[Premium Article] Having Fun with White Cards in Type One

[Toad]

Having Fun with White Cards in Type One - Introducing a New Auriok Salvagers-Based Control-Combo deck

It's a Premium Article. No idea why

The article is about the design of a Gifts Ungiven based Auriok Salvagers deck I have been testing since November with our beloved Germans Stefan Iwasienko (Womprax) and Kim Klück (Shades), with comments about the deck developping process (including a rejected Charbelcher build) around Gifts Ungiven, a card analysis and some matchup reviews.

Ever since Champions of Kamigawa got released, Gifts Ungiven has been having all my attention. Gifts Ungiven was originally seen as a weaker Intuition - for the inability to tutor for Accumulated Knowledge or a 3-off as well as for the increased mana cost - and a weaker Fact or Fiction - for digging less cards and letting the opponent choose the cards you get in hand. By that time, MeanDeck was starting to work on a Gifts Ungiven based deck. Jaypee was the first to publish a Gifts Ungiven based Psychatog deck (October 2004), a UBr build that was quite like the conventional Psychatog builds, except It could randomly pull turn 2 or 3 kills, unlike Tog. That deck was extremely focused on Yawgmoth's Will and used Recoup to maximize the Gifts Ungiven tutoring power. Meanwhile, the Germans from Team CAB where actively working on a Gifts Ungiven deck too ...

Decklists are not premium.
-Jacob

// Mana Sources
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

// Deck Engine
3 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Auriok Salvagers

// Draw and Tutors
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Skeletal Scrying

// Disruption and Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress

// Sideboard
2 Disenchant (Dismantling Blow)
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor (Skeletal Scrying)
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Shallow Grave
1 Echoing Truth (Ray of Revelation, Capsize)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Coffin Purge
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Library of Alexandria (Mind Twist)
1 Balance (Aether Spellbomb)
1 Duress (Cranial Extraction)

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Oh man, this deck looks awesome.  I can finally play a deck using gifts that isn't TPS. Good work! Phyrexian furnace looks hot (even though it can't draw your entire deck). Anyways, what do you do against GY hate? it seems to be more and more popular with the rise of Slaver. Do you just wait till you have enough mana to return lotus twice (or wait to get wish)? It seems losing lotus means you have no way of winning other than swinging in with the salvagers.

Anyways, great article!

-Bob

[Toad]

Phyrexian Furnace *usually* draws your deck. Even if you go off right after the Gifts Ungiven with a previously empty graveyard, you'll still get to draw at least 3 cards (Gifts Ungiven + the 2 other cards). A single Thirst for Knowledge will net you 6 cards. The impression you have about Phyrexian Furnace is quite common though. In hundred games, I've never fizzled due to not being able to draw enough cards off Phyrexian Furnace. I've even pulled first or second turn kills out of first turn Auriok Salvagers + Black Lotus with a single Brainstorm or Gifts Ungiven in hand as a draw spell other than Phyrexian Furnace. Your engine dumps a lot of cards.

Phyrexian Furnace is my current "BEST.CARD.EVER"

Graveyard hate is usually not an issue pre board. Post board, you have to be quite more conservative with your Black Lotus if you expect serious graveyard hate. The best plan is to go off with 2WW open to recur the Lotus twice if needed, which is not really difficult. Or Cunning Wish for Disenchant, or find Pernicious Deed, etc... I tend to sideboard Pernicious Deed a lot in order to deal with Tormod's Crypt and stuff. Most of the decks that would bring in graveyard hate are the Aggro decks, against which Pernicious Deed is already an auto sideboarding-in. Control decks will usually bring in Duress and Red Elemental Blasts.

[arj]

Good article. Been tinkering with gifts ungiven a little myself so it very insightful.

Could you elaborate some more on why you think burning wish is good enough to make the cut? My limited playtesting of the Charbelcher build has revealed that when you could use burning wish you are already winning, so its sort of a win more card the way I see it. And early on its simply dead. I can see that in the Salvagers deck you can use it for balance, so that makes it a lot better, but still. So I would be very happy if you could give me reasons for including it in both Chabelcher and Salvagers

Edit: Ok you have quite a different sideboard for the charbelcher build than Andy[1] had so I can see why its good there, but I would like your opinion in the Salvagers case still

[1]: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=9130

[Toad]

I'm not running Burning Wish in Salvagers.

