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Author Topic: MonoBlackControlish  (Read 1527 times)
Discozombie
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« on: February 19, 2005, 09:37:51 pm »

I have always been a monoblack player and the recent use of Night of Soul's Betrayal has reminded me of a another forgotten little black enchantment.  Engineered Plague.  It does almost the exact same thing only for cheaper.  

So I decided to modify my old Newicide Black deck and make it a little bit more of a control deck.  So check it out.  Short explanations to follow...



//NAME: Nuicide Black
        4 Plaguebearer
        4 Withered Wretch
        4 Kiku, Night's Flower
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        4 Null Rod
        4 Duress
        4 Coffin Purge
        4 Engineered Plague
        4 Chains of Mephistopheles
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Stripmine
        4 Wasteland
        17 Swamp

SB:  4 Sphere of Resistance/trinisphere
SB:  3 Masticore
SB:  4 Powder Keg
SB:  4 Cranial Extraction

Plaguebearer: I just love the shooter.  He can just do so many great things.  Like take out man lands, machine gun down 0 cc critters, kill WELDERS...

Withered Wretch: I hear anti graveyard is tech

Kiku, Night's Flower: if she gets active she can shoot down almost any creatue in the game.

Demonic Consultation-with all the 4 ofs, this is awesome

Null Rod-best friend of budget decks.  

Duress-I hear that proactive is the tech Smile

Coffin Purge-reuseable duress for the graveyard.

Engineered Plague-name goblin, merfolk, spirit, soldier, etc.  just too, too good

Chains of Mephistopheles-the hymn that keeps on working

SB:  4 Sphere of Resistance/trinisphere-lets me go the psuedo void route

SB:  3 Masticore-when beef is needed

SB:  4 Powder Keg-anti aggro and other...

SB:  4 Cranial Extraction-anti combo

well there it is.  Ape what do you think?

The deck is obviusly focused towards antigraveyard and anti-welder.  Those are the main decks in the format.  Active Kiku helps against Oath, so does early duress.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2005, 10:56:57 pm »

Quote from: Discozombie
 Active Kiku helps against Oath.

Considering that Akroma, Spirit of the Night, AND Pristine Angel all have protection from black, would you mind explaining just how Kiku is supposed to help, exactly?
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Mouth for War
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2005, 01:24:06 am »

Quote
4 Kiku, Night's Flower


     Junk on so many levels.

1)  FAR too mana-intensive - four mana to destroy a single creature is horribly slow.  By the time you could actually use the ability, the game's pretty much decided.

2)  As Jacob Orlove already pointed out, the "big" creatures in Oath will thumb their noses at Kiku, having protection from black.  About the only maindeck Oath creature that Kiku would be useful against would be Colossus.

3)  Stax and Welder will simply outrace you due to mana acceleration and the differences in activation abilities.

4)  Decks like Meandeck Tendrils don't run creatures, so Kiku's 1/1 for BB isn't cost effective when your win condition is beatdown (eight 1/1's and four 2/2's aren't going to win the race in Type I).

5)  Legendary status - even if Kiku could be considered a decent card, only being able to have one out at a time when your win condition is beatdown is a bad drawback.


     Almost anything else would be better in Kiku's place - Nantuko Shade comes to mind first.

     I understand that you're trying to incorporate creature control into your deck, but black has better options (Diabolic Edict) than Kiku.



Quote
4 Plaguebearer


     I understand your fascination with this guy- I'm sweet on him myself - but not for Type I tournament play.   He's not going to help you against more than a couple of different decks.

- Oath - getting rid of Orchard spirits wouldn't matter, because Bearer still counts, and you'll never have the mana available to get rid of Oath's real threats (again, most of which are pro-black anyway).

- Stax/etc. - popping Welder is a nice effect, but you can do that with Edicts, too.

- Tendrils - nothing

- Goblins - nothing, as he'll be 'bolted before he's useful.  

- Fish - jackpot, if he resolves and survives past Lavamancer and Fire/Ice, but Fish can't exactly be viewed as a real threat to win tournaments nowadays.





Quote
4 Coffin Purge


     Planar Void might be better...  you've already got the Wretch for cards that make it to the graveyard before Void gets cast.



Quote
Engineered Plague-name goblin, merfolk, spirit, soldier, etc. just too, too good


     More like too, too, slow, DZ.  You're too concerned with creatures, and the piddly ones at that (other than the Welder, there isn't much out there at the top of Type I right now that will ever be affected by the Plague).  At best (at best) this is a sideboard card if you plan on playing in a heavy budget meta.  Trust me on this - I've actually tried this card in Type I - way too slow, way too limited in scope.

     For an investment of 3 mana, you could have a Negator out, putting your opponent on a 4-turn clock.  Plague is too dependent on your opponent.



Quote
Chains of Mephistopheles-the hymn that keeps on working


     I don't have any personal experience with them, but I have a friend who has played Nether Void in Type I tournaments, and he maindecked them when Gro was in its prime.  Even with the draw inherent in that archetype, he said that he still wished more often than not that the Chains would've been creature control - that said, Gro's creatures were better targets than somebody playing Meandeck Tendrils...  

     You may want to consider these as sideboard options only.


     Speaking of which...


Quote
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance/trinisphere-lets me go the psuedo void route


     C'mon, man...  Didn't you ever watch The Karate Kid...?  "So-so" (or "pseudo) = "squish, just like grape."

     Going "pseudo" in Type I is like saying "I haven't got a clear idea of what this deck should do, and I'm going to try to imitate the other decks out there, even though I don't have an entire deck to support these pieces..."

     You have no mana acceleration that wouldn't be affected by your own Spheres (in effect, slowing you down more than your opponents), making this a terrible choice.



