SCG Premium decklist policy

[Jacob Orlove]

<knutgone> For the record, we don't care if you guys post individual decklists on the site that came from premium
<knutgone> decklists are free info

So feel free to copy/paste decklists to these forums when you link premium articles/content.

Also, as a totally random aside, some people don't seem to realize that Keeper and Chess are no longer censored by the autofilter.

[Machinus]

That is generous of Knut. Does SCG allow decklist witholding?

chess keeper what? awesome.

[Revvik]

Wha?  I'm afraid I don't get the whole chess / keeper thing.

The decklist bit is good news though, although it is still less advantageous than reading the Premium articles that the lists came from, since you have to draw your own conclusions about optimal playing, and other stuff I usually skim over (explains my record at some of my recent tournaments).

Bravo.

EDIT (rather than cluttering up the thread with another post): Thank you Saucemaster, JP.  Now, what do I have to do to get control of an autocensor?  

[virtual]

This is awesome.   Even though I think trying to enforce it the other way would be nigh impossible (does adding 1x nettling imp change the decklist sufficiently so it's unique, etc), it's great that they aren't making it an issue.

Way to go SCG.

-Virtual

[jpmeyer]

Wha?  I'm afraid I don't get the whole chess / keeper thing.

The decklist bit is good news though, although it is still less advantageous than reading the Premium articles that the lists came from, since you have to draw your own conclusions about optimal playing, and other stuff I usually skim over (explains my record at some of my recent tournaments).

Bravo.

For a while, if you typed in "Keeper", the auto-censor was set to change it to "4 Color Control."  I forget what "Chess" was set to, but that was because people were starting a million chess threads in basic community.

[Saucemaster]

For a while, if you typed in "Keeper", the auto-censor was set to change it to "4 Color Control."  I forget what "Chess" was set to, but that was because people were starting a million chess threads in basic community.

"Chess" became "Isuckatmagic"

[Methuselahn]

<knutgone> For the record, we don't care if you guys post individual decklists on the site that came from premium
<knutgone> decklists are free info

So feel free to copy/paste decklists to these forums when you link premium articles/content.

Cool, we get individual decklists.  What about groups of decklists, tabulated and compiled from many tournaments?  ala Dr. Sylvan?  Is this free information?  If not, do I get paid if I submit T8 results for a tourny that is over 50 people?

maybe the knutster could answer this.

[JACO]

<knutgone> For the record, we don't care if you guys post individual decklists on the site that came from premium
<knutgone> decklists are free info

So feel free to copy/paste decklists to these forums when you link premium articles/content.

Cool, we get individual decklists.  What about groups of decklists, tabulated and compiled from many tournaments?

I think his answer is clear; decklists are free info. Whether you post 8 individual threads with 1 decklist each, or all 8 top 8 decklists is 1 thread, the information is the same, and SCG is not going to prevent anyone from spreading this information. That's his point.

[Methuselahn]

Yes, however, Dr. Sylvan's stats are Premium.  The point I tried to make by asking those questions is that those stats should be free information.  Sort of off topic, but not any more than the censorship thing.  Note, Pip does not decide whether the content is premium or not, according to our chats.  Since it is not free information, why should I feel inclined to donate top 8 lists?  I sure as hell am not going to type out a full top 8 list if I cannot see the final result, thus gaining nothing from it.  Finally, I don't see why I should have to pay for information, delivered by the public, if it is not a result of critical thinking.

[Necrologia]

Dr. Sylvan's stats aren't decklists, so I don't see what the problem is. Decklists are free, analysis of the the entire metagame is premium. Knut's said in the past that Dr. Sylvan's stats are premium, simply because if he was doing them for another format they'd be premium.

[MixedkNuts]

Additionally, if YOU are interested in taking the time to tally up the stats and do the analysis for all the decklists that Pip does and post them on TMD every month, feel free.   There's nothing stopping you from doing your own non-Premium analysis of public information, but as Necro said, if I or anyone else was writing Stanton's articles for any other format (and it happens), that information would be Premium.

To me this is totally a non-issue, especially since we provide links to the locations of the decklists, thus giving whatever site posts them free advertising from the biggest independent Magic website in existence.  If Pip + the rest of the Premium writers + the coverage + Flores/Zvi/Ellis + Yawgatog's work aren't enough to get you to join Premium, so be it...  Feel free to spend the 30-40 hours a year it will take you to tally Pip's monthly info alone and publish the info here - I'm sure plenty of TMDers will rejoice.

