What cards are surprisingly BAD in Vintage?

[Zanlurker]

Here's the point:

I'm returning to Vintage (we old folks still prefer Type I) after many years, during which I've still been playing Type II and Extended.

After reading the forum for a few hours, it's easy to see what is GOOD in Vintage these days, but it would help me develop better decks if I could learn what cards are BAD in Vintage.

In particular, what are the kinds of cards that might have been good in Type I a LONG TIME AGO but are no longer preferred, like Kird Ape or other such old school goodies.

Just as importantly, what are the cards that are FAMOUSLY GOOD in Type II or Extended that are just plain average or WORSE in Vintage?

Please and thank you.

[Toad]

Just off the top of my head ...

* Extended bombs that are average or worse in Vintage

Aluren
Living Wish
Whipcorder
Ravenous Baloth
Isochron Scepter
Cursed Scroll
Jackal Pup
Blistering Firecat

* Standard bombs that are average or worse in Vintage

Kokusho, the Evening Star
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Death Cloud
Tooth and Nails
Arc Slogger

* Old good Vintage cards that are now average or worse

Nether Void
The Abyss
Moat
Kird Ape
Serendib Efreet
Morphling
Nantuko Shade
Hymn to Tourach
Rogue Elephant

[Bram]

In the second category, I guess there's Skullclamp. Banned in every format (that's right...every sactioned constructed format) except for Vintage and hardly playable there. While I am aware of the reasons for this (it boils down to 'I have to play with a significant number of bad cards to make this work') I still feel there's potential there. Long's Suicide Virus will not break the format like 'his' last Vintage deck, but it should be able to post better results than it does now.

[Disburden]

It's good to see you're interested in Vintage again. Kird ape is still good, im my opinion . R/G tempo decks use them still to this day.
 To answer your question I would say there's so many cards in Standard that are just plain unplayable in type one it's almost overwhelming to find good cards in new sets. There is an exception with mirrodin block which gave us so many neat tools (mindslaver, trinisphere, etc). The kamigawa block on the other hand, just plain sucks and isn't worth looking at most of the time (there is some interesting cards, but most of them are useless or do things other old school type one cards  already do but for alot more in casting cost and drawbacks).
 One card that is very good in Standard ( and I love the deck based around it) is tooth and Nail. This card is great in standard, but is useless in our format. Affinity was great in T2 before it was banned recently, it just dominated the format and some Vintage players are trying to break it into our style but it just doesn't seem that super powerful like it is in Standad. There are so many cards that are good in vintage and alot more newer cards that are BAD in vintage, my only suggestion would be to keep a lookout on this site and StarCityGames.com to see what decks are out there that use the newer sets and what cards that used to be viable just aren't seen anymore.

[warble]

I saw a post earlier, and I have to say these cards are NOT bad in Vintage.  They actually rock:

1 of just won a power with
Isochron Scepter (try to imprint ancestral/tutor/fire/ice and tell me that's bad)

Aggro Red or R/G
Cursed Scroll
Jackal Pup
Kird Ape

Mono-blue
Morphling

Mono-Black
Nantuko Shade
Hymn to Tourach
Nether Void

I can't say that I would ever play mono-blue or mono-black or enter a tourney with r/g aggro but they aren't bad cards, those you listed are, let's see, oh yeah THE cards that make those decks PLAYABLE.  So don't call them bad cards, they're the friggin BOMB in vintage it's just that you have to absolutely love the color and the deck has to be metagamed perfectly to win with those cards.  Unlike control slaver that can win with good play and no metagame at all.

[AnFgangsta]

Feel free to correct me if Im wrong Toad but I think maybe you meant cards that are not as effective as they USED to be.  

This would make a lot more sense when applied to vintage when talking about Jackal Pup - Cursed Scroll(obviously meaning sligh has taken a nose dive), Rogue Elephant (Obviously stompy although I dont think I would consider this deck to have been amazing anyways), Kird Ape-Serendib for Zoo, Hymn To Tourach-Nantuko Shade obviously referring to Suicide Black which died out also and finally Morphling-Moat-Abyss-Maybe Iso Sceptre being old Keeper, which I still love but will admit it has lost some of its funk over time and evolved a great deal to compliment the meta.

As for stuff from II and extended that were good at one point, Ill have to take Toad's word here because I am not too familiar with those formats, hard to keep up, so I just mentioned the cards in respect to Type 1.

[kirdape3]

I probably wouldn't play Jackal Pup in this format if you held a gun to my head.  It doesn't kill anything but the opponent and it's nowhere near fast enough in this field of turn 4-5 wins from control decks.  Same with Kird Ape, Nantuko Shade, Nether Void, Hymn to Tourach, Morphling, Cursed Scroll.  The ONLY card that may be strong enough is Isochron Scepter, and that's borderline.

I'd add a lot of the older Standard bomb creatures (Ramosian Sergeant, Ball Lightning, Phyrexian Processor, etc) to that mix as well.

[Shock Wave]

Most vanilla creatures just don't cut it anymore, even if they cost R for a 2/3, aka Kird Ape. Your creatures have to actually DO something in order for any aggro strategy to work.

[Zanlurker]

Super helpful, EVERYONE. I really appreciate the insight.

Toad, thanks for starting the conversation with your list, it was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

Now I just need to REINVEST in some power nine...

[dandan]

Not as good as they were - Multilands
Much better than they were - Basic lands

Fetchlands and Crucible Of Worlds have focused us on this although the rise of Workshop and to a lesser extent Bazaar have caused 5 strip effects to become far more common (and the improved deck designs have tended to use 5 strip effects were possible too).

This really is a huge change.

Obviously old bombs like Braingeyser, Stroke, Tome and COP Red are no longer seen in Vintage. Impulse has also gone the way of the dodo although I can imagine it returning.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Hopefully this won't start a heated discussion, but I'm going to list some cards that have been played in good decks over the last few months, but I feel are almost on the verge of extinction because the format has sped up so much:

Survival of the Fittest
Illusionary Mask
Isochron Scepter
Decree of Silence
Ophidian

The cards are inherently powerful no doubt, but I'm always disappointed when I try to build decks around them.

[Tristal]

What did Decree of Silence get played in?

[E Face]

I actually love Serendib Efreet, he's a fun card and may be under the radar just looking for a deck to use him in (i.e. Nimble Mongoose and Werebear finding homes in Bird Shit).

And I'm going to assume that GI was talking about Decree of Justice, but hey, I could be wrong. But I do agree with him on Survival and Phid. Survival toolbox based decks are way to slow for the format right now, and Phid seems to come online a few turns to late, as Fish showed us.

Like Disburden said earlier, the entire Affinity mechanic that wrecked house for awhile never really dropped its bombshell on Type One. It got some attention, had a few lists, but never became a force to be reckoned with.

Also, Reanimator style decks and the nifty Life.dec that are popular right now in Extended aren't exactly up to par with the level of power T1 has.

[jpmeyer]

Sylvan Library