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Author Topic: Oath Salvagers wins Mox Pearl in 30 Person Tourney! Yes!  (Read 8509 times)
LotusHead
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« on: March 07, 2005, 06:25:11 am »

Oath of Druids/Forbidden Orchard is a nifty combo enabler.  This we all know.  Most of us realize that Akroma/Spirit of the Night is the quickest way to end most games.  But Darksteel Colossus exists and has MANY cool advantages (like Berzerk for the Kill, and the ability to survive, in a way, anything short of Swords to Plowshares).  Auriok Salvager, however, loves digging through graveyards and Oath Decks often have FAT graveyards.  Inevetably, Oath Decks will try to exploit that.  

I did, a few months ago, transforming The Deck Formerly Known As SlapJack into a build of Oath/Salvagers.  My build is still different from other Oath/Salvager builds, but is by no means better.  The Oath/Salvager thing is still being developed, and recently has been winning top spots in several metas, even if it isn't neccessarily "popular" or "well respected" like say, Control Slaver or "it sucks to be you" Trinisphere.dec.

The following is my account of how I won an actual piece of power with Salvagers.  The details might not be totally accurate because I am simply stunned that I won despite all of my CRAZY scrub mistakes.  I am humble, Oh ManaDrainers, hear my tale.

The Quick Version is, I won round 1 due to well...I won. Round Two was basically a bye. You'll have to read on to find out why.  Round 3: Killed me a Riddler.  I took that deck apart about 2 weeks after I proxied it. It sucks balls.  Sorry.  Try Cereberal Assassin.  That deck is fun AND original.  it has game even if you only ever get 1 land in play (and maybe a mox).  It's crazy! even 1 Possessed Portal maindeck gives you so many outs.  Props goes to Garth One Eye for coming up with the tech (at least in my world, and my world involves Gaea Welders: See Casual Forum with ZERO replies for proof). Round 4: I get owned by 3CC savagely.  It was so Ugly, I don't even remeber many details.  Library go, out counter me. Savage!  Round 5: My opponenent conceeded to me out of the kindness of his heart.  He is a saint.  You will have to read the report to find out why, but Andrei, you rule!  May your Traffic Tickets always get lost in the machine (if you had a car still).  Sniff.  I should have PWNED YOU if I was caffienated enouth! Round 6: TPS: ownage.  Sorry man, you got me back game one of T4. Plus Top 4 coverage.

Read on my fellow ManaDrainers. Special thanks to anyone who didn't completely hate on Salvager Tech since last June or So.  

Thirty people showed up to duke it out for a Mox Pearl in the first of Eudemonia’s Power Nine series.  I had no time to do any actual scouting or anything, as I had to help one of my Possie make proxies for his TPS deck (he wrote LOTUS on some random 0cc artifact, and had RECALL on a blue spell.  Sloppy).

If any of my details are screwed up, I apologize.  Lemme know and I’ll try to fix it.  I didn’t take notes because I didn’t really expect to go all the way. I have confidence in my deck, but other decks are just crazy fine-tuned and amazing.  Mine just exploits Fifth Dawn and Black Lotus.  

About 2 weeks after Fifth Dawn was release, I slapped together a build of Salvagers/Trinket Mages/Black Lotus/Spellbombs.  I tweaked it for a few weeks and then for the first time entered the world of Type 1 Tournaments.  I won three of the first 6 tourneys (all like, 20 player size tournies), but I simply rolled over and Died to Fish with its Wastelands and Null Rods.  After a few months of Soul Searching, I figured that 5-7 basic lands are what I needed, so I cut black for basics.  Later, someone somewhere posted an Oath of Druids deck using Auriok Salvagers.  

When I got bored one day, I decided to make my own Combo Oath deck.  Salvagers/Spellbomb or White Bringer Mindslaver were the front runners.

I decided it was easier to replace 4 Trinket Mages, 2 Auriok Salvagers, a Tundra, and Either Engineered Explosives or Chalice of the Void, Tolarian Academy and such for basically 4 Oath, 4 Orchard, 1 Blessing, 1 Tropical Island and 1 Lion’s Eye Diamond maindeck than to build a SlaveBringer deck from the ground up.

The results were immediate:  I got Salvagers onto the field a LOT more often than before.  But I couldn’t give up on my Trinket Mages.  I fired TEN cards in my sideboard for the 5 cards that I actually used as Wish targets most often, and the other ten slots were my “back to old school Slapjack build” cards. This change to SlapJack was made about 1 month after Champions of Kamigawa came out.

 
Anyways, 5 rounds of Swiss to a cut to top four leaves me facing…

Round 1: Stan Gin playing Meandeck Oath.  2-1

Game 1: I Mull my crap hand into more crap (although not unplayable). Just no business or brokenness or anything. He starts with Sapphire, Land, Ancestral, go.  He just controls the game from there and Oaths up Akroma, hitting once, leaving me a 12. I was about to become another Oath Statistic.  After topdecking land for the 3rd time in a row, I WAS an Oath Statistic.

Game 2: I mull into counters, and we fight, but I think I got to cast Timetwister in there and kill him via combo. I belive I AEtherspellbombed my Spirit token in order to be outnumbered by his Spirit token.  He didn’t see that coming. It was in play.  He was just afraid of me bouncing Akroma or something.

