[Discussion] Creating the Ideal Aggro-Control Deck

[Ripcord728]

With Trinisphere gone, I think Aggro-Control can make a serious comeback.  Obviously this comeback has already begun, with decks like Bird Sh*t and Fish popping up again.  I don't want to spend time explaining why Aggro-Control is ideal for the post March 20 metagame - let's just say that its bad matchups are non-existant (straight Aggro such as Sligh or Stompy, or Trinisphere-based artifact lock decks) and its good matchups are all over the place (namely, Control and Combo).

So let's get right down to the meat of this post, which is creating the ideal Aggro-Control deck.  The components are as follows:

1) Card Advantage
2) Disruption
3) Creatures

***

1.  Card Advantage.

Bazaar of Baghdad is a potent card.  Combined with the right counterparts, it can read as a zero-casting cost outlet for things like Basking Rootwalla, Arrogant Wurm, Deep Analysis, the occasional Roar of the Wurm, and Welder removal (Lava Dart/Fiery Temper).  Squee, of course, goes along well with BoB.  

Another option is to go the Phid rout.  Ophidian itself is a bit slow for Aggro-Control, as it doesn't start gaining card advantage until turn four (or three, with a Mox).  But there's a newer, stronger Phid, called Ninja of the Deep Hours.  This guy gets beating and drawing as early as turn two, with the drawback of having to employ a variety of one-drops in order to use it.  If you're going to use one-drops, Curiosity isn't a bad way to start the card drawing on turn two either.  Note, however, that Ninja and Curiosity have poor synergy together, as a Curious one-drop will lose its Curiosity if it gets exchanged for a Ninja of the Deep Hours.  Nevertheless, both/either belong in a deck with an adequate supply of cheap creatures.  Another option is Mask of Memory, but it's slow and gets shut down by Null Rod (should you choose to use it).

Standstill has been used as the primary card advantage winner in Fish for a while, and rightfully so.  Like Bazaar of Baghdad, this card pretty much forces you to design the deck around it.  (Turn one Flying Men and turn two Standstill is mediocre, but turn one Flying Men and turn two Mishra's Factory and Standstill with another manland or Decree of Justice coming up is great.

An option that hasn't been utelized in the past (and most likely rightfully so, but I'm just throwing it out there for discussion) is Mystic Remora.  In a Stompy-type deck, with a bunch of fat one-drops, MR can be pretty hot.  Example: Turn one Skyshroud Elite, turn two Ghazban Ogre and Mystic Remora.  Now you can go another turn or two (or three, depending whether you draw more mana) with your opponent either forced to sit there and take the beats while you continue to overextend, or forced to give you back a card on every spell he plays.

2.  Disruption

The disruption really is crucial to the deck, as it's the reason aggro won't scoop to Control or Combo of any sort.  That being said, I think that Force of Will is so far above the other potential pieces of disruption that this "Ideal Aggro-Combo deck" MUST be somewhat blue.  At least sixteen cards would be nice to have consistent FoW fodder, 20 would be even better.  Fortunately, most of the card advantage engines are blue, as is Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and Tinker (with a big artifact thrown into the deck like Darksteel Collossus.  As a side note, I find Tinker not to be worth it, as there is often not a Mox to sacrifice to it, and even if there is, Darksteel Collossus is a dead card sometimes.  And it's not like getting a DC out is game over anyway.)

Other (playable) free counters include Daze, Disrupting Shoal, and Foil.  Foil's terrible, it never gets cast, and when it does, you're losing three-for-one on it.  Disrupting Shoal is nice in theory, but it needs a deck built around it with a great big mana curve.  I've tried this type of deck, and it's pretty bad because of the limited choices in cards you can include.  For instance, as far as three-drops go, I like Phyrexian Negator and Call of the Herd.  But I had to use Serendib Efreet because it's blue.  I had to use Flying Men as my one-drop for the same reason.  Etc.  Daze, however, is pretty cool.  Not as a four-of, however, because it's good all of the time, but often Daze can counter a hot spell like a turn two Thirst for Knowledge or a bomb that was cast with just enough mana.

The next category of disruption are the creatures.  Meddling Mage is very hot, partially because it's blue, but more because it's (as I read in the Bird Sh*t thread elsewhere) an "all-purpose hoser."  In other words, if you're playing against Oath, you've just gotten rid of their biggest card.  If you're playing against Combo, you can throw a serious wrench into the plans by naming Tendrils, or Animate Dead, or whatever it is that may not mean game over, but may make it significantly more likely that you will win.  There is some merit to running a playset of these in the sideboard, as you don't always know what to name in the first game anyway, but I like them maindeck.  Even if you draw them in your opening hand, you may not be going first, and even if you are, you may not be able to cast them right away.  In Vintage, you can tell a lot about what deck a person's playing from their first turn.

Spiketail Hatchling is another possibility.  It lacks the surprise of Daze, and it costs more mana, but it swings and can be pumped up by Curiosity, Rancor, Bonesplitter, etc.  Again, it's blue, which is cool.

