[Article] Multi-Colored Control Part 2

[Zherbus]

RE: Crucible/Strip

1) Playing the proper number of strips would make the manabase terrible and bite into the business card slots.

2) It's not all that hot against all the decks running 5+ basic lands and 4+ Fetchlands.

3) Maybe in the SB, but testing showed that decks you want to bring Strips in against didn't require Crucible to beat.

4) This isn't Weissman control.

RE: Old Man

He replaced another win condition in it's slot which is just as terrible against Combo game 1, except that Old Man is blue and can be pitched. The only thing I would rather have in his slot against Combo is Platinum Angel, and you'd need Tinker for that for it to steal random games... assuming they don't just bounce it. My build before Myriad had 2 Decree, 1 Plat, 1 Tinker instead of 3 Decree and 1 Old Man. Call it a metagaming slot (I was not about to lose to Slaver) and run Ticking Gnomes if you think it'll help.

[mask]

Maybe I'm just a stubborn ass. Maybe I'm just retarded. Maybe both ;D, but I just don't understand why you decided to exclude something like crucible strip.

To run a stripmine means you also have to supplement this, with either full set of stripes, adding nullrod. (this was fish's real strenght, and stifle fetches hurt a lot). Having a single card to attack your oppents manabase is going to do a little.

Weismass was a fan of reactive control. This stragety is strong against Aggro, but lacks a lot keys to stop combo, and is not a postive against another control deck matchup. The game has change dramtically since then, and you are time stamping your thoughs on 10 year old strageys. Not recommoneded.

The Whole point of this deck is ProActive control.

RE: Crucible/Strip
RE: Old Man

He replaced another win condition in it's slot which is just as terrible against Combo game 1, except that Old Man is blue and can be pitched. The only thing I would rather have in his slot against Combo is Platinum Angel, and you'd need Tinker for that for it to steal random games... assuming they don't just bounce it. My build before Myriad had 2 Decree, 1 Plat, 1 Tinker instead of 3 Decree and 1 Old Man. Call it a metagaming slot (I was not about to lose to Slaver) and run Ticking Gnomes if you think it'll help.

Old Man also improves the match up of multi Control decks, against Monoblue. Althought Decree actaully puts a clock on MonoBlue, Stealing an Ophie increases the pressure on MonoBlue, and most imporantely attempts to slow down thier counter walls.

[Matt]

If it's that proactive, has anyone considered Meddling Mage?

[Dante]

If it's that proactive, has anyone considered Meddling Mage?

the guy who came in 3rd/4th at Syracuse did.

[Zherbus]

... and me before I cut it. It would have to go in the Duress slot, and Duress is a hell of a lot better against Combo. We thought it would be stellar as a SB option against Slaver, but it really didn't work out that way.

Oh, and I Control-F'd my articles and this thread for instances of 'proactive' and I never said that word.

[Dante]

Better because it's a turn faster?  Because most combo won't have any way to deal with the Mage, maybe one Chain of Vapor...

a few random questions:

did the lotus petal come in only in the 4-scrying version because of its graveyard synergy?

did you test Shackles instead of the Old Man?  Obv Old Man can beat for 2 and is pitchable, but the Shackles can be used mid-late game to negate fatties like a mid-game Akroma or hard-cast pentavus/platz.

Bill

PS - you forgot Ancestral and Timewalk in your oath-ish deck in the article.

[Zherbus]

Yes, because a turn is a lot against combo. Really, Mage is stellar in theory, but tapping a Tundra and another blue on turn 2 is pretty shitty.

Lotus Petal came from wanting to get Mana Drain online on turn 2 more, it just happens to work great with spells in general. The Skeletal Scrying synergy wasn't intended at all.

Did you test Shackles instead of the Old Man? Obv Old Man can beat for 2 and is pitchable, but the Shackles can be used mid-late game to negate fatties like a mid-game Akroma or hard-cast pentavus/platz.

We did, as a matter of fact Doug came up with that suggestion, but it's really bad against Slaver. That's what I was gunning for when I made the build. Large fatties is what I have plows, wish-for-plows, and Balance (but not against Oath obviously) for though. Shackles is a fine card, though.

re: Oath, crap I c/p'd the wrong list apparently. Let me look to see what the deal is.

[mask]

Better because it's a turn faster?  Because most combo won't have any way to deal with the Mage, maybe one Chain of Vapor...

Mage can also easily swap Chalice SB slot. The Biggest problem with Mage is it simply can just be overpowered. Let Take a look at Death Long, You have to name tendrils (otherwise they will use Tendrils to kill the mage), but without a secound mage naming Death Wish before they wish for the answer, it is meaninless. consider you have to play two cards with UW UW it is hard for circustances to be in your favour. Against Tendrils decks Chalice > Mage

I believe if you look at all the decks out there mage is really only good against Oath. It is a better sideboard against Dragon than chalice, but i do not believe it should be played over chalice.

Against Control, most thier Cards overlaps with yours, it will be hard to benefit greately from mage.

Oh, and I Control-F'd my articles and this thread for instances of 'proactive' and I never said that word.

I am to blame for that, this is also how i have been developing and testing the deck.

Rules Questions: Does Cycleing counts as being played? You can stifle it becuase it is an ability, and work understandstill but for Mage abilty, cannot be played, did they errata mage to allow it to hurt decree?
Rules questions belong in the rules forum. I'm moving all the subsequent discussion of this point there.
-Jacob

Jason

PS Bill are you coming to Friday night at COD? or 1.5 on Monday? We can the different aspects of the deck. Manuel & John will be present.