--Knut

[doomhed]

Flame deleted.
-Jacob

I for one will not be submitting any specific decklists to Dr. S if the information is going to stay premium. I have quite a few things in the works for some possible large-venue events, and sadly, I will not be part of the bullshit.

[jpmeyer]

If you spent the amount of time working a part-time job that Pip spends making just one of those articles, you could pay for a year's Premium membership.

Pip works harder than any other Vintage writer out there.

[Methuselahn]

You are all absolutely right.  

That being said, I will only bother typing out decklists for the MN top8 if they are under 50 people, for zherbus.  The last one was just over 40, so I didn't mind doing it.  For SCGs sake, I hope you have Premium consumers in every city of every state to provide you with every single T8 that qualifies for Pip's lists, since you can't enforce getting decklists through sanctioning.

I would find it hard to evaluate which cards are strong and popular because it is based on who has a premium account.  If only premium members can see the data, how can you expect non-premium members to fuel you with stats when it does them zero good.  What possible motivation would they have.  Without total representation, you have a tainted sample.  So go ahead, make it premium and flawed.

I would never in the history of forever want to do the work of Pip.  Please don't get the impression that I think it is simple or easy.  I consider it a luxury to have these stats, yes.  The thing is, Mr. Stanton has chosen to do it, even before SCG started paying him for it, so don't please don't try to pass it off as something other than a labor of love.

[Revvik]

I would find it hard to evaluate which cards are strong and popular because it is based on who has a premium account.  If only premium members can see the data, how can you expect non-premium members to fuel you with stats when it does them zero good.  What possible motivation would they have.  Without total representation, you have a tainted sample.  So go ahead, make it premium and flawed.

On the flip side, why intentionally make Stanton's work harder?

I think that those giant tables that make my head spin should earn him some compensation.  I for one would hate to have that kind of task in front of me and receive no financial reward for my spent time.

[Methuselahn]

Revvik: I think you sort of answer your own question.  Except, I'm not trying to make his job harder,  I just don't work for free.  Unfortunately, Pip has no entitlement to get decklists from anyone.  This is proxy vintage, remember.

If he doesn't want that task, then he can simply choose not to do it.

[luke_twigger]

Since it is not free information, why should I feel inclined to donate top 8 lists? I sure as hell am not going to type out a full top 8 list if I cannot see the final result, thus gaining nothing from it
...
I for one will not be submitting any specific decklists to Dr. S if the information is going to stay premium
...
how can you expect non-premium members to fuel you with stats when it does them zero good
...
Pip has no entitlement to get decklists from anyone

I thought the whole point of publicly posting Top8 decklists on websites such as this one was to enrich and inform the whole community. Are you suggesting that the only person who is going to read your typed Top8 decklists is Dr Sylvan? I for one always look at Top8 decklist threads out of interest to see what other players from all around the world have in their decks.

So because you disagree with how one person/website makes use of your Top8 decklists you are going to deprive the rest of the Type1 community too?

Also, by way of metaphor and comparison. You know all the financial information like share price, company profit, etc? That's all public domain. Yet you're not going to find a merchant banker sharing his statistics, historical averaging and trend analysis with you for free now are you?

Luke

[Rico Suave]

Since it is not free information, why should I feel inclined to donate top 8 lists? I sure as hell am not going to type out a full top 8 list if I cannot see the final result, thus gaining nothing from it
...
I for one will not be submitting any specific decklists to Dr. S if the information is going to stay premium
...
how can you expect non-premium members to fuel you with stats when it does them zero good
...
Pip has no entitlement to get decklists from anyone

I thought the whole point of publicly posting Top8 decklists on websites such as this one was to enrich and inform the whole community. Are you suggesting that the only person who is going to read your typed Top8 decklists is Dr Sylvan? I for one always look at Top8 decklist threads out of interest to see what other players from all around the world have in their decks.

So because you disagree with how one person/website makes use of your Top8 decklists you are going to deprive the rest of the Type1 community too?

Also, by way of metaphor and comparison. You know all the financial information like share price, company profit, etc? That's all public domain. Yet you're not going to find a merchant banker sharing his statistics, historical averaging and trend analysis with you for free now are you?

