolarian Academy.  The common argument runs that Banning Academy would enable several other cards to be unrestricted – cards that lose their power without Academy in the format.  For the most part, I think these arguments are wanting.  Banning Academy would not really enable anything to be unrestricted of value.  Perhaps Crop Rotation – although that sees equal amount of play as a tutor for Bazaar of Baghdad.  Frantic Search and Mind Over Matter are other examples, but my discussion of their importance highlights the fact that Academy really isn’t critical to their analysis.  

Recently, Yawgmoth’s Will has become the most frequent card brought up for banning.  I think a very strong case could be made for this.  

The principle of restriction is that by limiting a card from four to a single copy in deck construction, the DCI can destroy overly dominant or distorting decks that rely on multiple copies.  The majority of the restricted list exemplifies this policy.  In recent terms, think of GroAtog with four Gush or Long.dec with four Lion’s Eye Diamond.  The reason Restriction is effective is because with only a single copy, it won’t come up with enough frequency to really build a deck around it or abuse it to the full extent.

Yawgmoth’s Will is the one card where that logic breaks down.  In the first place, Yawgmoth’s Will is not a card that you need multiple copies of, or need immediately.  The strength of a Will is conditioned on the strength of the cards already in the graveyard and the strength of other cards in the deck.  Therefore, a strong Will is preceded by other spells that increase the chances that Will will be found.  In other words, unlike most restricted cards, Will is not a card that you can heavily diminish the influence of by restricting because decks aren’t trying to get Wills in their opening hand so that it can be the first spell they cast.  Going Swamp, Dark Ritual, Yawgmoth’s Will are your first play is as funny as it is useless.  However, going Swamp, Dark Ritual, Necorpotence is nothing to laugh about.  

That isn’t to say that people wouldn’t play with four Wills if it was unrestricted – I have no doubt that they would, but the assumption underlying the principle of restriction that you want to diminish the number of multiples in a deck in order to stop a certain engine is less applicable to Will.  

This force of this point is brought home with the realization that each powerful preceding spell increases the likelihood that Will will show up – and when it does, it will grow more broken with each spell cast.  It is for this reason that decks with robust drawing engines often don’t even need to Tutor for Will – if you simply draw enough cards you will find it.  Yet tutors are cast often for Ancestral Recall.  

I think the case for banning Yawgmoth’s Will is very strong once the realization is made that future restrictions will have to be made entirely or partly because of Yawgmoth’s Will.  

The first deck to abuse Yawgmoth’s Will that I witnessed in Type One was Keeper and Trix.  Both decks fueled large game winning Yawgmoth’s Wills.  Advancements in Type One made Yawgmoth’s Will more central.

Taking a look back for the moment, the Gush engine was very broken in GroAtog because the deck was naturally very powerful (the Gro base), and because of the interaction with Fastbond.  But what made the deck ungodly was the combo that occurred when Yawgmoth’s Will was cast.  In the turns preceding Yawgmoth’s Will, one Gush may have been cast from hand, and a Merchant Scroll might have found another, and a cantrip or two might have found the third.  This was enough to maintain a solid advantage on the board and make Dryads and Togs quite formidable.  

When Yawgmoth’s Will was cast, things quickly spiraled out of control.  In that turn – often turn three – in the general game and in the usual case at least four Gushes were cast (generating mana with fastbond) along with Ancestral Recall and Time Walk, and Dryads and Togs grew to enormous proportions – often well about 20 power.  The Gushes helped find Yawgmoth’s Will and Yawgmoth’s Will made the Gush engine more than just a draw engine that fueled Togs and Dryads, it turned it into a combo deck that didn’t even need Berserk.  

The restriction of Gush helped the format slow down a bit.  But the next deck to really abuse Yawgmoth’s Will went beyond GroAtog and was really a Yawgmoth’s Will deck: Long.dec.  Using Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamonds it found that 4 Burning Wishes and Lion’s Eye Diamond synergy effectively enabled turn one or two, game winning Yawgmoth’s Wills with great consistency.  Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamond were restricted to stop that nonsense.  This deck moved the Yawgmoth’s Will turn from turn three or four, to turn one or two – and made it possible by putting Will in the SB and finding it with Burning Wish.  

Restricting those cards slowed down the format again.  But now I am beginning to see Yawgmoth’s Will speed up otherwise moderately fast control decks into a control deck with a combo Yawg Win finish.  The fetchlands have made it far more likely that Yawgmoth’s Will will rear its head because of the sheer quantity of cards seen through Brainstorm and other card draw.  