The Charbelcher build I posted in the article has not been designed with Andy but off an original list Carsten gave me back in November. His original list featured Burning Wish as an offensive (Mind Twist, Decree of Justice, Deep Analysis) and defensive weapon (Balance, Primitive Justice) and I opted to keep It. It turned out to be really strong, and far from being good only when winning.

[Bum_of_keld]

For the last 3 major tournaments I have been too, I touted TPS in its more controlling last game route, like the Italians. I was just loving the gifts ungiven and am up to 3 myself because it is such a great winner, setting up the entire will kill with resolving one instant.

However, it wasn’t able to punch through drain based control without disruption to back it up. Id been trying to think of a way to make not only the gifts less of a bulky card, but more protection/disruption so I can keep up with the powerful control meta I expect. In retrospect, drain was the obvious answer, but not in tps where it just doesn’t really fit. I really like the idea of this deck, playing drain and the furnace (which a few meandeckers brought as tech to superhero in southern nj earlier this month, and i was definitely impressed, and they did give you credit, as an fyi) gives the deck late game viability, and not playing draw 7s is a huge boon, because they are always such a liability.

However, I have just a few questions on the article/deck:
1. The gifts of regrowth, will, lotus, and salvagers, you say they will most likely give you regrowth and lotus. But the question is, what the hell do you do with will when you can’t combo when it gets played! Your deck needs to cards to win, no?  Cause you need to win on your mainphase, and you cant possibly win the turn you cast will. Would you be better off going for lotus, demonic, vamp, and salvager. Than they give you both tutors or something to that affect. On second thought, how about a cunning wish in the mix so you can access shallow grave, I mean the mana needed to win is high, but this is an expensive, slower combo. Perhaps I’m missing something, but when you say, “they give u will and you just win” I know you don’t mean combo out so I wanted a clarification.

2. Why no maindeck vamp? Is it exclusively for sideboard access to maindeck tutoring, because the lack of such a powerful tutor in what still is a combination deck seems questionable to me.

3. No mana crypt? And how about mana vault for easier gifts mana? Or academy for explosiveness? I know you are taking a significantly more controlling route than tps, but I hear fast mana is good, and even hulk ran crypt, and this deck likes access to early mana too.

4. How powerful is the regrowth, does it really justify green?

5. And lastly do you feel you have enough fetchlands with only 4, it feels low for even a two color deck with the prevalence of wastes, especially with the need to have both your first two lands in play on turn two for drain?

Thanks for bringing a new control/combo archetype to the forefront and for a great article, I hope this deck is everything it looks to be <grabs plastics and a sharpie, its proxing time>

[LotusHead]

Toad once wrote back in August in a report mocking Salvager decks

"Auriok Salvager based decks have always been considerations in Type One, but no build really emerged as being a strong contender in the current metagame. The main flaw in the design of the deck is that it is based on a 3 cards combo (Auriok Salvager + Black Lotus + a win condition) when some more optimal combo decks are based on a two card combo only (see Dragon, for example)."

Has anything really changed in the Metagame as far as Salvager decks are concerned?  Ie: The number of Null Rods have decreased, while stable mana bases (basics) have increased.

Is there anything different in the Kill of your build? (ie, do you still use Pyrite Spellbomb, etc?)

Is Gifts Ungiven better than Intuition for any reason?

Is this a Yawgmoth's Will deck?

Has this deck be tested at a large tournament?

I am happy to see Salvager decks getting attention, and am a bit unhappy that it is Premium only.

One last question, this isn't by any chance, MeanDeck Salvagers, is it?

[Zherbus]

Has anything really changed in the Metagame as far as Salvager decks are concerned? Ie: The number of Null Rods have decreased, while stable mana bases (basics) have increased.

You just summed it up right there. Just add the lack of Trinisphere.

One last question, this isn't by any chance, MeanDeck Salvagers, is it?

