A radical restriction proposal explained

[Jacob Orlove]

To begin, I need to say that while I am calling for many cards to be restricted, if only one or two of these cards get seriously considered, I'd rather see no restrictions at all. The format right now is broken AND balanced, and restrictions have to maintain that balance while removing the brokenness.

Here's all the cards whose head I'd like to see on a pike:
Mishra's Workshop
Ancient Tomb
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Elvish Spirit Guide
Trinisphere
Intuition
Mana Drain
Bazaar of Baghdad
Goblin Welder
Land Grant

Remember, we'd still have one copy of each of these to play with! This is utterly unlike a ban in other formats, where the card is gone for good.

Let's begin with the two Workshops. Clearly, if we want to slow down the format, and make it more fair, Workshop has to go. However, if we really want to have any effect on 'Shop decks, Ancient Tomb also has to bite the bullet. 1 Workshop 4 Tomb is certainly worse than 4 shops, but not worse enough to really matter. Once you get to 1 Shop 1 Tomb 2+ City of Traitors, you have a "fair" workshop manabase: one that still allows for the archetype to survive, but not one that leaves prison in a position to dominate the format.

Next, the two Rituals. As with Workshop, if we want the restriction of the big guy to mean anything, we have to hit his little buddy. I know Cabal Ritual seems innocuous, but it's honestly not really worse than Lotus Petal, especially if you have any chance of hitting threshold with it.

Elvish Spirit Guide? Again, fast mana fuels combo. ESG doesn't see much play in storm combo, but it's a house in belcher-type decks, allowing for much faster kills than should be possible. Tinder Wall, Desperate Ritual, and Seething Song are the "third tier" of mana acceleration that might also need to be nerfed, but for now, hitting just ESG should be enough to neuter the turbo-anything decks.

Trinisphere. Even with the restrictions on Shop and Tomb, it would be laughably easy to drop this turn one, which is just unacceptable on a consistent basis. The card doesn't hold combo or control in check--it just outright beats everything else, which can't deal with it. That should give you an idea, by the way, of just how strong combo is right now. This is pretty much the only card that makes it worth it to play City of Traitors on turn 1.

Intuition. People are abusing this card like craaaazy. When it just gets AKs or DAs, the card is good. When it sets up a welder win as early as turn 2, it's broken. Intuition has become an instant speed, blue demonic that gets you three cards. With the mana acceleration in Type One, it has to go (like how Fact is broken here and not in extended).

Mana Drain. This card would utterly dominate the format if the other changes I suggest were made. Control would still exist with just one Drain, it just wouldn't win every game where drain resolved.

Bazaar of Baghdad. We're finally starting to break this card again. It's absurdly overpowered, especially in a format with slower combo and weaker workshop decks.

Goblin Welder. This little guy taps to win the game. For one mana, he gives you free Tinkers, makes your artifacts uncounterable, and brings them back when they die. As long as moxes exist in T1, welder will be the best creature in the format.

Land Grant. This card lets stupid things happen. Sure, Stompy used to play it, but Sui used to play Ritual. We've moved beyond that, and Land Grant is now a key enabler of turn one kills.

A few other notes: Thirst for Knowledge just doesn't seem strong enough to restrict, and Brainstorm, while it seems strong enough, should probably receive the same protection Force of Will gets.

[Triple_S]

Thank you for very eloquently stating many of the ideas I've had for several months now.  This is something I can get behind 100% and will allow for a more thorough exploration of the format since more decks will now be viable.  As it stands now nearly every competitive deck has to:
1.  Play a turn 1 Welder and then pray for turn 2 if they don't have force.
2.  Play a turn 1 Trinisphere
3.  Win on turn 1.

[JACO]

With that list of resrictions, I think what you might be asking for is a new format.

Fortunately for you, Wizards has already listened to your concerns, and there've acted to already make something available for your pleasure! It's called 'Legacy,' formerly known as Type 1.5. You get to play a lot of good cards, but none of the really most broken ones. How exciting! Many popular websites already have forums for the new format.

Seriously, if all of you people hate Type 1 that much, or can't stomach the brokeness that happens when you're allowed to be really creative and make the best decks, you should try playing Type 1.5 aka Legacy. I'm not trying to hate or slight anyone, but what I'm saying is there's already a format like the one you are looking for. Type 1.5 fills the void between bah-roken (Type 1/Vintage) and bo-ring (Type 2). It eliminates the huge swings of top-decks. It basically solves all the complaints I've heard so far in every thread every 3 months since over a year ago:
1) Get rid of Mishra's Workshop
2) Get rid of Mana Drain
3) Make Trinisphere/Crucible unplayable on the first turn
3) Ban Yawgmoth's Will
4) Let me play with an assload of non-basic lands and have no accountability to hate
5) Eliminate riduculous combo decks, or at least make them work much harder to be good
6) Neuter the strength of Goblin Welder
7) Ban/Neuter the strength of Bazaar of Baghdad


If you want a 'nuke the world' format, it already exists.[/b]
Please don't mess up the one format that is slightly different, just because people are finally making good decks. Allow the people who want to make bah-roken plays to make those plays.

What you all need to realize is that their already exists a 'toned down' environment that fits what most of you who don't find Vintage enjoyable/fun are looking for. Legacy is actually very fun, so you should give it a try if you are looking for a release from the bah-rokeneness that is Type 1. The format is wide open, and has a HUGE variety of playable and competitive decks, and seems to solve most of the gripes and banning/restricting calls that many have bandied about.



You can love me or hate me, but just realize what I've written is the truth.