Yawgmoth’s Will is called “Yawg Win” because that is generally what happens when it resolves.  The effect is to speed up the format by permitting decks to “combo” out far earlier than they would normally win.  It seems obvious to me that decks will become more and more efficient at abusing this card, until, once again, something else needs to be restricted.  JP Meyer has compared Yawgmoth’s Will in Type One Tog to Upheaval in Tog decks of other formats.  The idea that the game ends there is right on – but what the analogy misses is that the spells that led up to the casting of Yawgmoth’s Will have 1) made it more likely to resolve (because you have more countermagic to protect it from having drawn so many cards) and 2) made it more broken (by filling up your graveyard with juicy spells).  Upheaval is more analogous to Berserk.  

Good Type One players will often Duress a Yawgmoth’s Will far in advance of a likely resolution simply because it is so threatening.  It ends the game more quickly than the game would naturally have ended and helps reinforce the perceptions about Type One being less “interactive” than other formats.  When Tog plays its second Intuition for Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Time Walk simply because it has Yawgmoth’s Will in hand, you know that Yawgmoth’s Will is a focal point of the deck.

It’s not only a safe move to Ban Yawgmoth’s Will, it would be a wise move.  I have no doubt that Yawgmoth’s Will constraints deck design unnecessarily, and possibly even limits card design.  Yawgmoth’s Will forces the opponent to watch in resignation as all the spells that led up to Yawgmoth’s Will over the course of the entire game are replayed in one turn because of one card.  In other words, one player gets to replay the entire game from start to finish.  If the cards in Type One are considered “accidents” or even overpowered, then all those broken cards that preceded the Will and made it more likely to show up imbalance the game all over again.  

One final factor to emphasize is the universiality of the card.  Few decks can’t use Yawgmoth’s Will and the splash for black that occurs just for Will and possibly Demonic Tutor has so little drawback because of Fetchlands that the burden of proof is on the person who failed to include Will to explain why.  It is useful in combo decks, control decks, aggro-control decks, prison decks, and aggro decks alike.  Most restricted cards can’t boast such unversiality.  Necropotence is something control decks generally don’t play.  

Steve

[Chamelet]

Well, I agree with everything you said about the restricted list. It could be REALLY cleaned up if wizards wants to do so. And I guess they want. But slowly.
AS for Yawg Will: I understand what you're trying to point out, but banning a card isn't good. Since Vintage is the format you can play with all cards, you must assume Will is a part of that, and that Vintage is a Will format.
It's broken, it wins lost games, but there are lots of card which do that. In fact, Yawgmoth's Will is just a card that wins games. And Vintage is full of that. (not that efficient though).
Yeah...it increases the lucky factor a lot, but this is also fun. I mean, even when your opponent just beat you with a lucky Will, it's fun to see 175 spells played in a turn.
It's an honorable way to die. And flavorfull also, since Yawgmoth is the most powerfull character in Magic EVER.

[Smmenen]

I don't think that Yawg Will is either honorable or flavorful.  

It is a lucky topdeck.  Yawgmoth's Will results in a prematurely ended game.

I think the best argument against Yawg Will is seen by the absence of it.  Without Yawg Will, Control mirrors would be far more skill based as the control player has to jockey to resolve a less powerful spell, that may be no less game breaking.  The games would be shorter and more skill intensive.

[Chamelet]

It is a lucky topdeck.  Yawgmoth's Will results in a prematurely ended game.

Tinker is also a lucky topdeck that can win games. Not to mention other broken cards that are totally topdeckable to win games at once. Banning will would just make vintage not that fun.

And killing Will would kill almost all combo decks...

[Smmenen]

Tinker is also a topdeck that wins games - but Tinker doesn't end control mirrors the vast majority of the time.  Yawg Will is something that control mirrors boil down to and it prematurely ends them.  Instead of jockeying to do what your deck is designed to do, everything else becomes bait until the player forces through Yawg Will.

Control mirrors without Yawg Will, and indeed most matches, would become far more skill intensive.

And banning Yawg Will would not kill combo.  The only combo deck it would kill would be long, and that is it.  It wouldn't touch dragon, draw7, meandeck tendrils, kobolds or indeed any of those decks.

[Eastman]

I don't think that Yawg Will is either honorable or flavorful.  

It is a lucky topdeck.  Yawgmoth's Will results in a prematurely ended game.

I think the best argument against Yawg Will is seen by the absence of it.  Without Yawg Will, Control mirrors would be far more skill based as the control player has to jockey to resolve a less powerful spell, that may be no less game breaking.  The games would be shorter and more skill intensive.

If the control players are still jockeying to resolve a game breaking spell,  wouldn't the match be played the same way? In the example you give it seems that a 'less powerful.. ... but no less game breaking' spell would merely supplant the Yawgmoth's Will. How would that make the match more or less skill intensive?

[Zherbus]

I think what Eastman is saying is that if Yawgmoth's Will were gone and, for arguements sake, a draw spell was put in it's place, then the control mirror  stalemate would be broken by that. I think that's an excellent point, but I think it might oversimplify the arguement a little.

