[Unpowered Casual] Need Help with Sneak Attack

[Mouth for War]

EDIT (2-22-05):  This is a funsy deck.  I'm not really looking to scrap the deck and build RecSur (in which Sneak Attack would be an afterthought).  I'm not looking to dismantle the entire deck save 4 or 5 cards - I'm looking to tweak it - change it a bit here, change it a bit there, perhaps exchange a color for a new one...    Thanks.  end edit

Edit #2 (also 2-22-05):  Although I didn't put it in the subject heading, keep in mind that this deck tends to see more multiplayer action than 1-on-1 competition, so it needs to be able to finish multiple opponents off within a couple of turns of landing the Sneaks.  end edit #2





This used to be one of only two decks I had in non-standard sleeves, until my gaming group started saying, "Ooh, black sleeves - It's Sneak Attack - Kill him!" and I never got past turn two...  

     I used to have Pandemonium in the deck, but the second I played it, the rest of the table targeted me, and I was dead.   (recurring theme?)


Anywho, I'm looking for a way to possibly speed this deck up, as in, better ways to ensure that I have that Sneak Attack since, without Sneak Attack and Elvish Piper, this deck is S...L...O...W...

     I'm open to a color change only if the majority of the selected creatures in the new color have synergy with Sneak Attack, as once I get it out, the game is almost always over for the rest of the table.  

Here it is :

Sneak Attack or Green / Red Instant Death

Creatures (26)
2 Llanowar Elves (probably shouldn't be in there, since they aren't Sneak targets, but I need to get that enchantment out as soon as possible in order to have a chance - willing to lose them to speed search)
2 Elvish Piper (to drop creatures permanently into play - slow, though)

1 Genesis (awesome synergy with Sneak Attack, Greater Good, and the other creatures)

4 Weatherseed Treefolk (Sneak Attack's EOT effect doesn't phase him...)
4 Shivan Phoenix (ditto, and he's a flyer to boot)
2 Crater Hellion (for those pesky weenie hordes - saves my hide virtually every time I drop one)

4 Penumbra Wurm (again, synergy with Sneak Attack's EOT effect)
2 Thorn Elemental

2 Symbiotic Wurm (Sneak Attack's EOT effect gives me a small army)
3 Avatar of Might (can cold-cast with ACCost against weenie hordes also)


Spells (10)
4 Sneak Attack
2 Greater Good (nothing like drawing more fatty threats)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Moment's Peace (again, more than willing to lose these if there's a way to speed up the deck - these were put in there simply to keep me alive long enough to be able to find and use the Sneak)

Land (24)
12 forest
12 mountain


     I've thought about splashing white for Sterling Groves, but the mana base is iffy as is, let alone adding a third color.  I have duals and a few fetches, Gemstone Mines, etc., so I can probably get by with a three color monstrosity...

     There's also black for Tutors, but neither black nor white have creatures (that I've thought of, anyway) that have synergy on par with green's with the Sneak Attack.

     Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Keep in mind that my finances are very limited at this time (thanks, NAFTA), so anything over $10 is probably out of the question for a funsy deck (ie: no Serra Avatar, Power, Bazaar-type stuff).

     Thanks, folks !

[AceOfJacks]

Let as assume:

1- You can get the dual lands you desire for this deck. (Can be substituted with pain lands, but then you'll have to rely on Baloths and Phantom Nishobas more, and also rofellos will be useless in the deck)
2- You can acquire Survival of the Fittest. (A core for the version of the deck I'm going to post.)
3- You can acquire Birds of Paradise. (can be substituted with other thigns, but the ability to get mana is REALLY useful in this deck)

Now that that's out of the way ... let's have some fun!

No power.  As far as the overly expensive part goes ... heh ... I'm not too sure about that part.

