Fall-Titan
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« on: March 10, 2005, 12:09:17 pm » |
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I was trying to think of black card that could allow a player to take extra turns. Final Fortune has proven that this effect is not automatically blue so heres my shot.
(1)BBB-Diminishing Greed
Enchantment
Diminishing Greed comes into play with 3 death counters on it.
Pay Half your life rounded up, take an additional turn after this one.
At the begginning of your upkeep remove a death counter from Diminishing Greed. At the end of your turn if there are no death counters on Diminishing Greed you lose the game. If Diminishing Greed leaves play you lose the game.
The only thing im not sure about is the mana cost. It might only need to cost BBB with these drawbacks but im leaning towards the 4cc maybe even 5cc version simply because this is good in combo. Thoughts?
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2005, 12:10:26 pm » |
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Current Wording
Diminishing Greed
BBB-Sorcery
As an additional cost to play Diminishing Greed, pay half your life rounded up: Take an extra turn after this one.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2005, 01:36:52 pm » |
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This is hideously overcomplicated. Why not just:
BBB
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one. You lose half your life, rounded up.
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Alfred
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2005, 02:39:33 pm » |
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I like Jacob's suggestion, because it takes the interesting part (paying life for turns) and leaves out the ridiculously complicated parts. If you wanted to keep this as an enchantment, why not do something like this:
1BBB
Pay 10 Life: Take and extra turn after this one.
This way, it kills you if you use it the second time, unless you have life gain (which is awful).
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2005, 04:41:00 pm » |
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I know it was complicated but i was trying to find a way to put take extra turn flavor into an enchantment. Basically all that meant was pay half your life-take an extra turn. You cant use this more than 3 times. If it leaves play u lose. Jacobs version is more like a timewalk or final fortune. This card had more flavor in the way of timevault. Maybe i can simplify is by removing the comes into play with counters effect but i dotn know if its too good after that. And in standard any card that said pay 10 life: take an extra turn after this one would be ridiculously broken because lifegain is easier to use and basically if this hits play u win the game.
What if i made it simpler and used an old mechanic to justify it like so...
Diminishing Greed
(1)BBB-Enchantment
Fading 3
Pay Half Your life rounded up: Take an extra turn after this one.
If Diminishing Greed leaves play, You Lose the game.
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Gleemax
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2005, 05:16:37 pm » |
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In this manner, it looks like 1BBB: Take three extra turns after this one. After the third turn, you lose the game.
To me, that seems broken. I'm sure it would be abused somehow; but the problem with extra-turn cards is that they are either overpowered or overcosted. Now, it does leave you with only two life if you're at twenty when you cast this, but it kills you anyway, making the life loss part almost irrelevant.
I don't really know how I would fix it, because of the delicate balance which needs to be struck. Maybe, instead of losing the game after the turns, you could "merely" discard your hand before they began?
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Charlie
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2005, 09:44:58 pm » |
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So triple time walk for only 4? Even if you make them can't draw with Bargain/can't take the pain from City of Brass it's still ridculously broken
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Ephraim
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2005, 10:22:31 am » |
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Of the various suggestions that have been made, I think that Jacob Orlove's is the most reasonable. On the other hand, I'm not sure if its cost is high enough, either. Compared to RR, lose the game after your extra turn, BBB, lose half your life doesn't really seem all that steep to me. Sure, Final Fortune was reprinted in 7th, but that was actually quite a while ago. I think they've actually tightened down on blue's mechanics since then, (yes, I'm aware of Timesifter, but it's theoretically symmetrical) so we ought to be careful about how liberally we give blue's stable mechanics to the other colours.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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wonkey_donkey
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2005, 01:31:41 pm » |