Let's assume a Control Slaver mirror is happening. Both players have been fighting over control of the game for many turns. Finally, both players are exhausted in their hand-resources with nothing but mana on the board. Player A top decks a land, while Player B topdecks Ancestral (for arguements sake I am using the strongest draw spell to illustrate my point) Recall. Player B goes for it and draw land, Mana Drain, and Welder. While this completely lopsided the game, it did not seal it like Will->Lotus-Recall->Walk->Welder->Thirst, take Walk turn, Weld in Pentavus, make a bunch of babies...

Player B can then draw a dart and get back into the game. Player B could draw a Deep Anal and get a Drain and Welder himself. There are a number of scenarios where player B has some hope of pulling out of a bad position that Will completely would never allow.

[Whatever Works]

Have you considered Channel for your section of untouchables. It would seem to fit there better then in the group of rather tame "borderline" accelerants. I see nothing borderline about channel at all. Channel is incredibly broken and it should never be unrestricted, ever. Or did you fit it in that section based on the double green casting cost, or perhaps principle??? Maybe its just me, but i would list it in the other category. You also argue that it would be a terrible card to ever restrict especially with Belcher, and ESG availible to power its odd casting cost turn 1.

[Smmenen]

I don't think that Yawg Will is either honorable or flavorful.  

It is a lucky topdeck.  Yawgmoth's Will results in a prematurely ended game.

I think the best argument against Yawg Will is seen by the absence of it.  Without Yawg Will, Control mirrors would be far more skill based as the control player has to jockey to resolve a less powerful spell, that may be no less game breaking.  The games would be shorter and more skill intensive.

If the control players are still jockeying to resolve a game breaking spell,  wouldn't the match be played the same way? In the example you give it seems that a 'less powerful.. ... but no less game breaking' spell would merely supplant the Yawgmoth's Will. How would that make the match more or less skill intensive?

It's a good question that I left open in my reply.   The answer is two fold:

First, there is a class of spells that tend to win control mirrors historically in the late game.  A few cards win control mirrors early - such as LOA.  Most of the control cards that win the late game tend to be: Yawg Will or Mind Twist.  Another card may be cranial extraction.  Extraction and Mind Twist are much more difficult to weild.  You can't just cast Mind Twist as it eats up so much mana.  It has to be planned for and timed even more carefully than Yaw Will.  

The second and more important answer is that while another play or series of plays would win the game in the absence of Yawg Will - it would actually be a result of the strategy of the deck at issue instead of a result of the inclusion and lucky topdeck of a restricted bomb.  I.e. instead of playing Yawg Will, Tog would have to play a tog and swing for lethal.  Such a play provides no protection and makes the game more interesting.  

You can play a Tog and hope it resolves and if it does still not win the game.  You can play a Yawg will and hope it resolves and if it does almost never lose the game.  The alternative plays to Yawg Will give the opponent a chance to actually try to find answers or play them.  The only answer to yawg will is a counterspell or a narrow hoser like Tormod's Crypt.  Answers to powerful swingy spells like Yawg Will are always going to be more narrow than answers to most control decks threats.  Edict can kill a morphling but is worse than horrible at trying to stop a yawg will from resolving.  Removing Yawg WIll from the environment would make other answers more viable for inclusion in control mirror matches.  

Parfait can stop WElder, Slaver, Pentavus, Plat Angel, Psychatog, and even overwhelm countermagic.  It can't stop the brokeness from a control mirror becuase it lacks the only effective solution: countermagic.

Pursuing this line of questioning also evades other important considerations that I brought up in the final segment of the article: a) restricting Yawg will saves other future restrictions becuase there is a progression in the development of t1 to break Yawg will that has been repeatedly seen.  b) that restriction is an ineffective policy where the optimal number of a card may in fact be closer to one than to four.   c) that simply playing spells that lead up to the playing of Yawg Will have made it more likely to resolve.  The better the spells have been up to that point, the more likely it is that you will resolve yawg will.  

I would like to see Yawg Will removed from the format becuase it would actually force decks to pursue their own strategies to completion rather than by proxy via a large Will.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

I honestly don't see Yawgmoth's Will influencing much in terms of cardpool. The cards that benefit most from it's use are either nowhere near restriction (as in Zherbus' example) or are restricted with no chance of moving off that list in either direction (lotus, LED, etc.). As such the only cards that it could modify are those being created and designed. However, Wizards isn't going to make anything that's objectively good in type I because of how insanely good it would be in Standard. As is generally acknowledged, Will needs other good cards to work, and something must be too universally good in order to be worthy of banning. In fact, the argument for restriction says that no deck would give a fart in a windstorm.

