[Discussion] Leviat.dec

[49 Cents]

Hey,

I've been testing Leviat for a while now and I really think it's a medium good deck, with pretty good matchups.
I saw that Koen vd Hulst finished 3rd with the deck in Eindhoven a while ago, which has to prove that the deck is rather good.

The list Leviat created is really, really cool, and the deck is just real fun to play.
A thing that makes it pretty strong to is that it doesn't matter if your enchantments are destroyed (disenchant-style), because you can easily play a replenish and grab them again.
And it doesn't matter if your first Replenish gets counterd, because with the decks insane draw-engine you will easily draw another.
Well, enough of this.

I saw the original decklist from Leviat, and the decklist Nico vd Hoeven piloted to first place at the last tourney in Castricum.

What do you think? Thirst for Knowledge over Study?
Pro's:
-   It gets you to keep 1 or 2 cards,
-   You can trow away a useless artifact (lategame),
-   You can easily play a Chalice for 1 because you don't run Study.
Cons:
-   It costs 3 mana.

And how do you think the SB should be done? As you can see both SB's seem kinda different. Nico says that his SB was the worst he had EVER played, so that kinda says something

He also plays two more Maindeck enchantments: Bargain and Humility. In my testings those cards were just great, Humility stops welderdecks (No Welders, no Fatties) and quick aggrodecks, and bargain is INSANE with Form of the Dragon. I would say: They're keepers.

Bruce Lee - Enter the Dragon Leviat (June 15th, 2004)
A product of Team Fringe.

Combo - 7
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Replenish

Search / Tutor - 11
4 Intuiton
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Careful Study

Draw - 6
4 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

Control - 8
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Utility - 4
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Time Walk

Mana - 24
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Aura of Silence
3 Exalted Angel
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zurs Weirding
1 Future Sight
1 Disenchant

Nico's List:

Maindeck: 60
4 Replenish
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Humility

1 Balance
4 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard: 15
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Exalted Angel
2 Sacred Ground
3 Seal of Cleansing

Greetz,

Hugo

Edit: Added a Link..
Edit 2: Black Lotus was listed Twice, thanks
Edit 3: The list wasnt right and I forgot 2 cards, so I posted Nico's whole list.[/b]

[TheAlpha]

I would play the TFK's. Careful Study still is card disadvantage and it's only good when you have 2 of the enchantments in hand. You mentioned the cost of 3 mana as a con, I don't think 3 mana is that much for this deck, as you just drain into it.

For the SB: I don't think Nico's board is that bad. I think the whole problem is boarding cards out, a lot of cards just have to stay in the MD. Say you play against some aggro deck and you want to board in both the 3 STP's and the Exalted Angels, looking at the list, I have no clue which 6 ( ! ) cards I should board out and I guess that also was Nico's problem.

-TheAlpha

[GMontag]

Mana Drain + Bazaar seems like they would interfere with each other. You have to choose between getting your draw engine and your counters online. Have you considered replacing the Drains with Circular Logics?

[Flopmeister]

Mana Drain + Bazaar seems like they would interfere with each other. You have to choose between getting your draw engine and your counters online. Have you considered replacing the Drains with Circular Logics?

Considering that, you could also argue about LOA being subpar in this deck. With the exception of having Squees in you GY, Bazaar is carddisadvantage. It not being blue also doesn't help. I'd cut it for either another land, or a TFK

Circular Logic seems like a good replacement for Mana Drain indeed.

P.S. Hugo, is that why you need my bazaars ?

[Pyromaniac]

I've been playing the deck a lot lately and I can assure you that drain and bazaar are usually not in each other's way. at least not in my testing. Bazaar generally generates so much card advantage (you're running DA's too) that your opponent will generally try and slow that down first.

I haven't come round to playing the deck in really big tourneys yet, I might take it to the next Eindhoven if I feel like it (no more 3sphere ). I still to figure out what the best strategy vs combo decks is gonna be.

[49 Cents]

Circular Logic seems like a good replacement for Mana Drain indeed.