Game 3: I think I screw him with Chalice for 2, but I distinctly remember being able to resolve stuff like Intuition, so I cast more threats.  Eventually, Salvagers save the day. My opponent somehow just ran out of steam. I bounced his Spirit with my Spellbomb, and he ended the game with Akroma and Mr. Black hogging two of the three slots in his hand.

Round 2: Chetin H playing Mono-Black Doomsday Dragon. I think. 2-0

This was his first Type 1 tournament, and he was nervous.  He just did the best he could do with quick combo on 10 Proxies.  Sigh.  

Game 1: He raped my mulled hand with Duress followed by Cabal Therapy wasting my two Brainstorms and Tinker.  He did the same thing a few turns later, leaving me with crap.  Luckily, his kill is Laquatus.  He mills me to eternity, at least until I hit Blessing, and…later Colossus.  Lucky me! We shuffled my deck a few times, and cut, putting one of two piles in the graveyard, repeating if Blessing was there.  I get to combo off at leisure. First time Blessing ever helped me not get milled by the Ambassador .

Game 2: Let just say, this is his first tournament.  I had AEther Spellbomb on the field (wee!) with at least a couple of  Islands untapped.  He animates Dragon.  I go through the motions of the stack effects with props such as  my big life counter die and someone’s deck box.  He had no permanents.  I killed him shortly after that and helped him learn more about Dragon. As in deck evaluation, other kill methods, not just ownage in the match.

Round 3:  ??? playing The Riddler 2-1

Game 1: Trinisphere turn 1 sucks, and he has Mr Dreadnaught in play hitting once before my Tinker for Colossus stall tactic happened. Naught #2 joins to field and we’re off to game 2.

Game 2 and 3: I combo off on him with some Uber Broken Oath stuff early on.  I probably forced some stuff, but I remember him sitting on Trinisphere, Karn, Ancient Tomb, City of Brass and 8 life for a while.  Sweet times.  My opponent was a nice guy, but it is fun watching shop players die to painful lands and Trinisphere.  Wee! Good times.

Round 3: Kevin playing 3 Color Control. 0-2

Game 1: Library, go is my worst matchup, especially followed by 2nd turn Ancestral.  I got owned. Negators, Meddling Mages, way more counters than me. Ownage. I lost.

Game 2: More Ownage.  He countered my Trinket Mage. He countered anything else I did to do stuff.  He killed me. Sucks.  We was a nice guy, but I didn’t want to face that deck again.  It scared me.  Great build man.

Round 4: Andrei playing metagame hate White Weenie (with Meddling Mages and fun blue stuff). 2-1

Game 1: He plays Lotus, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Tundra, Meddling Mage naming Explosives. (they were hiding in Sideboard.  We’ve played before, but he was not aware that I do the Oath Engine thing.). None-the-less, Samurai #2 hits the field and he beats me down and after Wishing for Chain of Vapors (my only non artifact bounce Wish target), I find myself 1 mana away from dealing with the situation.  I was a 3, he had lots of dudes, and had Salvagers and Colossus on the field.  I scooped.

My five Wish targets didn't have the White Weenie matchup in mind at all.  I like Andrei's build, and I watched him own my buddy Alex's Crushing Chamber deck earlier.  Way cool rogue stuff.

Apparently, I could have Chain of Vapored stuff back and forth with Andrei until I reached a point where I could combo off, but I don’t always make the perfect plays.

Game 2: I side in Trinket Mage and co.  I do the Land Mox go,… Land, Trinket Mage Go…Black Lotus Salvager Trinket Mage etc. He got Slapjacked (the name of my build with Trinket Mages).

Game 3: I make a million scrub mistakes.  I could have Exploded his Meddling Mage and Samurai and then win with my Lotus.  But I didn’t. I scrub out and forget my game plan when it comes to my turn.

I suck crap.  But I wasn’t dead.  I just lost my Lotus to Samurai. Hence my combo.  For some reason, my Tinker was in my graveyard (I intuitioned for it and 2 other spells.  I don’t know what I was thinking). Then Time was called during my Draw Step.

Crap.  I had a fairly advantageous board position, but would NOT be able to kill him in 3 turns.  Then again, he couldn’t kill me either.  Worse, we were both 3-1 at this point, and 3-1-1 would do neither of us any good.  One of us needed to win, or we both lose.

After stating the position that we were in, while playing (advancing the game) we simply had to decide who would concede.I don’t want to concede to him, because I only have power seven and 2 Drains.  He has it all.  He concedes to me out the the kindness of his heart.  Andrei is a scholar and a gent.  Granted, I made SO MANY mistakes this game (Forcing his Scepter when there was a CHALICE FOR TWO out was first, NOT WINNING when I could have was the second.).  Eventually, I realize that the problem is, I did not have a regular steady supply of Diet Coke, and this was in the tourney’s 4th or 5th hour.  I solved that problem as I went up against…

Round 5: Josh Sherman playing UB Tendrils. 2-0 (I think)

Game 1: I combo off crazy mad style with a first turn Land, Mox, Sol Ring, TIMETWISTER!.  I win. He had a gawd hand, apparently, and I got to Oath shortly afterwards.

