A Question for All My Peeps in The Struggle

[Saucemaster]

So... at the urging of The Man (a.k.a El Kanoot) I'm going to try to start writing for SCG with some sort of frequency.  It has been suggested that what Vintage is currently lacking are decent deck articles (primers), dissecting card choices, play issues, sideboarding, and matchups.  I agree; if I wasn't on a team that regularly tests and didn't constantly read TMD, I'd probably have only a vague and probably ill-formed idea of what the various decks' positions are in the format.  So, for everybody: what decks do you think it would be most helpful to see covered?  What would do the most good right now, particularly in light of the recent restrictions?  I'd love to hear everyone's input.

[Triple_S]

Personally I would like to see the three "best" combo decks (MeanDeath, TPS, Belcher) re-examined in a post restriction light.

[Lou]

I know they are out there and all people have to do is look, but updated primers for all the top decks sounds like a great idea.  It makes it that much easier to have some of your friends who are interested in Type 1 read a primer on the top decks, get a feel for the decks that are out there, learn the older cards that the new players aren't familiar with, and just get a feel for what Type 1 is all about.  I think keeping it to the decks that generally top 8 and decks that the community feels are strong would be a great place to start.

[Necrologia]

I'm going to second Triple_S. I love combo, and I'd like to see more people playing it well. I'm sick of watching people throw games away when they tutor for the wrong thing, Duress at the wrong time, etc.

This is especially true as combo has manged to turn into a budget deck with the advent of 10 proxy tournies. While all decks run power, non-dragon combo is really the only major archetype that lacks an expensive 4 of. Long doesn't even run duals or Forces for goodness sake.

[Revvik]

Echoed on the combo decks, since many of them are going to have an easier time, and can even undergo complete changes from what they used to be when Trini was around.

As far as updating primers goes, there's a few that would be entirely new information for a lot of the players out there, specifically in the aggro-control archetype.  There's a lot of information to digest in each potential decklist.
Madness, for instance, can get a facelift, and probably fill the first couple articles you're going to write (I'm not saying Madness should be your first choice though.  Personally, I'd go with ReapLace, out of spite).

This is great, it even shows people outside the format that there's far more diversity on what can be played than Control Slaver, $t4kS, and Oath.

I had a lot more to say here, but I am not in favor of typing things twice, and my browser does this irritating thing of randomly jumping back pages, erasing any work I have done say, here, or on eBay, or online tax returns.

Dammit.

Good to hear that you're writing more, Saucemaster.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I'd also like to see more about combo. As Knut said, nobody really knows how to play these decks. With control it's easier to play just thinking a couple of steps ahead, but with combo it's so demanding that people would really benefit from someone laying out more information about specific situations, sideboarding, resource management, anything.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[49 Cents]

Hey,

Thank you! I really would like to see more articles, and what I would like to see the most would be some articles about decks that don't come up that much, or not anymore.

Decks like:

- Leviat: Because it is really fun and really not that bad of a deck. I also wanna see a topic about it in the Open Forum.

- Non-standard Workshop Decks: Like Tinker.dec and that deck with masks in it. They are really fun to play

- Dragon.dec: Because it really isnt that bad of a choice nowdays.

And (Ok, it IS regular) Control Slaver: What is the best build, why doesnt it run Pentavus, Is Deep Anal such a good card, could the deck run Deep Anal, TfK AND Ak's? This kind of things. (Note: This aren't questions, just ideas)

Greetz,

Hugo

[Jacob Orlove]

I'd like to see some more matchup analysis articles. A lot of Smmenen's old combo primers are still totally fine, but there's basically nothing written on the intricacies of most matchups (except on our boards).

[Kowal]

Consider me a vote for anything that isn't combo.

[dicemanx]

Sounds like a great idea, although the timing might be bad. Now that Trinisphere is going away, there will be quite a few match-ups that will have to be re-examined and many new decks will enter the fray. Any discussion at this point would have to be based more on theory and speculation than actual tournament data.

I was considering doing a piece on WGD at some point, as it has become more and more apparent to me that this is more than just a metagame deck that dies once the hate (whether incidental or not) rises. However, without Trinisphere to worry about, it would be difficult to assess the match-ups because players won't have to hedge against Workshop as much anymore and as a result have more SB slots available.