There's a whole score of one-drops which have very specialized abilities.  For instance, Grim Lavamancers and Icatian Javalineers are great for removing Welders.  Elvish Scrapper takes out artifacts, Elvish Lyrist takes out Oaths, etc.  The thing with these guys is that you're sacrificing variety for a dude.  Dudes are great, you need them for the kill (once you've got some card advantage and disruption up) and they can be pumped with the aforementioned creature enchantments.  However, you lose versatility with them.  Swords to Plowshares can take out any creature, be it a Platinum Angel or an Akroma or a Welder.  Lavamancer can only take out the latter.  Seal of Cleansing can take out an Oath or a big fat artifact, while with the creatures, its generally one or the other.  There's also the cheapness factor and  the power factor.  Viashino Heretic takes out any artifact while dealing damage to its controller, but it costs three times as much as Gorilla Shaman which can usually only take out Moxen.  Null Rod can stop Moxen along with Slaver, Belcher, Trike, and the like, but its not a beatstick.  Rack and Ruin takes out two artifacts, Naturalize gives you the choice.  Veridian Zealot is a creature but costs twice as much to blow stuff up as Seal of Cleansing does.

Choices, choices, choices.  These decisions are tough to make, which is why I've started a thread to get everybody talking about them.

I used to love Duress.  I've really reconsidered my position on discard, however.  A turn one Duress exchanges one card for one card, but it costs you your first turn.  Late game, Duress can be a dead card completely.  Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist are even worse, by the way.

Red Elemental blast is really maindeck worthy, in my opinion, but only in the right deck.  There are so many blue cards worth countering or destroying (do I really need to list them?  Other than the rare-ish monobrown decks, nearly every deck is packing blue and lots of it) that I once ran a decent deck with 4 REB and 1 Pyroblast maindecked.  The reason that I frown on them now, however, is for the same reason I love Seal of Cleansing and hate Disenchant.  In an Aggro deck, you really can't afford to leave mana open and switch to the control role in the matchup.  With Seal, you tap out to play it once, and then never look back.  This is also the reason I like free spells such as Daze and Abolish.  Abolish really isn't a bad card, but the alternate casting cost just isn't necessary.  For instance, if my opponent casts an Oath, a Platinum Angel, or a whatever, I get to untap and react to it, so Seal of Cleansing is fine.  However, if he casts a Yawgmoth's Will or a spell that will cripple me, I need to counter it then and there, so the alternate casting cost to Daze and Force is much more applicable.

Before leaving the category of disruption, I just want to mention two cards specifically which I happen to think are powerful, versatile, and cheap as well: Root Maze and Tormod's Crypt.  Root Maze stops Dragon, Doomsday and slows TPS and Belcher.  Also, it can't be bounced via Rebuild, if that matters.  Tormod's Crypt is also good against Dragon, as well as anything with Welder, Bird Sh*t, and a bunch of random decks that inevitably require use of the graveyard (Rector, Hermit Druid, Tog, etc)  Whether either of these should be maindecked, boarded, or played at all is up for discussion, but I give them the thumbs up.  Chains of Mephistopheles seems to get a lot of play, and I do think it's good, but it hurts your own card advantage and it costs more than either of the two cards I just named.

3.  Creatures

This should more appropriately be entitled "damage."  This is because many of the best damage dealers aren't actually creatures.  Call of the Herd, for instance, is such a hot beatstick.  3/3 for three is okay, but obviously its flashback is what makes it so sexy.  If they can deal with the first, they generally can't deal with the second.

I love the Hidden creatures.  Hidden Herd is a 3/3 for G, which is great, but late game, they may simply refrain from playing non-basic lands in order to make your Herd useless.  Hidden Guerillas is a 5/3 for G, but against some decks it simply reads "Your opponent cannot cast the three on-color Moxes he uses in his deck."  The same problem applies to it as to Herd, because in the late game, that 6th colored mana source just isn't enough for your opponent to make him want to activate your 5/3.  Hidden Gibbons is my favorite.  It doesn't get activated all the time immediately, as many can hold off playing Brainstorm if they need to (which is a cool thing about Gibbons in itself) but your opponent can't hold of instants in the late game, so it'll always be a 4/4 for G.

I dislike Faerie Conclave and its friends.  Lands that come into play tapped really slow you down.  Mishra's Factory, on the other hand, is cool as long as you're not using too many spells that need all colored mana.  For instance, Factory with Spiketail Hatchling, Standstill, Call of the Herd, Negator, whatever, is cool, but its frustrating to look at a hand of an Underground Sea and Factory along with Meddling Mage, Hymn to Tourach, etc.  Factory does have great synergy with Standstill and/or Mask of Memory, though.  The decks that use Factory are generally the decks that can use off-color Moxen.

Speaking of cards that work well with Standstill, Skyshroud Cutter is a card I've come across recently.  If you're not going hardcore Fish, i.e. Flying Men followed by Factory, Cloud of Faeries, and Standstill, then Skyshroud Cutter can really be a nice thing to drop down with a turn one Mox and Standstill.  I know, I know, it takes you two and half turns to make up for the five life you're donating, but tempo is SO important when it comes to Standstill.  Having that extra 2/2 out can be the difference between letting the opponent waiting it out and forcing the opponent to break it and give you an Ancestral Recall.

Rancor and Bonesplitter really speed up the damage dealing.  Note that both can be constantly re-equipped to a Mishra's Factory each turn.  Also note Bonesplitter gets shut down by Null Rod.

Phyrexian Negator doesn't need any speeding up.  It's a 5/5 for just three mana.  I haven't seen too many Fire/Ice recently, but even so, they don't exactly cripple you if you're casting a Negator on turn three.  Who saves a Fire/Ice for Negator anyway, when it's coming after a Meddling Mage or a pair of Grim Lavamancers?  A potential problem with Negator is its inabilty to trade with artifact fat.  For instance, Call of the Herd and Serendib take out a Juggernaut, but Negator really shouldn't.