Game 2: I combo off crazy mad style.  This game took much longer, because I mulliganned down to FOUR FRIGGIN CARDS. I remember mulliganing almost every hand of every round.  Highlight include me drawing a half dozen cards with my Conjuer’s Bauble.  Weak draw engine, but it does draw cards. Crazy. I don’t think I sideboarded at all.  I felt confident in this match up (why, I don’t know).

I MAKE TOP 4! WEEE!

Round 6: Josh Sherman, again, playing UB Tendrils, again.

Game 1: He plays Black Lotus, Mox, Mox, Mox, Dark Ritual, Duress probably, Minds Desire for 6.  Pretty cool.  Then he has a bunch of fun stuff that he gets to play for free.  He brainstormed once before casting Yawgmoth’s Will and replaying all his graveyard stuff reDuressing me a couple of times and eventually recasts Minds Desire for 20.  Sigh.  I make him go through the motions, as this is obviously the most broken he’s gone on turn 1 and I let have have his glory.  Josh is a swell dude and deserves to get at least one broken Turn 1 Kill in the top 4.  Unfortunately, it was against me. Congrats to Josh.  Desireing 26 cards turn 1.  Pretty cool!

Game 2: I play land, Chalice for 0 and screw him over.  He dies to me tinkering out the chalice to do some Salvager recursion at a leisurely pace. He had Claws of Gix in play (in retrospect, this may have happened during round 6. ), and in hand, along with a bunch of dark rituals, a Yawgmoth’s Will and nothing useful.  Good times, 2 dead cards.

Game 3: play land, Chalice for 0, go and screw him over. I Drain his Time Walk, be cause I could actually use the mana, and I think he just wanted to draw a card. Eventually, I tinker something out for Colussus and hardcast a Trinket Mage.  He got to play his Necropotence, but…

Gifts Ungiven for 2 good cards and 2 bounce spells puts 2 good cards in the graveyard.  I win! (sorry I forgot the details).  Josh and I both get free invites to the next Tourney, and Josh gets some nice store credit (fifty bucks. Not bad.)

FINAL MATCHUP!

David Ochoa playing ??? 2-0

I have seen this guy around, and I know he knows what he is doing.  I am scared of him.  Actually, terrified. Plus, I forget entirely what he is playing!

Game 1: I keep a hand of Oath, Oath, Orchard, Orchard, Land, Brainstorm and maybe something else. I THINK he Duressed me, prompting me to brainstorm an Oath to the top of my deck. I think he takes a Force of Will. I play Oath turn 2.  Pretty cool.  I think I put the second Oath next turn into play as well, but I well, I comboed off rather quickly.  David asked to look at my rather large graveyard, before going on to game 2.  Everything was in plain sight except for Tinker for Colossus, which he probably knew was in the deck anyways.

Game 2: I see an awesome hand of Mox, Sol Ring, Land, and 4 more good cards probably blue ones, like drain and force and tinker, who knows what. David takes a few minutes to decide whether or not to keep his hand.  He does in fact keep it and plays Citadel, Ruby, go.

I do the land, mox, Sol Ring, go thing.

David draws a card and says go.

He missed a land drop? And he kept it?  My hand had a bunch of goodies in it, and I couldn’t help but want to play stuff, rid his hand of Forces and blue spells.  I bait with Trinket Mage, which is answered by Red Elemental Blast! WHAT?!?!?  I made 2 mistakes here.  

A) Slaver Decks have REBs in their boards.  It’s how they win counter wars.  I should have known this.  Fish did it to me all last summer when I was stupidly playing 2 basic lands, and not 5-7.  Instead of 8 Counters, he now has 12.  

B) He kept a crap land hand with a Red mox for a reason.  David isn’t stupid.  The cards in his hand HAD to have been awesome for him to risk missing a land drop turn two with no blue sources. I just wanted to empty his hand and stuff. Keep dropping threats. I learned a LOT about Magic when he Red Blasted my Trinket Mage.  Like actually trying to figure out what he boarded in against me.  

I was in the mindset of “Combo Hate” or “Oath Hate” or “Graveyard Hate”.  I simply forgot about the 4 REB hate that is usefull against just about every deck out there.  Thanks David. I learned a harsh lesson.

Ok, dead Trinket Mage.  I give him a few Spirit tokens to beat me up with, and he resolves a welder. I follow up with Explosives for 1, but let it sit there.  Why? I don’t know.  Maybe I wanted him to not do stuff for a while.  There were no artifacts in either Graveyard. Later, I brainstorm into a Chalice of the Void, and I contemplate setting it at 3 to stop future Thirsts, Intuitions, YawgWill, Crucib…Well, those first three cards.  But how to get 6 mana that he won’t drain?

I had 2 drains in my hand, a Brainstorm, and an Intuition and other goodies in my hand, and decided that the best plan of action is to EOT INTUITION UP SOME FAT MANA SOURCES! That was my Brilliant Idea. I settled on Tolarian Academy, Black Lotus, and Mana Crypt.  See what a genius I was? (sarcastic here…).  I actually really did want the Tolarian Academy the most, and David was nice enough to let me have it.  He then welded out the Explosives and gave me a Mana Crypt which kinda sucked.