[Kasuras]

Some of you might remember that article written by Smmenen at the end of spring 2004: how Psychatog versus Belcher should be played. Although he was dead wrong about saying that those 2 decks were probably be going to be the most played decks on GenCon, it still was an article type I enjoyed.

This kind of article is in my opinion key in primers since people will see how to play the deck, as where I think lots of people just read primers, test the decks on MWS and.. basically just get lost and forget about it.

The problem with this kind of part in a primer is that it takes the writer lots of time to learn the deck, since he must know it perfect but also takes quite some time in setting it up.

For decks, I'd like to see another view at Belcher now that Trinisphere is restricted.

[Saucemaster]

Sounds like a great idea, although the timing might be bad. Now that Trinisphere is going away, there will be quite a few match-ups that will have to be re-examined and many new decks will enter the fray. Any discussion at this point would have to be based more on theory and speculation than actual tournament data.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing.  The combo decks, in particular, will be changing with the restriction of Trinisphere, and it seems to me that writing about them at this point will either a) require the release of tech in development, or b) be hopelessly out of date.  I'll probably try to get around to them, but I'll also probably wait until the dust has settled a little bit and we can all start to see the new shape of the format.

For that reason, I'll probably stick to a deck that is fairly well-understood and relatively important in the metagame, at least in the beginning.  Or, matchup analysis might be the way to go, as Jacob has suggested.

Peter, a new article on Dragon and its place in the metagame, coming from you, would be amazing.  I really hope we see one.  And to people like Peter, or Rich Shay, or others who have been incredibly influential or even fundamental in the development of a deck, rest assured that if I were planning on writing about such a deck, I'd let you know before writing anything.  If for no other reason that to seek out the opinions of the experts, and also to avoid writing about the deck if one of you has something in the works.

[Klep]

Something I would like to see, as this has always been something I've had problems with, is something about how to sideboard with combo decks.  It's one thing to say "Well, such and such cards go in in this matchup, and these others are also good to have in the board," but what often is not mentioned is the equally important aspect of what to take out for the cards you are bringing in.  

   With other kinds of decks, it's generally much easier to determine what cards are good to take out in a given matchup, as most other decks have at least a couple cards that will be dead, or at least substantially weaker compared to cards in the board.  Combo maindecks, however, tend to be a LOT tighter, with maybe 1 card that could safely be called dead in some matchups.  This makes it a lot more difficult to figure out what is safe to take out and what isn't, and I'd like to see some discussion about this.  I know you could do it too saucy, you somehow managed to do well with SX

[JuJu]

I'd like to see an article on why decks stopped using Cunning Wish toolboxes and why they're just running disruption with a win conidition, most of these decks are usually Control, if you can examine the differences it'd be great.

Also, matchup analysis with Combo vs other decks, I ask for this basically to know how to sideboard versus combo.

I second Peter on the other hand though, that although primers and deck analysis are needed, right now there's going to be a surge of new decks. You should probably wait a couple of large tourney's until you do write something.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

In light of the recent restriction, $T4KS seems like the bestest starting point ever. If we want a way to assess the effect of restricting trinisphere, we need to start with an analysis of what is going to supplant it in terms of archetype. Workshop aggro will probably be on the decline, but prison was around for a while before trinisphere.

[Sarcasmic]

I'd like to add in another vote for articles about combo.  I'm a horrible player (and a horrible poster), but I loves me some combo.  Something about TPS, Long, and Meandeck Tendrils embodies everything I like about the format.  Singletons, massive power, and the mathematical elegance of going off.  But I digress.

I would like to learn how to play these decks better.  I don't have access to a regular group of players (just a local shop in Tustin, but I don't really know anyone there), so I don't have the benefit of testing available to me.  I'd like to see general guidelines and principles to follow when playing these decks, as well as specific hands as examples (in both of these respects, the Meandeck Tendrils article was exactly what I'm looking for).

Help me actually be good at the decks I enjoy  

edit: Klep is right on in his request for sideboard info.  Apart from having no clue how to play TPS, I have no clue how to sideboard.

[Disburden]

Personally, I think the only primers we have been seeing are on combo. Recently Meandeath, Meandeck tendrils, TPS, DOOMSDAY, all these decks come to mind when thinking of recent primer articles. Don't get me wrong, I like combo, I play DR4GON quite a bit.

But it'd be nice to see a new deck Aggro primer  

[Methuselahn]

Perhaps you could reanimate Kevin Cron's old Mana Drain article and go over play strategy, using mana drain, how not to walk into it and everything else that's changed since then that applies.

