[discussion] Food Chain Goblins

[oldbsturgeon]

thats true about the warchief and in reality, i often time find that i dislike matron as it shows up when i dont want it to. so going to 1 seems okay.
now onto a different subject.
with the rise in basics, i think that wasteland is falling shorter and shorter these days, and could possibly be reduced. i know that that was actually a strength for the deck in certain matches, having access to 5 strip effects, but i think this could be reevaluated. of course if you are still encountering lots of duals, workshops, etc, by all means keep them in. but if the meta is budget stuff where people dont have duals, or if people are adapting, reduce them.

[Mark_Story]

I've noticed as people titan/waste proof their mana base that non-crucible supported strip effects really aren't worth it.  Against all welder decks if you don't have crucible your wasting your strips as the opponent will eventually get a crucible.  I'm just finding that the lands I want to waste, I can't keep them destroyed, so my wastes become ineffective.  Furthermore, with fish and landstill on the decline, there is even less incentive to play wastes.

Personally,  I'm playing with 3 strips and 2 Ancient tombs.  I'm finding that combination nice, as I usually get a tomb or a strip when I need it.  4 Tombs is far too many, and 3 might be right but that takes the number of wastes really low, if there is any 4CC/Tog in your meta I wouldn't go below 3 strips.

[oldbsturgeon]

it should be noted that if you are playing this deck in an area that is full of budget decks and random stuff, then the 5 strips probably isnt necessary.
take for instance where i play.
i live in WV with little vintage activity. when there is things like duals are in low numbers because, frankly, noone has them. instead of seeing good/powerful decks, i end up facing burn and bad stuff like that.
 the bad thing though is that the other big player around me ran 4CC so i felt as though i needed them against him. as it turns out they did help those matches. otherwise they were colorless mana that i wanted to be red.
the most tombs that i ever ran were 2, because i didnt want the mana base clogged with lots of colorless mana. i actually found myself not even liking sol ring in it that much, but thats just me. i still use it though as its helpful.

[Vegeta2711]

If you drop below 5 strips, run 0. The fact is once you go below 5, you then cannot count on seeing a to hit CS's red mana source, MWS decks turn 1 Shop when they DON'T play Cruicble and the ability to destroy Bazaar. So take the alternate route of trying to go faster...

If you use multiple Tomb's, RnR is far more viable, I still prefer AM though. Why? Because Artifact Mutation continues with your goal of beating down the opponent. Turn 2/3 Rack and Ruin is great and all, but not if you cast it and have little pressure to begin with. Still with Ancient Tomb it's a neat prospect.

[Mark_Story]

I prefer artifact mutation over R&R as well vegeta.  However, when testing against stax, chalice for two is really nasty.  It's during that match and matches when CS sides in chalice that R&R really shines.

I feel naked without some strip effects, I haven't decided to keep the tombs or not.  Probably stick with wastelands for a while longer, they have been good to me in the past.  And tombs do a significant amount of damage over the course of the game. It all comes down to metagame shifts.

[Freelancer]

Yeah indeed artifact mutation does help with your general goal off beating the opponent to crap, but something like half your deck is goblins and all off them translate into pressure...I don't see it happen to often that you wreck 2 of there artifacts and you don't have any pressure to follow it up...

What would you suggest as a solid (speed) build off FCG without the waste/strip?

I also agree that if you drop the amount off strips you have to go down to 0...Not only because you can't relie on 3x strip to take down important non-basics but also because multiple strips is so strong, if you go down to 3x strip double strip hands won't happen that often anymore...(double strip often means mana screw for the opponent, if he/she has 2x non-basic that is)


Did anybody test aether vial in FCG?
This is just something that a lot off decks use lately in T1.x and T2, and 'might' be beneficial...Dropping 2 goblins a turn is pretty sexy, especially when they can't be countered and are dropped at instant speed...Not sure though, since it messes with turn 1 lackey...

[oldbsturgeon]

youre right, it could be fun, but you are also right in that it competes with the 1st turn lackey.
if say i had trouble getting a lackey on 1 then i would play the vial.
but since i almost always have a hand with a lackey he is always the 1st turn card.
vial should be played on that turn too, but the presence of a lackey makes it a hard choice.
but here is reason that vial could be good:
turn 1 play vial
turn 2 put counter on vial, lay down a creature, vial out a lackey.
now you have 2 possible outlets to get uncounterable beats on the table.

even with that said, i am a little skeptical of adding the vial.