[Godot]

Actually I think Highlander is a better comparison to 'nuked' Type 1 than Legacy.  The format would still be ridiculously broken as Moxen, Will, Recall etc. are all still around, but the games wouldnt be ending by turn 1/2 as often.

As for the list of cards Jacob proposed, the only one I really dont understand is ESG.  I always thought it was fairly balanced.  You're effectively putting all your eggs in one basket.  If the threat you're investing in gets taken care you end up pretty far behind your opponent on resources.  Thats one card I'd have to see actually get broken before it gets restricted.

[Triple_S]

No JACO, you have written your opinion, just as others have written their opinions.  So please do not tell anyone what is or isn't the true when the fact is this is NOT a black and white issue.  Clearly there are shades of grey.  And if a large number of the Adepts on the site are stating their displeasure about the format then clearly something needs to be done.  Orloves eloquent post is one proposal towards what could be done.  Is it severe?  Yes.  Is it likely to be implemented?  No.  Do I agree with it?  As I posted before, yes.  So please don't start with the if you don't like it go to Legacy.  Clearly people who have played at the highest levels of the format have a pretty good idea that something is wrong.  And that is true.

[Smmenen]

I completely agree with Jaco.  

I also think that T1 is in a transition period.  We were dominated by control for so long and people blindly accepted it.  Lots of old players who played in that metagame are going to continue to leave the format - I know this is true. It's sad to see them go, but changes the format to a mana drain based dominance format is basically stupid.  

The only nuking I would agree with is if Drain went.  But I can virtually promise you, that if Drain went, Control decks would go with them.  

Our format would be like this:

Tier two combo decks just goldfishing against each other with FOW.  But no genuine control deck.

[Shock Wave]

Jacob: What I really don't understand is what you're basing your candidates for restriction on. Your initial post carries the implication that you're aware of how the format functions under such conditions. You do not, nor does anyone else that posts with such suggestions.

Anyone who makes such claims needs to reevaluate their understanding of the factors that contribute to a balanced environment (namely, the functionality of at least 20 playable decks). Can anyone out there tell me that they have evidence gathered from a metagame where such restrictions exist thats suggest such an environment is the direction in which we want to push this format? I didn't think so.

It's easy to say things like "Cabal Ritual seems innocuous, but is really broken" and it is another to try and actually use that card given the restriction of Dark Ritual.

If it were up to me, we'd be taking this one step at a time, starting with Trinisphere, and dropping the axe again when there is ample reason to do so. We don't want a highlander format, so let's be careful with what we're suggesting in these threads.

[Triple_S]

Hitting Trinisphere, Ritual, Drain, and Welder would do wonders towards allowing innovation and revitalizing a stagnant format.  When you have half the decks in the t8 running Welder, and several big events being won on the strength of Trinisphere alone, something needs to be done.  Hitting Ritual and Welder would be preemptive measures against those archtypes running rough shot on the format.  If Drain were only used in decks such as k-e-e-p-e-r it would be fine.  But it isn't and as such I feel for the health of the format long term it should go as well.  Do I have any evidence that this would create a fresher and more interesting format?  No.  But by doing nothing and keeping the format as it is does nothing to help increase interest in Vintage.  It is my theory that leaving the format as is will bring greater apathy to the active Vintage player base and a waning in the popularity it has enjoyed in recent years.  Of course that is my opinion, I could be wrong.

(edit:  removed double post)

[Machinus]

I agree with Jaco and Smmenen.

I think Drain is where the power level of restrictions should stop. Kowal is right about the interactivity of the card (something that we want MORE of, right?), but also, the card is not as unbalanced as the others that we might seriously consider. It is a reactive card, and it costs two blue, which means the game has gone two turns and you still haven't made any huge broken plays (probably, barring a sick hand, which is something you sign up for when you play Vintage). "Control" as a super-archetype needs to exist for this format to be enjoyable. Drain is at the heart of "balance" as we know it, canceling out the most broken plays, adding more decisions, prolonging the game, and adding interaction.

I think an important factor to consider is how this so called "stagnation" occurs in the first place. If you are unhappy with the speed and power of the decks in the format, then think about what it is you actually want.

Currently, in Vintage, there exist:

- Very large, regular tournaments, with big prizes
- Many teams who innovate and test, and add much to the format
- A large and interactive community of players, where anything about the format can be discussed
- Growing numbers of players
- Many new playable cards, and new decks, in the last year

Isn't it the success of the format that is "ruining" it?

[JACO]

No JACO, you have written your opinion, just as others have written their opinions.  So please do not tell anyone what is or isn't the true when the fact is this is NOT a black and white issue.  Clearly there are shades of grey.  And if a large number of the Adepts on the site are stating their displeasure about the format then clearly something needs to be done.  Orloves eloquent post is one proposal towards what could be done.  Is it severe?  Yes.  Is it likely to be implemented?  No.  Do I agree with it?  As I posted before, yes.  So please don't start with the if you don't like it go to Legacy.  Clearly people who have played at the highest levels of the format have a pretty good idea that something is wrong.  And that is true.

Shane, the Banned/Restricted list is certainly a grey area; I do concur with your sentiments about that. And yes, obviously what I have written is my opinion, and it's based on facts that I will lay out here.

Would you deny that many people have been clamoring for the following over the past year, creating a 'nuked/reset' environment?

1) Get rid of Mishra's Workshop
2) Get rid of Mana Drain
3) Make Trinisphere/Crucible unplayable on the first turn
3) Ban Yawgmoth's Will
4) Let me play with an assload of non-basic lands and have no accountability to hate
5) Eliminate riduculous combo decks, or at least make them work much harder to be good
6) Neuter the strength of Goblin Welder
7) Ban/Neuter the strength of Bazaar of Baghdad

Would you deny that Legacy provides this nuked world?