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Of the various suggestions that have been made, I think that Jacob Orlove's is the most reasonable. On the other hand, I'm not sure if its cost is high enough, either. Compared to RR, lose the game after your extra turn, BBB, lose half your life doesn't really seem all that steep to me. Sure, Final Fortune was reprinted in 7th, but that was actually quite a while ago. I think they've actually tightened down on blue's mechanics since then, (yes, I'm aware of Timesifter, but it's theoretically symmetrical) so we ought to be careful about how liberally we give blue's stable mechanics to the other colours. So how about we tack an "Any player may play this ability" clause on the end of it? A card like [card]Lethal Vapors[/card] sets a precedent of sorts with this, although it's questionable as to whether this would be either massively over- or under-powered. EDIT: My bad. I thought it was still an enchantment, although I don't seem to be the only one confused judging by some of the posting in here! My card's still quite interesting, though... Tom |
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2005, 03:18:32 pm » |
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Of the various suggestions that have been made, I think that Jacob Orlove's is the most reasonable. On the other hand, I'm not sure if its cost is high enough, either. Compared to RR, lose the game after your extra turn, BBB, lose half your life doesn't really seem all that steep to me. Sure, Final Fortune was reprinted in 7th, but that was actually quite a while ago. I think they've actually tightened down on blue's mechanics since then, (yes, I'm aware of Timesifter, but it's theoretically symmetrical) so we ought to be careful about how liberally we give blue's stable mechanics to the other colours. Comparing Infernal Contract to Opportunity (or even better, to the 3UU sorcery speed version from portal), and my suggestion to Time Warp shows, I think, that it's fairly costed. You're underestimating the difference between two colored mana and three. |
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2005, 06:59:16 pm » |
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I think if it must go into sorcery form then jacobs is fine. You are merely gaining an addtional turn which alot of the time is draw a card and untap. So paying half of your life and costing 3 black is fair drawbacks. It would not be put into every deck that ran black. Hell, timewalk isnt used in every blue deck and it is way effecient. So good...yes, Broken...no
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combo_dude
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2005, 07:06:49 pm » |
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Comparing this to Time Walk and saying this is not broken is ridiculous.
This IS broken in any sort of non-T1 format. Drop this turn 4 with a couple of creatures, suppose you're on (say) 8 life (you've been attacked a bit). This means you can still get 3 turns more out of this thing, which should be plenty to win. If you're playing a control deck, then you may well have 16, which is four more turns. Most importantly, this is four mana - the same cost as Wrath of God. You play first and drop this turn 4; they've planned on Wrathing to stablize. This just upsets the balance too much. Make this 2BBB and it may almost - almost - be OK. Or make it Fading 4 and have the cost "Remove a fade counter from {this}, Pay half your life, rounded up" instead.
Jacob's version, on the other hand, is acceptable (although pushing it a little in Vintage since three coloured mana is nothing to Dark Rit...I mean, Black), although to nitpick it would template as "As an additional cost to play...".
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Ephraim
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2005, 01:49:02 am » |
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Of the various suggestions that have been made, I think that Jacob Orlove's is the most reasonable. On the other hand, I'm not sure if its cost is high enough, either. Compared to RR, lose the game after your extra turn, BBB, lose half your life doesn't really seem all that steep to me. Sure, Final Fortune was reprinted in 7th, but that was actually quite a while ago. I think they've actually tightened down on blue's mechanics since then, (yes, I'm aware of Timesifter, but it's theoretically symmetrical) so we ought to be careful about how liberally we give blue's stable mechanics to the other colours. Comparing Infernal Contract to Opportunity (or even better, to the 3UU sorcery speed version from portal), and my suggestion to Time Warp shows, I think, that it's fairly costed. You're underestimating the difference between two colored mana and three. Fair enough. I won't complain too loudly, if this goes ahead, with your suggestions implemented. I just wanted to note that it didn't seem quite equivalent to Final Fortune to me. I do think it bears noting that Vintage players may have a slightly skewed perception of the value of an extra turn. I've heard some people mention before that Time Walk can be weak since sometimes, it's just a cantrip. In many formats, though, it's a cantrip, a Relentless Assault, and Rude Awakening, all in one. The value of an extra turn can't be downplayed. |
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2005, 04:49:31 pm » |
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I don't think it's necessary for the life loss to be an additional cost. Also, you should use proper formatting for the current wording, and most of those words should NOT be capitalized.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
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Fall-Titan
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Posts: 142
It was cold..... I was lonely
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2005, 03:00:19 pm » |
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Sorry about that i dont know why i capitalized most of those words. Also i dont think that the paying of life should be an additional cost either but most of the other people did.