[Freelancer]

Your probably right, it was just a untested idea that I thought off in like 10 seconds...Besides it breaks rule number 1: no non-goblin/mana/food chain cards in FCG maindeck...

It might have some merrits as a sideboard card against mono-U control since they have no real way off blocking a lackey...And countering both vial AND lackey depletes there counters significantly...(a resolved vial is very hard to deal with for mono-U control since it essentially nullifies all off there counters)

[Mark_Story]

I wouldn't play aether vial maindeck right now.  It breaks the non-goblin, non-food chain, non-mana rule of the deck.  Furthermore, you'd have to remove goblins to make room for it.  Decreasing your threat density, which is is the main reason the deck is so resilient.  However, As a huge if, welder gets restricted (I hope not) and Mono blue becomes a dominant archetype, then perhaps it might be worth considering as a sideboard slot, But as things stand, I wouldn't really consider it.

[Vegeta2711]

Vial would be in the deck like that, if[/b] Vintage wasn't about completely crushing the opponent by turn 2. In other words, the enviroment is too fast currently to help.

BTW, Vial essentially is a mana source, trust me. If you've played 1.x goblins with Vial, you know how much mana it can generate over a game.

[Freelancer]

Your right about aether vial if the metagame changes to a turn 3; 'I R gonna PWN you' it might be some good...Not that thats going to happen anytime soon...

Still the question remains; what will be your opinion on the manabase when you remove 5 strips? add another tomb and 1/2 mountains? Also what cards would you recommend to add when you got space left? I was thinking to add a kiki-jikki mirror breaker and 2/3 artifact mutations main...What do you think?

[DarkExodus]

i play with kiki and it is really awesome!!
you can copy a matron for searching any card like incinerator, it can copy a siege gang or a ringleader, or.....

[JamesPr]

Wasteland and Strip mine are more than just disruption, they're mana sources.  So it wouldn't be the best idea to take out mana and add more spells because you increase the rate of mana screw.  I suppose you could include like three ancient tombs and two metagame spells.

[Freelancer]

@JamesPR If you read my post carefully you will see that I suggested to swap them for 2/3 mana sources and 'something'...I might actually add in 3x vial as extra 'mana  sources'...

Do you think that in the current metagame where wasted lands are regrowing faster than you can waste them or that entire archetypes aren't affected by them is still the house it used to be? (slaver is rarely affected since it only needs R once, same with oath -to a lesser extend-)

IMHO wasteland is quite bad in the current metagame, and is occasionally usefull for wasting dangerous lands. But I find myself much more often in the position off a single R mana source, wich I hate because I can't drop warchief/multiple gobbo's...
The metagame is slowly shifting back to non-basics though, so the wastelands become necessary again...(just speculation though)

[cryolyte]

I have taken a different approach to FCG by adding black. Before you immediately discount it because it's a third color, take a look at my list with an open mind.

4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloostained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Food Chain
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker (substitute for 1 SGC, testing)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Matron
1 Skirk Prospector (I find I only want him when comboing out)
1 Goblin Welder (he's a goblin and helps to keep artifacts under control)
1 Goblin Vandal
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Natualize

SB:

3 Planar Void (Tog, Decks using AK engine, decks using welder, forces dragon to use necromancy instead of animate AND screws up squee, Yawg will decks, screws crucible)

4 Red Elemental Blast (blue decks)
2 Artifact Mutation (CS, Stax)
2 Diabolic Edict (Oath, tinker-> colossus gameplan)
2 Tormod's Crypt (more Graveyard hate)
2 Ensnaring Bridge (oath, colossus)

Points of contention:

Not enough green mana sources for food chain - I cut 2 taigas for 2 badlands. I'm running six fetches to grab 1 of 2 taiga plus the mox emerald. So in effect I'm running 9 green sources and 8 black sources.

Diluting the manabase slows your comboing ability - I comboed out last night games 1 and 3 on 2nd and 3rd turn respectively to beat belcher in a match. Food Chain usually gets countered by decks running blue so I find that more often than not I am playing as aggro moreso than combo.

The lone welder - swapping platz/smokestack/Tangle Wire/Memory Jar for artifact mana is fun

I run naturalize main because there are 2 oath decks in my meta.

Why black? - Planar Void is a HOUSE. It negates the functionality of these cards: Welder, Crucible, Squee, Accumulated Knowledge, Yawgmoth's will.  It futher hurts Oath by removing whatever flips on top of the gaea's blessing. It makes things more difficult for dragon by forcing them to use only necromancy's ability to be played as an instant to combo out.