Black Vise, anyone?  I don't know what to make of this.  It doesn't do much against anything other than old-school control.  However, in the right matchup, it can do 3 damage a turn starting from when you cast it, as opposed to a creature which needs to wait a turn, or a Hidden Enchantment which must be activated.  Also, it can be played with an off-color Mox, and is great with Standstill.

What about Exalted Angel?  A little slow, possibly, but very good against Aggro.  I don't think there's enough of that to justify using him, unless you're packing Mana Drains.

***

Well, not to say that this covers it, but these are the cards that I've found to be useful.  Feel free to add in suggestions that I've either overlooked or things that you've come across and find to be useful.  

The critical question I'm asking here is as follows: in what combination can the best of these cards be used most effectively?  (Once you've decided on which colors offer the most, you can begin to get started on the mana base.)

[E Face]

My favorite archtype to play since my inception into Magic has always been Aggro Control. WUG to be more specific. Meddling Mage is by far my favorite creature of all time, and in a close second comes Quirion Dryad. You may or may not have listed Dryad in your discussion for various reasons, but I believe he is one of the hottest aggro control creatures out there. I like the Dryads over the Bird Shit style creature base also because I believe that Tormod's Crypts will be returning to a SB near you now that 12 of the 15 slots dedicated to beating Stax and its Unholy Trio are now not as necessary.

One card i disagreed with you on is Null Rod. Null Rods are fantastic, and IMHO are taylor made to be played in this archtype. I was ecstatic when I read about your love for Seal of Cleansing, as I too love the power of this versatile card.

Black Vise is a card that I think was basically "banned by restriction". Its inclusion in most decks is pretty weak without being able to play four now. Also, I think the Standstill route may be turning a little "old school" now, as players have learned to play around it quite efficiently.

Phyrexian Negator probably is falling off a bit right now beause with the big shift in deck that will be taking place, creature control will be more of an issue for decks again. However, his presence in the SB for the control matchup may be something to look into if you decide to run black.

I love the Hidden creatures.

ME TOO.

Props to starting a thread without a decklist, as this will allow plenty of open discussion on Aggro Control  

[AnFgangsta]

Null Rod is some key tech, as is Root Maze (its so good its stupid).

The vise is dead..if you can manage it first turn it CAN be good..but even now its lost some of its power with the speed in which hands are emptied.  

Dryad is definately one of the hottest cretures around, Meddling Mage is great, but not quite as good as claimed to be, if its toughness was higher it would just be crazy, still a good card but a tad overrated at times, but in UWG ofcourse it is a great compliment to the deck.

Im not too keen on Spiketail Hatchling though, I mean it worked in Fish but thats pretty much died out, or atleast evolved into Bird Sh*t, where the Hatchling's inclusion is far from necessity.

All that being said, your theory about disruption, creatures and
Hidden Guerillas is just a silly card..against most decks hes a turn 1 fatty.  However I read someone posting an arguement against Hidden cards in that soemtimes there is no room for them, its good if you can fit it but dont really worry if you cannot.

You mentioned Icatian Javalineers...I must disagree here..sure it can work but I mean why run it over something like Mogg Fanatic, just a great card to take out welders, burn dryads, etc.

Negators are good but it just makes your eyes tear when they hit him with a Lightning Bolt or some other silly card to clear your board. Just make sure hes not the only creature you run (although you did start off talking about UWG I dont know how he got introduced) or else you will pay 99% of the time.

Artifact destruction is key to todays meta, for it not only disrupts mana sources to many decks but also creatures and prisons set up by opposing decks. Heretic is a nice card, however Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Vandal, and Artifact Mutation I favor over it, hes just a little too slow, by the time you can use him, for example you are almost always under tangle wireishness complements of Staxx.

As for free counters, we all are crazy about Force of Will, Daze is just a fun card, and is highly effective.  Foil as you stated is just a waste..some people tend to like Thwart but Ive never really been a fan unless its used in Miracle Gro or something where Gush used to be used, and even then though not too many should be played at all..losing 3 lands is not fun.

[Ripcord728]

What exactly do you mean when you say that people have learned to "play around Standstill?"  The only solution I know of is to wait until the opponent has seven cards in his hand and then pop it at the end of his turn, forcing him to discard down to seven again.  This may take quite a while.

Also, is Quirion Dryad really that good?  To be honest, I haven't played much with him, but I seem to remember it taking a long time to get him big.

I've found that creature removal (namely, Swords to Plowshares) is much better than artifact removal.  What non-creature artifacts are tough for this deck?  Tangle Wire, maybe?  I'd much rather have the option of being able to get rid of a Welder, Akroma, Werebear, Dragon, or whatever comes up then be able to get rid of the occasional prison artifact.  (By the way, with Swords to Plowshares maindecked, using Mogg Fanatic is sort of pointless.)

Null Rod and Root Maze are much better if you're going first than if you're going second.  That is, of course, assuming you're using them for mana denial.  Null Rod stops Slaver, which is cool, but that's a matchup you should be winning anyway.  Same with Belcher.  I'd really be hesitant to use them maindeck.

[JuJu]

I was wondering if a pure fast Aggro deck would be viable, I still have Kowal's Madness list handy and I'm thinking of whipping out the boner and being a Ninja.