Nope, I only offered minimal support before this was out. Most of Meandeck didn't assist Toad. It was more or less co-developed with the new Germbus project (3cControl).

[Smmenen]

But Toad is a member of meandeck  Call it that if you want

[Disburden]

I hate to ask a question that may make someone lash out against me, but is there anyway to see a decklist for this? I'm not asking to have the article written out for me for free, I just would like to see what the topic is about without a vague idea of what it "could be" about.

Thanks alot for any cooperation/not any negative responses.

Decklists are not premium, so I edited it into Toad's original post. That should also answer some of LotusHead's questions.
-Jacob

[LotusHead]

Thanks for including the deck list.  I have not seen any two Salvagers decks that look even remotely the same.

Were there any advantages to having a lone Brain Freeze as a Wish Target as to say, having even 1 Pyrite Spellbomb in the maindeck? I understand that Conjuer's Bauble, when going off, can let any Salvagers deck deal with just about anything, except...

With the new rise of Combo expected with the restriction of Trinisphere, is Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law/Ground Seal/other Combo Hate going to be a problem?  With my various builds, they can be a problem, but Tinker for Colossus gave me an out.

Lastly, is Gifts Ungiven vital to this deck in a way that Intuition isn't?

Is Yawgmoth's Will vital to the deck? Most Salvager builds can't go off under Yawgmoth's Will, but most decks featuring Yawg Will REALLY want to resolve Yawg Will.  Is it just bait?

I understand that much of this is probably discussed in the Premium article, but what does the rest of the community make with this build?

Again, thanks for the decklist.

[Toad]

Has anything really changed in the Metagame as far as Salvager decks are concerned?  Ie: The number of Null Rods have decreased, while stable mana bases (basics) have increased.

Trinisphere disappeared. Trinisphere based decks were horrible to face. Now Trinisphere is gone, the deck becomes good. Gifts Ungiven also turns a 2 (3) cards Combo into a 1 card Combo. That's essentially what pushes Salvagers builds on top.

Is there anything different in the Kill of your build? (ie, do you still use Pyrite Spellbomb, etc?)

No, no maindeck changes. Running no Spellbombs maindeck is only bad against Meddling Mage, should these resolve. I still have to see a serious and intensive use of Meddling Mages, then I would run a maindeck Aether Spellbomb, which deals with Meddling Mage as well as Pyrite Spellbomb, but is also randomly better against Oath and Dragon.

Is Gifts Ungiven better than Intuition for any reason?

Yes. Intuition gets AK or random stuff. Gifts Ungiven wins the game.

Is this a Yawgmoth's Will deck?

No, It's a Gifts Ungiven deck.

Has this deck be tested at a large tournament?

Benoit Foucard, a french friend, played the deck at our Paris tournament in February, to a 9th place finish (60 or 70 players). This is just decent, but the list he had was not perfect by then and he didn't have a chance to even goldfish the deck before the tournament (I gave him the list the day before). Kim Kluck won the T1 side events at GP Eindhoven with It. And Luc Tremblay won a 45-players tourney in Quebec.

Were there any advantages to having a lone Brain Freeze as a Wish Target as to say, having even 1 Pyrite Spellbomb in the maindeck? I understand that Conjuer's Bauble, when going off, can let any Salvagers deck deal with just about anything, except...

Pyrite Spellbomb is a pure win condition. Cunning Wish is a win condition that doubles with utility. And Phyrexian Furnace is overall far better !

With the new rise of Combo expected with the restriction of Trinisphere, is Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law/Ground Seal/other Combo Hate going to be a problem?

Hardly. You run 4 Mana Drain, 4 Force of Will, 3 Duress to hit the hate cards, and 3 Cunning Wish to get answers. You also have an easy access to Ray of Revelation thanks to Gifts Ungiven, if needed. I have faced these hate cards a lot but never found them extremely annoying. It's quite like Null Rod against Slaver back then when Fish was good. It's annoying until you want to deal with It.

Is Yawgmoth's Will vital to the deck? Most Salvager builds can't go off under Yawgmoth's Will, but most decks featuring Yawg Will REALLY want to resolve Yawg Will. Is it just bait?