Diabolic Edict can deal with Oathed up creatures and colossus win conditions.

[oldbsturgeon]

thats an interesting idea you have there. tog does seem to be growing rather strong again now that the sphere is restricted. i would have to try it out to see how it worked, but it does seem okay and could definitely be strong.
i think that what some people might say is that you are adding a color for sideboard which is usually not suggested. when i was playing goblin bidding in T2 i added green to the board for naturalize, and it was fine. back to vintage now. it should be fine that this deck is also that way. i think that the only black card you would want maindecked is the one you have already have.
i was just thinking of another black card for the sb chains of mephistopheles. since the deck doesnt have card draw and the ringleader aspect would still work, it could be nice. i am not sure of this card but wanted to suggest it for you.

[Rastadon]

Hey, I'm a bit new to FCG so take it easy on me if I say stupid stuff. I pulled this decklist from the FCG primer and tweaked it a little, but I hate how colorless mana intensive it is, not to mention I can't afford the Black Lotus and the Moxen. When it combos off, it goes off around turn 3, pretty slow considering Dragon and Kobold Klamp usually win by turn 2. With that in mind, what should I take out/add to make this quicker and more affordable?

4x Karpulsan Forest
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
1x Black Lotus
1x Chrome Mox
4x Wooded Foothills
5x Mountain

1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring

2x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
2x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Recruiter
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Goblin Warchief
2x Seige-Gang Commander
4x Skirk Prospector

4x Food Chain

Thanks.

[Mark_Story]

Well if you are looking at removing the power, adding mountains is a good idea.  I don't think the karpulsan forests are really necessary.  You need 1-2 green mana max in a game.  So there's no need to run painlands and increase your non-basic count.   Also subsituiting in 2-3 Elvish spirit guides is a good plan for a powerless build.  They are acceleration, and allow you more access to the green you may need.  I've found that having both sol ring and crypt is a bit much but if it works for you go with it.

As for making it faster.  There's not much you can really do.  You can use wasteland to slow down your opponent.  If there is a lot of combo in your area, I wouldn't suggest playing goblins.  They are not as fast as the other combo decks, and are therefore unable to compete in dragon/TPS infested metas.

Personally I love having 4 gempalms.  They kill welders and weenies, and draw cards.   I would only play 1 sharpshooter, unless there are a lot of elves running around.   The rest of the deck looks pretty standard to me.  And there is no effective way to make it faster, unless better goblins get printed in the future.

[Freelancer]

My thread got bumped again...Great

About adding black: Its an interesting approuch...But you have to ask yourself do I need it? You get vampiric tutor wich is kinda weak in FCG since you don't have any real bombs to get (or the time to get them), it does allow you to assemble the combo faster (with tutor you find the pieces faster so you go off faster) but than again you get mana problems and if you need to use the tutor you waste a entire turn (both a card, and usually your off colour mana source) while you might have been better off with a regular beatdown goblin (beatdown is often almost as fast than comboing out, if you play it right)...
In the sideboard it doesn't really add anything either, you get planar void (wich is triggered and thus gives your opponent way to many options) and edict (wich is only really usefull against oath, against colossus gameplan you have artifact mutation -yes with 11 1/1 tokens you can race a colossus rather easily-)...

Is it really worth adding black? IMHO no, but keep testing it though and if you like it keep it in...


Ps. I'm interested in how your testing pans out, so post any results in this thread...  (I would specifically like to know or black speeds you up or not)

[cryolyte]

Okay so I'm giving up on black. After careful analysis, I think that if I get a fetchland I need to be looking for green mana exclusively to cast food chain, artifact mutation or naturalize. Here is the decklist I am running for a small tournament tonight:

5x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Ancient Tomb
2x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus
---
23 Mana Sources (is it too few?)

4x Food Chain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Recruiter
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Welder
1x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Warchief
1x Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker (he's a brick.... house)
1x Seige-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
2x Naturalize
2x Artifact Mutation
---
37 Spells


SB:
4x Null Rod
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Rack and Ruin
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Artifact Mutation
1x Naturalize

I think in the absence of Trinisphere we will see these things happen:

- More combo because they think they'll have it easy now that 3sphere is gone.

- Everyone thinks Workshop decks will take a step back, but I contend they will remain a force to be reckoned with now that they put Chalice of the Void into their decks. This means: Stax (prison) will remain about the same or a little less, and a resurgence of 7/10 and 5/3 MWS aggro. Should I be running a Karplusan Forest in my list to mitigate Sundering Titan?