You forgot about 2 things Floris:
- Drain is IMPORTANT in this deck. You really need the mana to feed all kinds of thing: Intuition, TfK, Analysis, Replenish, Etc. It's almost like part-of-the-engine. I dont think that cutting drain would be very clever.
- Drain maybe costs UU, but 2U can also be a problem (no moxen hooray, Turn 3 Online) and even if you can cast it turn 1/2, in Turn 1 your Gy will not be full and turn 2 there also will not be that many cards in it. If you play Study you CAN try it though.

P.S. Hugo, is that why you need my bazaars ?

Hell Yeah !  

For the SB: I don't think Nico's board is that bad. I think the whole problem is boarding cards out, a lot of cards just have to stay in the MD. Say you play against some aggro deck and you want to board in both the 3 STP's and the Exalted Angels, looking at the list, I have no clue which 6 ( ! ) cards I should board out and I guess that also was Nico's problem.

You have a point there. Most of the time I board out random cards (Like Mystical, against aggro a replenish, FoF, etc), But it really is a problem.

Thanks all!

Greetz,

Hugo

[IHESM]

Hi,

If you look at "my" list, and Koen's list, you will notice that they're exactly the same, with the exception of Crypt for Lotus, and 5th Island for Tundra (because I decided to play the deck the day before the tournament, and Pyroman didn't have a 4th Tundra or a Lotus for me), and the SB. So, I basicly just netdecked Koen.

IMO, Study is bad because it's a sorcery and it's card disadvantage..., sure, Thirst is 3 mana, but hey, you have got drains and artifact mana for that .

Drains with Bazaar/Loa might LOOK bad, but it's good enough. Not being able to counter with a drain, is probably the same problem you will have when playing Logic (for it's alternative cost, because 3cc counters with no pro's are horrible)

And yes, the sideboard I played is still horrible imo, but, as I mentioned before, that's because I decided to play the day before the tournament, and didn't have anything better to put in it (and well..no playtesting at all..)

Nico.

[GMontag]

Circular Logic seems like a good replacement for Mana Drain indeed.

You forgot about 2 things Floris:
- Drain is IMPORTANT in this deck. You really need the mana to feed all kinds of thing: Intuition, TfK, Analysis, Replenish, Etc. It's almost like part-of-the-engine. I dont think that cutting drain would be very clever.
- Drain maybe costs UU, but 2U can also be a problem (no moxen hooray, Turn 3 Online) and even if you can cast it turn 1/2, in Turn 1 your Gy will not be full and turn 2 there also will not be that many cards in it. If you play Study you CAN try it though.

2U? Why would you be hardcasting it? Turn 1 Bazaar followed by turn 2 fetch (which happens a fair amount of time) means your Logics are online turn 2 for 3 mana, which is probably a hard counter that early. Mana Drain and Bazaar can be online turn 3 at the earliest, unless you luck out and draw your Lotus or Sapphire. I can see your point about needing the Drain mana though. I was going off my experience on playing a similar deck, but that deck didn't play TfK or DA, and it used Zombie Infestation for the kill rather than Replenish, so as a whole it was quite a bit less mana-intensive.

Other thoughts, why do you need 2 Form of the Dragons? It seems like that slot would be better used for your 4th Squee to help Bazaar/Careful Study/TfK become card advantage earlier and more often.

[rvs]

For people in Binghampton: This deck draws 7 cards a turn vs the Craziest of Carls. Just ask him

[Flopmeister]

Seeing how so called tier one decks are dependant on first turns setup for the kill, how will you be spending your first turn (defending or setting up yourself)?

wouldn't the addition of Duress be valuable, having a first turn play that disrupts your opponent, so you can "last" until turn two and have mana drain backup, or FoW to support your gameplan? I realize this would be a big reorganisation for your manabase, but I really think it's a strong option.

Maybe a core of must-have cards can be created, so we can optimise the decklist further?