Mana Drain - BANNED
Mishra's Workshop - BANNED
Bazaar of Baghdad - BANNED
Yawgmoth's Will - BANNED
Tendrils of Agony - IRRELEVANT

These assertions are ones that nearly anyone can come to, so I don't see why they are false. Would you deny that the Legacy format ALREADY provides the perfect stomping ground for players that want this 'scorched earth' environment?

I've noticed that most of the Type 1 players here don't play Type 1.5. Most of the time when I talk to the players on the West Coast about playing, they aren't interested "because you can't play all the broken cards." I am merely stating that if people don't want "the broken cards" to be relevant to begin with (as is what seems to be the case with many of the 'Vintage Adepts,' as you put it), then you should seriously look at Legacy as a 'fun' format to play. I play it nearly every week, and play in the biggest Legacy tournaments held on a regular basis (in San Diego; 40-60 people every Friday night), and I love it.

I'm not saying there is no place for you or others like you in Vintage. Team ShortBus is probably my favorite team, and one that I recognize as one of the best, along with CAB, MeanDeck, and whatever teams the strongest Italians (Pietro Cavaletti, Filipo Grigatti, Lorenzo Fedeli) belong to. This is where a lot of the innovation in Type 1 comes from, and I certainly recognize that. What I'm saying is, if the bah-rokeness or huge tempo swings are what's turning so many people off, I would strongly suggest looking into Legacy, because it fills that role of the format that a few very vocal people seem to be looking for, where there is a 'scorched earth' reset of Vintage's power level. It's just that practically nobody knows about it yet.

TMD user bedafile wrote in Smmenen's 'Do you enjoy playing T1' thread

Maybe it's time for the founding father's to fade away into marriage and careers and obscurity and have a younger generation with a vibrant and healthy attitude take over T1?

I'm not sure what forum or thread it was in, but someone else echoed this statement by basically saying that it seems many of the older players are not happy with the current format because it is not as slow as it once was, and the power level of the decks is much higher. I'm not sure if that's true for most of the 'old timers' or not (partly because I've been playing Type 1 since Unlimited/Arabian/Antiquities, and I don't feel that way). But it certainly is an interesting observation.

One thing that has been largely underdiscussed in all of the ban/restrict XYZ threads that occur every quarter, is the fact that in Type 1 people are starting to push development to new levels. Compared to the development cycle of decks 3 to 4 years ago, the innovation and development of decks now is light years ahead of anything the format has ever seen. Think about how many decks (and variations of those decks) have been spawned in the past 2 years alone. It's not just the new cards that are being introduced, but it is also that people are starting to get serious about deckbuilding, and pushing the design envelope.

This pushing of development is going to continue every quarter of every year moving forward, now that Vintage has started to take off from the ground (ironically, thanks to large contributions from many who longer play or enjoy the game). If you restrict 5-10 cards here or there, the decks and development are just going to continue to move forward (albeit being worse off). So what is the point of clamoring for the restriction/banning of XYZ? This is the definition of a slippery slope, and will just continue every quarter if you people had your way. Frankly, I think it's bullshit, because it's just a cop out to let the DCI handle people's problems with the format because they aren't willing to invest the time to deal with building better decks, and metagame foils for what already exists. If everyone really 'loves' the format so much, they should do a better job paying attention to the metagame and available card pool, and start digging for the Coffin Purge/Lava Dart/Arcane Laboratory/Hannah's Custody type metagame cards that help deal with problematic decks.


Don't use the DCI as a crutch so you won't have to pay attention to the format. Put the work in so the DCI doesn't have to.

EDIT: This seems to be the first 'restriction' thread of its kind that doesn't totally suck, and has any kind of substance to it. Keep it up!

[Shock Wave]

Hitting Trinisphere, Ritual, Drain, and Welder would do wonders towards allowing innovation and revitalizing a stagnant format.  When you have half the decks in the t8 running Welder, and several big events being won on the strength of Trinisphere alone, something needs to be done.  Hitting Ritual and Welder would be preemptive measures against those archtypes running rough shot on the format.  If Drain were only used in decks such as k-e-e-p-e-r it would be fine.  But it isn't and as such I feel for the health of the format long term it should go as well.  Do I have any evidence that this would create a fresher and more interesting format?  No.  But by doing nothing and keeping the format as it is does nothing to help increase interest in Vintage.  It is my theory that leaving the format as is will bring greater apathy to the active Vintage player base and a waning in the popularity it has enjoyed in recent years.  Of course that is my opinion, I could be wrong.

.. and I would contend that you are, not because you claim that the format needs change (because I believe it does as well), but because you seem very hasty to draw conclusions about the candidates for restriction. Why is it necessary to go ape shit all of a sudden? Trinisphere is understandable, for several reasons, but Goblin Welder? Yes, it is a hideous 1 drop. However, the thing is not invincible.

All the talk about the other candidates for restriction is rather whimsical. We may infer that Dark Ritual will wreak havoc if left unbridled, but do we really know if SoR and CotV and other hate will suffice in hindering it? Why not try as opposed to jumping the gun? What's the worst that can happen? Can the format get any shittier than it currently is? I don't think so. Correct me if I am wrong, but somehow I remember a lot of people commenting that the format was fucking golden until Trinisphere reared its ugly head. Why not try to right the issue by correcting the initial problem, instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

Again, we can restrict everything, but I'm going down tooth and nail before this format turns into highlander.