You usually include Yawgmoth's Will in the game winning Gifts Ungiven, but mostly as a bait. Even if they give you Yawgmoth's Will, and even if you can't win off the Will, well, you are still resolving Will and you will probably draw or tutor Time Walk out of It if you don't already have access to It.
[/quote]

[Bram]

Phyrexian Furnace *usually* draws your deck.

Toadi, I've been seriously testing your deck ever since the debacle when I played against Womp with your build in Eindhoven ('Mit den Salvagers gebeatdownt'....) and I find that it usually doesn't draw your deck. Granted, it usually draws enough of it to win, but I have found myself in a tight place several times, wishing that either player had more cards in the yard. And yes, I have fizzled on account of this.

Graveyard hate is usually not an issue pre board. (...) Control decks will usually bring in Duress and Red Elemental Blasts.

How bad is that, though, when hating your 'yard will win them the game right then and there? Although you are unmistakenly combo, you will QUITE often out-permission, say, 3CC. Heck, you'll outdraw them a lot, too, since you can keep their yards and thus their Scryings in check using Furnace. They're fighting a losing battle (and boy, do my testing results confirm that...) so basically, they only have one shot: remove the Lotus (or Cranial Extract / Meddling Mage the Wishes, but that is a whole other matter )

I am fully convinced by now your deck is good. I am not convinced it is a good choice at the moment, however, since I don't share your confidence in my opponent's lack of yard hate. I think Controlslaver has frightened people into packing tons of the stuff.

Also, I see you've opted to drop LoA? Good choice. Noone likes a 61 card deck

Some questions: many TPS builds run a random Darksteel Colossus. Now if I understand correctly, that means they still have a deck after a massive Brain Freeze (albeit a one card library, and I could be wrong about this...). This gives them an extra turn during which they can possibly still whoop your ass. The only way to fix this is right now is to Ancestral them (which is usually not possible since you tend to have played that at least twice by then).
a. am I right about this?
b. does this need to be adressed?
c. is a maindeck Deep Anal the answer?

Mayeb it's just me, but I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with one win condition main. Maybe one Pyrite after all? It's good vs. Welders, too, and that DOES draw your whole deck.

But Toad is a member of meandeck Call it that if you want  

I think I'll call it 'gay white cards.dec'

[Toad]

Granted, it usually draws enough of it to win, but I have found myself in a tight place several times, wishing that either player had more cards in the yard. And yes, I have fizzled on account of this.

I still have to fizzle on Phyrexian Furnace. I've sometimes had to counter some of my own spells to keep the Furnace engine going, which is not really an issue anyways. You will also usually draw Gifts Ungiven and Thirsts for Knowledge when going offf the Furnace, and these are extremely powerful graveyard feeders. Thirst for Knowledge discarding 2 lands is 6 cards drawn with Furnace. Gifts Ungiven for draw spells is even more.

Note that you should not be using the regular ability of Phyrexian Furnace against an opponent who does not use its own graveyard, in order to maximize your use of the Furnace when going off.

They're fighting a losing battle (and boy, do my testing results confirm that...) so basically, they only have one shot: remove the Lotus (or Cranial Extract / Meddling Mage the Wishes, but that is a whole other matter

Against Drain Slaver, Control decks tend to sideboard Red Elemental Blasts and Lava Darts, which are overall more usefull thanks to nice splash effects on other Control decks and Aggro decks. Fighting over the Lotus is probably the best thing to do, but Control decks tend to shift away from severe graveyard hate towards Welder hate and blue cards hate, which helps a lot. That is, against Control, you are not really on a clock and you can take your time ramping up to 8 mana if needed, thanks to card draw or Gifts Ungiven for 3 Moxen and the Sol Ring. This allows double Salvagers activation if needed to fight one-shot graveyard hate such as Tormod's Crypt or Phyrexian Furnace.

Things may go different if Control decks shifts their hate towards graveyards, implying potential sideboard calls (Meddling Mages for Aggro Control route, for example), but so far I'm fine with the current setup.