[Freelancer]

I find it very difficult to mulligan properly with combo decks...So my vote goes to mulligan with [insert combo deck here] properly...What makes a good hand? do you mull 1 land-brainstorm hands? what if you are drawing does this make a difference? Do you mull a hand that wins turn 2 but looses horribly to fow? etc.

IMHO mulliganing is probably the hardest part off magic to do properly, and there aren't to many articles about proper mulliganing for individual decks...(wich is not suprising considering the needed experience/testing)

A update on a certain deck is probably not feasible since the format is changing at the moment...However for a article about mulliganing you can take a standard build (maybe make some tweaks) start testing and work from there...
A changing format shouldn't change mulliganing decesions to much especially for combo decks since they have a set amount off cards they need to worry about (force-drain-sphere etc.)...


Ps. A primer about UG madness (control) [budget] is probably stressing it right?

[Lucentspirit]

I told Smmenen I would write a primer on Belcher after going top 4 at GenCon. I ended up not doing it due to the lack of personal time and the fact people's interest in the deck faded. In light of the restrictiom of 3sphere, belcher has a new breath of life. Given the fact some people might actually be interested in reading a card/strategy analysis, I will try and post something in the next few weeks (yay for spring break).
 
       3sphere was the only card that ever really held back belcher due to the fact that land grant can be played for free under sphere of resistance and null rod requires two turns to come into play. A good counter wall can beat belcher, but mostly it comes down to topdecking and play skill.

          Sidebording vs belcher is different then sidebording vs tendrils. The decks are similar, but require different bullets to kill (ie. Sphere of resistence vs. damping matrix, chalice vs. null rod). I think the post restriction meta will likely see a boost in tendrils builds being played, and with it tendrils sideboard hate. It will be interesting to see how the meta reacts and if belcher may become prominent post 3sphere's restriction.

[Vegeta2711]

due to the fact that land grant can be played for free under sphere of resistance

Off-topic, but you do realize this is completely wrong right? :<

On-Topic, thanks for starting this topic Saucy, it gives me a chance to comb it for ideas as well.  :lol: I agree on the lack of primers, though if if you think you could do a good article on mulligans (even if it's only for 2-3 decks and not completely general) that would be awesome.

[Lucentspirit]

Edited for being wrong: My mistake, thank you for looking it up Jacob

[JuJu]

It does affect it, that's why Stax totally owned GAT when GAT couldn't cast FoW or Misd.

[ChaosTheory]

Since i'm almost exclusively a combo player, I'm going to say both Sideboarding with combo and mulliganing with combo.
Also, what a good sideboard for [enter combo deck here] would be in certain metas.

I would love to see, as well as even participate in a primer on Doomsday, due to the fact that I have been playing the deck for a few months now, but just can't figure out the best sideboard for certain metas yet.

Strategy on innovation in deckbuilding would also be really good.

[Jacob Orlove]

Sphere of resistence doesn't effect alternate casting costs like 3sphere does.    3sphere says spells require a minimun of 3 to play while sphere of resistance  says add 1 to the casting cost. Cards like force of will and land grant read do (insert text) INSTEAD of paying the casting cost. They do get a casting cost of +1 but it is irrelivent if you use the alternate casting cost.

First of all, from the comprehensive rules:
409.1f: The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect. (Rules Version Date: February 1, 2005. See http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules)

Second, the ONLY way you can change the casting cost of a card is through copy effects (eg Clone). Effects that change the cost to play a card DO NOT change its casting cost in any way.

[Fall-Titan]

For the sake of not repeating one of the already stated ideas that i agree with i think it would be a cool idea if you gave some of your ideas on new deck types or twists on already existant decks and allowed us to tweak them to a possible decent deck. Very few people are willing to give away there super secret deck ideas so if you kinda gave us a small peak into the world of one of the better teams in magic and their deck building strategeries (cut on bush) i think it would help the vintage community on the whole.

[jeremy_78]

I think, writing more about sideboarding with specific decks in mind would be beneficial, since certain decks are so tightly maindecks its hard to take out crucial components (i.e. tog, dragon).

[MrZuccinniHead]

i'll cast my vote on the "lack of primers" issue.

[Smmenen]

What primer's do people want to see though?

[nataz]

What primer's do people want to see though?

A gifts ungiven primer