[Triple_S]

I don't necessarily pine for the days of keeper, Vengeur Masque, and Butter knives. I can play Legacy for that, that is true.  But I would like to see a format the does have an element of interactiveness that extends beyond the opening pleasantries you exchange with your opponent before drawing your opening 7.  IMHO, hitting Trinisphere and Ritual accomplish this.  If these two cards are restricted then clearly some would need to be done about CS, Welder seems like the obvious answer there.  Would I like to Drain go?  Yes, but that is purely selfish since I hate the card (I have not a single control player bone in my body).  Clearly you can agree that if so many of the hardline, travel to tournaments, high profile, successful Vintage players are unenthused about the format that an issue exists regarding the health of the metagame.  While some of the "old guard" are getting married, having kids, playing less, this is not an overnight phenomenon.  The majority of Team Shortbus have been in the working world since its origin a few years ago.  And yet we continue to put the results up in tournaments and we continue to innovate new decks.  That arguement doesn't fly in my opinion.

[Triple_S]

Shockwave:  if Trinisphere and Ritual get hit, I reason that Welder would be logical target to hit in Control Slaver to avoid it dominating the format.  True, some time could be given to let the dust settle and see where things stand, but it would seem to me that Welder (or another crucial element in CS) would need to go to prevent its domination of the format.  Time shall tell the tale.

[Vegeta2711]

Would you deny that Legacy provides this nuked world?

Um, yeah. Vintage would still have the most important things, the freaking moxen and restricted list.

You said you play Legacy, then you'd know the two formats aren't comparable at all.

[Hi-Val]

I think it's telling that in Highlander, the only deck that is broken is storm combo. When you remove the control and prison elements from the metagame, combo can jump into a role where it still functions almost identically to previous incarnations, while all other decks suffer. Take a look at Meandeath right now; the deck uses more restricted cards than any other deck in the format. If you're looking to nuke the format, even restricting Tendrils will not stop combo. It is an evil beast that will steal souls until the end of time, and the only thing that balances it are workshops and drains. This is all drawn from Highlander stuff though, so take this for what it is-- an extrapolation.

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, lots of stuff to review. First, the Legacy/Highlander comparisons.

I have played T1 Highlander, in two competitive events. I have a reasonable grasp of that format, and I can tell you that my proposal would not even come close to resembling that environment. I definitely enjoy the highlander format, but Vintage is a different beast. Look at a few of the cards you can still play as four ofs:
Force
Thirst/Scrying/gifts/etc
oath/Survival/mask
Wire/Stack/2sphere/crucible
and a TON more. Comparing that format to highlander is nonsensical at best.

But then there's the Legacy comparison. Ugh. How many decks in legacy can stand up to this:

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

As long as we have those cards, our format will look NOTHING like legacy. And that's not even counting the rest of the restricted list, or all the insane cards we can play as four-ofs that we don't even bother to use! Our format is so powerful, we can ignore cards that would destroy Legacy. These restrictions would not change that. The powerful archetypes would still be there, we'd just bring them down a notch, so that a few fringe decks can actually compete.

Would you deny that Legacy provides this nuked world?

I would deny it. My goal is not to "nuke" the format, but to slow it down, and remove some of the ridiculous turn one brokenness from the format. When half of one's matches come down to "Force of Will or no?" the format has a problem. Legacy is certainly a wonderful format, and I'd love to find an excuse to get involved with it, but as I said above, even with the changes I propose, Vintage will remain Vintage.

On ESG: this is a card that isn't exactly tearing up the scene right now, but it's powerful enough that I'm seriously worried about what it would do if everything else got weaker. It may be safe to leave ESG off the list for now, but since I don't seriously expect all these changes to be adopted right away, I decided it made more sense to put all the options on the table. I'd definitely like to see more discussion on this card.

On Drain being the linchpin of control: even with just one drain, I am confident in the ability of control decks to adapt to a new metagame, and to take on the underpowered combo decks. Remember, "workshop" decks won't be gone--just weaker. So the combo decks can't dedicate themselves to beating control, which should give control decks enough room to maneuver.

Can anyone out there tell me that they have evidence gathered from a metagame where such restrictions exist thats suggest such an environment is the direction in which we want to push this format? I didn't think so.

If it were up to me, we'd be taking this one step at a time, starting with Trinisphere, and dropping the axe again when there is ample reason to do so. We don't want a highlander format, so let's be careful with what we're suggesting in these threads.

Obviously this isn't based on evidence that I (or anyone else) has gathered. At the same time, though, I'm not asking you to blindly agree to all these changes. My goal here is to foster some debate, and try to come to an understanding of what major changes in the format would entail.

The DCI will obviously take a slow, measured approach, but that doesn't mean we should discuss only the immediate next step for them to take. We may not know where all the pieces will be after 11 restrictions, but I think if we work on it, we can figure out what the general layout is going to be.

Drain is at the heart of "balance" as we know it, canceling out the most broken plays, adding more decisions, prolonging the game, and adding interaction.

Not true at all. Force of Will does everything you described, but Drain fuels the most broken plays (will, etc), shortens the game (drain a spell=win; counter a spell=keep fighting), and removes interaction (the only spells control decks need removal for are welder and artifacts--because everything else comes down after UU is up). Sure, the current format without drain would be awful, but I am not calling for the restriction of Mana Drain in a vacuum. Control doesn't need Mana Drain to beat the kind of decks that you can build with these cards as 1-ofs. Removing drain certainly would make control weaker, but that's only fair to every other deck. A lower power level overall would only make the game more skill-intensive, because you have less ability to randomly win, through drain or whatever else.

Re: "stagnation". My issue is not with how much innovation is occuring. I have a problem with the power level of the format. Three new decks could come out in the next month, and I would still have a problem with the power of the format--in fact, if those decks could compete with what we have now, they'd probably make the power issue worse.