I further maintain my position that subtracting from the cardpool does not help. To invigorate the motif of chess examples, let's say an unhealthy format is the equivalent of being down in pieces. Trading pieces will only increase the ratio by which you are down. facing one knight when you have only a few pawns is a lot worse than having lost a knight and that being the only change on either side of the board. The same is true for the cardpool, if we say that the powerful cards are the pieces. Removing one of them simply makes all the others more powerful, as Eastman pointed out. The policy that needs to be adopted is to print good cards. To me, a few turns of nail-biting, stomach-ulcerating, erectile-dysfunctionating struggle where each combatant's nerves are stretched to the breaking point wondering if his opponent has the one card to cover the match in a second darkness is a lot better than the slog of uneventful turns, which is the direction that taking away good cards leads to. Obviously, a lot of peolple enjoy that and play standard or block. They're the anemic people who shit their pants and break out in a collective cold sweat whenever someone mentions Urza's Block.

[Eastman]

I agree with you for the most part, Steve, though perhaps I don't see it as so much of a problem as you do. I do not necessarily advocate the banning of Yawgmoth's Will, but I also wouldn't object to it.


I do want to illustrate this point a little better however:

First, there is a class of spells that tend to win control mirrors historically in the late game.  

I have always tended to believe that the way to win a control mirror in the late game is by resolving a Mana Drain on your opponents turn.

The 'class of spells' you are talking about is the large group of powerful expensive sorceries that make their way around our format.

[Chamelet]

I get your point now.
I just don't think it should be banned because banning a card from Vintage is banning it from Magic at all, and that spoils everything the format is: where you can play with ALL your cards.
If Yawg Will exists, then we will have to deal with it.
And: it's a fun card to play. Everyone loves to play with it and I've never heard anyone complaining about it more than 1st turn 3sphere, meaning a Will is not that brutal to player interaction because it's a late game spell most of the times.
Maybe control mirror should be played like: I must cast my Will before he does. So, I must build a better deck that can abuse an early Will, and find Will faster, and protect the Will. And that's it. Mirror Strategy!
And, well, if Will was succesfully cast, maybe it's because you played wrong. Or just luck. Both of which are completely normal factors of the game.

[Matt]

...all of which begs the question, if Yawgmoth's Will were banned, could Burning Wish be unrestricted? Could Lion's Eye Diamond?

[Dr. Sylvan]

I just don't think it should be banned because banning a card from Vintage is banning it from Magic at all, and that spoils everything the format is: where you can play with ALL your cards.

I hate this concept more than almost any other B&R sacred cow. The play with all your cards defense strikes me as an intellectually lazy way to define the format. What if Wizards printed another tutor as good as Burning Wish? (It's not unrealistic: people dismissed Burning Wish for years.) Another mana filter as good as Chromatic Sphere? If Menendian premieres a deck that wins 70% on turn one without Spoils of the Vault, is Will sacred then? Making it a categorical imperative that all cards must remain legal is, in effect, claiming that you think the format would still be meaningful even if R&D made enough mistakes that restrictions don't matter. It also asserts that the format should always be getting more powerful, with occasional pauses right after a restriction.

I don't see why this is so important, or why someone would defend either of those positions. I'm fine with someone arguing that nothing should be banned immediately, because they are still arguing from the premise that B&R action is designed to keep the format sane (it is, by the way). Saying that all cards must remain legal regardless of arguments about their effect on gameplay is the opposite of that.

I have been fighting for this ever since my younger, more naive letter to Aaron Forsythe back in the day, and fourteen months ago I made the following statement

My point isn't"ban card X now," though Yawgmoth's Will is naturally the first card to come to almost everyone's mind. The point is that we shouldn't let a sentimental policy of"Type 1 is the format for every card" ruin the balance of sanctioned play; the B&R list policy should be made on the basis of retaining an adequate minimum of fairness necessary for the game to continue to enchant its players and attract new ones. The charm of Type 1 includes the idea of ridiculous game swings, but sometimes it's too much. The DCI should be unshackled and permitted to consider power level bans to maintain the format so many of us love.

I also addressed the flavor issue:

Besides, for as much flavor as I see in a format where every normal card is allowed at least in singles, I think we gain at least as much flavor in the mystical aura surrounding a card so powerful, so incredible that"even Type 1 couldn't hold it back." For some reason, the idea of an apocalyptic-power-level weapon that no wizard has access to is very appealing.

Isn't that what Type Zero is about? Doing stupid things and letting people win with ridiculous ease? I propose that we not tolerate utterly stupid things in Magic, and bannings are just an obvious way to do it.

As long as we're posting unfinished articles, I've got a highly relevant section that I almost left in the article that Knut says is going up in half an hour, but took out so it didn't detract from the parts I left in:

Why is the current problem different from issues in the past, when the public was pretty much objecting to one card powering a broken deck? I think that it's because the players that are dissatisfied cannot focus their dissatisfaction on any one thing--the [Drain, Workshop, Ritual triumvirate isn't] defining some single archetype, and they are all equally ridiculous. In fact, they each lend themselves to many different forms of abuse in many decks but almost never together. There is also a widespread belief that knocking out one will make it necessary to knock out the other two to maintain balance. I have frequently heard this analogized to turning T1 into Legacy, despite the fact that it doesn't connect to bannings directly at all.