Some questions: many TPS builds run a random Darksteel Colossus. Now if I understand correctly, that means they still have a deck after a massive Brain Freeze (albeit a one card library, and I could be wrong about this...). This gives them an extra turn during which they can possibly still whoop your ass. The only way to fix this is right now is to Ancestral them (which is usually not possible since you tend to have played that at least twice by then).
a. am I right about this?
b. does this need to be adressed?
c. is a maindeck Deep Anal the answer?

After the massive Brainfreeze, they will have one card in library, the Darksteel Colossus. Since you don't have an opportunity to RFG the Colossus with Phyrexian Furnace, the best plan is to Ancestral Recall them after the Brainfreeze. If the Ancestral Recall is already in your graveyard by then, just Furnace it and Cunning Wish a second time for the win. If you can't get the Ancestral Recall (all Wishes used already), just mill yourself a couple of times with the Brainfreeze to feed Furnace in order to get some 3 Force of Will, 2 Brainstorm, 2 Mana Drain hand before passing the turn

Mayeb it's just me, but I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with one win condition main. Maybe one Pyrite after all? It's good vs. Welders, too, and that DOES draw your whole deck.

None of the players who played the deck feel the need to run Pyrite Spellbomb maindeck, except you. Meddling Mage is probably the only thing that would make me play a Spellbomb maindeck. And even then, It would probably be an Aether Spellbomb, since It bounces Meddling Mages naming Cunning Wish at will and still be able to bounce an Akroma or Darksteel Colossus.

[arj]

4. How powerful is the regrowth, does it really justify green?

More on the same topic, have you experimented with Recall? I'm also thinking of the Charbelcher build. It seems to fit in the same spot as regrowth and is blue. Although it requires a little more mana it is also more versatile.

[Disburden]

Just wanted to post that after seeing the decklist thanks to moderators editing it, I am very excited about this deck. I spent midnight-4am this morning just goldfishing the thing and consistantly killing around turn 4 with it, without any problems. I even won some games against my girlfriend with her UBW control deck (featuring the meddling mage) without any difficulty. I should mention that I choose the AEther Spellbomb in the sideboard for this matchup with the Mage. After it was boarded in it was pretty much cake walk. A few well timed counters on Stifle didn't hurt either though  

Just wanted to say great job, Toad!

[Toad]

The turn 4 kill is indeed what you should be aiming at in goldfish. Turn 3 kills are common with enough acceleration. Aether Spellbomb in the sideboard is fine, that's probably what I would do If I had serious concerns with Meddling Mage in my metagame. Swords to Plowshares usually works too, but Aether Spellbomb has the added value of drawing your deck.

Stifle is hardly an issue when going off because you usually want to cast Brainfreeze with 3 counters in hand after having resolved 2 Duress. The correct play is probably to Stifle the first Salvagers activation if your deck has the tools to deal with the Salvagers during the one turn window Stifle may have bought you.

Regrowth really justify having Green in the deck (Green is also strong for Ray of Revelation and Pernicious Deed). It's used in most of the Gifts Ungiven setups and will randomly catch Ancestral Recall or Time Walk when topdecked. At worst It gets a Duress back, which is still pretty good. Gifts Ungiven for Time Walk, Regrowth, Auriok Salvagers and Yawgmoth's Will in early game against an Aggro deck or Combo, for example, will often give you Time Walk and Regrowth in hand. That means 3 free turns in a row to find Black Lotus, Gifts Ungiven or Cunning Wish. It's close to Recoup in this situation (Recoup gives 3 Time Walks), but is overall better thanks to letting you "tutor" for Ariok Salvagers in your graveyard. Recall has not been tested. It costs 1 more mana than Regrowth to bring back Salvagers into your hand, and that's like giving a free Time Walk to the opponent.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I find it funny that months back everybody picked on lotushead for making a deck revolving around this, then toad drops his list and all of a sudden everybody is all ears.  The deck is so-so, no MD win condition of course is a huge problem, considering meddling mage pretty much auto wins against this deck, and no he's not that uncommon.  Also, Intuition seems like it could work just as good in this deck, and with that you could fit in the AK engine, for a better draw engine.