[49 Cents]

Wouldn't the addition of Duress be valuable, having a first turn play that disrupts your opponent, so you can "last" until turn two and have mana drain backup, or FoW to support your gameplan? I realize this would be a big reorganisation for your manabase, but I really think it's a strong option.

You could try that, But i would stay away from a Splash. A big advantage of the deck is that is runs 6 basic lands, and with a splash this would only be 2/3 (and you might have to play an extra fetch too..) And you would have to cut really good cards for Duress, which, to me, seems a no-go.

Maybe a core of must-have cards can be created, so we can optimise the decklist further?

Hmm, Ok. But I think there are to many cards in there.. I'll do that Later..

Just my 49 Cents..

Greetz,

Hugo

[49 Cents]

4 Replenish
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Solitary Confinement

4 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Something like this I guess..

[Pyromaniac]

You might want to add Bazaar and Yawgmoth's Bargain to that core. After trying it myself when Koen showed it to me, I'd probably NEVER cut it from the deck, just because it automatically wins when it comes into play.

[IHESM]

4 Replenish
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Humility
4 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

I agree with Pyro, Bargain is insane... and Bazaar is still the main engine (why would you add Squee to the "must-haves", and not Bazaar?)

I'd add Humility and Fact to "the core" myself. Humility is just like Bargain, it wins you random games and you can cast it without a Lotus. Fact or Fiction is good enough, if you compare it with Thirst.

[Thug]

First of all this deck is amazingly fun to play,
I had seen Pyro and some others play with the deck but never really saw a list so I made my own.

--

Bargain absolutely has to be in there, as already said by other dutchies, its very very hard to lose a game in which it made it into play.
Very often one of the targets of my first intuition was bargain just to turn every Replenish into an "I Win" card.
As nico said, Humility is almost as good as Bargain, and I can second this statement. With all the Welders around this card is amazing and at 2WW your hardcasting it more than you would think.

--

Bazaar/LoA and Drains should be a problem because you hand should give you enough information on what route you want to take.

Just keep in mind that you dont have to play that Bazaar early on, you might as well keep it back a little longer.

--

The hard part about this deck is creating spots. In my version there was no room for

Squee #4
Seal of Cleansing / Aura of Silence
Fact or Fiction
DA #4
Maindeck Sacred Ground

--

Another thing is the deck gets destroyed by Tormods Crypt, when I played the deck I lost every game my opponent played a Crypt I couldnt counter.
Stifles help a little, but is isnt enough.

I tried Tinker/Colossus as a transformational sideboard but never really made use of it. Still I think some creatures have to be in the sideboard to deal with hate.

Koen

[policehq]

Regarding Bazaar of Baghdad + Mana Drain, in the few games I've run the deck, I've found it nice to sit back with blue mana, casting EOT instants to draw cards/fill up the graveyard, then after a Mana Drain playing Bazaar, draw, dump 3 enchantments into graveyard, then Replenish.

Is this how anyone else plays the deck?

Barry

EDIT: And the deck could use the same Sideboard tech in Chalice of the Void and/or Null Rod that Dragon uses to fight Tormod's Crypt.

[jeremy_78]

This looks like a really fun deck that can take ppl by suprise.  Plus its funny to think a deck uses both drains and bazaars.  This may be me just being stupid, because I haven't tested the deck yet, but would fastbond be benificial.  I know you would have to splash green, but most of the time you could replenish it back.  Plus with green you can use another good enchantment in ground seal.  I should probably play the deck first before suggesting this.

[Flopmeister]

In my view the addition of Black would be more essential, giving you a very powerful first turn play with Duress and VT. Has anyone tested this? At this moment i lack the time to playtest, but the deck seems a real blast to play.

[gnomehunter]

This might seem like a strange suggestion but have you ever tryed Illusions of Grandeur and donate in the deck.
You don't seem to have any shortage of mana and an end of turn intition droping an Illusions and seal in the grave could equal a next turn win not to mention you alread have the bargain.  A dream halls and a bargain with the level of draw you have could also equal "I win".