Aggro/Control needs speed now. It needs raw buff creatures that can last the bigger creatures like Juggies. Oshawa Stompy might be an even more serious contender, it could also give me a reason to play Survivals.

[AnFgangsta]

Juju:  The problem is that the typical R/G beats deck has just not done well in recent tournaments (and my typical I mean the stereotypical deck running boas, apes, etc).  This calls for the unorthodox (or straying from the stereotypical build if you will) in my opinion..the deck just is not winning with what it plays.

Ive seen a decklist running both Mox Monkeys AND vandals maindeck and heard it just trashes stax, slaver, and anythign else on that idea.  Keep in mind it also maindecks Artifact Mutations! This is overwhelming artifact hate, some may say its overdoing it, but in a meta full of workshop decks and slaver we must ask ourselves is this really unreasonable?

The fact you are playing Wastelands, Strip Mine and this much artifact hate ensures the opponent getting frustrated, and this also can be an advantage in your favor.

As for the Oath matchup, we see Naturalize AND Elvish Lyrist..again the slight overkill (if you would even call it that) is to ensure resolving of your destructing the Oath.

There really are no Beatsticks in the decklist I saw, closest to taht would be the lavamancer but hes more of the burner I guess. I mean ofcourse Boas or Apes could be placed in the deck, but the main point I guess is to hate the prominant archetypes and then sideboard against everything else.  Sure, this may not win you every matchup, but if you insiston playing R/G I truly think this is the way to go.

The only matchup you would be weak(ER) against is combo as it has advantage against aggro but we have the ability to change the deck from Agro to Hate/Utility, sure we are ditching speed somewhat but gaining stability v. most archtypes which is needed.

Another idea is to maindeck Oxidize (possible in place of vandal since mutation is some key tech) just to suprise the unsuspecting Juggy.  To reiterate..the unorthodox is the unexpected, and the unexpected is what the typical R/G beats deck is lacking.

[Ripcord728]

Okay, so I've been trying out all the different combinations and permutations.  Here's what I've decided:

Ancestral Recall is the best card in Magic.  Therefore, I will play with five of them, even if it means having to use some slightly weaker cards that I'd like.

Playtesting has shown that with even the smallest amount of board control, Standstill turns into three cards for just a blue and a colorless.  The question becomes: how do you get that board control before dropping Standstill?

Two answers that I've found satisfactory are Skyshroud Cutter and Mishra's Factory.  This brings us back to the comment I made before, that I will play with weaker cards than I'd like in order to facilitate Standstill.  Besides, Cutter isn't terrible.  If your secondary card-advantage gainer is Ninja of the Deep Hours, (believe me, even five Ancestral Recalls isn't enough) then Cutter is a great card to send back.  Trust me, for an extra card per turn, donating ten life is a small price to pay.  If your secondary-card advantage gainer is Curiosity, then a turn one Curious Cutter with just a Tropical Island is a pretty nice play too.

As I mentioned before, Hidden Gibbons is really a great card.  Unfortunately, turn two Standstill after turn one Gibbons is much weaker than turn two Standstill after turn two anything else.  Gibbons and Standstill go against each other because with the latter, you're preventing them from activating the former.  In other words, an enchantment doing nothing is not a clock.  So I'm forced to look at other one-drops.  The best things to lay down before a Standstill seem to be Skyshroud Elite and Hidden Herd.  I haven't done enough testing to distinguish between which is stronger, but my instincts tell me that the 3/3 that becomes dead in the EXTREME late game is better than the 2/3.

Here's a decklist I've been using to a fair amount of success:

***

MANA: 25

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

CREATURES: 15

4 Hidden Herd
4 Meddling Mage
4 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Call of the Herd

DRAW: 10

4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

DISRUPTION: 10

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Daze

SIDEBOARD: 15

4 Root Maze
4 Ray of Revelation
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rushwood Legate

***

Some things to think about:

1.  I know I said that this deck is basically built around Standstill, but that doesn't mean that I'll use a card that sucks just because they work well together.  That pretty much explains the absence of Cloud Faeries, which aren't even free on turn one like Cutter is, as well as the absence of Faerie Conclave, because lands that come into play tapped slow you down way too much.

2.  Off-color Moxen don't work too well.  Turn one Standstill is only optimal if it's teamed with Skyshroud Cutter and followed by a Mishra's Factory.  The only thing off-color Moxen do seem to accelerate out is Call of the Herd, and that's just not enough to make them worthwhile.

3.  I use Curiosity over Ninja because Ninja works poorly with Hidden Herd as well as Call of the Herd, but this isn't locked in.  Feel free to test either or a combination of the two.

4.  The sideboard needs serious work.  The Rushwoods are mostly for when you're going second, as they become a free 2/1 against a lot of decks.  Tormod's Crypt and Root Maze are incredible versatile, and Ray of Revelation has one job but does it well: kill Oath, even if they have a counter.  Game one versus Oath needs help, but maindeck Seal of Cleansing is so much less versatile than maindeck Swords to Plowshares.

5.  Wastelands would be nice, but the deck is too color-intensive for it.  The eight fetch lands are necessary to ensure the possibility of turn one Tropical Island + Skyshroud Cutter.

[JuJu]

Juju:  The problem is that the typical R/G beats deck has just not done well in recent tournaments (and my typical I mean the stereotypical deck running boas, apes, etc).  This calls for the unorthodox (or straying from the stereotypical build if you will) in my opinion..the deck just is not winning with what it plays.

