Poll- Do you want to see a change in the B&R?

[TracerBullet]

After reading the thread in the T1 forum "Do you enjoy playing Type One", it got me to thinking as to how many people think that the metagame has gotten stagnant/boring/unbalanced, and made me curious as to what a poll would turn out.


This topic is meant to be a simple poll as to how many people want some change to the banned and restricted list on March 1st. This thread is not about what change you think needs to be made, simply if you think a change does need to be made.

Pat

[Jacob Orlove]

I voted no, because the only kind of change I'd want to see would be far, far greater in scope than anything they've ever done to any non-(1.5->Legacy) format.

[Triple_S]

I voted yes, since from GenCon of last year I have been a fan of the 'nuke the format idea'.  Ideally I would like to see something that equally devestated control/combo/aggro and peg my hit list like this (just my thoughts and no I won't provide reasons):

-Dark Ritual
-ESG
-Trinisphere
-Goblin Welder
-Intuition

I am still on the fence about Mana Drain though I would say that should go also.  And Bazaar and MWS as well.

[Jacob Orlove]

If we really wanted a slower, fairer format, we'd be trying to put the following cards on the restricted list: Mishra's Workshop, Ancient Tomb, Intuition, Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Land Grant, maybe ESG and Trinisphere, and (I can't believe I'm typing this) possibly Brainstorm.

That list should include Welder, and maybe Bazaar.

[Smmenen]

For the first time in 15 months, my view changes to YES.  What I want restricted will be clear this week.

[Hi-Val]

I voted yes, since from GenCon of last year I have been a fan of the 'nuke the format idea'.  Ideally I would like to see something that equally devestated control/combo/aggro and peg my hit list like this (just my thoughts and no I won't provide reasons):

-Dark Ritual
-ESG
-Trinisphere
-Goblin Welder
-Intuition

I am still on the fence about Mana Drain though I would say that should go also.  And Bazaar and MWS as well.

With restrictionslike that, why not just play Legacy? It was meant for a restricted list like what you proposed. Playing aggro with moxes and giving the game to whoever finds Balance first doesn't sound like a healthy T1.

That being said, unrestrictions seem to open up new possibilities for decks, so here's pulling for monogreen ChannelBelcher!

[Necrologia]

I voted yes. Voltaic Key needs to be unrestricted.  

The format has become significantly faster recently, and I'm not sure what, if anything needs to be done. On one hand I like how the top decks are well defined, and how there are several equally powerful decks to choose from.

On the other hand, the format seems to have balanced out at quite a high power level, and I'm not sure if I like it or not. In other words, if wizards were to nuke the format I'd be able to live with it. If wizards does nothing, that's fine too.

[Matt]

With restrictionslike that, why not just play Legacy? It was meant for a restricted list like what you proposed. Playing aggro with moxes and giving the game to whoever finds Balance first doesn't sound like a healthy T1.

That being said, unrestrictions seem to open up new possibilities for decks, so here's pulling for monogreen ChannelBelcher!

SoLoMoxCrypt, Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon. Maybe Replenish. All would drastically alter 1.5. It would be LIKE 1.5 but much stronger - think of the comparison between the last 1.x that allowed Dual Lands and the 1.x that immediately followed. They're both extended, and yet they aren't even at all the same format. The SoLoMoxCrypt (and Academy!) alone would revitalize Belcher to unacceptable levels, were they allowed as 1-ofs in Legacy.

[xthexpunisherx]

I voted yes.  Take either Trinisphere or Crucible of Worlds and restrict it.  I really don't have that much of a problem with Trinisphere but when you get the hard lock with Crucible as early as turn two its not even close to fair.  Crucible has made us think more about our mana base selections but does that help the format?  Its nice that we have to use more basic lands now against wasteland (and titan) but I don’t feel that playing 2 island vs. 1 should be the difference between win and loss when playing against someone who has crucible out with waste in the ‘yard.  We talked about its restriction when we heard about its effect no one may be talking about it now (in public at least) but I think it would be best if crucible got the axe.

[Moxlotus]

I voted no.  The huge variety of decks in the format makes it extremely enjoyable.  I was not a fan of 1998 T1.  If I wanted to nuke the format, I'd rather play Legacy.

[virtual]

I'm tired of building mana bases that have to attempt a game vs turn 1 trinisphere... probably just laziness though...

[xrizzo]

I voted 'no' for fear they will restrict the wrong card.  (or that they will ban A card)

[Shock Wave]

I voted yes.

- Trinisphere

and if necessary (highly probable it will be),

- Dark Ritual

I don't see a mass overhaul necessary yet, although it may be in the near future. Cards like Goblin Welder and Intuition are obviously retarded, but I don't think they are as problematic as the obvious main offenders.

[Kasuras]

I voted yes. First of all because the format at the moment is not much fun because not enough players try to break something, a new unrestricted/restricted card would lend for a new metagame and thus new decks.

And also because I don't like certain decks that are around; take me back to the paradise city where the fundamental turn is 2+ and the plays are pretty.

[Toad]

I vote Yes because I hope they will ban the artifact lands to create a balanced Standard metagame. And Aether Vial in Extended, because It's just nuts.

If this is just for T1, well I obviously got to vote No because every single time someone starts complaining about a broken-deck-that-is-impossible-to-beat, then that deck stops showing in Top8 about a month later. Chalice of the Void is the first card that comes to my mind. See B&R discussions from December 2003. Now I would probably mention Crucible of Worlds and Trinisphere, cards that are at the moment nowhere seen to be dominating Top8s.

I hate Dark Ritual though. But hating a card is definitly not a reason to ban something.