Quote
SB: 3 Masticore


     Again with the weenie hate?  You've got too many answers to something that isn't a real problem in Type I today...


Quote
The deck is obviusly focused towards antigraveyard and anti-welder. Those are the main decks in the format. Active Kiku helps against Oath, so does early duress.



     Not to beat a dead horse, but this deck's only hope against Oath is an early Duress that doesn't get forced.  Kiku blows.  If the Oath comes into play, you die with this deck.

     Graveyard recursion is Stax and Dragon...there are other decks in this format that don't rely on recursion (Oath, Tendrils, Mono-U, U/G Madness, Belcher to name a few).  Did you mean those are the main decks in your metagame?


     Have you ever read TMD's Legend Suicide primer?  If you're going mono-black, that might be a good place to start.
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[supa_t(im)]
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2005, 03:42:05 am »

I don't think that your deck does enough against the top decks of today.

Mouth of War did a good job of explaining why that is.

Quote
4 Plaguebearer

Not liking this guy.  It costs 3 (!!) to kill a welder. Unless you waste a ritual on him, welder will already have done something nasty to you.  He's just not that effective.  Maybe try plague spitter.  He kills welders and does your opponent damage at the same time.  Get him out turn 1 and turn 2 he already starts killing welders.
Quote
4 Withered Wretch

I like this guy.  SO very useful in todays meta.  Also helps with taking out anything you may have dumped in the grave through chains.
Quote
4 Kiku, Night's Flower

The reasons not to use this card have already been stated.
Quote
4 Null Rod

Not quite as good as they used to be, but what else does sui have?  I don't think you need 4 though since multiples suck, a lot.  I would go down to three.
Quote
4 Coffin Purge
4 Engineered Plague

These two seem too narrow for this deck.  You already have wretch MD to take out grave stuff, and you should have plague spitter MD to take out weenies (because he does a much better job of it and is still a threat).
Quote
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

I would keep this card.  Coupled with wretch it's quite effective.  With the amount of draw going on currently (tfk, brainstorm, AK, ancestral) I think its too good to pass up.  Just be sure to keep welder off the table.  3 will probably work though.
Quote
4 Dark Ritual
1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

Maybe add some mishras factories for added pressure.  They are wasteable, but after some changes it might not matter.

Quote
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance/trinisphere

This is what other decks use against you.  Not something you want to side in.
Quote
SB: 3 Masticore

You should have enough creature control MD.  Creatures aren't that popular in t1 so you really shouldn't have to over prepare for them (unless your meta is full of FCG and scrub aggro).
Quote
SB: 4 Powder Keg

This could be good to side in against oath and other decks.  The problem I see is that null rod shuts it off and null rod is one of your main hate cards.
Quote
SB: 4 Cranial Extraction

Why 4? is my question.  Its decent against some decks, but you probably only need 2 if you are gonna use it.

Thats 14 cards I suggest you take out.  Plague, Purge, 1 rod, Kiku, 1 chains.  To replace them I suggest you use some of the old favorites, Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Will.  Also 2-3 CoW would be nice here.  It allows you to reuse your wastes and lets you retrieve lost factories.  Then some stronger beats, phyrexian war beast comes to mind, he beats for a decent amount, has a sturdy body, and costs 3.  Finally I think you should add some diabolic edicts since it gets rid of so many pesky things.

Proposed decklist:

//Mana
10 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishras Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

// BEATS
4 Phyrexian Warbeast
4 Withered Wretch
4 Plague Spitter

// Disrupt
3 Null Rod
4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Chains of Mephistopheles

// Broken
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
Engineered Plague (good against aggro as you mentioned)
Chalic of the Void (good against combo)
Coffin Purge (maybe if you need more grave hate)
Phyrexian Negator (good againt control)
Hymn to Tourach (good against combo and control)
Cabal Therapy (if you need more spot discard, also could be good MD depending on metagame)
etc.

Good Luck!!
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Mouth for War
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2005, 09:39:43 am »

From [Supa_T(im)] :

Quote

4 Chains of Mephistopheles  

I would keep this card. Coupled with wretch it's quite effective. With the amount of draw going on currently (tfk, brainstorm, AK, ancestral) I think its too good to pass up. Just be sure to keep welder off the table. 3 will probably work though.


     Lot of draw out there right now, which was one of the reasons why I didn't naysay this card completely.  I'm assuming that some decks currently en vogue would view it as a must-counter /disenchant effect target.  I know Fish dislikes it, since my buddy's Void deck owns my Fish build (not surprising).



Quote

SB: 4 Powder Keg  

This could be good to side in against oath and other decks. The problem I see is that null rod shuts it off and null rod is one of your main hate cards.


     I disagree on Keg's usefulness against Oath.  Keg won't stop Oath itself (creatures and artifacts only), and Null Rod is quicker Mox-hate.  I won't disagree on Keg's usefulness, though.  Against scrub aggro like Fish, FCG, Sligh, etc., or even against Welder variants (provided you have no other artifacts in your graveyard).
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[supa_t(im)]
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2005, 10:45:04 am »

@Mouth for War
I know you didn't say chains was bad or anything, but you said that it may be a sideboard card.  I think that chains is one of the cards that must be MD for Neo-sui to stand a chance.  It can't compete with the draw engines of today so it makes up for it with chains.  I can see how chains would be relatively useless against GAT because it actually feeds the tog, and they were relatively small draws (cantrips to feed Dryad).  But now that Slaver and other drain based decks are using intiution + AK, thats a lot of cards to mill/discard.  This coupled with wretch means things get ugly.  I'm sure you know its a good card, but I was just saying I think its a MD card.

I'm actually not incredibly fond of keg, and you're right, its probably too slow to play against Oath.  It may be superfluous because of plague spitter because he tends to clean up aggro by himself.
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