The fear of a domino effect on the format's power level should the sacred cows start collapsing shows more clearly than I ever could that the public is aware of the unfairness of Type One. This fear prescribes that its adherents defend all of the oldest cards as a group in an effort to keep the furor at the furthest possible distance from the logical conclusion of trying to make a fair format: Legacy.

Unfortunately, as I said earlier, the current complaints aren't new, they don't fade with time, they aren't based on the success or failure of one broken deck, and they are all about the general power level of the format despite how balanced the archetypes are. I think it's pretty clear that this interest group is as attached to their Power Nine as their opponents, so they aren't switching formats, and they aren't going to go back to being satisfied customers until somehow the power level is altered. It's hard to blame them when the late-breaking news of January is a deck that goldfishes 70% on turn one (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandevent.php?Article=8768). This group might be taken as a measure of the funness of the format.

Consider that all three of those now-penultimate cards were made by 1994, before expansions even came in cycles. But there are other problems that have earned heavy flak created since then: Tolarian Academy, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Tendrils of Agony are the prime cards that come to mind. Tolarian Academy is probably the tamest card of this group in modern T1. (Let that sink in.) Until Scourge, no one really felt that bannings were automatically a part of the future. After the fiasco last winter, it's on everyone's mind, even if there's a lot of people who still feel it will not happen or does not have to happen.

After thinking about it quite a bit, I think there is a solution to the format identity crisis. Everyone knows the structural purpose of the PT formats and how they provide value to different groups of cards and for different amounts of time, but anyplace Survival of the Fittest is still legal is more of a gray area. To solidify the difference, Legacy's niche should be the biggest possible cardpool where Magic is fair, and Type One's should be the format where the "original spirit" of Magic persists. To preserve the Wild West vigilantism of old style Magic, nothing from before Mirage will ever be banned, but anything else is in-bounds to control the power level so that it's still fun. This would (a) guarantee the format's unique appeal and severe difference from Legacy, because just having the Moxes changes everything; (b) provide an unambiguous definition of what's sacred so that people stop fretting in much the same way everyone has stopped seriously expecting reprints; and (c) for goodness' sake finally let the sacred cows get a fair treatment and open up the road to a format that isn't always on the verge of exploding.

You'll notice that no one froths at the mouth when discussing Enlightened Tutor or Mox Diamond, and they only get that hyped up about restricting Trinisphere or banning Yawgmoth's Will because those are merely masks of what the domino effect fear is really worried about: losing the unique feel of Type One, which is largely a result of the Power Nine and a couple of other cards from the first year of Magic. Setting up an officially protected reserve of cards establishes the expected power level of the format, because all of those horrendous design errors are still there. With that as a baseline, I hope people would look more favorably on banning egregiously destructive cards.

EDIT: That article is here.

[Smmenen]

I agree with you for the most part, Steve, though perhaps I don't see it as so much of a problem as you do. I do not necessarily advocate the banning of Yawgmoth's Will, but I also wouldn't object to it.


I do want to illustrate this point a little better however:

First, there is a class of spells that tend to win control mirrors historically in the late game.  

I have always tended to believe that the way to win a control mirror in the late game is by resolving a Mana Drain on your opponents turn.

The 'class of spells' you are talking about is the large group of powerful expensive sorceries that make their way around our format.

Yawg Will makes a first main phase Mana Drain on FOW quite deadly as well.  I don't care when I play the mana drain as long I get to fuel the mana into  my Yawg Will turn.  

Again, the point is simple: I want decks to actually execute their game plans rather than do it by proxy via Will.  Psychatog should have to Berserk the Tog rather than Yawg Will, AK4, AK 3, Ancestral, Walk then Berserk the Tog.  

Taken alone I wouldn't consider the arguments sufficient to ban Yawg Will.  But in combination - when you stack them all up, they have unrelenting force.  When you think about what Yawg Will adds to the format (almost nothing positive) versus what it has cost us, the answer is clear.

[Cross]

If you start banning cards then where do you stop?

If yawgmoth’s will got banned, then everyone would say that tinker should be banned, then every would say tendrils should be banned? What about lotus, ancestral, twister, and channel? When does the format just become a slightly faster legacy?

If you ban a card then every overpowered card is under the microscope. You could argue that they would never go that far, but once you go down that road you can’t turn back. Just because you want a deck to win a certain way does not mean that the format should cater to you. If you want a deck to win without will then change formats. There are plenty of really good decks that don’t even run will and they are still viable. Dragon and stax have both put up very good numbers lately, and oath is still around too. All of these decks have the oops I win hands that everyone seems to be claiming is the reason yawg’s should be banned. Dragon just needs to repeatedly topdeck animate spells, stax just needs trini/crucible/any other lock components, and oath has the classic land mox oath.