... Stuff

First, where did I imply R/G Beats? I implied that you need to use large creatures, like madness creatures(Roar of the Wurm, Arrogant Wurm, Rootwalla, Mongrel etc etc.) Not stuff as small as Joblin Welder.

Artifact hate is a good thing in and all, but if you're going to make half your deck dedicated to hating it, you're doing a really bad job of making a general meta deck. If anything, run some Rack and Ruins/Artifact Mutations maindeck and maybe a few Naturalize, Seals etc backup.

Deck Pile
...

You're playing more control then anything else with that deck, Meddling mages are really bad, Cranial Extraction is better; and even that is being outplayed these days(See Italian Togs). Rework your creature base so that your creatures can go hand in hand with others and make sure your clock isn't 10 turns ;/.

[Ripcord728]

Meddling Mage is SO much better than Cranial Extraction.  It's two mana cheaper and it beats for two per turn.  Also, it pitches to Force of Will.

[E Face]

Rework your creature base so that your creatures can go hand in hand with others and make sure your clock isn't 10 turns

 @ JuJu

Meddling Mage should not be viewed as a clock for most decks that run him. If you look at the Bird Shit deck from Lam Phan's incredible showing at SCG Syracuse, you see that the deck also utilizes very efficient beaters with Werebear and Nimble Mongoose.

Meddling Mage is a control card, straight up. From my experiences with the card it is a stall tactic until you can drop a decent sized beater. The two damage it does deal per turn reduces the amount of time it will take for your finishers to get the job done. That is when Meddling Mages truly shine.

And in my opinion, Mages coming down on turn one or two are more likely to resolve than a bomb like Cranial Extraction. CE is sometimes game over, but against the deck that it is game over it is very hard to push it through (i.e. Oath).

[disrupting specter]

Skyshroud Cutter is just bad, bad, bad. I already tried it out. Five life buys your opponent too much time. With ninjitsu, you'll take forever to catch up. Other possibilities may be Rushwood Legate, as mentioned, or Vine Dryad. While it may be somewhat disadvantageous, it stands up to some removal. Its toughness stands up to Lava Dart, Fire/Ice, and Grim Lavamancer. It may not be something that a player will want to blow their Trike on either. If casting cost dependant removal is in use by you, such as Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives, then Vine Dryad will get around that as well. Its power is the only other concern so be sure to include Spinach (a green thing that will make it big and strong, like rancor)

Any reason why not to include Cloud of Faeries or Rootwater Thief?

[Rapalaman1]

I once tried playing a mono green hidden deck. It was alot like stompy in many way but I played maindeck Skullclamp and Oxidize. If I remember correctly I played a bunch of elves for some acceleration and also to clamp away. There was also 4 of all of the Hidden guys(Herd,Gibbons,Gurrillas). I really liked the way the made the opponent hold their resources until they really needed them.
I abandoned the deck just because it never really performed for me but due to playing it for a while I can add you should definately play Hidden Gurrillas. A 5/3 whenever they play a mox, pretty good.

[giddygorgon]

Were I you, I would try for something very similar to gro, my current casual deck is something like this:

Mana:24
1 Tropical Island (My friends are kind of pissy if I play with any more =/)
7 Island
8 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

Draw Spells: 16
4 AK
4 Careful Study
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm

Creatures: 12
4 Nimble Mongoose (Definetely MVP, so much burn in my area)
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Werebear

Counter: 8
4 Daze
4 Force Spike

I know that the card choices are suboptimal, but this is for casual so you would probably put in a full set of duals, moxen in place of some of the other stuff fetches, etc.  I think it is a good starting point for an aggro-control deck that can rip through its library and pull out some quick wins.

[Engine_number_9]

I think that for this thread to be of any use we need to settle with some colours. Wheter we decide to go with a build that runs 2 colors or a multicolored build, I think that blue is a must. I dont think that anyone will disagree with me when saying that cards like FoW, recall, time walk are cards that we cant question in a aggro-control build.
By using FoW the deck will (as stated above by) be commited to using blue creatures as well. The creatues that come to (my) mind as useful are:
Meddling Mage
Rootwater Thief
Cloud of Faearies
Voidmage Prodigy
Spiketail Hatchling
These creatures dont offer much of a kill condition as they all with the exception of Meddling Mage and Voidmage have 1 in power.

This leaves the question does this deck want to have fat creatures that dont offer any sort of disruption but offer more bang for the buck damage wise. These are card like (some have been listed above):

Kird Ape
Skyshroud Elite
Qurion Dryad
Wild Mongrel
Ghazban Ogre  
Phyrexian Negator (I'm not a huge fan of running in a deck that doesnt run dark ritual, and i dont think ritual is cool in a aggro control deck)

Or should the deck evolve into deck with a slower kill but with creatures that effect your opponents game plan in another way  than putting up a clock. Creatures like this could be:

Weathered Wayfarer (cool at getting wastelands and Maze of Iith if SB'ed)
Gorilla Shaman
Kami of Ancient Law
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Withered Wretch
True Believer (really cool against combo and slaver)
Grim Lavamancer
Solitari foot soldier (cool if you run curiosity)
Nearly all the blue creatures listed above


Im personally a fan of running the slower more disruption heavy creatures as pure aggro seems too slow to do anything, as most decks, even control-decks, can goldfish faster than aggro.