- More Tog and Fish, but more tog than fish due to Oath

I decided to run Rack and Ruin in the board to get around Chalice for 2, then I decided to run Null Rod in the board for combo. Since these both share the mana cost of 2 colorless, I'm running 2x Ancient Tomb maindeck in place of wastelands. Some people here have mentioned that wasteland doesn't seem as useful anymore, and I agree to the extent that maybe running 5 strip/waste isn't the best plan of action anymore. I cannot take the advice of going down to 0 in good faith, however. The all or nothing course of action dismisses games where I will need a wasteland, but not 2 in my opening hand. Which is also why I'm forgoing Blood Moon.

I am playing in a large tournament for a Black Lotus on Sunday  and I will post my results here if the owner of this post wants me to (so as not to hijack his thread).

Does my logic here hold water? Are there any changes you would make? Is 4x Gempalm Incinerator too many? I do fear welder --> Trike.

[Rastadon]

What do you copy with Kiki-Jiki? Once you get Food Chain and Recruiter going, I'd imagine that you don't really need it.

[oldbsturgeon]

i kind of always felt the same way about kikki too. by the time it comes, i would think you should have already won already.
 ive heard though from several people that it really is awesome in the deck, as when the game can go long, infinite seige gangs become better than gold. i would probably try it out, then take it out if i didnt like it.

[Mark_Story]

From my testing Kiki-Jiki, was a total win-more card.  I found I could only play him when I had a lackey on the table.  If I was able to do that and drew into any goblins the board improved. Furthermore, with the combo out, why bother?  any damage over 20 is gravy.  And lastly when I had 5 mana, out I  was either very close to losing or winning extremely well.  So I took him out.  It was a card that I didn't feel was needed to win with the deck.  If it's working for you, then keep it going.  But Kiki is not a cornerstone of the deck.  

I too found ancient tomb very useful in the maindeck.  However, I found there were still too many non-basics in my meta to justify not having the wastes.  Inclusion of the tombs is really a metagame decision.  If there is a lot of combo, and you need the acceleration they're great.  I didn't find them to improve the stax matchup substantially.  ( I find not much works well against a good stax player though)

One thing to truly fear when playing goblins is chalice for 2.  If you haven't boarded in the R&R's.  You have no answers, and no way of winning the matchup if chalice for two resolves  So watch out for that.

[cryolyte]

Kiki-Jiki is working well for me because sometimes I have a lackey out and I'm not getting the combo cards to go off with. Let's say I play first turn lackey, second turn recruiter (no food chain in sight) with kiki in my hand. I do a 5 card stack with ringleader on top, warchief, piledriver, piledriver, piledriver. I attack with Lackey and drop kik-jiki. Third turn I draw ringleader, and either play him with mana or attack and drop him with lackey (depends on a lot of factors - mana base, playing against blue, etc) then I draw my short-stack goblins. Now I can use Kiki-Jiki's ability to make a ringleader copy and dig for more goblins next turn, or copy the recruiter and make another stack (though maybe I would have made the first recruiter stack larger, but sometime you have to play it safe in case you need to draw into artifact mutation/naturalize or whatever - you can't draw your hate and mana with goblins stacked).

There are so many useful creatures to copy in this deck -
Warchief copy - can let all your gobs cost another one less
Lackey copy - can allow you to drop another goblin
recruiter copy - stack again
ringleader copy - dig for more goblins
piledriver copy - more beats
siege-gang copy - more mana/beats
 
This is just one scenario of many, and while sometimes he is a win-more card, as he is when going off, he has proven himself most useful in sub-optimal aggro mode. I think it is important to recognize that while going off is the way you WANT to go at all times with this deck, other times it just doesn't happen that way and you have to play aggro. This is where kiki shines.

I lost to a metagamed goblinsligh/fish type rogue deck because of bad draws and good luck on his part. I defeated 3-0 dragon in the 4th round, which gave me good enough tie-breakers to get 3rd place. I stomped sui-black and stomped some nasty slaver deck with workshops and white. Other decks present were - sensei, AuriOath, Doomsday, TPS, Tog.

Unfortunately I don't have any stax in my metagame to test against, but I'm betting Ill see some at the lotus tournament on Sunday.