If you restrict 5-10 cards here or there, the decks and development are just going to continue to move forward (albeit being worse off). So what is the point of clamoring for the restriction/banning of XYZ? This is the definition of a slippery slope, and will just continue every quarter if you people had your way.

I would not be surprised if the new metagame established itself within weeks. I do not believe, however, that the new metagame would have the speed and power issues we're dealing with now. I have no problem with any deck or archetype being dominant or being overturned; the reason for my proposal is to lower the power bar of the entire format one notch. In fact, I'm genuinely glad to be calling for these changes, because they mean that we as a community have finally started pushing the format to its limits! Now, though, I feel that it is time to rein things in a little bit, because the limits we have reached are, in my mind, beyond the pale of what is truly acceptable for tournament magic.

Doug: with my aforementioned Highlander experience, I cannot see combo dominating in the way you expect, particularly with only two rituals, instead of the five that it would have if we left Cabal Rit alone. Meandeath simply cannot rely on death wish with only two rituals, just as TPS cannot rely on casting its expensive bombs off just lands and restricted acceleration. The fears about combo, though, are part of the reason why I think ESG needs to go, along with everything else.

Okay, I think that begins to cover everything that's been said. Let's keep this great discussion going!

edit: Oath. I'll cover this when I get a chance.
edit2: card cost issues, upsetting players. I'll deal with this too.

[JACO]

But then there's the Legacy comparison. Ugh. How many decks in legacy can stand up to this:

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

As long as we have those cards, our format will look NOTHING like legacy. And that's not even counting the rest of the restricted list, or all the insane cards we can play as four-ofs that we don't even bother to use! Our format is so powerful, we can ignore cards that would destroy Legacy.

Would you deny that Legacy provides this nuked world?

Um, yeah. Vintage would still have the most important things, the freaking moxen and restricted list.

You said you play Legacy, then you'd know the two formats aren't comparable at all.

If either of you guys have actually played or built decks and playtested in the new Legacy format any more than a few games here or there, you would see exactly what I am talking about. I play Legacy and build new decks all the time. In a 'nuked' Type 1 format, the Moxes, Lotus, all fast mana sources being restricted, etc. would provide the same level of acceleration as unrestricted Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Lion's Eye Diamond currently do in the new Legacy. While there's no Ancestral and Time Walk in the Legacy format, cards like Teferi's Response function the exact same way in a deck like Landstill. The power level of the cards (relative to the format), is still there. The decks just aren't as broken or good, which is exactly what you'd have with a 'scorched earth' reset of Vintage.

After the proposed 'nuking' of the Type 1 environment, Oath would immediately become the best deck, hands down. Mana Drain is borderline irrelevant to the deck's plan, so Oath would flat out dominate. After you restricted Oath of Druids (and maybe even Forbidden Orchard for good measure), you would basically have an environment almost identical to Legacy. If you don't play both formats you probably can't understand where I'm coming from, but it is true. Instead of trying to break Goblin Welder, Workshop, Bazaar, and Mana Drain, people just try to break Survival of the Fittest, Standstill, and a host of other cards that are the most powerful ones left.

The "but you can still play ONE of all these cards we're going to restrict" argument is absolutely nonsensical, to put it mildly. When you restrict Goblin Welder, Mana Drain, or Bazaar of Baghdad, you make it unplayable. Decks are built around those cards. They're not just haphazardly thrown into decks. No one's going to throw a single copy of Goblin Welder into a deck just because he's good. The best deckbuilders in Type 1 isolate different synergies between pairs or groups of cards, and then try to make them work together to be the most effective they can.

[Vegeta2711]

If either of you guys have actually played or built decks and playtested in the new Legacy format any more than a few games here or there, you would see exactly what I am talking about.

I'm Artowis on The Source and I do know what is played.

Here's the general best decks in Legacy.
Landstill
Survival of 3 kinds: R/G Beatdown, Angry Tradewind Survival and Welder Survival.
UG Madness
Some sort of WW, Angel Stompy is going into the main forum though.
And arguably High Tide (Solidarity) and 2 Land Belcher

Over in your neck of the woods I know different heavy creature decks like San Diego Zoo and W/R Jank are popular along with Void and such. On the EC, Burn is very popular along with ATS and Solidarity. In VA, Pox, Welder Survival and Enchatnress are highly regarded.

So yeah, you could say I've playtested more than a few games with various decks and know what's played. I also helped make the 1.5 version of Landstill, W/U control, Belcher and others.

Here's a few notes.
1. Combo completely sucks in Legacy as of current. Solidarity fizzles and isn't that fast (It's obviously better than other combo, but not a lot) and 2 Land Belcher is inconsistent as hell and loses to FoW.

2. Shitty aggro rules the day.

3. Survival decks are by far the best.

Here's what I expect would be heavily different by comparision to modded Vintage.

1. Combo would be heavily weakened, would it suck anywhere near as bad as Legacy's? Hell no. Rector still fetches Bargain, we still have Draw-7's, Tinker still fetches broken shit and Yawg's Will exists. Not to mention we keep all of our Tier 2 combo decks which beat the hell out of the Legacy ones. SqurrielCraft anyone? Dicemanx's old Eureka combo?

I can't even believe you'd put the accel of the two formats as equal. The fact is, Chrome Mox, Diamond, Petal and even LED doesn't help combo as much in this format. It is useful in Belcher at times, but in Legacy you have very little other combo conductive cards to abuse these mana producers with.

The normal moxen vs. other moxen is no contest. We actually have the means to make LED good. And ok we get 1 D. Rit instead of 4. We still get Mana Vault, Crypt, Academy and other possible accel.