Luke

If SCG is going to take away the enrichment and information that is Dr.Sylvan's articles and force people to pay for them, then talks of "enrichment" and "community" have no place here.  The only thing that matters would be money.

Clearly, making such vital stats that Dr.Sylvan does is enriching and informing too.  The point here is that if Dr.Sylvan is considered worthy of being payed for his work, why shouldn't the people doing the dirty work (getting the top8 lists) get paid too?  That requires effort, committment, and time too.

[BigChuck]

The point here is that if Dr.Sylvan is considered worthy of being payed for his work, why shouldn't the people doing the dirty work (getting the top8 lists) get paid too? That requires effort, committment, and time too.

Anyone could have thought to compile that information in articles. He is the only one who did it, so why shouldn't he get compensated? The fact that you want to get paid for typing up a Top Eight is ridiculous. Would you prefer to never see the results for any tournament, or can you live with the fact that he makes a little extra spending cash off taking advantage of data that is already there?

[Hi-Val]

I thought that typing up a T8 decklist was something that you did to promote your venue, promote your tournament, promote the players and generally help the community. If you don't want to type up the T8 decklists of a 50+ person tournament, that's just fine. Ray and Co. typed up ALL the decklists for Waterbury, if I remember correctly. That's because they're awesome people and they give to the community and they want people to see that serious players with serious decks go to their tournaments.

I suppose I should ask, because it is concurrent in theme, are you in favor of being able to withold a decklist? Because what you're doing if you say "I'm not gonna type these up, I'm lazy/vindictive/unpaid", you're letting 8 winning decklists be witheld. Opinions on this?

[Methuselahn]

Anyone could have thought to compile that information in articles. He is the only one who did it, so why shouldn't he get compensated? The fact that you want to get paid for typing up a Top Eight is ridiculous. Would you prefer to never see the results for any tournament, or can you live with the fact that he makes a little extra spending cash off taking advantage of data that is already there?

You appear to believe in some sort of false sense of entitlement.  Go ahead and compensate Pip though, I would love for him to be rolling in money.  However, if someone is going to make money off me, you better bet that I am going to change personal policy.  Nobody makes money off me for free.  I want to get 'paid'.  I'm from the United States of America, man.

I have no qualms to collectively volunteer.  Doing it this way, I would type up lists all day long.  This information should be public knowledge.

If I don't get a share of the pie, then the stats actually become even smaller.  If thats fine with you, then ok.  If you want a tainted sample that you have to pay for, then by all means, go for it.

luke_twigger:  I'm sorry that my protest interferes with your net surfing for tech.  Also, I don't understand the relevance of your merchant banker example exactly.  Nobody is doing anything for free for any bankers.

EDIT:

Opinions on this?

I'm in the same camp as SCG,  I'm all about withholding when money is involved.  Unfortunately money has forced me to change my view of 'withhold nothing' to 'give nothing if you are receiving nothing'

[Revvik]

Opinions on this?

I think that withholding information on that level is wrong on more than just a "free flow of information" level*.

Decklists and T8 information do more than tell what won.  It informs the world of:

- Your area (holy shit, they play Vintage in Battle Creek? [no, they really don't   ])
- The skill of your area
- The 'style' of your area (as an extreme example, look at NE and the 'control' stereotyping of it)
- The amount of innovation put into the decks that placed
- On a different note, WHO placed (which will be important at one point or another, if Vintage is ever taken further than it is already)

Decklists give away more information than you think at first glance.  I guess I can put it this way: posting top 8 information is helpful to our community - people read, learn, and grow.  Withholding that information is harmful to our community - innovation doesn't happen, growth stagnates.

* Note that this was not a personal attack on anyone involved in the events of last year - I understand fully understand the reasons for withholding the "SX" list, and no one should raise the issue when answering Hi-Val's question.

[luke_twigger]

luke_twigger:  I'm sorry that my protest interferes with your net surfing for tech.  Also, I don't understand the relevance of your merchant banker example exactly.  Nobody is doing anything for free for any bankers.