We played a few turns with me having some options, but his Spirit Tokens and active Welder and my damn Crypt kept me hurting so I was looking for an out. We fought a counter war over something (a Tinker or Trinket Mage. I wanted a Pyrite Spellbomb to kill his stupid party pooper Welder, but I also needed a red source to activate it.), and I drained his REB and his Force of Will.  After my attack step, I resolve chalice for 3.

At some point, I was at three, David had 4 mana sources, and I hand a big field of stuff.  2 Drains in hand, Brainstorms, a Salvager, and maybe a Black Lotus.  Real good stuff.  However, I had to win NOW or risk losing to Crypt next turn.

Sucks.

I cast Salvagers off Tundra, Sol Ring, Crypt, which resolved.  I had 1 floating from Mana Crypt BUT I FORGOT ABOUT IT as I was considering what to do about his active welder.  I then popped the Lotus for three white mana. Could he screw me somehow?  This is my first time sitting in the FINALS with a Mox on the line.  I was trying to figure out how to come up with a way to get my Lotus back without him doing something about it.  Actually, I don’t know what I was thinking.  All I knew is that I wanted my Lotus back.

David asks if there is still 1 colorless floating from the Mana Crypt. DING! YES! I had one floating.  Now, armed with WWW1, I could recur my Lotus through any (ok, non-existent) hate.  I comboed out, killing his stupid Spirit tokens with Explosives for Zero, then replaying all my 0cc artifacts (except Chalice, which had formerly set at 3.).

There were no Kill cards in my graveyard.  Looking back at my hand, I discovered a forgotten Brainstorm.  Time to Brainstorm into the ultimate solution.  I dig into…TRINKET MAGE?!?!? I put him back there earlier when I couldn’t cast him under chalice, and there he was waiting for me! My friend! He finds me my Spellbomb, and all I have to do is verify that I didn’t do something stupid, like siding it out.  I win!


Oath-Salvagers With SlapJack Transformational Sideboard by Jeff Neilson

4 Oath of Druids
4 Forbidden Orchards
1 Gaea’s Blessing
2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Darksteel Colosus
1 Tinker
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Conjurer’s Bauble
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
2 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 TimeTwister
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

4 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Sideboard
1 Intuition
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Brain Freeze
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mages
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tundra
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives

Generally, if my opponent is probably siding in Oath hate, or Combo hate, or IS playing Oath or Combo, I side the 10 non- wish targets for the Oath Engine.  The remaining deck is like my old SlapJack build. Very fun.

Props to all of my opponents (even 3 Color Control guy who Savagely Owned me round 4), for my possie for taking on real life Type 1 decks (Alex piloting Crushing Chamber actually took 7th!)

Props to Andrei for being a really great guy. I went all the way, Andrei! I dedicate this win to you and every other Rogue Deckbuilder out there.

Props to David Ochoa for making me better understand Magic.  

Props to traditional Oath Decks for making Fish go away.

Props to my deck for being the most forgiving deck I can ever imagine.

Props to Eudemonia for having a Power Nine series on the WEST COAST, Northern California at that, and 9 of em in the next few months.

Props to Proxies in Type 1 Tournements.

Slops to caffeine for not being there for me during rounds 1 through 4.

Well, this is the first piece of Power that I won in Combat.  Right now it is sitting in the front page of my Trade Binder, next to the playsets of Kudzus and Rabid Wombats.

My dream is that Auriok Salvagers become respected and eventually fine tuned to be the deck of choice.  I want to someday face a Mirror match.  It could happen, right?

All thoughts, comments and corections appreciated.

(damn! I win a MOX, yet make so many scrub mistakes! I know round 2 was a bye, and round 4: White Weenie? that was a dedicated Hate machine., but I did kill me a Riddler, Oath, Tps, Tps AGAIN, and Control Slaver, right? Props to Salvagers?)

I can't help it. I have a Mox Pearl in my Trade Binder. How cool is that for Rogue Boy here Smile ?

Andrei, I went all the way. This is for you.

Adam: Damn I need those Drains back! It's addictive! Drain mana! Mana Drain! Argh!

TMD: Keep Vintage Alive

Team Scrubland (uh, Alex and Austin: Kill those netdeckers, even if you ARE netdecking! F-with their manabases, pwn them till you get storm count 10!)

Trinket Mages: Just because you are in the board, doesn't mean I don't love you.  It's just...well...the Salvagers hit the board more often if Oath is in play... You know, it's a Forbidden Thing.

To Fishhead, Adam, the other Adam, The Legend of Magic, Zhalfirin, David Ochoa, my Possie from Vacaville, Brent, Devon, Robert the Swordsman, Kilo, Dennis and everyone else I have dealt with in the world of Vintage: Thank You.

Honorary Mention to AngryPheldagrif for advancing the cause in the early days.

(Hey, my first peice of power, it DOES feel like it needs an Oscar speech.)

Lastly, a plug for Gay Welders: Look in the Casual Forum.  Mesmeric Orbs: Broken!