Hell even some of the jankier combo like KCI and Salvagers could become viable. It's all better than the Legacy stuff to be perfectly honest (well 'cept maybe Salvagers).

2. Unless you expect Zoo, Sligh and Suicide to all become viable again. The level of aggro is still a lot higher than what we use in Legacy. Even if it's just because of FCG and Ravager Affinity.

3. Control stops worrying about having to lose turn 1/2 every game in exchange for going down to one Mana Drain. This means it can run slightly slower cards with better effects again to make up for it. Everyone thought after Drain was lost in Legacy, all control would die. This has been obviously proven false by Landstill, W/U, Tog and even BBS making steady T4 appearances.

4. Shit like the Rock isn't going to be viable (Which it is in Legacy), because we hit some powerful cards. That already makes me happy. Basically aggro-control is still stuff like Fish and maybe something along the lines of RDW.

5. Prison / Workshop decks are still somewhat viable because they can still run 1 Shop, 1 Tomb and all of the artifact acceleration. In Legacy it's almost pointless to build around such a thing w/o Workshop because there is no other supporting mana for it unless you use the resource draining moxes. And well all attempts at that have failed pretty miserably.

6. Survival might be good, but I doubt it'd be anywhere near as out and out good as in Legacy.

That's all from me.

[JACO]

If either of you guys have actually played or built decks and playtested in the new Legacy format any more than a few games here or there, you would see exactly what I am talking about.

I'm Artowis on The Source and I do know what is played...So yeah, you could say I've playtested more than a few games with various decks and know what's played.

I'm glad to see that we have at least a couple of 1.5 players here; ). Unfortunately, I disagree with the majority of what you said.

Here's a few notes.
1. Combo completely sucks in Legacy as of current. Solidarity fizzles and isn't that fast (It's obviously better than other combo, but not a lot) and 2 Land Belcher is inconsistent as hell and loses to FoW.

If you are playing a version of 2-Land Belcher with Goblin Welder in it, you definitely do not lose to Force of Will. I played Belcher a couple weeks in the large tournaments in San Diego, and literally the only matches I lost where when I killed myself with Spoils of the Vault. In the first tournament alone I was pitted against 3 control decks and beat them all, including UW Scepter (which I broke out of a very early Scepter lock; Oxidize/Naturalize), a URphidian deck which got out a Scepter as well, and also a URW control deck. All of them Force of Willed whatever my first big threat was, and I still defeated them all. While combo is no where near as good in Legacy as it is in THE CURRENT VINTAGE (i.e. before a bunch of restrictions). Once you restrict all the fast mana and Tendrils in Type 1, combo will suck. As Smmenen says, "that's bad."

I can't even believe you'd put the accel of the two formats as equal. The fact is, Chrome Mox, Diamond, Petal and even LED doesn't help combo as much in this format. It is useful in Belcher at times, but in Legacy you have very little other combo conductive cards to abuse these mana producers with.

The normal moxen vs. other moxen is no contest. We actually have the means to make LED good. And ok we get 1 D. Rit instead of 4. We still get Mana Vault, Crypt, Academy and other possible accel.

Hell even some of the jankier combo like KCI and Salvagers could become viable. It's all better than the Legacy stuff to be perfectly honest (well 'cept maybe Salvagers).

Obviously Type 1 decks will always be better than Legacy decks, because the 1 ofs you get to play with are better (Lotus, anyone?). I'm not disputing that. What my point is about the acceleration in Legacy is that the speed of the game is much slower than THE CURRENT VINTAGE, and that things like Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual (all unrestricted), DO tend to speed up Legacy a bit, so it's not nearly as slow as Type 2. This is what Type 1 would become if you start resricting shit like Mishra's Workshop, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, every fast mana source, etc.

5. Prison / Workshop decks are still somewhat viable because they can still run 1 Shop, 1 Tomb and all of the artifact acceleration. In Legacy it's almost pointless to build around such a thing w/o Workshop because there is no other supporting mana for it unless you use the resource draining moxes. And well all attempts at that have failed pretty miserably.

Prison decks would suck balls. Take a look at Legacy; you're allowed to run 4 City of Traitors, 4 Ancient Tombs, 4 Mox Diamonds, and 4 Chrome Moxes. Even if you started playing 1 Workshop, 1 Ancient Tomb, 4 City of Traitors, and every fast mana accelerant in Type 1, it would still suck balls. You're kidding yourself and others if you think otherwise.

2. Unless you expect Zoo, Sligh and Suicide to all become viable again. The level of aggro is still a lot higher than what we use in Legacy. Even if it's just because of FCG and Ravager Affinity.

3. Control stops worrying about having to lose turn 1/2 every game in exchange for going down to one Mana Drain. This means it can run slightly slower cards with better effects again to make up for it. Everyone thought after Drain was lost in Legacy, all control would die. This has been obviously proven false by Landstill, W/U, Tog and even BBS making steady T4 appearances.

What I expect, is that the format would become drastically different (i.e. weak), and it would look a lot like Legacy. The best blue-based control decks woud automatically become Landstill, Tog, Gro variants, UW Scepter-Chant, Fish variants, and URPhidian. Wow, how similar to Legacy!

But unfortunately, probably none of these decks would be able to hang with an unmolested Rector Trix deck. No Dark Ritual? So what? Just play all the other one-of mana accelerants. Then we'd have to restrict Academy Rector.

Once everyone cried out for the restriction of Oath and Forbidden Orchard in your post apocalyptic scenario, Food Chain would also be ridiculously good compared to everything else, especially if it started using AEther Vial. Then everybody would cry to restrict Goblin Recruiter, Goblin Lackey, and AEther Vial.