Hopefully lotusheads work on the deck doesn't get lost in the "meandeck" craze, also, I don't understand why such a complex way to finish the job instead of just running the mainboard pyrite spellbomb, that way you don't have to worry about how much mana you have floating when your going off

[Moxlotus]

I find it funny that months back everybody picked on lotushead for making a deck revolving around this, then toad drops his list and all of a sudden everybody is all ears.  
...
Hopefully lotusheads work on the deck doesn't get lost in the "meandeck" craze, also, I don't understand why such a complex way to finish the job instead of just running the mainboard pyrite spellbomb, that way you don't have to worry about how much mana you have floating when your going off

While Lotushead (and AngryPheldigriff for that matter) made Salvagers decks, they were very different from this.  That would be expecting CH41N5 to give props to Psyduck (again-anyone remember him?) for creating Stax.

[E Face]

I find it funny that months back everybody picked on lotushead for making a deck revolving around this, then toad drops his list and all of a sudden everybody is all ears.

The one thing that jumped into my mind when I saw this was... what about all the former decklists that the "newbies" had created. Where was the love for a deck that was considered subpar until a Meandecker put his name behind it? I had read 3 or 4 threads about various Salvagers decks, from its inception to its AuriOath days, and I made a control oriented version that I used to start a thread awhile back that generated a decent amount of discussion only to be overshadowed by SCG Syracuse the following day. http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22047&highlight=

I was just wondering if you, Toad, had been working on this for as long as some of the other people out there?  I know I had put some time into the deck, had this been a long time coming? I was thrilled to see a more experienced Vintage player put his hands into a deck that was practically written off as a "pretender" and a "budget deck", and I'm excited to test your new tech. It's just funny that this whole concept is new to many players, it shows that it does take a big name to get something out there on these forums.

(p.s. Sorry if I asked questions answered in the article... I have no credit card = no premium SCG   )

[Toad]

I find it funny that months back everybody picked on lotushead for making a deck revolving around this, then toad drops his list and all of a sudden everybody is all ears.

I digged TheManaDrain forums for LotusHead decklists. All he posted was Auriok Salvagers based builds, with stuff like 4 Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mages. This is not an Auriok Salvagers deck, this is a Gifts Ungiven deck. Auriok Salvagers is just the win condition. Saying this deck is an Auriok Salvagers deck is like saying Oath is an Akroma deck. You are misunderstanding the core concept.

The deck is so-so

Back this up with testing please. The deck has already won tournaments and has been tested against most of the top Tier decks for hours.

no MD win condition of course is a huge problem, considering meddling mage pretty much auto wins against this deck, and no he's not that uncommon.

1. Meddling Mage is *not* common.
2. A single Aether Spellbomb over a Phyrexian Furnace solves this problem for ever. Meddling Mage is not an autowin.

Also, Intuition seems like it could work just as good in this deck

Intuition makes winning harder since you got to reach 8 mana instead of 5.

and with that you could fit in the AK engine, for a better draw engine.

How is AK a better draw engine than Gifts Ungiven and Thirst for Knowledge is a metagame where Psychatog, Oath of Druids and Goth Slaver are rampant? Running AK in this build is a serious non sense.

I don't understand why such a complex way to finish the job instead of just running the mainboard pyrite spellbomb, that way you don't have to worry about how much mana you have floating when your going off

You don't have to worry about how much mana you have when going off since you can sink all your excess mana into Auriok Salvagers anyways. If you want to run a maindeck Pyrite Spellbomb over a Phyrexian Furnace, fine, do it. Everyone is free to run bad cards over good cards.

I was just wondering if you, Toad, had been working on this for as long as some of the other people out there?

Since Champions of Kamigawa got released, since the core card of the deck was not released before. I just went to the Salvagers kill in December (or so), after having tested various win conditions, all around the same skeleton (that is, 55 or so cards in common for all builds).

[LotusHead]

I would liken Toad's Gift's Salvagers build to say, Sensei Sensei in it's related kill mechanism (large storm, Wish for BrainFreeze) than I would other Salvager builds.

Both seemed to be built completely independently and both bank on resolving Wish/Freeze with their deck in hand.