LotusHead: Winner of Power since about 2 hours ago...
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 07:16:00 am »

Congrats on the win!  I'm sure you'll go down in history as 'that guy who won power with a salvager deck that also transforms into a salvager deck'  Wink
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jpmeyer
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 08:30:14 am »

Since you have a Blessing maindeck (rather than either nothing or Krosan Reclamation), do you often need to go off in response to the Blessing trigger?
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 11:52:56 am »

Jeff!! Wonderful report and congratulations!!

Sorry about the Drains...  But hey, you've got extra power!  Time to trade up for a Time Walk or Ancestral!   Very Happy

Thank you and curse you for getting me hooked on this damn game!  Twisted Evil
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Zhalfirin
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 01:24:56 pm »

Quote
Since you have a Blessing maindeck (rather than either nothing or Krosan Reclamation), do you often need to go off in response to the Blessing trigger?


I've seen him grab the artifacts he needs (Lotus, Spellbombs) in response to the Blessing trigger and then go off during his mainphase.
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Lunar
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2005, 01:54:31 pm »

Great job on the win man...

Yes your opponent running the 3cc was named kevin...He originally was running 4cc and after some testing we decided that was bad and I suggested going with a similar build to the 3cc that made top 8 at scg4, meddling mages and negators and such, it is a really brutal deck that can play proactivly and reactivly with ease, an unfortunate run in against the TPS deck that made top 4 and your opponent giving you the win kept him away from top 4 himself, but he still go to scoop up that nifty eureka (interesting choice of a 5th place prize card eudemonia)

All in all it was a great tourney, I was dissapointed that Orlove didnt show as he mentioned he might but it was still all good.

I ran a 7/10 build running maindeck slaver lock taking out 1 duplicant 1 triskelion, 2 basic islands, 1 gilded lotus to insert slaver/CoW/Seat of the synod lock, and a strip mine, it was brutally dissapointing that my first two rounds were against my buddy kevin and his 3cc deck that has great game against me, and then a stompy deck with all sorts of nasty lock pieces to keep me out of the tourney.  However, I ended up beating CS, Oath, Salvagers, TPS afterwards, which is what I intended the deck to do, so I cannot fault my deck for my results.  

I really liked the metagame that did show up though, it was much more varied than the tourney a month ago at whos on first.  The one card I noticed that showed up much more than I expected was Chalice of the Void, it seemed that 90% of the matches I watched had them at least after game 1 and several including my own 7/10 deck and my buddy Tony's 7/10 deck both ran them main deck, its a great card choice and it makes for wonderful game play.

Props:

Kevin for going 4-0 the first 4 rounds and listening to me about dropping the red.

Salvager decks for taking the day

the winner for not trading his new pearl for two italian drains (that would of been a terrible deal, regardless if web needed the cash real bad)

Eudemonia for running the series, we really do appreciate it, and I hope all of the rest go as well as this first one, you guys kept things on time and orderly, great job.

Slops:

My matchups the first two rounds  Rolling Eyes (although I didnt test for the stompy kind of matchup so its really my fault, I wasnt ready for rootmaze action turn 1 in both the games I lost to it, and winter orb following it up is ugly, good job though on the deck jesse)

Kinda the head judge (although you know I still have love for ya) for making a terrible call on the interactivity of sphere of resistance and trinisphere (I hope that guy didnt lose) But thank you for judging T1 for us, I know your really used to T2

30 minute lunch breaks for sucking for control players who go to time that round.

Eudemonia for only doing cuts to top 4, I would love to see top 8s more especially if the sapphire/recall/walk/lotus tournies get more people (keep it in mind at least)
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2005, 03:16:48 pm »

congratulations! There's alot of great players yesterday but i didnt get to play you. i went 3-1-2 and got 8th place. i was playing contro-slaver. i think there's only few similiar decks there. i lost to david in the mirror match in the last round. man he's really good player and he's so good at topdecking. looks like i need to make some changes in my main deck, cuz he always outdraw me in the both games. im looking forward in the next power nine tournament 2 weeks from now. i hope to see your guys there again.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2005, 03:43:11 pm »

Quote from: jpmeyer
Since you have a Blessing maindeck (rather than either nothing or Krosan Reclamation), do you often need to go off in response to the Blessing trigger?


This happens a lot. It is actually Best Option #2.  Best Option #1 is if Blessing doesn't trigger and I get all my combo peices in the yard, waiting to be Salvaged.

The only issue is if I do something like Orchard, Mox, Oath, go, and they waste my Orchard.  Then it comes down to whether or not I have a fetchland in hand or Tundra or the like.

Thanks for all the great comments, guys.
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2005, 04:18:10 pm »

Yea, I was pretty tired at the end of everything. I actually made 2 mistakes in game 2:

1. When we got into that counterwar on your turn over the tinker, I should have waited a few turns to cast the thirst for knowledge. The percentage of drawing force, blue card, artifact were just too low.

2. I should have welded the challice out for something EOT the turn you played it so I could stop your lotus recursion. Welding in chalice = you lose.

Although losing the first round was a real bummer especially since this tournament was having a cut to top 4 instead of top 8, I did have a lot of fun getting to play against TPS and 3 control mirrors.

Maybe I'll consider getting a few more hours of sleep next time when playing 18 rounds of magic in less than 36 hours.