Wrapping things up, in a post apocalyptic scenario with everything above restricted, let's take a look at the NEXT round of restrictions that everyone would immediately be clamoring for in the next 3-6 months afterwards:
Oath of Druids
Academy Rector
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Recruiter
AEther Vial
Tendrils of Agony

So basically, in your post apocalyptic world, your metagame would boil down to this after 6 months:
Aggro: Zoo/hate/RG Tempo decks, Ravager Affinity (without AEther Vial, but with Skullclamp), RUG Madness
Control: Landstill, Tog, UW Scepter-Chant, URPhidian, ATS-variants
Aggro Control: BG Void, Gro Variants, UG Madness, UR Fish, Survival Utility
Combo: Old-style Academy, FEB/Vengeur Masque Variants

Then a few months after that, we would undoubtedly see calls for the restriction of Survival, because it's just so good, in a format that sucks.

Thanks guys, that's REAL exciting! A format that weak and slow seems an awful lot like Legacy. Here's another radical restriction policy: why don't we just turn back the clock and ban everything from Onslaught block and newer? Maybe that would solve everyone's problems, and take us back to a lower power level where all the decks are mediocre at best.

I'll leave you all with a nice quote from Justin Walters aka the Sauce, whose statements I wish to echo:

I love Type 1. It's the most ruthless format in the game. I love that if I blink for even a second, if I make just one mistake, the game can be over. I love that our decks are among the most complex in the history of the game, and that you can play any given matchup hundreds of times and still find yourself in new and unprecedented situations. I love that we have a format that, when the abomination that is Meandeck Tendrils was unleashed on it, more or less shrugged and said, "Yeah, I can handle that." I love that our format is comprised of decks that smash themselves to pieces against each other in the first two turns, and that the rest of the game is a scramble to see who can scrounge up their remaining resources the fastest and take first advantage of the ensuing ruin.

[Matt]

Wow, I've never seen "slippery slope" taken to such extremes. If it weren't so unreadable to non-Magic players I'd print it out and send it to someone writing a textbook on logic.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm actually going to ignore some of the Legacy discussion because it's really not relevant.

This is what Type 1 would become if you start resricting shit

But it's NOT and you know it. Any format that automatically allows the SoLoMoxenCrypt + the other unrestricted mana will still be far faster than any format w/o them. Yes obviously Vintage would be a bit slower than where it is now. It's like pointing out that Type 0 is faster than Type 1 because it allows unrestricted everything. But you don't think Type 1 is too slow compared to Type 0 right?

Thanks guys, that's REAL exciting! A format that weak and slow seems an awful lot like Legacy. Here's another radical restriction policy: why don't we just turn back the clock and ban everything from Onslaught block and newer? Maybe that would solve everyone's problems, and take us back to a lower power level where all the decks are mediocre at best.

The problem with a statement like that is it goes the exact opposite way.

Thanks guys, that's REAL exciting! A format that's broken and incredibly fast seems an awful lot like Type 0. Here's another radical restriction policy: why don't we just unrestrict Gush, Desire and Burning Wish since we want such a broken format? Maybe that would solve everyone's problems, and take us back to a power level where all the decks are coin-flips at best.

Slippery Slopes Suck.

That's the thing I never got really, everyone LOVES to do broken things, but HATES the idea that 'omg T1 is a coinflip format' when in reality after a certain amount of time it becomes exactly that! If we REALLY wanted broken things.
1. Gush never would've been touched.
2. Desire would've been legal for the minimum 3 month period.
3. Smmenen wouldn't of gone on his 'get LED and B. Wish gone' crusade.

We try to keep a horribly broken format 'fair' and that term is always debateable. That's why we always have these problems, because every notch you go up on the power level, you ailenate some while others are happier. That's the thing, I don't think your opinion is neccessarily wrong.

I just think it's so hard to have either side prove:
A.  How imporant dominance or power level is
B. What the base amount of interaction the format should always have at minimum and what is preferred
C. And most importantly, what more people will enjoy

Hence why there is such dispute amongst people to fix a 'problem'. Previously all the possible problems have been blantantly obvious, now it's much more subtle and personal with people. This is a possible solution and I support any well thought out solution. I'm honestly not even sure if I'd like the whole format 'nuked', but it seems reasonable.

But unfortunately, probably none of these decks would be able to hang with an unmolested Rector Trix deck. No Dark Ritual? So what? Just play all the other one-of mana accelerants. Then we'd have to restrict Academy Rector.

Once everyone cried out for the restriction of Oath and Forbidden Orchard in your post apocalyptic scenario, Food Chain would also be ridiculously good compared to everything else, especially if it started using AEther Vial. Then everybody would cry to restrict Goblin Recruiter, Goblin Lackey, and AEther Vial.

Wrapping things up, in a post apocalyptic scenario with everything above restricted, let's take a look at the NEXT round of restrictions that everyone would immediately be clamoring for in the next 3-6 months afterwards:
Oath of Druids
Academy Rector
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Recruiter
AEther Vial
Tendrils of Agony

I'm not going to guess two stops forward. And the fact is, I don't really give a shit if people complain about Academy Rector. People did that before and nothing got hit, I'd assume the same again.

The problem with all the things you've said about the change is you seem to automatically go down the slippery slope. You really seem to overstate everything that may possibly become negative. Absolutely nothing will look good when you take something to such an extreme. What happens if after all the stuff on Orlove's list got hit and we went back to doing what we've always been doing? Breaking stuff. Unless we automatically assume that every T1 deckbuilder can't make do with the entire format with a few more restrictions...