//NAME: I went Overboard
// green
        1 Greater Good
        4 Survival of the Fittest
// red
        3 Sneak Attack
// mana creatures
        3 Quirion Ranger
        1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
        1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
        4 Birds of Paradise
// utility creatures
        1 Wall of Roots
        1 Joiner Adept
        1 Genesis
        1 Anger
        4 Doomed Necromancer
        3 Academy Rector
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        2 Eternal Witness
        1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
// beatstick creatures
        1 Ravenous Baloth
        1 Flametongue Kavu
        1 Reya Dawnbringer
        1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
        1 Phantom Nishoba
        1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
        1 Yosei, the Morning Star
// gold
        1 Aura Shards
// artifact
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
// land
        1 Phyrexian Tower
        3 Wooded Foothills
        2 Badlands
        2 Plateau
        4 Bayou
        4 Savannah
        4 Taiga

Yeah this deck is expensive ... I shouldn't even have posted it, but I thought it would be something that you can see as a "goal" ... a deck to work towards.

I could have actually made the deck a little better ... but I tried to not TOOOO overboard with some of the cards.

There are cards can be substituted:
2 Symbiotic Wurm
4 Shivan Phoenix
2 Thorn Elemental

But there are creature that need to be in the deck:
Phantom Nishoba
Ravenous Baloth
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Eternal Witness
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
... anyway ... It's a start ... I'll follow up on this later.

[Mouth for War]

Let as assume:

1- You can get the dual lands you desire for this deck. (Can be substituted with pain lands, but then you'll have to rely on Baloths and Phantom Nishobas more, and also rofellos will be useless in the deck)

     Duals aren't a problem.  I went out of my way during Revised to acquire as many of them as possible, and have traded away only one the entire time I've played Magic (and I've regretted that trade ever since).  I'd just have to decide which other deck (have over a hundred decks, mostly funsy) to rip them out of...

2- You can acquire Survival of the Fittest. (A core for the version of the deck I'm going to post.)

     I've got two, but probably won't be able to get more anytime soon.  Not sure I like them much in this build, even though I see the potential with Squee and the other lesser creatures digging out the beatsticks.  

     Speaking of creatures, I'm not overly enthusiastic about a few of the creature choices in this build.  Perhaps you can explain them :

// mana creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Birds of Paradise
// utility creatures
1 Wall of Roots
1 Joiner Adept

-    I fail to see what use the Quirions would be in this deck.  What am I missing?

-    Azusa...  Why not simply drop a turn one Exploration?

-    Rofellos...  Do you ever actually find yourself needing that much green mana?  I see how they might help cold-cast a few of the beats (in conjunction with the Birds), but you're asking a lot to be able to have Birds and Rofellos remain on the board in a multi-player (or halfway-competitive 1-on-1) game...

-    Wall of Roots......  C'mon, man.....  You'll have to do some serious convincing to make me think any wall belongs in a Sneak Attack build, let alone a vanilla mana-producer...  This seems to me to be a worse choice than even Moment's Peace.

-    Joiner Adept...  Theme time...  4 color deck, Mana-birds, Adept - How often do you find yourself mana-hosed with this deck?

1 Anger

     Sneak Attack already gives your drops haste...  Do you really find Anger to have an important enough effect to include him in the build?  Rofellos and the Birds are the only creatures (okay, add Necromancers) that would benefit from his presence...  Seems a little limited in scope?

4 Doomed Necromancer

     Would you rather draw the Necromancer, or another beat?  Adding another color (black) for 5 slots doesn't seem efficient (although I flat out drool over the prospect of Sneaking a Kokusho).

3 Academy Rector

     Rector (damned near killed her) was one of the possibilities I'd debated with a G/R/W build...  Only problem remains how to get the thing into the graveyard/rfg from play...

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

     Do you find 1 Squee to be enough?  His synergy with Survival should probably be enough to deserve at least one more slot...  Better to pull out 2 beats through Survival than 1, especially if you're playing multi-player, or if your opponent has blockers / attackers...  I do realize that the other weenies can also serve as Survival fodder, but Squee's ability is too good to pass up, I would think...

1 Reya Dawnbringer

     Love the potential, but her 6WWW CC looks a bit difficult to cold cast, leaving the only method of having her in play enough to make a difference by utilizing the Necromancers...