If we’re going to ban a card we need to be at the point where it is impossible to win without that card. This is not the case now.

Personally I think the only cards that should be banned are the cards that already have been.

[Smmenen]

That's a fair point, but ultimately unwarranted.  

First of all, any card that would be banned would have to be so becuase of one reason: restriction is ineffective.  Restriction is ineffective in very, very few circumstances.   That provides a hefty barrier to banning that can only be overcome by a card that is so powerful that despite restriction, it is still being built around.  

Second, any card whose restriction is ineffective at ending its dominance SHOULD be considered for banning.  It's a justifiable event.  The only policy tool available for adjust the metagame externally is restriction (printing new cards and unrestriction don't help).  If that policy tool is ineffective, then that would certainly morally justify a banning.

In short, your slippery slope argument doesn't hold becuase there is a clear principle which holds in place any such movement.  That principle is what justifies banning.

[Cross]

I think it is. If banning is the answer for ineffective restriction should we also be discussing tinker or bargain/necro? These three are just as dominant just as cheap and just as game breaking as yawg’s. If we ban yawg’s then there’s no reason not to ban these three. Restriction has been ineffective at neutering the sheer awesomeness of these cards, and arguably just as many decks are “built” around these three. A type one without these four cards is not type one, it’s legacy, and it’s stupid.

Also I’m confused as to what principle you are referring too, please explain or clarify this principle.


Edit: instead of saying arguably I should post some real results.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8551

From Sylvan’s latest:
33 Tinker
20 Yawgmoth's Will

This is from December so we are missing many important months, and a shift in the meat game. Also consider the appearance of some other vintage bombs:

64 Black Lotus
53 Ancestral Recall
33 Demonic Tutor
30 Tolarian Academy
25 Vampiric Tutor

Why are we not discussing these cards, which are just as restricted, and used far more than yawgmoth’s will.

If you want to see a look at the cards over time, but less recent:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8393

_6.3, _5.6, _6.4, _5.7, _6.2, _6.3, _5.0, _7.0, _6.6, _7.0 Black Lotus
_6.3, _4.0, _6.0, _5.2, _6.2, _6.5, _6.3, _6.1, _6.2, _6.4 Ancestral Recall
_5.6, _2.8, _3.8, _4.0, _3.9, _4.3, _5.0, _3.8, _4.0, _4.1 Demonic Tutor
_3.0, _2.2, _3.1, _3.0, _5.6, _1.8, _3.0, _3.8, _4.0, _3.4 Tolarian Academy
_4.7, _2.4, _3.6, _2.8, _2.8, _3.2, _3.9, _2.8, _2.8, _2.9 Vampiric Tutor
_1.9, _1.2, _1.6, _1.1, _2.3, _1.7, _2.3, _2.1, _4.0, _2.9 Tinker
_3.9, _2.4, _3.4, _3.0, _3.3, _4.0, _3.7, _3.1, _3.6, _3.4 Yawgmoth's Will

Also:
_1.5, _0.2, _1.4, _0.8, _1.0, _0.8, _0.7, _0.9, _1.4, _1.1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
_1.5, _0.2, _1.2, _1.0, _1.1, _1.0, _1.1, _1.1, _1.6, _1.0 Necropotence

Admittedly I was not as correct about these two, but this article is from almost four months ago. Since then we have seen a rise in tps and other combo decks, including a return of trix, which is now seeing play thanks to Hulk3Rules placement at Waterbury. In fact there were two trix deck that I know of at the tourney I went to this weekend, and a oath rector deck.

[Royal Ass.]

If there had been a precident put in place years ago to ban cards in type one, Yawg Will would surely be banned by now.   The fact is, convincing people that banning should be a new policy in type one will be ten times more difficult than convencing people that yawg will deserves to be banned.  I agree with you 100 percent that yawg will should be banned.  It SHOULD be banned, but do I want to see a banning policy?  Well, not really. So I guess I'm saying that I think yawg will should be banned, but I DON'T want to see it happen.  And I'm sure a lot of others feel the same way.  Most people have accepted its stupid brokenness as a neccisary evil of type one because that is what defines the format to many.

I can Understand how many such as Smmenen, who really want to see type one become a "professional" format, are so bothered by a card like yawg will.   It totaly spits in the face of anyone who wants to see type one evolve past a "broken" format into one that can have an objectively balanced metagame where playskill is the number one focus.   Yawg will highlights one of the many conflicts in type one.  Can you have a PTQ style card pool and still have the aura that is type one?  Can you have your cake and eat it too?