[Klep]

By using FoW the deck will (as stated above by) be commited to using blue creatures as well. The creatues that come to (my) mind as useful are:
Meddling Mage
Rootwater Thief
Cloud of Faearies
Voidmage Prodigy
Spiketail Hatchling
These creatures dont offer much of a kill condition as they all with the exception of Meddling Mage and Voidmage have 1 in power.

You forgot Psychatog.  Before he was a control creature he was an aggro control creature.  You would be seriously amiss if you did not consider him.

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

What aggro/control needs to able to do is handle 2 decks that will probably be a problem for them.  Any new aggro control deck needs to have ample answers for both Oath and combo.

The universal hoser of these two decks is Meddling Mage. You may say that meddling mage is purely a control card but the decks in question here are aggro/CONTROL.  The legs on meddling mage don's hurt either.

I have come to the conclusion tnat the two cards that eat at combo the most are Null Rod and Arcane Laboratory.  Most decks would rather maindeck Null Rod because of its usefullness against other decks like slaver.

For Oath, as well as for a plethora of other decks, Swords to Plowshare and Waterfront Bouncer are excellent cards and will hurt your opponent quite badly.

U/W Beatz

4x Meddling Mage
2x Waterfront Bouncer
3x Null Rod
2x Stifle
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Exalted Angel
4x Standstill
3x Swords to Plowshare
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
4x Spiketail Hatchling
2x Crucible of Worlds

4x Mishra's Factory
3x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Saphire
1x Plains
1x Island

[Freelancer]

I have always found the statement that swords is good against oath somewhat strange, consider these scenario's;

1) You have 1 swords, and you hit a akroma with it next turn they oath again and you die to spirit of the night
2) You have 2 swords, but your opponent manages to counter 1 this leaves you back to scenario 1
3) You have 2 swords, and your opponent isn't able to counter 1 (the most unlikely off the bunch) he will loose both creatures.
4) You have 1 swords, you waste his orchard and swords your token after attacking. This prevents the opponent for a (small) number off turns to oath.

All off these scenario's consider that oath has resolved, wich is the exact thing that you want to prevent. I don't think that swords is usefull, my goal in this matchup (with fish, or any slow aggro/control deck) is to bring the game to a point where I can counter/stop oath or to a point where oath doesn't matter because his life total is to low (ie. if I attack no matter how he blocks he's dead in 2 turns). If I reach one off these goals I have won the game...I don't see double swords happening any time soon, also a single swords will not save you because the opponent gains 6 live (gaining 6 is equal to a timewalk in this case) and brings you back to the same point where a spirit of the night is attacking. And I'm not even considering they oath out a spirit off the night first at wich point your already lost 6 life (from spirit) than next turn another 12 point swing (assuming you swords angel, and get hit by spirit) wich is to big to over come because you are dead in 2 turns (fish deal 14+ damage in 2 turns -if you brought him under 8 life you have effectivly won the game if you have enough pressure-)...My point being what do people think when they say swords is good against oath? Am I overlooking something that didn't show up in testing or something?

I will take out any spelling/grammar mistakes later, I don't have the time right now to that...


Edit: Edited out some horrible mistakes (swapping fish with oath etc.) and cleared some things up a bit...

[Engine_number_9]

I have always found the statement that swords is good against oath somewhat strange, consider these scenario's;

I think you are rigth. I think that the easiest way to beat Oath is by trying to prevent the Oath player from Oathing up fat. This can be done through preventing oath hitting the board with Meddling Mages and counterspells or killing the Oath the turn after it has been dropped with cards like

Kami of Ancient Law
Disenchant
Seal of Cleansing etc.

or by removing the Spirit and Akroma before they can oath them out. Rootwater is good at this but maybe a bit too slow.

So if the "ideal aggro-control-deck" runs what I think are some of the most potent cards at aggro-control's disposal:
Meddling Mage
Kami of Ancient Law
FoW
Daze
Spiketail Hatchling
Rootwater Thief
I dont think that the Oath match-up will be all that bad. Furthermore these card are not cards that only hit oath. The cards listed above, with the exception of Kami of Ancient Law, can force your opponent into using a suboptimal game plan, whatever he is playing.

[Freelancer]

Actually kami is a bit suboptimal in fish because either he is a (bad) creature or he's a (bad) seal of cleansing...I think he's better off in the sideboard, but in the side your better off with seal of cleansing for flexibility...

Also if you can keep rootwater thief on the table for 2+ turns while keeping mana open to use his ability and somehow manage to stop the opponent from triggering oath you have won...But this happens rarely (he's a nice counter catcher against oath though)...And probably not worth sideboard slots...

Extract (I know 'somebody' mentioned this); This is like a 'better' swords against oath or atleast has the same (major) problem, you need two resolved to win the game (after boarding probably three) wich is simply way to much if you don't have a effective way to protect or tutor for them...

If you want to beat oath, you need to deal with the actual oath...Wich brings me to my next point; sometime back I read in several reports something about a 'super secret oath tech card' (or something similar) anybody know what card this is and wants to reveal it to the public (oath has become a bit less popular lately, so I doubt it is of any use to keep it secret)?

[warble]

If you want to beat oath...use cheapO artifacts

I would suggest:

Claws of Gix (0)
1: Sacrifice a Permanent, gain 1 life

Hooooooooooser

and if you want to actually do something with the shiz you can use

Altar of Dementia
Any number of things that sack your creatures to do damage/other stuff

It's just way easy to kill your own stuff with a sideboard.  Determine what you want in your SB to kill oath, and it dies almost...too consistently...  This doesn't mean they can't manage to resolve an Auriok Salvager and still kill you though.  