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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2005, 02:17:19 am »

This deck has a way out against Chalice for zero, aside from Wish targets.  Engineered Explosives can be set to zero, using colorless mana (I had Sol Ring and Mana Crypt out), ridding the field of 0cc stuff. I belive the explosives were in my yard.  

Of course, the Chalice and Explosives are only in the deck when the Trinket Mages are in it, usually not in the Oath setup.

I am now testing Scrabbling Claws in place of Conjurer's Bauble as it is technically a spellbomb, of sorts and hence a weak ass draw engine when all else fails.

Great times.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2005, 03:16:50 am »

You did not have enough mana to play salvagers, salvage the explosives, play explosives with 1 generic mana, and have 2 open still.

I am 100% sure of this.

In any case, it is irrelevant arguing about it. Enjoy your mox.


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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 03:28:50 am »

Quote from: LotusHead
This deck has a way out against Chalice for zero, aside from Wish targets.  Engineered Explosives can be set to zero, using colorless mana (I had Sol Ring and Mana Crypt out), ridding the field of 0cc stuff. I belive the explosives were in my yard.  

I only mentioned this due to the Chalice for zero equals game over comment.  

I mentioned earlier in my original post that I may not have all the details totally accurate.

All I know is that when I comboed off, I got my Lotus Back, which gives me an arbitrarily large amount of colored mana and I can do whatever I want.

I frankly don't remember the game state, except that I was COMPLETELY shocked to Brainstorm into a Trinket Mage that I put back there either earlier that turn or the previous turn.

I was desperate.

Vegeta2711 or whatnot said that there are many types of decks and/or players out there, and that some players should stick to mastering a certain kind of deck against all other decks.  He loves goblins, but in Vintage, I will probably forever be a Salvager player (even though I am currently sold on Oath/Salvagers).

And thanks Webster, I do enjoy this Mox. Till we meet again.  Smile
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 10:33:54 am »

I just wanted to say congratulations.  You've convinced me to watch this deck much more closely (at least over the Spirit/Angel version).

Scrabbling Claws seems like an excellent idea.
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2005, 06:41:54 pm »

Eudemonia was happy to have you guys and looks forward to seeing you again. We have all the top 8 decklists and more info on our page. www.eudemonia.net/p9

Also due to popular opinion we're probably going to be cutting to the Top8 in the future rather then the Top4.

-AxeMurder |-}
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2005, 11:55:06 pm »

Quote from: VGB
I just wanted to say congratulations.  You've convinced me to watch this deck much more closely (at least over the Spirit/Angel version).

Scrabbling Claws seems like an excellent idea.


Thanks. All of the Salvager builds that have done well recentley are completely different builds, with or without Trinket Mages or Oaths.

But Oath Salvager decks work differently than say, DOA or Meandeck Oath, or anything with the Spirit/Angel/etc as it's kill.  Those decks BANK on Oath/Orchard, and Hardcast their threats once per millenium.

The Oath Salvager builds treat Oath of Druids to be Salvagers 3-6 for 1G each.

Hardcasting a Salvager is no problem.

Again, thanks for the congrats. I promised that I would never start a thread about anything remotely Salvagers until I won something cool.  I am still scarred by the "incident" last July/August.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2005, 03:47:29 pm »

As I have not had the chance to talk to Kevin more about how he felt his deck played, I was curious about your answers to cards such as the planar voids he was playing or say ground seal.  I understand that you have EE to try to get rid of them, or wish for a good enchantment breaking card, but do you feel you have a consistent chance to resolve one of those spells, for example, against a deck like Kevins 3cc?  Against an aggroish build running ground seal or such, resolving an EE is easy, but against a deck with the same amount of counter magic (and especially since planar void comes down first turn) Is this the weakest aspect of your deck? I really do like the build, and I am curious about some of the finer aspects and I would love to get some ideas about how you personally feel about certain matchups (dont worry I have no intention of running a deck like Kevins, I helped with the ideas, but its really really not my style)

And again congrats, and hopefully I will see you at all the future events.


PS thanks Eudemonia for listening and switching to top 8.
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2005, 04:20:02 pm »

Playing against Kevin's 3cControl deck was a nightmare.  He had the Library, Go start, followed by Ancestral targetting himself.  He owned me.

The only real discussion is about game 2 post board.  

He showed me his boarded in Planar Voids after he trounced me game 2, and I think 3 other hate cards (4 Voids and 3 Something Else).

In answer to your question, What Can I Do About The Hate in a counterspell filled deck?  What do I do if I just can't combo off? Same thing I did to deal with Fish.  Tinker for Colossus is my main out.  Fight back with my own draw and tinker tinker tinker.

I am a believer in Tinker for Colossus maindeck for that very reason.

As for what to do about Planar Void coming down game two, turn 1.  If I feel that Graveyard Hate or specific Oath Hate is being boarded in against me, then I ditch my Oath build for the Trinket Mage build.  Namely...

4 Trinket Mages
4 Auriok Salvagers
1 Tinker
1 Colossus
Counters/Draws/Wishes

These cards can use the attack step and beatdown on an opponent regardless of the Planar Void thing.