[jpmeyer]

While I definitely wouldn't mind a format nuke, I'm not smart enough to know just how far to go with it and what the consequences would be.  A format nuke that doesn't go far enough does nothing except make people really unhappy since the decks that they didn't like are still around and it's even worse because there are now more cards that you can't play with.

[Eddie]

I voted no. Should be yes if a change would result in people stop bitching about it. But this wouldn't happen. If they restricted card X, they'd bitch about card Y.

[Smmenen]

T1 is always going to be imperfect.  

Once you have a format nuke, the format becomes retarded becuase Mana Drain either is dominant or has to go.  And if it goes, well you remember what happened to extended late 2003.  It would be like that, but with highlander combo running around.  So yeah, stupid.

[Kowal]

I have no problem with Mana Drain being dominant.  It encourages player interaction.

[MrZuccinniHead]

I voted no because Vintage seems very diverse and entertaining right now.

[jpmeyer]

I have no problem with Mana Drain being dominant.  It encourages player interaction.

Mana Drain encourages interaction, until you win the game next turn.

[Kowal]

JP, that's oversimplifying things.  There are lots of player interactions leading up to the point of somebody winning, because the more powerful cards in a Mana Drain deck cannot (often) be played so early that opportunities for superior skill show up.  This is in direct contrast to the real problems with the format (Ritual and Trinisphere) because they can be played on turn one and just end the game.

In order to set up a drain in to the win play, you need to make a very high concentration of difficult decisions leading in to it.  You can't fall ass backwards in to it unless your opponent is a buffoon...  Or you're playing with Dark Ritual and/or Trinisphere.

[xrizzo]

I have no problem with Mana Drain being dominant.  It encourages player interaction.

Mana Drain encourages interaction, until you win the game next turn.

I remember reading an article you wrote, JP, that explained how incredibly simple it is to play around mana drain.  It is a solid card, no question, but I am with Kowal here, at least it forces player interaction.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Almost every decent card we have in T1, limits player interaction.  

People are still bitching about workshops, 3sphere, cruc, storm, etc.

Yet they really don't have the t8 weight as other decks do (Control Slaver)

Like somoene else said something along the lines as people bitch when there are 2-3 workshops in a t8, but don't complain with like 10+ slaver decks in the t16.

I like broken cards. I like casting huge wills, turn 1 3sphere, infinite slaver recursions, giant togs, R 1/1 broken creatures.  If i wanted to play a format where all those cards are nuked, id play 1.5 or extended.

People complain so much when the format slaps them around.... and they don't spend enough time making decks that slap the shit out of other people.

[Toad]

A resolved Mana Drain often ends up the game too. It's far more subtile than Dark Ritual and Trinisphere, but It's extremely devastating. When you are running a Mana Drain deck, you often find yourself draining irrelevant stuff just for the mana acceleration It provides. Mana Drain does not encourage player interaction. It encourages broken plays.

[TracerBullet]

I'm looking for a format nuke along the lines of the extended Trix nuke, when Necro and Consult were nuked to remove that, Replenish was nuked to take out PandeBurst, and Survival was taken out because it would have been the last man standing otherwise.

[xrizzo]

I'm looking for a format nuke along the lines of the extended Trix nuke, when Necro and Consult were nuked to remove that, Replenish was nuked to take out PandeBurst, and Survival was taken out because it would have been the last man standing otherwise.

This is a bit too drastic.  As recenlty as December, a lot of people were saying how excited they are to play in this new format because so many decks are playable.  Worldwide, we have seen many different types of decks win.  Sure the last few major P9 tournaments have had a large degree of control slaver decks, but if nothing changes this restriction season, I would not be surprized to see a meta-game answer to control slaver.  

Back to Mana Drain, sure draining your opponents brainstorm/timewalk/cunning wish is really good, (nets you 1-2-3 mana) but very seldom does it mean 'game over' the next turn.  It gives the drain player a tempo boost, but it is not insurmountable by any means.  A workshop gives a 3 mana boost every turn.  Drain requires you to have a good sink for the mana (scrying, intuition/AK, slaver) so you intuition/AK and draw 3 cards.  This is nearly the same as ancestral recall for 5 mana.  You just used 7 spots in your deck to ensure this, and you won't be able to hardcast a counter on their turn.   Is it game over?  Hardly.

[Smmenen]

JP, that's oversimplifying things.  There are lots of player interactions leading up to the point of somebody winning, because the more powerful cards in a Mana Drain deck cannot (often) be played so early that opportunities for superior skill show up.  This is in direct contrast to the real problems with the format (Ritual and Trinisphere) because they can be played on turn one and just end the game.

In order to set up a drain in to the win play, you need to make a very high concentration of difficult decisions leading in to it.  You can't fall ass backwards in to it unless your opponent is a buffoon...  Or you're playing with Dark Ritual and/or Trinisphere.

The fact that you would sanction dominance in the format is ridiculously laughable.  

Also, anyone who claims that Drain decks are harder to play than Ritual decks makes me laugh so hard.  Drain decks simply require experience.  Ritual decks require not just experience but you have to actually think through all kinds of lines of play.

[Kowal]

Ritual decks don't require an opponent.

[Smmenen]

No deck "requires" an opponent.  Tog doesn't require an opponent.  Nor does  Mono blue or control slaver.

You need to stop playing TPS.  Every Doomsday should be designed for a specific circumstance of the match.  That's why Dday is hard to play - becuase 50% of the time, you'll be doing unique ddays.  Every Meandeath play depends entirely upon what your opponent is playing.  

Regardless of interactivity - Ritual decks are harder to play.  And you would openly sanction dominance in this format.  That's not good.