Those are just some fun suggestions. Any chance you could give me an idea of what match ups give you trouble.

[serracollector]

Everyone is suggesting adding black or green for tutors/fastbond, why not same color search or enchantment search/protection in Enlightened Tutor (would be almost as good as VT) and Sterling Grove (protection, colorless searcher, and can be replenished).  Also, just curious, with the 4 Intuition, why TFK over just the old fashioned AK engine?  True you can discard to the TFK, but AK engine draws faster, cheaper, and with 4 bazaar and 4 Intuition you should be able to get stuff into your grave asap anyways I would imagine.  Also, do not forget about the enchantment Attunement, costs the same as TFK, is reusable, and definitely gets stuff in the grave, also Replenishable and pitches to FOW.  Just my 2 cents.

SC

[PemsAura]

The deck certainly does look like fun to play.  It also seems to be extremely focused on the enchantment theme (obviously since it runs replenish).  I wonder though, if with such a focus on the enchantment theme, wouldn't it be a good idea to run the back up of maybe taking tinker from the board and colossus for an alternate kill route?

[Godder]

Everyone is suggesting adding black or green for tutors/fastbond, why not same color search or enchantment search/protection in Enlightened Tutor (would be almost as good as VT) and Sterling Grove (protection, colorless searcher, and can be replenished).  Also, just curious, with the 4 Intuition, why TFK over just the old fashioned AK engine?  True you can discard to the TFK, but AK engine draws faster, cheaper, and with 4 bazaar and 4 Intuition you should be able to get stuff into your grave asap anyways I would imagine.  Also, do not forget about the enchantment Attunement, costs the same as TFK, is reusable, and definitely gets stuff in the grave, also Replenishable and pitches to FOW.  Just my 2 cents.

I could be wrong, but my take with Replenish decks is that Intuition for enchantments -> Replenish is much stronger than Intuition -> AK. Other targets include Replenish itself, Bazaar (if a discard outlet is needed), FoW if you're desperate, and so on. Replenish generates such massive card advantage, especially if Bargain hits, that AK is superfluous. Perhaps Pandemonium, Saproling Burst and Yawgmoth's Bargain . Die or Bargain...

[cssamerican]

Has anyone thought about using [card]Pulse of the Grid[/card] in here? Its optional requirement in this deck seems as if it would be easier to meet than Thirst for Knowledge’s, and its return to hand effect seems like it could be a pretty decent effect since the deck has trouble finding space. This could possibly allow you to drop the count to two which frees up another slot in the deck.

Another possible sideboard card to deal with graveyard hate could be Meddling Mage. The casting cost shouldn't be a problem for this deck, and no one will be bringing in creature removal game 2. With some combination of Mages and Rods you should be able to handle graveyard hate.

[jeremy_78]

You dont really need mages and null rod.  The chalices are there to help against graveyard removal.  Crypt is probably the biggest nusance that the deck will see.  Ground seal shouldnt be a problem since the deck doesn't really target anything in the graveyard.

[Pyromaniac]

You can also cast Solitary Confinement first, then dump the rest and Replenish. This way you can't be Crypted. Mages aren't really good if you're running maindeck Humility as well and one of the big strengths of this deck is the artifact mana, so you can Intuition/TfK faster, which is important. Therefore running Null Rod is a very bad play I think.

Serra: I'll try an Attunement in the deck, but I doubt it'll be better then TfK, since it can't generate card advantage on itself. Squee might make it better then I think. It might be annoying it's not an instant though.

I'll put this deck back together when I stop fiddling around with 3CC and give it another run. The deck's pretty solid as it is though.

[49 Cents]

Everyone is suggesting adding black or green for tutors/fastbond, why not same color search or enchantment search/protection in Enlightened Tutor (would be almost as good as VT) and Sterling Grove (protection, colorless searcher, and can be replenished).