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combo_dude
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2005, 05:57:46 pm » |
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It doesn't have to be, it's just that the modern templates use that where possible (compare the Tempest [card]Harrow[/card] to the Invasion one, for example).
Anyone else feel that this is still broken?
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Matt
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2005, 11:22:20 pm » |
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Is there any real reason this deserves to be black? Seeing as this has never been black before (and with one exception never anything but blue) I don't see why this shouldn't have a more in-color effect.
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2005, 01:08:19 pm » |
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@Combo_Dude
The reason it cant be as an additional cost is because if this gets counter then you just payed half your life for nothing which is a signifigant drawback. Then again that may be what this card needs to not be broken.
@Matt
Some colors shar some things in common. For instance white and blue have the flyers and the tap effects. And black and blue have draw power. I figured this could compliment the blue to black draw power transition. (Blue isnt losing draw but black is gaining it). Plus it has a staple black effect on it in the pay half your life ability. Look at the recent black tutors and draw... They all have the player pay life. I dont think the effect is out of place. Its just the first black spell to do this so it looks a little funny.
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2005, 01:45:41 pm » |
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I'm not objecting to the life payment.
Taking extra turns has never been black, though, and it hasn't been something that's shared between colors either. It has ALWAYS been blue, with only two exceptions - Timesifter and Final Fortune. And again excusing Final Fortune, the effect of taking extra turns has always been characterized as finagling with time, which is something that black has never done.
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Fall-Titan
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It was cold..... I was lonely
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2005, 09:08:18 pm » |
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I understand that blue is the primary color for the effect but what about the artifacts.
Magistrate Scepter as well as timevault give the effect to any color willing to play the cards. I could turn this into an atrifact with a black activation effect but it may look janky.
Diminishing Greed
(3) Artifact
Diminishing Greed comes into play tapped
B (T) : Sacrifice Diminishing Greed, Pay half your life rounded up, Take an extra turn after this one.
Thats the same card in artifact mode. It has black activation still making it a blackish card but allowing other colors to play with it. Being an artifact makes it susceptible to hate and the effect has to be delayed a turn so that workshop doesnt abuse it. Is this better Matt or do you think it should not have anything to do with black even in the slight sense of activation cost?
If the card ends up not being black then i would like for it to be an artifact like this maybe with a different sctivation cost.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2005, 11:35:08 pm » |
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Don't forget about Seedtime, Matt. If it is fair and appropriate that green and red, blue's enemies, are allowed to have this blue effect with a drawback, I see no reason why one (or both) of blue's allies shouldn't also have this blue effect with a drawback.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Fall-Titan
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It was cold..... I was lonely
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2005, 10:27:40 pm » |
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Ok anymore ideas before sending this away to the master list?
24 HOUR CLOCK
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combo_dude
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2005, 10:42:53 am » |
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Once again, I still don't like this. Especially now that Matt has brought up the colour issue.
And I think that they changed the templating so that it doesn't look like you can do it over and over again, but it would still be broken however you template this. I just think that it should be templated as most cards are nowadays.
In short, there's no reason why it "can't" be an additional cost. I mean, look at [card]Tinker[/card]. And it's too strong.
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Fall-Titan
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2005, 02:36:38 pm » |
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I honestly dont see this card as being broken but if it would make the card less "broken" tot hose of you who think it is ill change it to being As an additional cost so the user runs the risk of paying half of their life for nothing. This card would be restricted in type 1 and in type 2 three black mana isnt exactly easy to achieve. Do we still have a debate over its power or is it balanced enough yet?
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stolen
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2005, 11:57:29 am » |
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Why is this still called "Diminishing Greed"?
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Fall-Titan
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It was cold..... I was lonely
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« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2005, 11:08:43 pm » |
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Good point. now that it no longer is an enchantment should it be called like
Blind Greed
Ignorant Greed
Something else... any suggestions?
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