[cryolyte]

Oops, forgot to address a few other things. I did miss not having the extra wastelands, to my surprise. So I need to revamp the mana base, which looks like so:

5x Mountain
4x Taiga
2x Ancient Tomb
2x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus

I'm thinking
-1 Mountain
-1 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Wasteland

Any other Ideas?

As for Chalice for 2 - it is savage. I am thinking about running 1 artifact mutation and 1 rack and ruin main instead of the 2 artifact mutations. I also think that maybe the welder could come out, either for another rack and ruin or for Goblin Vandal. The Vandal seems like he might do some good, if for nothing else than killing moxen. I know Vegeta advised against him in the primer, but I really would like another goblin that is tutorable with my matrons that can destroy artifacts. I already took one Gempalm out and added the second Goblin Matron. Kiki-Jiki on matron is fun as well. But I wanted more tutoring power. Comments?

[Rastadon]

Would it be so awful if you included Mox Monkey? The only downside I see is it's not workable with Goblin Matron. If not, the only other artifact muching gob I can think of is Goblin Archaeologist.

Okay, you guys convinced me. Kiki Jiki sounds worthwhile early game. Problem is, my build doesn't really utilize Lackey like it should. It's pretty rare that it will drop a seige gang, most of the time it drops utility stuff like Matron and Ringleader. Any suggestions?

[Jacob Orlove]

One key Kiki trick is that you can use his ability during your opponent's end of turn step to create a creature that won't die until the beginning of your own EOT step (the next time "at end of turn" triggers are checked). This isn't usually relevant, but if you drop Kiki off a lackey, you can copy the lackey EOT, make a second copy on your turn, and potentially drop 3 more goblins into play. While I'm on the subject of Lackey triggers, if you get two or more triggers at once, CIP abilities for the first goblin resolve before the second trigger--so if you drop Matron or Ringleader you get the new goblin(s) before you have to pick one for the second Lackey trigger.

[warble]

The biggest suggestion is:

Run 4 artifact mutation, not 4 null rod.

What are you thinking?  Null rod tries to shut down your opponent, while naturalize and artifact mutation just destroy his attempts to kill you.  Not only do you get to target, you get disruption and an entire turn against slaver.  Additionally, pentavus turns into a 3 turn clock for YOU.  In terms of lackey not functioning correctly, on turn 2 you should get some amazing drops or you aren't mulliganing correctly.  You should know that food chain goblins runs no draw power aside from ringleader, so if you have no ringleader and no recruiter and you don't have the right cards in your hand, you shouldn't keep the hand.  If you have a recruiter and sharpshooter/incinerator you're welcome to win on turn 4 relatively safely.  But if you're keeping some strange hand where free goblin drops for 0 mana aren't good, it just means you're playing it wrong.  If free goblins don't help your GOBLIN deck out, wtf are you playing it for?  A 7th turn food chain kill or something worse then that?

Also, the post above me is very good showing the power of kiki with lackey, but again note how it relies on having the cards in HAND, not topdecking.  You never topdeck if you aren't running draw power, it's wrong.

[cryolyte]

I'm not sure what you mean by "not utilizing lackey like you should". If your hand is looking like you can combo out, drop the goblins that help you achieve that. If it doesn't look like you can combo out soon, then you can choose one of two paths: Either drop goblins that will help get you closer to comboing out (ringleader, warchief) or go the aggro route and drop piledrivers and seige-gang.

re mox monkey: I don't know how to put it, but mox monkey seems bad here. I fear the chalice for two, and casting mox monkey and then getting five mana to kill the chalice is just too much. Plus you can't get him with the matron. I hate to say it because I dislike rules and enjoy trying to "think out of the box", but someone will say it so I might as well "he breaks the golden rule that says that everything in the deck should be goblins, mana, or food chains". "

I am liking the welder a bit, but I wish I could find something better. He does his job when he's left alone, but because he "the joblin welder" he has a big bulls-eye on him and rarely sticks around long. Of course, better him that my lackey/piledriver I guess.

I took a null rod out of the sideboard and added a pyrokinesis for fish and that bird shit deck that everyone in my meta just loves.

[cryolyte]

@Orlove: Thanks for those golden nuggets concerning Kiki - that will definitely come in useful

@warble: dude, the null rods are for combo: TPS, Belcher, MD Tendrils.
I am currently running 2 artifact mutation main along with two naturalize (for dragon and oath mainly). And in my board I have another Artifact mutation, another naturalize, and 3 Rack and Ruin. So in total I run 3 Artifact Mutation, which I think is plenty, and that in addition to, not instead of, the null rods.