Why the enlightened? What enchantment do you want to Hardcast? Sure, you can hardcast Confinement or Humility, but you can also, for the same amount of mana (or one more) search/play replenish and get more Enchantments. Also, I took Grove in mind, but there almost isnt any enchantment hate around so it would be more like Slot-waste.

Also, just curious, with the 4 Intuition, why TFK over just the old fashioned AK engine?  True you can discard to the TFK, but AK engine draws faster, cheaper, and with 4 bazaar and 4 Intuition you should be able to get stuff into your grave asap anyways I would imagine.

Because, what somebody said a few posts ago, You will almost never trow a Intuition searching 3 AK's. In a Control Mirror, You'll be more likely to search for 3 Deep Analysis or something, because it draws more, and if you have a bazaar You will search for 3 Squee's, etc.

Also, do not forget about the enchantment Attunement, costs the same as TFK, is reusable, and definitely gets stuff in the grave, also Replenishable and pitches to FOW.

Yes, but TFK gives Cardadvantage. Attunement also isnt an Instant, which is a bitch, and its only g00d with a few Squee's.. But it might be an anwser against a lot of Wastelands, like a 5th Bazaar..

Meddling Mage and Null rod both dont sound that good, Because you simply dont need Mage and Null Rod eliminates like all your good mana-accel0rz..

At the moment I'm trying a Decree of Silence in this deck (minus the FoF), and I must say it works pretty well..

Thanks all, I saw some great comments..

Greetz,

Hugo

Edit: Some Lay-Out bitching..

[Godder]

Enlightened Tutor -> Humility or Solitary Confinement isn't bad vs some decks, and Enlightened Tutor can also put Bargain on top of the library prior to a TfK or Bazaar activation, which isn't a bad thing. If you're using it, it can also fetch an Attunement.

As a slot, that's not too bad for utility, but if competition for space is fierce, I could see it being cut...

[49 Cents]

Enlightened Tutor -> Humility or Solitary Confinement isn't bad vs some decks, and Enlightened Tutor can also put Bargain on top of the library prior to a TfK or Bazaar activation, which isn't a bad thing. If you're using it, it can also fetch an Attunement.

As a slot, that's not too bad for utility, but if competition for space is fierce, I could see it being cut...

Well, it could work, but Its like what you say: I think there are simply better cards you can play. At the moment I'm testing all these (in 1 deck):

2 Form of the Dragon
1 Humility
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Attunement - Not really sure yet..
1 Decree of Silence - Which is just very good, Against decks that might have an anwser. If their next 3 spells are countered, you win, guaranteed.

I've cutted Balance and Mystical Tutor for these two..

I'm also trying a version with B at the moment, which runs Demonic, Vampiric, Will (!!!!!) and some SB slots. Im not really sure about this, but it seems a little worse then the U/W version.. But Will is REALLY good..
Im not playing Duress because there just isnt any room for it in the deck.

Greetz,

Hugo

[Pyromaniac]

The only black card I'd run in the deck, other then Bargain, would be Demonic and maybe 1-2 Duress. Will is overkill, since you're probably winning anyway then, you need to concentrate on resolving Replenish. You don't need to resolve a Will to win, resolving Replenish seems to be better.

Someone mentioned Boseji, the weird land, to help make this happen and it might  be ok to run as a 1-of, but you want to run Demonic then as well so you're able to find it faster.

[49 Cents]

The only black card I'd run in the deck, other then Bargain, would be Demonic and maybe 1-2 Duress. Will is overkill, since you're probably winning anyway then, you need to concentrate on resolving Replenish. You don't need to resolve a Will to win, resolving Replenish seems to be better.

Someone mentioned Boseji, the weird land, to help make this happen and it might  be ok to run as a 1-of, but you want to run Demonic then as well so you're able to find it faster.

Hmm, I think You're right, But I think I'm gonna stick with the U/W version.

We could give Boseji a try, it does help with replenish and Intuition and stuff. Maybe instead of the Loa? Because LoA just isnt that good. The only time it is good you have bazaar and squee and then you're already winning. I'm gonna test this and post the results later.

Greetz,

Hugo