[Cross]

Your post adds nothing to either side, and your just spamming unmitigated opinions. How can you make any sort of argument that yawg’s should be banned over any other card? 7 out of 8 decks were running black lotus in the stats above, the numbers don’t lie, lotus is best card in the format.

Furthermore, to sound like a broken record, how is tinker or necro any less broken, and any less deserving to be banned if we do consider banning cards? Again, look at the numbers, in December stats sylvan shows us that there are thirteen more tinkers in winning decks than yawg’s. Where do the results prove that one card is worse than any other? Where do the results show that yawg’s is so format distorting it should be banned?

[Jacob Orlove]

Necro is absolute garbage. In the past three weeks, I've had opponents resolve necro against me more than once--and they never won the game. It's no good in fast combo, because you have to pass the turn. It's no good in TPS, because you lose if they have Duress or anything else.

Tinker is a card that it is more than possible to recover from. A single Goblin Welder on the other side of the board makes Tinker much less broken, while Tinker itself is much worse for you than Will if it is countered.

Black Lotus is certainly the best card in the game, but in a format where everyone must prepare for so much acceleration, a turn one lotus is simply not game over.

If we looked just at how many decks a given card saw play in, ISLAND would be restricted. Clearly, we have to look at what a card does, and its effect on the format, rather than merely how much play it sees.

[Necrologia]

Necro is absolute garbage.

You mean in comparison to Will right? Cause any other way you slice it that statement's 100% false, and even then it's a little shady.

Outside of SX which aims for a turn 1 kill, all other forms of speed combo aim for turn 2. That makes necro absolutely insane. I've never lost a game with Long after resolving a necro unless I had <10 life to begin with and a Juggy on the otherside of the table.

Even TPS which has less bombs than Long can easily draw into force + blue card + broken. Even if they don't get the force and are duressed, you can just draw some more cards.

Necro gets you the perfect goldfish against aggro, lets you overpower control by dropping multiple bombs over a turn or 2, and lets you find your MD hate against shops. How on earth can you call the best draw engine ever printed garbage?

[Razvan]

In Type 2, you can discuss banning of a card because of overwhelming numbers.

In Type 1, you would have to start by banning Islands and Dual Lands.

The formats work differently.

You deal with a card if it is a problem, not because it is played. As Smmennen said, control mirrors come down to whom resolves Yawgmoth's Will, NOT Ancestral Recall. Yeah, a +2 card boost is nice, but it's not gamebreaking. Replaying every turn so far is.

Also, as far as I can tell, Control Slaver uses black specifically for the Will, and use DT just because it's a cool black card...

I don't really have an opinion as to whether to ban Will or not, but if you want to go down that route, it would definately be the first.

[Nehptis]

Steve, I think the section of the article about banning Will is an article in its own right.  I'd like to see that section alone formalized and published.  I've played T1 for a long time and the examples and perspectives that your article and Dr. Sylvan's first post highlight regarding the abusiveness and the single game distortion that is caused by Will are very accurate.

Cross: Your post adds nothing to either side, and your just spamming unmitigated opinions. How can you make any sort of argument that yawg’s should be banned over any other card? 7 out of 8 decks were running black lotus in the stats above, the numbers don’t lie, lotus is best card in the format.

Re-read Steve's article.  The argument for banning is not based upon the stats of how often a card appears.  As someone mentioned, if this were true then Islands would be the first to go.  The basis for banning is exactly what Steve described above.

Steve: First of all, any card that would be banned would have to be so because of one reason: restriction is ineffective. Restriction is ineffective in very, very few circumstances. That provides a hefty barrier to banning that can only be overcome by a card that is so powerful that despite restriction, it is still being built around.
Second, any card whose restriction is ineffective at ending its dominance SHOULD be considered for banning. It's a justifiable event. The only policy tool available for adjust the meta game externally is restriction (printing new cards and unrestriction don't help). If that policy tool is ineffective, then that would certainly morally justify a banning.

I too despise hearing the whining about T1 being the format to play all MTG cards.  If you feel strongly about this then play casual matches.  Tournaments are competitive events and there is no room for excuses like I don't want to see bannings because then I can't play all my cards.  It's equivalent to a Major League Baseball rookie complaining that throughout his career he purchased and used Aluminum bats.  And now he doesn't want to play in MLB because Aluminum is banned.  Well guess what, according to the MLB association it is their view that aluminum bats would lessen the competitive edge and distort the game.  So does resolving a Will, IMO.

So, I'd like to see the section about Will in Steve's article published.  I hope it sparks some investigation into the matter by the DCI.  If the reason that Chaos Orb and Falling Star are banned is because there is no room for dexterity and luck in competitive play, then how is that any different than the dexterity and luck that it takes to reach over, grab Will off the top of your library, resolve it and win the game.  You're surely not guaranteed to win by top decking a Lotus or even Tinker.  But, I'm sure stats could easily be shown to suggest that a very high percentage of games are won as soon as a Yawgmoth's "Win" resolves.