     I can see a lot of interaction between the various pieces / creatures in this build, and it does look like a lot of fun, but it seems a bit more problematic - almost combo-dependent, due to the lack of redundancy.

     What kinds of decks do you have problems with?  If the Survival gets countered/disenchanted, does the deck stand a shot?


     Man, I'd forgotten all about Kokusho...

[ctthespian]

     Speaking of creatures, I'm not overly enthusiastic about a few of the creature choices in this build.  Perhaps you can explain them :

// mana creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Birds of Paradise
// utility creatures
1 Wall of Roots
1 Joiner Adept

-    I fail to see what use the Quirions would be in this deck.  What am I missing?

-    Azusa...  Why not simply drop a turn one Exploration?

-    Rofellos...  Do you ever actually find yourself needing that much green mana?  I see how they might help cold-cast a few of the beats (in conjunction with the Birds), but you're asking a lot to be able to have Birds and Rofellos remain on the board in a multi-player (or halfway-competitive 1-on-1) game...

-    Wall of Roots......  C'mon, man.....  You'll have to do some serious convincing to make me think any wall belongs in a Sneak Attack build, let alone a vanilla mana-producer...  This seems to me to be a worse choice than even Moment's Peace.

-    Joiner Adept...  Theme time...  4 color deck, Mana-birds, Adept - How often do you find yourself mana-hosed with this deck?

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

     Do you find 1 Squee to be enough?  His synergy with Survival should probably be enough to deserve at least one more slot...  Better to pull out 2 beats through Survival than 1, especially if you're playing multi-player, or if your opponent has blockers / attackers...  I do realize that the other weenies can also serve as Survival fodder, but Squee's ability is too good to pass up, I would think...

Quirions:  There an old throw in from the original survival monster TNT.  They can untap your birds by bouncing a forest allowing for one more G/R for Survival or Sneak.

Azusa:  With survival you run 5 Azusas.  As opposed to wasting slots on exploration.

Rofellos/Wall of Roots:  Survivals every turn without using onboard mana.  Enough said.

Joiner:  Assuming is there to mana smooth the deck you mentioned at other times that you thought the black was unwieldy.


Another option is the new card Blazing Shoal.  If you have the higher casting cost 10's like the Red Myojin or Tyrant Dragon from scourge it's an easy extra 10 damage.  Also if you go this route.  Nicol Bolas is cool as he can sneak to remove a hand or he can pitch to the Shoal for 8 dmg.

-Keith

[AceOfJacks]

[regarding Survival]
     I've got two, but probably won't be able to get more anytime soon.  Not sure I like them much in this build, even though I see the potential with Squee and the other lesser creatures digging out the beatsticks.  

Survival has multiple purposes.  It gets ANY creature you need.  You need mana?  Survival for a mana creature.  You need drop drop some lands?  Survival for Azusa.  You need to gain life?   Survival for a Baloth or Phantom Nishoba.  You need an enchantment?  Survival for a Rector and find a way to kill it. (I'll get into that later)

-    I fail to see what use the Quirions would be in this deck.  What am I missing?

-    Azusa...  Why not simply drop a turn one Exploration?

-    Rofellos...  Do you ever actually find yourself needing that much green mana?  I see how they might help cold-cast a few of the beats (in conjunction with the Birds), but you're asking a lot to be able to have Birds and Rofellos remain on the board in a multi-player (or halfway-competitive 1-on-1) game...

-    Wall of Roots......  C'mon, man.....  You'll have to do some serious convincing to make me think any wall belongs in a Sneak Attack build, let alone a vanilla mana-producer...  This seems to me to be a worse choice than even Moment's Peace.

-    Joiner Adept...  Theme time...  4 color deck, Mana-birds, Adept - How often do you find yourself mana-hosed with this deck?