They do actually. All companies have to report a whole bunch of financial information in their annual reports - which are free. Which are basically a whole pile of numbers in the public domain. (Like Top8 decklists)

Financial analysts take all those raw numbers and do complicated analysis. (Like Dr Sylvan's stats)

Luke

[Hi-Val]

In the vein of investment and finances, a company releases a public profile because it wants to draw investors who think that the company is doing well and will turn a profit. A TO for the same reason releases decklists; if no altruistic arguments sway you, perhaps knowing that people will see that there is an actual scene and make the attempt to show up at a tournament in the future. If people see that a certain deck is doing well, they may buy sideboard cards at that store to deal with it. My point is thus-- it is financially helpful to release decklists.

And come on, it's like 20 minutes to type up a T8. If I pay to enter a tournament, I would hope that the TO would at least have the decency to type up the decklists of what beat me. I don't just pay to try to win, I pay to see what other people are tinkering around with too!

[Methuselahn]

if no altruistic arguments sway you, perhaps knowing that people will see that there is an actual scene and make the attempt to show up at a tournament in the future.

Perhaps, but in my own experience, at least in the Twin Cities, this is not necessary.  Heck, nowadays, you are lucky to find even a tournament announcement for a power tourny at Dreamers.  This doesn't mean they don't happen though.  They have been happening consistantly for like 4 years now.  The store owner, a successful businessman, has seen no reason to enforce getting decklists as no one seems to care.  I had been doing it for the benefit of the community here, because I saw that I could get something in return- Dr. Sylvan's stats.  Now I don't get them because I refuse to get premium.  I only play Vintage and my team board is far more helpful than SCG Premium will ever be.  There lies my stance.

As for the argument that it only takes 20 minutes to do or whatever is asinine.  I spend all that and then some writing these silly posts.  It's about making a stand on your views, not being lazy.

[Hi-Val]

So making a stand > contributing data that is used to determine whether cards are restriction-worthy, something that I think you'll agree helps the community? I realize that you're burned because you don't want to pay for it and that you're under no obligation to do it. But is there seriously zero good that comes of you typing up decklists, or does the not-good outweigh the good, in utilitarian terms? I also realize that I'm not going to sway you one way or another, I'm just curious because your reversal seems... sudden.

[Methuselahn]

So making a stand > contributing data that is used to determine whether cards are restriction-worthy, something that I think you'll agree helps the community? I realize that you're burned because you don't want to pay for it and that you're under no obligation to do it. But is there seriously zero good that comes of you typing up decklists, or does the not-good outweigh the good, in utilitarian terms? I also realize that I'm not going to sway you one way or another, I'm just curious because your reversal seems... sudden.

Good questions, indeed.

Please let me reiterate a few things.

Did you say utilitarian? No, I'm an American, who's been active in the U.S. workplace for about 17 years now, so call me biased.  I'm living the American Dream.  I have to look out for #1 first.  I don't necessarily believe in the impractical ideal of utilitarianism.  So yes, the 'not-good' weighs more in utilitarian terms.

Yes, my 'reversal' does seem sudden.  That's because someone is now making money off me, although a paltry sum, I agree.  But the fact remains:  Nobody makes money off me for nothing AND I think this information should be public knowledge.  Also, fortunately for me I enjoy the format regardless of the current restrictions.

I'm in the same camp as SCG, I'm all about withholding when money is involved. Unfortunately money has forced me to change my view of 'withhold nothing' to 'give nothing if you are receiving nothing'

"burned" may be a bit strong.  If they can make it work and pass it off, then props to them.  As I said before,

For SCGs sake, I hope you have Premium consumers in every city of every state to provide you with every single T8 that qualifies for Pip's lists, since you can't enforce getting decklists through sanctioning.

There is probably good that could come of it, but I'm trying to make a stand here, so sacrifices have to be made.

Also, how much Pip's stats are relavent to the DCI decision making process is a whole other debate.

[JACO]

Now I don't get them because I refuse to get premium. I only play Vintage and my team board is far more helpful than SCG Premium will ever be. There lies my stance.

So let me get this straight. Your 'team board' is far more insightful than all of the articles on SCG Premium? Does your wonderful 'team board' have original articles and content about how to pilot the newest combo or control or hybrid decks, or live coverage of the biggest Type 1 tournaments in America, or monthly statistical analysis of most of the biggest Type 1 tournaments around the globe? Does it have articles by Flores, Zvi, Chad Ellis, and others that don't specifically have to do with Type 1, but are some of the best articles written about topics like interactivity, the fundamental turn, and so on? Because if your team board does all that for less than the 8.21 PENNIES a day that SCG Premium costs, I think all of us would want to join such an insightful team board, where the knowledge flows with such vigor, and on a regular basis. Plus it would be 'free,' and nobody would have to be making any money at all for all the time they put in to compile all of said contents above!