[Freelancer]

Problems arise in a AGGRO deck though, there's a decent shot that they will board in b2b shutting down your man-lands leaving you with nothing...They run more draw, have wastelands for man-lands, b2b as the ultimate bomb, more counters and they have probably boarded in a answer to your hate as well (bounce prob.) wich means they have inevitability wich means you have to seize the beatdown role wich you can't because all off your creatures are sacrificed...
You have to use hate that deals with the prime card of oath (if you didn't guess it yet; oath of druids o_0) using cards that deal with there creatures or in a way that hurts your own strategy is not going to work...

So I ask again what is the ultimate anti-oath card?

[Mark_Story]

Well I don't think there is any 'best' card to use.  Claws of gix, or goblin bombardment, are not going to work in a creature based aggro deck.  We need to use creatures to win.  Saccing the spirit tokens doesn't say "the win".  You need to remove the oath.  Removing orchard does nothing, as aggro-control relies on aggro beats to win.  So enchantment hate/meddling mage is the best option.  We need to look at what sort of answers are available to the colours we'd be playing.

In white:
Disenchant
Seal of cleansing
Aura mutation
scour: High CC but gets rid of all oaths
kami of the ancient law
monk realist
serenity
ray of revelation: great if green is also being played

In blue:
There is no real enchantment removal only good bounce and aura flux, which doesn't seem to be a great option.  However, there are always ways to remove it from the game
Rootwater thief
Extract

In Green:
naturalize
Elvish lyrist
viridian zealot

Other options that aren't so hot
Matsu-tribe sniper  
Master decoy: Tapping down their threats basically removes them

Outside of blue's pre-emptive removal whi looks like the best option.  The problem with oath is always going to be that their men are bigger, get cast for free, and in order to have enough answers to their threats, we have to either remove their creatures from the game, or destroy oath through their massive counter wall.

[Machinus]

So I ask again what is the ultimate anti-oath card?

For the maindeck, bouncer is a really great card.

For the sideboard, spawning pit and maze + crucible are excellent.

[andrewpate]

@Machinus
You really think maindeck Waterfront Bouncer?  I have used it md in Madness before, but not in Fish (and its cousins).  I've always thought of it as very sb if you don't need it as a discard outlet.  What do you see it as good enough against besides Oath?  Dragon, I suppose.  It's worthless against Stax, pretty bad against Slaver, and absolutely dead against combo.  It is an uncounterable bounce for Psychatog, but does Tog really have much trouble with that?  They can bounce it, counter it before it hits, or even (in some builds) Cunning Wish for Stifle.  Bouncer seems like a great choice post-board and should definitely go in the sb if you expect some Oath, but I'm not thrilled at all about it as a maindeck card.  As blue 2-mana weenies, Voidmage Prodigy, Cloud of Faeries, and Spiketail Hatchling all seem better and I haven't seen anyone running 4 apiece of those and wanting more in that slot.

[Engine_number_9]

Actually kami is a bit suboptimal in fish because either he is a (bad) creature or he's a (bad) seal of cleansing...I think he's better off in the sideboard, but in the side your better off with seal of cleansing for flexibility...

You are completely right when saying that Kami is a bad beatstick and/or a bad Seal of Cleansing. But that is exactly what makes it good. Either it is a 2/2 for 2 W or it is a half Seal of Cleansing.
In the Oath match-up this is quite important. A SoC wont be used to combat anything else than an opposing Oath. So if Oath doesnt hit the table until turn 4 SoC does nothing until turn 4, where as Kami can start working the Oath players life.

But then again is the Oath match-up so bad as we make to. I think that we can all agree on a turn 1 Oath is pretty bad for any aggro-control deck. My very small amount of testing of the U/W fish vs Oath match shows that it is at least 50/50 and maybe better for the fish player. Furtheremore this build didnt even maindeck Kami or SoC. However my testing isnt sufficient enough to tell anything else than U/W fish can beat Oath.

I think that we need to decide which kind of disruption we want to run. Do we want the typical fish disruption of proactive mana-denial (with crucible, strips and maybe Wearther Wayfarer) and permission (FoW, Daze and Spiketail) or do we want to splash black for some discard spells like:
Duress and Hymn to Tourach (sucks in a multicolored build)
or
should it be the combo (un) friendly rootmaze with the splash of green.
My best shot at it is the Fish sort of disruption in a U/W build since White offers a cardpool of many good utility creatures (many listed) above. Furthermore there is a White/Blue fetch, which is always cool.

[E Face]

You are completely right when saying that Kami is a bad beatstick and/or a bad Seal of Cleansing. But that is exactly what makes it good. Either it is a 2/2 for 2 W or it is a half Seal of Cleansing.

In the Oath match-up this is quite important. A SoC wont be used to combat anything else than an opposing Oath. So if Oath doesnt hit the table until turn 4 SoC does nothing until turn 4, where as Kami can start working the Oath players life.

But the fact is, and I agree with Freelancer, that having one card because it is half of one card and has a decent power:cost ratio does not make it good. It makes it worse because it is now in slots where a better creature or a more versatile form of disrption should be. This is why Meddling Mage is so powerful in this deck, because it is disruption for anything that is a non land card, and has the bonus of being as 2/2 for two.