Azusa is better than 20 Explorations.  It's a Creature, which means it can be searched by way of Survival.  And also, consider this scenario:

I have a Birds, a Rofellos, 2 Quirion Rangers, and 3 Forest Duals in play.  I tap Rofellos for 3, drop Azusa.  Tap dual, bounce to Ranger, untap Rofellos.  Play land, tap Rofellos, tap any dual that i need the mana from, bounce it to the second ranger, untap rofellos, play the land AGAIN via Azusa.  Tap that dual, now I have 9 mana in my mana pool.  6 of which is green, and the rest is the colors I needed from the duals.  Now I can hardcast that Reya, or Cast Survival, Cast Sneak and still survival for a Phantom Nishoba, sneak it into play, and gain 7 life.
I play Survival/ Recurring Nightmare myself, and I love to find combos with Survival.  I know that Azusa/Ranger/Rofellos works, because I've kicked many a butt with it.

Rofellos allows you to thin your deck via Survival ... as well as hard casting threats.  That Reya doesn't seem that hard to cast now, does she ...

Wall of Roots is the same as a Birds ... only for green.  It allows you to use your duals for mana of the right colors, as opposed to tapping duals for green.

Joiner Adept is GODLY in this deck.  You need A lot of Red mana to empty your hand and kill an opponent?  Joiner turns those Bayous and Savannahs into Taigas!  Now you can cast that Kiki ... or that Reya ...

     Sneak Attack already gives your drops haste...  Do you really find Anger to have an important enough effect to include him in the build?  Rofellos and the Birds are the only creatures (okay, add Necromancers) that would benefit from his presence...  Seems a little limited in scope?

Anger makes sure that if you cannot get a Sneak into play, then you can still swing and do tricks on the same turn.

     Would you rather draw the Necromancer, or another beat?  Adding another color (black) for 5 slots doesn't seem efficient (although I flat out drool over the prospect of Sneaking a Kokusho).

The Doomed Necromancers, in my version (if I were to build it) would be Recurring Nightmares ... but I decided to go with a cheaper card.  Besides, you can Kiki your Mancer, get the creature you want into play, and still sac the original mancer for another creature.  Or:

Assume Anger in grave.  You have Mancer in play, as well as Kiki.  You sac Mancer for Nishoba, Kiki Nishoba, and swing for 14.  Gain 14 life, and still have a Nishoba to swing with next turn.

     Rector (damned near killed her) was one of the possibilities I'd debated with a G/R/W build...  Only problem remains how to get the thing into the graveyard/rfg from play...

Rectors are vital for this deck.  Ways to kill her:
Flametongue Kavu, Phyrexian Tower, Sneak Attack, I'm sure I can fit a Phyrexian Plaguelord into the deck or perhaps a Krovikan Horror.

     Do you find 1 Squee to be enough?  His synergy with Survival should probably be enough to deserve at least one more slot...  Better to pull out 2 beats through Survival than 1, especially if you're playing multi-player, or if your opponent has blockers / attackers...  I do realize that the other weenies can also serve as Survival fodder, but Squee's ability is too good to pass up, I would think...

One Squee is all you need, because you can Survival away other creatures and get a Mancer to reecur them, or if you were running Recurring Nightmare you could get the creatures back that way.  Also: See Genesis.  And If you're worried about having more than 1 creature to attack with, look at this little guy that they call Kiki-Jiki.  He does WONDERS for any Survival deck.

     [Regarding Reya]
Love the potential, but her 6WWW CC looks a bit difficult to cold cast, leaving the only method of having her in play enough to make a difference by utilizing the Necromancers...

I already showed you how you can hard cast her .. it's not difficult at all.  And if you don't use Necromancers (and instead use Rec. Nightmares, or perhaps Oath of Ghouls), then youc an get into play from the grave, whichopens up a can of worms and throws those worms at your opponent.

     I can see a lot of interaction between the various pieces / creatures in this build, and it does look like a lot of fun, but it seems a bit more problematic - almost combo-dependent, due to the lack of redundancy.

     What kinds of decks do you have problems with?  If the Survival gets countered/disenchanted, does the deck stand a shot?


     Man, I'd forgotten all about Kokusho...