The Engineered Explosives, Chalice, and basically every artifact in my deck (sans Colossus) is fetched with a Trinket Mage.  They are Grey Ogres that cantrip Power or Utility artifacts. It's like I have 5 Chalice of the Void/5 Explosives/5 Black Lotuses in the deck. In fact, I used to run Future Sight since I always got a Black Lotus with my Trinket Mages.

My deck has all the fun blue spells that his deck had, but he got his blue spells to resolve first.  Should I have waited until I had double Force backup?  I don't know.  I wasn't thinking straight.  I really do run on caffeine.

Kevin obviously did beat my plan by countering my early Trinket Mage, and won the counter war.  That's how it goes sometimes.

Again, he trounced me.

As far as the Finer Aspects of the deck? It's all about getting a Salvager on the field.  I use Oath for now game 1. Because Salvagers is inherently a combo deck, I can often "just win" when the Salvager hits the field.  Plus there are many many many topdecks into the win with Salvagers on the board.

Check out "SlapJack" tourney threads from last July/August for the evolution of my build if you wanna see combat results examples and card choices.  They are in Open and Newbie forums.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2005, 05:03:48 pm »

How does Planar Void stop the combo?

Short answer, it doesn't.

If you Oath up Salvagers and have Lotus/LED in the yard and {1}{W} open, then there's your infinite mana.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2005, 07:45:31 pm »

VGB, if you "oath up the combo" with plan void in play, all of your pieces are RFG, not in your yard, thus your combo is irrelevant. I was asking about first turn planar void, going first. obviously if you can get all of your pieces in the yard nothing short of ground seal will do the job, but an early void, BEFORE you get stuff in the yard, was the question at hand. Please try to pay attention...

I suppose we could go into if void is in play, the first time you break that lotus for infinite mana, your losing that lotus with the void in play, and thus it cannot be brought back with the salvagers, same goes with spell bomb, bauble, claws, etc, etc etc...

I was asking what were the methods of getting around void, if it can ACTUALLY be played through, or if it must be destroyed before you have a kill.  LotusHead answered back with tinker for DS collosus, but even here, a deck like Kevins 3cc packs STP to deal with something like him, and trinket mages and salvagers simply will not stand up to angels and negators, and meddling mage even coming down.  I simply think it is a bad matchup for the deck (not to take anything at all away from the overall deck build, I really like it as I am a combo player at heart)
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2005, 08:24:55 pm »

I believe the rule you're looking for is this one:

217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects that edit the characteristics of an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell on the stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates, and abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play”) can find the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2005, 09:42:52 pm »

so what you are saying is that, in response to planar void moving lotus to the yard, you can bring it back? the wording on that seems odd, as you are relating triggered abilities to the activated ability of salvagers, rancors ability is triggered when it hits the yard, I get that, if that applies to salvagers activated ability, then I stand corrected....

the wording seems to apply that exception ONLY to triggered abilities applying to something hitting the yard (such as rancor or collosus) the ruling makes no mention of allowing a card to be brought back with an outside activated ability.

If I am still reading the ruling wrong then at least I do get to learn something new, and maybe they could add that to the rules text. The salvager player would still have to play correctly, and could only activate the lotus on the turn he/she is trying to "go off" otherwise it would go bye bye.


*edit*
 the judge on star city games seems to have answered my question in a tog question.  Yes it does apply to triggered abilities, lotus going to the yard is on stack bottom, then void triggers and is on the stack, you can then apply an activated ability.  Chalk one up to me not reading the rules right. sorry guys.  I do still see the void as strong though, as it stops all early activations of lotus and spellbombs, etc. I believe I was thinking planar void read like samurai of the pale curtain.  

so to ask another question how would you deal with the samurai that WW deck was running if that got resolved?
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2005, 09:49:19 pm »

Planar Void is a triggered ability. You can respond to the 'Void trigger with a Salvagers activation.
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2005, 01:31:03 am »

Props on the win man.  

I was planning on bringing a very similar deck to that tourney, but because I suck.... I couldn't make it.  I thought the tourney was on Saturday, so I asked for it off.  Then comes friday, I go look up the directions to Eudemonia and glance at the tourney announcement.  Oh shat..... it's on Sunday and I have to work.  Ruined my whole goddam weekend.

Glad someone with Oath/Salvagers put up the numbers for me.  Nice work.

-Joe
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2005, 02:33:44 am »

Quote from: Lunar


so to ask another question how would you deal with the samurai that WW deck was running if that got resolved?


With the Samurai question, they resolved in game 3. Chalice for 2 kept 80% of his deck in check (it seemed), but they were a real threat.  In my report, I went into some detail in how badly I played.

But, if ONE Samurai is in play, then I can kill it with a Pyrite (which is RFG) and combo off with another spellbomb and go for the Cunning Wish Brain Freeze kill. or Bounce it with Aether Spellbomb (RFG) and continue with the Pyrite Plan.

White Weenie wasn't really part of my testing gauntlet, I will admit.  I usually test against Welder Decks, Mana Drain Decks and Trinisphere Decks.

Echoing Truth or Capsize may reapear in my sideboard as those Samurai pissed me off.

Did I answer your question enough?