The scenario you presented is very viable. However, your clock will die once Oath hits for the first time, and both you (assuming you have no other threats resolved) and the Oath player will start rebounding at the same time. This is bad for you because Oath sports a much stronger draw engine and more counters. Plus, the Oath's clock is much quicker than the aggro control decks clock, so the Oath player has more time to find the solution than you do.

Assuming you play the other way you reserve the beats for more efficient creatures (presumably) and more efficient disruption (presumably). A two toughness one drop follwed by Oath disruption turn two is certainly better.

I am currently piloting a W/U/G aggro control deck, and I choose to run Ray of Revelation in my board because it is Rack and Ruin against Oath, but more efficient because it can be spread out over the course of multiple turns. I do however run 4 Meddling Mage, 3 STP's, and 2 Seal of Cleansing maindeck, so game one is already manageable.

Freelancer wrote:
So I ask again what is the ultimate anti-oath card?

IMHO opinion, as far is this thread is concerned, it is Ray of Revelation.

(RoR also shines in the dragon matchup   )

[Freelancer]

Oh my I spurred some discussion how interesting...

But the fact is, and I agree with Freelancer, that having one card because it is half of one card and has a decent power:cost ratio does not make it good. It makes it worse because it is now in slots where a better creature or a more versatile form of disrption should be. This is why Meddling Mage is so powerful in this deck, because it is disruption for anything that is a non land card, and has the bonus of being as 2/2 for two.  

Rest

Yes that's what I mean, a 2/2 wich is in a couple off matchups usefull is not going to cut it in a optimal build...Especially if a seal of cleansing also hits artifacts (wich is SO important) options=god...

Against oath my biggest problem (piloting UW fish) is getting enough pressure, I've only rarely died to turn 1 orchard oath go. I could stop him in the early game but unless I got out multiple creatures or a curious creature (to draw more pressure/disruption) he started to draw a lot  finding counters to stop my pressure and eventually a oath followed and killed me...(okay, akroma/spirit)
I've been tempted to run G in here as well for some fast beats like river boa and utility, but I liked the manastability to much...

Yeah ray of revelation is great unless you aren't running G...

I think that we need to decide which kind of disruption we want to run. Do we want the typical fish disruption of proactive mana-denial (with crucible, strips and maybe Wearther Wayfarer) and permission (FoW, Daze and Spiketail) or do we want to splash black for some discard spells like:
Duress and Hymn to Tourach (sucks in a multicolored build)
or
should it be the combo (un) friendly rootmaze with the splash of green.
My best shot at it is the Fish sort of disruption in a U/W build since White offers a cardpool of many good utility creatures (many listed) above. Furthermore there is a White/Blue fetch, which is always cool.

Hmm thats easy, the traditional way obviously (discard=no good in fish -trust me I tried) and personally I don't like green that much in fish unless you have another support colour (like W or R) wich I dislike because it weakens your mana base...So that leaves us with W or R for support color, I think where better off with W because off mage and seal wich are both really good...My biggest problem with mage is twofold though; 1) You have to know what you are playing against, (ATM I have a 90% record of calling the right card, but it brings problems each time again) this can be avoided though by lots off playtesting and scouting.
2) The mana base, UW is really really rough for the manabase. This is by far the major reason why I lowered the amount off mages from 4 to 3, it makes games a little bit less skill intensive and if I can't reach UW fast enough I can pitch the mage to force (with 4x mage I drew way to often duplicates wich sucks)...

For the maindeck, bouncer is a really great card.

For the sideboard, spawning pit and maze + crucible are excellent.

In fish maindeck bouncer?? That's dead in almost all off your matchups...Also post board maze + crucible? they will bring in b2b and a 3 mana artifact is a bit difficult to sneak past a counterwall, not to forget that a single maze is nothing but stalling (similar to swords, same problem)...Spawning pit in fish? Somehow making each creature a shock doesn't seem that good, and most players board in some bounce to deal with this...Not to forget it shuts down curiosity wich is really important in this matchup to draw more disruption...I tested this side for some time, but to many players just managed to bounce it or hardcast a angel/spirit...(your not going to kill them anytime soon) It never really worked the way I wanted...

I probably want to much out off my sideboard though, but really I don't consider a card  you can easily play around the ultimate anti-oath card...
I'll just continue to run mages/seals and maybe some annuls than I should be fine...

What was the name off that enchantment (2W) that allowed you to saccrifice a land to destroy a enchanment?
This card is probably closer to a hoser than bouncers, swords, maze and other such cards...Would have to test how hard it is to sneak it past a counterwall...


Okay that was a long post, but I think I covered everything...

[Ripcord728]

EFace:

Can I see your decklist?  I also run W/U/G aggro-control, with 4 Swords, 2 Seal, 4 Meddling Mage, and 3 Ray of Revelation Sideboard.  (The Ray is also good against Sensei/Sight combo.)  Also I run 2 Elvish Scrapper and 2 Elvish Lyrist maindeck, mostly because I need one-drops to go along with my 4 Curiosity and 4 Standstill.

As far as sideboards go, Root Maze and Tormod's Crypt are ridiculously versatile.

[DuCK]

look at my tnt deck i just posted (resurfacing of tnt).  That plays both aggro and control quite well while having answers for all decks, aside from random 1st turn kills.

[Freelancer]

E Face; Can you pst the WUG decklist in this thread...I'm also interested in seeying it...

What control cards do you have in TNT besides the tutor god survival? (don't have time to check the thread atm)