1- It has many combo elements in it, but you can win without Survival.  I've won many games without Survival because of the Mana/Rangers and they allowed me to hardcast Bringer of the Blue Dawn, Phantom Nishoba, Duplicant, Reya, and many other annoying threats from my hand (in my Survival deck, which doesn't use Sneak, because it's a different build) ... It all depends ont he hand you draw, and remember ... EVERY CARD YOU DRAW IN THIS DECK IS A THREAT.  I've forced opponents to counter Birds of Paradise.  Forced opponents to Plow Birds and to Plow Rector as opposed to the other threats on the board.
Ooh a land! My Rofellos gives me more mana now!
Ooh a Phyrexian Tower!  Now I can sac that Rector and go off!
Ooh a Squee!  Save me the trouble of Survivaling for it!
Ooh a FTK!  Now I can kill that posky creature over there, or kill my Rector!

2- As I said before, if Survival goes boom, then you've removed a threat from your opponents hand ... and you still have a hand full of threats.  Yoiu may not even need Survival to win ... it'd be helpful, but remember ... we all have topdecking skills ... and when your entire deck is a threat ... you rarely ever frown when you topdeck a card.

3-  Yes, Kokusho is godly, especially in Multiplayer.  Yosei is good too ... but he's better for 1 on 1 games.

If you want, I can post my Rec/Sur deck in another post so that you can see it and hopefully understand what I'm talking about.

[AceOfJacks]

Here ... my Rec/Sur deck ... I posted this on www.gaiaonline.com ... since I'm sooo addicted to that site ... (GaiaOnline is a forum about many things ... and the Mtg area is filled with t2 noobs, so don't go there expecting to find anything good, or sane for that matter)

//NAME: Revenge of the Squirrels

Enchantment:
       1 Opposition
        3 Recurring Nightmare
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        1 Aura Shards
Instant:
       1 Ancestral Recall
Sorcery:
       1 Demonic Tutor
Creatures:
       2 Academy Rector
        1 Reya Dawnbringer
        1 Yosei, the Morning Star
        1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
        1 Tradewind Rider
        1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
        1 Anger
        1 Avalanche Riders
        1 Flametongue Kavu
        1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
        4 Birds of Paradise
        1 Deranged Hermit
        2 Eternal Witness
        3 Quirion Ranger
        1 Ravenous Baloth
        1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
        1 Spike Weaver
        1 Wall of Roots
        1 Phantom Nishoba
        1 Duplicant
        1 Masticore
Artifacts (Non-Creature):
       1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
Lands:
       4 Savannah
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Bayou
        4 Taiga
        3 Windswept Heath
        1 High Market
        1 Phyrexian Tower
        1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
SB:  1 Platinum Angel
SB:  1 Meddling Mage
SB:  1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB:  1 Woodripper
SB:  1 Viridian Zealot
SB:  1 Xantid Swarm
SB:  1 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  1 Furnace Dragon
SB:  1 Crater Hellion
SB:  1 Mindslicer
SB:  1 Radiant's Dragoons
SB:  1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
SB:  1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:  1 Hunting Grounds
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
Total: 65 cards.

Usually I do not go above 60, and if I do, then I limit myself to 62, but 65 is the max I use for Survival, because of Survival is a deck that can go above the 60 limit and still run smoothly.


Main Deck Card Choices:
Opposition: One of the setup cards for the kill.
Aura Shards: Makes sure I don't need main-deck Artifact/Enchantment removal.
Ancestral Recall: I own it, but I do not own any other pieces of Power.
Yosei, the Morning Star: Helps to slow opponent if they tap out.
Bringer of the Blue Dawn: Great for card drawing when Kiki'd, can also be used as a beatstick.
Kokusho, the Evening Star: Useful against Worship or Solitary Confinement.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker:  GODLY with a lot of ceatures in this deck.  Also useful in the kill mechanism.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking:  Used with multiple Quirion Rangers and Rofellos to maintain a mana advantage and to do multiple tricks per turn.
Deranged Hermit:  Kill mechanism.
Duplicant:  Anti-creature mechanism, also useful against that pesky Darksteel Collossus.
Lotus Petal: Acceleration is acceleration, even if it's only temporary.
High Market:  Useful if I need a creature in my graveyard or if I need to sacrfice a Rector.
Phyrexian Tower:  Mana accel, see also High Market.
Volrath's Stronghold:  If an opponent kills a creature I need, I can get it back if thing's arent going well.