Note: I play TOA combo exclusively in T1.  So, I'm a user and abuser of Will.  Still, I think it should go.

[Eastman]

I agree with you 100 percent that yawg will should be banned. It SHOULD be banned, but do I want to see a banning policy? Well, not really.

This is exactly how I feel. I also believe that all cards should be allowed in T1. That is a large part of it's allure - it's the meanest, brokenest format.

I too despise hearing the whining about T1 being the format to play all MTG cards.  If you feel strongly about this then play casual matches.  Tournaments are competitive events and there is no room for excuses like I don't want to see bannings because then I can't play all my cards.  

You're actually a little mixed up. Don't get me wrong, I'm a highly competitive player, but as much as we do what we can to make T1 competitive, there is a limit to how far it can go.. The formats run on the Pro Tour are much more competitive (and lucrative) than Vintage will ever be. If YOU feel so strongly about playing competitively, than I suggest you take up one of the uber competitive PT formats. The flavor and brokenness in Vintage is its defining quality.

Well guess what, according to the MLB association it is their view that aluminum bats would lessen the competitive edge and distort the game. So does resolving a Will, IMO.

ACTUALLY they still use old timey wooden bats in baseball because they have no reason to change. History is a huge part of the allure of baseball, and MLB tries to avoid modernizing the game (see: no instant replay). Your reference is actually a fitting example of why bannings should not occur - to preserve the history and flavor of the game.

[Dr. Sylvan]

My post before was extremely long, so the idea may have been lost in the shuffle: what do those who value the "historical allure" argument think about the idea of making pre-Mirage cards unbannable, but freeing up the DCI to remove more recent cards when they are just too much for the format's health?

[Outlaw]

I have feelings that Yawgmoth's Will should NOT be banned, why you may ask?  We'll I piloted Control Slavery (Rich Shay based) to 5-6th at Waterbury, yes I abused will a few games, but it didnt win me more than a slaver activation or welder supriority.  Now look at the finals, both decks didnt use Will at all and surpassed ones that did.  I lost to Ultima and he didnt even use Will what so ever,  yet he beat me by sheer card advantage (and luck, lucky lucky guy   )  Will is a good card, yes but not bannable in my eyes.  Control mirrors are defined by skill and card advantage (yes will warrants advantage) but skill prevents the will.

[jpmeyer]

To me, it would seem that if Will were to be banned, it would have less to do with what decks are running it and more to do with it causing massive design headaches for R&D, for instance when they print something like Gifts Ungiven and massive warning bells start going off in my head simply because Will exists.

[Cross]

Well obviously if you look at sheer numbers, but I was referring solely to restricted cards, and it is absolutely ridiculous to mention island as a counter argument when considering numbers. Comparing island and Yawgmoth’s will is insane. Saying something like that is just trying to make me look like an idiot, and not addressing the real issue at all. My main argument is that if we need to ban a card we need some way to quantify why we should ban it. Right now, our best way to quantify a certain cards dominance is to look at tournament results and Dr. Sylvan’s stats. Considering Steve’s article there are plenty of examples you could bring up as to why yawg’s is so good; however, there are plenty of other examples as to why tinker and necro/bargain are just as game breaking.

The tinker with a welder in play is just silly. It is the same as saying you can’t cast yawg’s with tormod’s in play. Obviously you’re not going to cast tinker when your opponent has welder superiority, unless you’re tinkering for trike to get welder superiority of your own. Tinker wins plenty of games on the first turn with lots of protection, and it even wins lots of games without protection. Same goes for Necro/bargain, which are stupid good, even if they are disrupted.

Most importantly the top two decks at Waterbury did not even use yawgmoth’s will. If Yawgmoth’s is so format disrupting then why is the biggest tournament of the year won by a deck without yawg’s?

Also in terms of historical allure, this should not even be considered because there’s no way to quantify it. We need to realize that banning is way more than just restricting a card, banning means never again. Banning is so drastic. We can’t just do this because people are not adjusting to the meta game, we need to make very sure that there is no way for the meta game to recover from a certain card before we ditch it forever. I feel we need a way to quantify it, and the only way we can do that is through the numbers. Where are the numbers that say it is impossible to win without yawg’s? Never mind islands, or any non-restricted card. How is the format so distorted that we need to get rid of yawg’s? Not just I lost to a top-decked yawg’s once, but where are the results that say Yawg’s consistently wins everything, and is played in every deck because it is impossible to win without. That should be the case for everything, and it is the same way with bannings in type 2. It was not possible to win without skullclamp, so they banned it.

[Cafe_Cafe]

Oh look, a list of cards! How about next time, you make an actual argument, instead?

-Jacob