I'd sooner give Toad credit for helping build my versions of Salvagers through TMD Moderation and Standards than assume I had anything to do with this deck.  It is a unique idea. I don't feel slighted at all.

Looking at the list does make my head hurt and only actually playing with the deck will give me any clues as to if/why it is better than say, TPS, OathSalvagers, etc.

If Duress is part of this deck's "comboing off" gameplan, and the 3 Phyrexian Furnaces are the Draw Engine, could 1 Furnace be replaced by a Necrogen Spellbomb? (the discard a card Spellbomb) It doesn't ever fizzle out like Furnace and does damage to opponent's hand (albeight only a little when not comboing off).

[rvs]

The problem with the black spellbomb is that the opponent chooses what to discard, and you do not get to see the rest of their hand, so it would be impossible to verify is you are good to go in terms of comboing out.

[Bram]

The one thing that jumped into my mind when I saw this was... what about all the former decklists that the "newbies" had created. Where was the love for a deck that was considered subpar until a Meandecker put his name behind it?

Is this relevant to anything? To answer it anyway: 'this' deck was subpar before a Meandecker put his name behind it. Various lists floated around, some were truly, truly horrible and some (like LotusHead's) were well thought-through but still just didn't quite cut it. The fact that Toad is in Meandeck and that he didn't work on the Salvagers idea for as long as some members have, doesn't make his deck worse, or the other decks better.

(p.s. Sorry if I asked questions answered in the article... I have no credit card = no premium SCG  )

No need to apologise. Many of us do not have an account, and this will likely always remain so. It's great that we have access to the lists and usually to the authors, which means we'll still get our questions answered. It also means that the author will sometimes be doing double work, so to speak. So be it.

Looking at the list does make my head hurt and only actually playing with the deck will give me any clues as to if/why it is better than say, TPS, OathSalvagers, etc.

That's a good question. I've been playing around with this deck ever since Womp crushed me with Toad's build some weeks ago. I know this is gonna sound like a non-statement, but it really is metagame dependant.

This deck packs an insane amount of permission / disruption. It is for all intents and purposes, a control deck with a very compact combo win. The combo is so small! TPS, which is also described as a control-type combo deck, obviously needs many more spells to go off, and has a hard time combatting this deck's array of counterspells. On the other hand, this deck is much more vulnerable to yard hate. If they remove your Lotus in TPS, it's a mild hassle. If they do it here, it's game. I'd say that if decks are packed with yard hate (as I suspect they might be in my meta) TPS will likely be better. If not, then this deck certainly has a chance to shine.

The OathSalvagers thing I admit I don't really know about. But that won't stop my from hypothesizing ;-)

The idea behind it is ofcourse completely different. Again, much like Toad said, the Salvagers is just the win; the basis, in this case, is obviously Oath. Oath is not the hardest deck in the word to hate out. If you expect a lot of people playing Meandeck Oath for example (as I expect they will in Eindhoven, currently) you can bet that many others made the same estimation and are packing Oath hate. Obviously, more often than not, this will hit OathSalvagers, too. Actually, I rather think OathSalvagers dies to both Oath hate and yard hate. I like the deck, but I think I'd play TPS or Toad's deck over that in most meta's.

[Disburden]

I just wanted to mention that this deck did NOT appeal to me because of a label like"meandeck" sticking on the bottom of Toad's posts. The biggest reason I like this deck and was excited about its appearance (which made me take the step to become premium on SCG finally) was that it is based on GIFTS UNGIVEN. If it was any other kind of Salvager deck that I've seen in the past, I wouldn't have been as interested, and definitely wouldn't have built the deck and tested it out for myself over the past three days.

I've loved Gifts since it has come out, I was one of the first to start throwing it into my TPS deck in a more-than-1-of. Then Team Cab released their gifts deck, then Shortbus had the recent Belcher w/ Recoup Deck, and now this version has come out from Toad. I definitely consider it in the vain of the other decks I just mentioned, not Salvagers.  

I just don't understand how someone can be offended and say people are taking someone's idea,  throwing meandeck on it when the person they said was being"ripped off" didn't even mind or consider it so in the first place.