Sideboard Card Choices:
Platinum Angel: Anti- Combo, Counter-Bait.
Meddling Mage: Anti- Control. Anti- Control.
Dosan, the Falling Leaf: Anti- Control.
Woodripper:  Anti- Welder, Anti- Affinity.
Viridian Zealot: Disenchant.
Xantid Swarm: Anti- Control.
Gorilla Shaman: Anti- Rich people.
Furnace Dragon: Anti- Artifact.
Crater- Hellion: Anti- Elf, Anti- Stompy.
Mindslicer: Anti- Combo, Anti- Control.
Radiant's Dragoons: Life Gain.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails: Anti- Removal, protection.
Crucible of Worlds: Anti- LD.
Hunting Grounds: Anti- Control.
Circle of Protection: Red: Anti- Burn.

[Mouth for War]

I have a Birds, a Rofellos, 2 Quirion Rangers, and 3 Forest Duals in play. I tap Rofellos for 3, drop Azusa. Tap dual, bounce to Ranger, untap Rofellos. Play land, tap Rofellos, tap any dual that i need the mana from, bounce it to the second ranger, untap rofellos, play the land AGAIN via Azusa. Tap that dual, now I have 9 mana in my mana pool. 6 of which is green, and the rest is the colors I needed from the duals. Now I can hardcast that Reya, or Cast Survival, Cast Sneak and still survival for a Phantom Nishoba, sneak it into play, and gain 7 life.
I play Survival/ Recurring Nightmare myself, and I love to find combos with Survival. I know that Azusa/Ranger/Rofellos works, because I've kicked many a butt with it.

Rofellos allows you to thin your deck via Survival ... as well as hard casting threats. That Reya doesn't seem that hard to cast now, does she ...

     Yes.  As I said in my previous post, it's difficult to conceive of a game (at least in my meta) where that many mana-producing creatures are allowed to stay in play.  Birds of Paradise and Rofellos are instant targets the second they hit the board, so they need to be able to be used within a turn or two.


      That said, I'm going to have to (at least) proxy up this deck just to have the pleasure of playing a deck that involves so many intricacies.  If it is as resilient as you say, it's certainly head and shoulders above my current R/G build.  Thanks !

[AceOfJacks]

I have a Birds, a Rofellos, 2 Quirion Rangers, and 3 Forest Duals in play. I tap Rofellos for 3, drop Azusa. Tap dual, bounce to Ranger, untap Rofellos. Play land, tap Rofellos, tap any dual that i need the mana from, bounce it to the second ranger, untap rofellos, play the land AGAIN via Azusa. Tap that dual, now I have 9 mana in my mana pool. 6 of which is green, and the rest is the colors I needed from the duals. Now I can hardcast that Reya, or Cast Survival, Cast Sneak and still survival for a Phantom Nishoba, sneak it into play, and gain 7 life.
I play Survival/ Recurring Nightmare myself, and I love to find combos with Survival. I know that Azusa/Ranger/Rofellos works, because I've kicked many a butt with it.

Rofellos allows you to thin your deck via Survival ... as well as hard casting threats. That Reya doesn't seem that hard to cast now, does she ...

     Yes.  As I said in my previous post, it's difficult to conceive of a game (at least in my meta) where that many mana-producing creatures are allowed to stay in play.  Birds of Paradise and Rofellos are instant targets the second they hit the board, so they need to be able to be used within a turn or two.


      That said, I'm going to have to (at least) proxy up this deck just to have the pleasure of playing a deck that involves so many intricacies.  If it is as resilient as you say, it's certainly head and shoulders above my current R/G build.  Thanks !