That's my only real problem with your line of thought so far. Not that everything would be made weaker, that's a given. But that overbearing obvious tone that makes it sound like we would never ever make a deck past a certain power level ever again. That given a year, or even a few months of work, that the format would never be able to replicate any sort of 'Vintage' feel.

That is why this restriction concept has been called a reset. Because eventually we'd hit this state once again. Look at extended as a historical example. Nearly every season stuff gets banned and yet by next season we see decks just as good or more powerful than previous decks.

I'm guessing newer and better decks would be made. Just like they always have.

[Anusien]

I'm sorry, an aside needs to be made, and hopefully the last of its kind:

Jaco: Please stop making T1.5 players look bad.  Whether or not 2land Belcher rolls over to Force of Will (and it does.  BBS for example, owns Belcher, especially when you side Chalices in from the board) is irrelevant because combo sucks.  Excuse the self-linkage, but I've done the math on Belcher..  To go off on Turn 2 it's a coin flip with a 20% Duress rate and a 23% Mulligan rate.  Compare that to T1 Belcher, which is something more like a 50% turn 1 win rate.  Orlove is right: Legacy simply can't compare to 5 Moxen, 1 Black Lotus, 1 Sol Ring, 1 Crypt, YAWGMOTH'S FREAKING WILL, Time Walk (recursion, thanks SEX.dec), Ancestral Recall.  You ever try any of the Legacy meandeck ports?  That alone shows you the differences.  I know of 1 successful Legacy non-combo deck that uses any acceleration, and that's to avoid Winter Orb (Matt's Gro).  Legacy prison sucks because of the lack of Moxen and Lotus, more than anything else.  Your ability to drop turn 1 3Sphere drops dramatically without Moxen and Crypts, disregarding shops.  Plus, we'd still have Trinisphere which Vintage wouldn't.  Really, just compare manabases.  Vintage will always be broken, Legacy will probably not be.  That's the difference.  While Legacy is fun to play, there is serious merit in trying to create a stable Vintage.  Stable Vintage != Legacy, and if you wish to continue this further, please take it to PMs or find me on IRC.  There's no point in cluttering up a thread with ideas no one agrees with.

I have to think that I'm in favor of your post Orlove, but I'm not sure what the format would look like.  Oath obviously would be strong, but maybe not broken because it's arguably not broken now.  It would be fun, but it's a serious question of what would happen to certain archetypes.  Combo would be smoked pretty badly - Meandeck Tendrils would die, and good riddance, and so would Belcher, but I'm not sure what the viable combo would be.  For some reason, I laugh at the phrase, "Mystical Tutor for Mana Drain is a strong play".  I think with so many powerful cards on the restricted list, you'd have decks that were slightly less focused.  Like the way Slaver uses Tinker as a backup plan, you might have something like The Roscoe (the transmute deck) running Welder as a backup plan.  I think it's a good idea, although I kinda like the format the way it is too.  I think you're right to say that if the restrictions only go halfway, it would suck.  Any serious ideas to what the format would be like?

[Matt]

Oath and Rector are 'fair' because there's so many ways to hate them (see also: Dragon). If Oath and Rector become top decks, we'd see StP being good against all three archetypes - control, combo, and of course aggro. Wouldn't that be fun?

[Pern]

why don't we just unrestrict Gush, Desire and Burning Wish since we want such a broken format?

Actually an interesting idea.
Some of the decks that were way too powerful in the day
might be a balancing force now.

[Jacob Orlove]

why don't we just unrestrict Gush, Desire and Burning Wish since we want such a broken format?

Actually an interesting idea.
Some of the decks that were way too powerful in the day
might be a balancing force now.

I don't have time to get into all the issues I mentioned above, but I do want to respond to this really quickly. All those cards were powerful enough to restrict, we all agree. However, they're on par with the power level of the current format (except desire, which is just stupid). That means that the power level of the current format across the board is restriction-level good.

I'll repeat: every single top deck in the format is as powerful as decks we've neutered with restrictions in the past. Clearly, this is not a problem we can solve with just one or two changes to the B/R list. We need to take every top tier deck down a notch.

[virtual]

I'm going to try to post again here and attempt to keep it clearly enough on topic this time.

I don't believe nuking the format is the solution.  I believe that underneath the unreset in the format, are a few key cards that are not letting the meta-game adapt appropriately.  A card or few cards are strangling the options of the meta.  

Take out those cards, and people will be able to play the proper archetype foils, etc again.  Type 1 is going to be fast, no matter if we like it or not.  Single cards eliminating entire Archetypes from the meta (or nearly all Archetypes from the meta) though are what upset the balance, and make one Archetype dominant.  It might not be obvious, but I think that looking beyond the obvious for the problem, the problem becomes obvious.

-Virtual

[Triple_S]

It seems to me the idea is to hit each of the major archtypes equally to bring the power level down a notch or so.  Then to look at what the dominant decks would be after the initial wave of restrictions and hit problematic cards in the new meta.  This has been done previously in 1.x with a great deal of success.

[rvs]

It seems to me the idea is to hit each of the major archtypes equally to bring the power level down a notch or so.  Then to look at what the dominant decks would be after the initial wave of restrictions and hit problematic cards in the new meta.  This has been done previously in 1.x with a great deal of success.

So... they should hit Trinisphere, Dark Ritual, Goblin Welder and Intuition. And I'm sure everybody could live with that, right?

[Smmenen]

I would be totally unsatisfied if either Ritual or Trinisphere is restricted but Mana Drain is not becuase Drain would dominate.

[Triple_S]

That is a series of restrictions I can get behind.