[Bram]

I was one of the first to start throwing it into my TPS deck in a more-than-1-of. Then Team Cab released their gifts deck, then Shortbus had the recent Belcher w/ Recoup Deck, and now this version has come out from Toad. I definitely consider it in the vain of the other decks I just mentioned, not Salvagers.

...and you can expect a new Gifts deck by team ISP in the very near future

[Toad]

...and you can expect a new Gifts deck by team ISP in the very near future

If you are talking about the build Marco played against me, you should write something about It. It's really good too. The build he had was just an experimental one, and yet turned out to be already pretty strong, despite an ill conceived mana base (imho).

[TrixR4Kidz]

Toad i'm not trying to say you stole his decklist, you clearly took the idea of the combo, you just made it into a poor win condition, why cunning wish to win, when you can win RIGHT NOW, I know that concept is probably too hard for you to grasp, and with bird*shit and EBA on the rise, don't say meddling mage is that uncommon, because those are both decks that have recently topped 8 and big venues.

Secondly, What I originally was saying, lotushead was picked on in the threads, and please don't say he wasn't, because I remember an actual "salvagers forum" going up, and entire forum dedicated to salvagers, which was later revealed as a joke.
Are you thinking of the Suicide Black forum? In any case, you're wrong about there ever being a salvagers forum.

Back this up with testing please.

I didn't test and excessive amount against it, but I did test a few games, and the deck dies out quickly, so I pretty much whipped up on it, SO FAR, i'll test further against it.

2. A single Aether Spellbomb over a Phyrexian Furnace solves this problem for ever. Meddling Mage is not an autowin.

do you even run a single aether spellbomb in the mainboard? I didn't see one.

How is AK a better draw engine than Gifts Ungiven and Thirst for Knowledge is a metagame where Psychatog, Oath of Druids and Goth Slaver are rampant?

Yea, I'll admit I was wrong on that, I see your point

If you want to run a maindeck Pyrite Spellbomb over a Phyrexian Furnace, fine, do it. Everyone is free to run bad cards over good cards.

Didn't you just tell me a single Aether spellbomb solves the problem of meddling mage? but why would you runs such a bad card? sounds like a contradiction of yourself

and another thing, what do you do against a deck that has a blessing in the maindeck?

That would be expecting CH41N5 to give props to Psyduck (again-anyone remember him?) for creating Stax.

No, it wouldn't be expecting that, also, I never said he had to give him props, but you can't deny lotushead came up with the basis of the deck.  When I say basis I mean the combo part of it, Toad customized the deck largely, and I am in no way saying he stole the deck.

[Klep]

I didn't test and excessive amount against it, but I did test a few games, and the deck dies out quickly, so I pretty much whipped up on it, SO FAR, i'll test further against it.

You can't judge a combo deck based on a few games of testing.  You don't even have a feel for a combo deck until 50 runs or so.  When you have tested it extensively, then you can question toad's results.

do you even run a single aether spellbomb in the mainboard? I didn't see one.

He doesn't because he doesn't have to worry about Mages in his meta.  If you do, put in the spellbomb.

Didn't you just tell me a single Aether spellbomb solves the problem of meddling mage? but why would you runs such a bad card? sounds like a contradiction of yourself

It's not a contradiction, it's a metagame call.  If you don't have to worry about Mage, then Aether Spellbomb is damn near worthless.

and another thing, what do you do against a deck that has a blessing in the maindeck?

Simple.  Storm up enough to mill their entire deck twice, then Furnace away Blessing in response to the trigger.

No, it wouldn't be expecting that, also, I never said he had to give him props, but you can't deny lotushead came up with the basis of the deck.  When I say basis I mean the combo part of it, Toad customized the deck largely, and I am in no way saying he stole the deck.

Wrong.  The basis of the deck is Gifts Ungiven.  Lotushead didn't come up with that at all.  Brass Man did, Toad did, Team CAB did; in fact, just about everyone but Lotushead came up with the basis of this deck.  Salvagers is just a convenient win condition.

[jpmeyer]

Also, everyone, and I mean everyone, noticed Lotus/LED and Salvagers because of the fact that it was explictly mentioned in the 5th Dawn preview article for the card at mtg.com.