*cough* that's why you have Anger */cough*

And if you really want me to work on the deck seriously ... let me know ... I'll give you the best Unpowered version of Survival/ Sneak I can muster up

I love Survival of the Fittest and enjoy making decks around it.

[Mouth for War]

*cough* that's why you have Anger */cough*

     Yeah, I'm aware of Anger.  That just means you've got five cards (Birds, 2 Quirion, Rofellos, Anger - not including Squee, not including the Survival) that you're depending on to be where you need them to be, not running into creature removal, not running into graveyard hate, not running into disenchant effects, etc.

     Like I said before, it's hard to imagine a deck this...involved with itself (dependent on multiple card combinations) not having trouble against anything with control, but it looks so damned fun that I'm definitely going to have to proxy some cards up to see how well I can run it in this meta.  You say that every card is a threat, and I'm going to have to take your word on that - and then do my best to prove you right.

[AceOfJacks]

*cough* that's why you have Anger */cough*

     Yeah, I'm aware of Anger.  That just means you've got five cards (Birds, 2 Quirion, Rofellos, Anger - not including Squee, not including the Survival) that you're depending on to be where you need them to be, not running into creature removal, not running into graveyard hate, not running into disenchant effects, etc.

     Like I said before, it's hard to imagine a deck this...involved with itself (dependent on multiple card combinations) not having trouble against anything with control, but it looks so damned fun that I'm definitely going to have to proxy some cards up to see how well I can run it in this meta.  You say that every card is a threat, and I'm going to have to take your word on that - and then do my best to prove you right.

If you'r going to proxy up a deck ... try proxying up that Rec/Sur deck I posted ... and test it for yourself.
It's not a matter of seeing the card interactions on paper, it's a matter of knowing HOW to play the deck.  It's not your standard get fatte then beat with fattie deck, nor is it your get combo in hand an go off in one turn deck either ... it's a fun thing to play if you can understand the ins and outs of rec/sur.
And yes, it requires you to use your brain ... contrary to popular belief.

[Mouth for War]

And yes, it requires you to use your brain ... contrary to popular belief.

     No such thing as a good Magic deck that doesn't require you to use your brain.  

     Have you played the RecSur build much in multiplayer situations?

[AceOfJacks]

And yes, it requires you to use your brain ... contrary to popular belief.

     No such thing as a good Magic deck that doesn't require you to use your brain.  

     Have you played the RecSur build much in multiplayer situations?

Yes ... and people that didn't expcet it lost to it horribly, and the people that expected it tried to take me down.  And either way I ended up winning 4/5 games.

I went up against elves, Sligh, Control, and Affinity all at the same time and it was fun.

[AceOfJacks]

I've read your edits ... and I'm sorry that I've angered you.

Here is an honest attempt at what I would play if I wanted to go with multiplayer Sneak Attack.

NAME: Goryo's Dragons ... yeah I make up stupid names

enchantment
2 Oath of Ghouls
4 Sneak Attack
3 Greater Good

instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Plunge into Darkness

sorcery
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor

creature
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Ryusei, the Falling Star
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Phantom Nishoba

artifact
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

land
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire


I hope this is helpful.

Card choices:

Oath Of Ghouls gets you back that dragon after Sneak kills it.

Sneak Attack: Mandatory card.

Greater Good:  Card drawing, plus it's good with Goryo's Vengeance.

Dark Ritual: Helps to get 2nd turn Sneak on the table.

Goryo's Vengeance:  http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/bok/goryos_vengeance.jpg ... Once a creature has hit the table, this allows you to swing with it, and then you can sac it to Greater Good or a Plunge into Darkness and get your effect.  You can also splice one onto another if you like.

Plunge Into Darkness:  Lifegain, and kills your creature with Vengeance so that Vengeance doesn't remove it.  Cantrip to boot.

Regrowth:  Useful in a tight spot.

Demonic Tutor:  No comment.

Yosei, the Morning Star:  Great when you need to stall for another turn, expecially after you've killed your other opponent.

Kokusho, the Evening Star:  Godly in multi.