Kevin's deck could abuse Planar Void because it apparently doesn't care about the Graveyard unless Yawmoth's Will is a factor.  Most decks aren't like that.
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2005, 02:56:29 am »

The three other cards sided in were the Arcane Labs.  I played both to work together to keep the combo parts in check.  The Void gets the early stuff with Duress and counters.  He has to deal with the Lab to go off.  Meddling Mage completes the trio and requires Engineered Explosives for 1, 2 and 3 casting cost.  Or Wish bounce.


Congrats on the win!

See you at future events.

K
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2005, 03:35:14 am »

Harsh! Void? Mage? Lab?

I have dealt with Arcane Lab before, and beating down with my Trinket Mages were pretty effective, as (at the time) I could counter their answer to Trinket Mages.  But having 2 or 3 of these out is just mean.

but...technically, Explosives deal with Planar Void or Arcane Laboratory, AEther Spellbomb can deal with Meddling Mage, and Chain of Vapor could deal with Void/Lab.  Pretty scary though.

Great build.  I secretly Jinxed your deck for the rest of the tourney so I wouldn't have to see it again.  Was that unethical? (mmmmmaybe).

Your sideboard plan against combo was definately effective, but none saw play.  You just owned me by either getting Gawd Draws or well, having your deck work the way it is supposed to.
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2005, 11:19:10 am »

Yes, the question was answered well.

so one more question for ya  Cool

which do you feel is a worse matchup overall (granted you beat one and lost to the other) the W/u weenie deck or the 3cc deck?  In a series of games for example.

Beyond that, how do you feel about other combo matchups? your deck seems to be quite stable with the amount of counter magic, but in light of trinispheres going the way of the dodo do you feel your deck is going to be optimal in a meta where combo will be extreemly heavey (I think it will at least for the emerald tournie after restrictions happen) Decks like Belcher and various Tendrils decks seem like they will all be better choices without trinisphere, even decks like kobolds might make an appearance with players getting up the guts to try it without trini around.  Also, (I love compound questions, can you tell?) What kind of speed are you looking for in an opening hand, do you keep a hand that may not win until after turn 5 or 6 as long as it has a heavy control element? or would you rather see a straight combo type hand that can win say turn 2 or 3 with an oath activation (or other such win type) I ask simply for mathcup analysis. Does the deck try and run more like TPS does and sit still until turn 4 and play the stability game? or does it want to be more of a DeathLong or MeandeckTendrils and try for a turn 1 or 2 type kill? I think this would be an important factor in deciding matchups against TPS, FCG, and Dragon, where their win is most likely not going to happen until at least turn 3.  How do you feel about these matchups?

ps sorry about the long posts. (but im interested)
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2005, 01:33:40 pm »

The 4 Swords, 4 Drain, 4 Force 4 Strip 3cc Control deck is by far scarrier than any W/u Weenie hate deck.


As far as outracing other combos, well...I feel that my decks is just as fast as their combo decks and many of my combo peices (in the Trinket Mage build) are Duress proof, for example.  I have played against a Kobolds build and two Belcher builds and Dragon many a time.  

As for what speed I am looking for in openning hands, its all about Blue Cards and Mana Bases.  I can get some really fun Gawd Hands, and my deck CAN win turn 1 with Force of Will backup (Lotus, Land, Crypt,Spellbomb, Salvagers, Force, Blue Spell), but that isn't the game plan.

Against an unknown opponent, game 1 I keep a hand if I have Buisiness and Mana.

Against a known opponent, I might mulligan more aggressively.  I mulled to 4 agaisnt TPS and won.  


I am more than happy to sit there and do the land, go thing, as long as my opponent doesn't start with Library, Go thing.  That pisses me off.

As a combo player, I am really just concerned with having at least 1 life and a turn I can make my own desicions on.  At 2 life, I can still pitch to FoW and pop fetches.

Keep in mind that the Trinket Mage build was my primary build for 6 solid months.  The Oath of Druids thing I only just started doing.  I like it, but I like my Trinket Mages too.

Thanks for all the comments and questions.  I can't really go into every matchup, because I don't proxy up every deck out there, and I have to drive 50+ miles to the nearest T1 tourney.  

But I will continue to answer any specific questions.
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2005, 08:41:35 pm »

I WISH I only had to go 50 miles.  Berkely is around 100 Miles for me, and Dublin is even worse, still it is worth it to get some real T1 games in.

Thanks for the info on your deck..

PS as for deck desting, magic workstation can be very helpful in that respect (it is especially informative playing against european players, they really do have a different style of play) The quality is not always high for skill, but you can always get the full version and test against other decks by yourself.
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2005, 03:01:01 pm »

I am loving this deck.  I am taking it to a local tourney this Sat.  I changed it a bit, but didn't have room for tinker or DS.  I went with Intution AK draw engine in here as well.  Do you think The tinker was really needed?  My SB plan is to transform into Std oath with a varitiy of SB creatures.  And with 2 cunning wish MD I will have some wish answers as well.  I have am also going to run it without blessing md as I feel it's unneeded.  It will be SB for when I go with traditional oath.  Any thoughts?  Did you feel your SB was good or do you just LOVE your Trinkets.  Seemed to me you liked them a bit too much, but then again I didn't test this ever with out oath engine like you did.  Holler Back
Than ks
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