Yes, my 'reversal' does seem sudden. That's because someone is now making money off me, although a paltry sum, I agree. But the fact remains: Nobody makes money off me for nothing AND I think this information should be public knowledge.

This has to be a joke, for the sake of argument I would guess. The fact that you and others read Dr. Sylvan's articles for free before they were premium could easily be construed as you making money off someone else for free. Did you pay anything for that knowledge that Dr. Sylvan spent the time to type up and analyze? Did you not use said knowledge to see what cards have been more heavily played in the past month when you built your deck for a tournament? By doing this, and gaining the knowledge for free, you were in a sense exploiting StarCityGames, and giving them nothing in return.

If you really want to go back to a stone age where no one shares information and insight, why don't you just not read about Type 1 on the Internet? What a novelty that would be. Just take the best decks you can make up, and then play them against each other in a vacuum.

[Methuselahn]

Yes JACO, that is what I said.  My team board is far more helpful to me than anything on SCG.  Our wonderful board doesn't have the articles that you may be thinking of, probably because of the size of the audience.  But instead of reading about the latest whatever, we are testing, developing, and talking about said decks with complete openness, including latest tech.  We don't have live coverage, the need for that isn't on the top of the list of priorities.  Yes we have tons of articles by Zvi, Flores, and Ellis.     Also, unfortunately for you, it is not a public board, so you don't get to join.

To address your second point, yes, I think I have been paying for the articles, previously, in the best non-monetary way possible;  I've been providing Top 8 lists and announcements from my area in the past, thus contributing to Sylvan's stats DIRECTLY.  So no, I was not ripping off anybody, I was actually contributing.

Not share information on the net??  Oh man, if everyone did this, it would be the perfect ideal.  You would get to play against a wide array of decks and not a sea of net-deckers.  Think of the fun.  Playing in a vacuum is a nonsensical outcome.  At least in my area, Vintage has always been played, even before it exploded.

Sure, I could get an account, but I have no desire or obligation to do so.  My biggest worry is that the sample size for Philip's work will be even smaller than it is right now.  I would deduce that the information would be further skewed and actually work against the natural evolution of the all-important 'general meta' and reflection of what is actually strong/popular.  Wouldn't you agree?

[MixedkNuts]

Look folks - in spite of the fact that Methu seems a bit donkish about all of this, and in spite of the fact that THIS QUOTE "Yes we have tons of articles by Zvi, Flores, and Ellis" makes it looks like they are stealing content from somewhere and reposting it to their private forums (because I'm quite certain that you don't have permission to reprint any of that info from the original websites or the authors - nice "principled stand" you are taking) - it is ENTIRELY his prerogative to not type up decklists.  Typing lists is a pain in the ass, and I'm sure the community values the service you have previously given, in spite of the fact that you are no longer choosing to do so.

As for Pip's info, we went Premium because it was necessary to do so.  (This is where I wave the little flag and say "Hi, you might not have noticed, but we're a business.") In spite of all of our years of community service where we provided thousands upon thousands of free articles to Magic players, there finally came a point where we needed to add a subscription model to our website to continue improving, and that's exactly what we have done.  SCG added Premium and improved and will continue doing so.  BUT, our transition to Premium deprived you of some important content that you felt you contributed to.  I'm sorry for that.

The thing that is galling to me about all of this is that you keep speaking of altruism and how all of this metagame info is community information on one hand, and yet you keep crying "I won't be exploited!  I have to look out for myself!" on the other.

Sorry slick, but it doesn't work both ways.  

Your decklists ARE valuable to the community and they ARE available for the community to use when posted here on TMD and I'm sure kudos are avilable for such things.  However, when you do that, they are also available to be tallied and posted into a Premium article on SCG.com where people who consider SCG valuable enough have subscribed, and can thus read the article.   So there's your choice - give the community and SCG subscribers a nice boon, or don't.  

Or I guess you could go a third route and charge for your decklist typing services, thus creating Methusalahn Premium...

--TK