Ryusei, the Falling Star:  Board Control.

Birds of Paradise:  Mana Accel.

Phantom Nishoba:  Lifegain + trample = ^_^

Sol Ring:  Accel.

Lotus Petal:  Accel.

Phyrexian Tower:  Good to sac a creature when you Vengeance ... also useful if you need to just kill a creature of yours for the graveyard effect.

the land choices are yours ... but I belive I would either use those lands, or substitute the Bayous for Plateaus ...

[Mouth for War]

I've read your edits ... and I'm sorry that I've angered you.

     You haven't angered me.  The Rec/Sur build/s simply went away from the desired changes to the deck, and I wanted to try to steer any future conversation back towards a purely Sneak Attack build.  I've played an old version of Rec/Sur (and currently have a Reanimator deck as well), but it wasn't what I was asking for when I started this thread.  I'm simply looking to tweak Sneak Attack...make it a bit faster / more dangerous, and throw my group off with a new "look" so they don't automatically know what it is when I lay my first land card down.  

NAME: Goryo's Dragons ... yeah I make up stupid names

     You and I both, brother.  Hell, I just posted my "Simon and Garfunkel" deck the other day...

Card choices:

Oath Of Ghouls gets you back that dragon after Sneak kills it.

Sneak Attack: Mandatory card.

Greater Good: Card drawing, plus it's good with Goryo's Vengeance.

Goryo's Vengeance: Once a creature has hit the table, this allows you to swing with it, and then you can sac it to Greater Good or a Plunge into Darkness and get your effect. You can also splice one onto another if you like.

Plunge Into Darkness: Lifegain, and kills your creature with Vengeance so that Vengeance doesn't remove it. Cantrip to boot.

Yosei, the Morning Star: Great when you need to stall for another turn, expecially after you've killed your other opponent.

Kokusho, the Evening Star: Godly in multi.

Ryusei, the Falling Star: Board Control.

Phyrexian Tower: Good to sac a creature when you Vengeance ... also useful if you need to just kill a creature of yours for the graveyard effect.

     That's got to be some of the sickest synergy I've seen for Sneak Attack yet !!!   ROFLMAO !!!    I love it.  Looks like it's time for me to start trading for the new Dragon Legends.  


     Many thanks for the card ideas.  I hadn't even known about half of these (Plunge, Dragon legends, Vengeance).

[AceOfJacks]

  That's got to be some of the sickest synergy I've seen for Sneak Attack yet !!!   ROFLMAO !!!    I love it.  Looks like it's time for me to start trading for the new Dragon Legends.  


     Many thanks for the card ideas.  I hadn't even known about half of these (Plunge, Dragon legends, Vengeance).

Glad I was helpful.
Now the thing you have to remember:
Goryo's Vengeance removes the creature from the game at eot ... so you have to sac it before it dies ... eiher via Tower, via Greater Good, or via Plunge.

Consider some creature that sacrifices creatures as well, such as "He Who Hungers" (Your dragon legends are spirits, so they work with this guy)

I also built a Sneakless version of this deck ... and I have to say ... it's fun fun fun.  The only reason I removed Sneak however, is because I can't acquire Sneaks easily unless I pay cash for them, and as of the last 2 weeks my cash resources are virtually gone.


Also ... there are two inportant creatures that will thin your deck and make you scream.

"Iname, Death Aspect" and "Iname, Life Aspect"



You play the Iname Death, search all your spirits ... they go gravebound.  Now, depending on your hand and board status, you have multiple options.  You can search for the iname life as well, or you can try to D. Tutor for it or topdeck it or whatever.  It's up to you to get iname life into play and kill him somehow, then you get all your spirits in hand so that you may sneak them all into play and trigger their effects.  I must say ... it's quite funny.

And you can have 1 copy of Mortal Combat in the deck just in case they play stuff like Solitary Conefinement and you can't kill them by damage ... but that's what Kokusho is for as well.

And if you need to search up another card:
http://gatherer.wizards.com
http://www.magiccards.info