[Dante]

PS Bill are you coming to Friday night at COD? or 1.5 on Monday? We can the different aspects of the deck. Manuel & John will be present.

I didn't know there was anything Friday night....what is COD?  Is that a new store.  Let's take this to PM so we don't hijack his thread.     Friday's no good, poker night with a big client, but Monday night might be doable...
Keep this sort of talk to PM; it's of no use to anyone else.
-MATT[/color]

[Conan_barberarn]

... and me before I cut it. It would have to go in the Duress slot, and Duress is a hell of a lot better against Combo. We thought it would be stellar as a SB option against Slaver, but it really didn't work out that way.

Here's what I cut to get 4 mages maindecked:
-1 Decree
-1 Mind Twist
-1 Old Man
-1 Petal

+4 Meddling Mage

With this change the deck turns to a combo-hater. It's really hard to loose vs Combo with this config. Without the Old man you have one less removal card which can prove hazardous but I generally find it enough.

/Gustav

[Hi-Val]

Cutting the Petal puts you at 23 mana sources, and that's downright suicidal. In testing, it was really strained as it was with 24 sources. If I wanted to play Meddling Mages in a control deck, I'd run EBA, which is something that is a decent choice right now anyway.

[Toad]

Meddling Mage is quite terrible in the build and is by no mean better than Duress. Duress is a fine first turn (or third turn) play against all kind of decks. Meddling Mage is an awfully bad turn 2 play ("hey look, I'm tapped out, wreck me!") that will only be an annoyance for a while until the opponent finds a solution.

[Imsomniac101]

Can somebody tell me how to play the freakin deck. I just keep losing with it. I lost to Fish and Suicide Black for goodness sakes! Suicide Black!
I think Wasteland owns the deck too much.

[Hi-Val]

Tips on playing the deck (or any deck for that matter):

SLOW DOWN. Think about what you are playing.

Don't break Fetchlands until you need them if you're worrying about Wasteland.

Don't use your Tutors as soon as you can. Make sure that you are getting something you need. I find that Tutoring up a Mana Drain is really, really good.

This deck doesn't have bombs in the way that other decks do; you have to be reactive and win through card advantage and superior answers to threats. It rewards the patient.

You can scry for 2-3 cards to fill up again.

Remember that you have Vampiric Tutor on the sideboard to tutor things up as well if you have Cunning Wish in hand.

Think ahead! What cards in an opponent's deck give you fits? Should you drop a counter on stopping Goblin Welder, or should you hold it for their draw spells? Remember that you have 2 STPs in the deck.

SLOW DOWN. This needs to be said again, over and over for 3cc. Why do it now when you can keep your mana up for a counter?

If you have 6-7 cards in your hand, don't blow draw unless you need counters. If you have Brainstorms, consider holding them until you'll need them. 3cc runs less blue cards than other control decks, so you'll need to have ammo to keep FOW online.

Some decks have a clear-cut strategy to win against. I don't see how you lost to Fish when you have Old Man Of The Sea maindecked. If their wastelands gave you trouble, you should hold fetches and get Islands with them instead of Duals. The deck only runs 24 mana sources, so you have to be careful with what you get.

If you are new to playing control, I'd suggest picking up Control Slaver instead, as it's an easier deck to get the hang of and it'll still teach you about using Mana Drain. I'd reccommend reading this DYNAMITE article by Kevin Cron (CHA1N5) about using Mana Drain. It's the most important card in 3cc.

[Conan_barberarn]

Hi all,

I played the deck this weekend in a tournament (about 60 people showed up). I played it with theese changes:

-1 Twist
-1 Petal
-1 Decree
-1 Old Man

+4 Meddling Mage

I expected alot of combo and that's the primary reason wyh I put the mages in there. Naming Tendrils (or rector or necromancy) forces them to dig for answers which gives me valuable time. Unfortuantelly I only faced one TPS and I fizzled big time against him (got manaflooded both games) so I never got to test the combo mathcup properly.

Since the restriction of trini, the meta here in Sweden seems to be a little stirred up. There is no clear tier1 anymore as all the people who used to play STAX have turned away from the deck. I faced a suppriceingly high amount of aggro (Sui) and I found that to be a hard matchup. I know that my lifetotal shouldn't matter but against aggro or aggro-control it usually does, which made me wish I had the angels instead of the decrees.

I don't think the petal is necessary, having 16 land and 7 solomoxen is quite enough for me. The ony thing that petal accompliches is occasionally giving you drain mana up first turn (or meddling 1st turn) bu I don't think it's worth it. I'd rather dures 1st turn and play meddling second turn. I changed the manabase a little to make it more wasteland proof:

7 SoLoMoxen
3 Islands
4 Flooded Strand
1 PLains
1 Polluted
1 Loa
3 Tundra
3 Ug Sea

Whast I love about the deck:
It has great disrupting against allmost anything. I love the duresses and wouldn't cut them for the world. I like the mages alot too.
The sideboard works good for the matchups you have difficulties with, I changed the Sacred grounds to Seal of Cleansing as they work with more decks.

What I didn't like:
It takes a long time to win. The decks you face today needs only to resolve one bomb for it all to be over and 2-3 soldier tokens isn't a fast enough clock. I also find my life total matter more than I  would have tought. I therefor recommend the angel over the decrees as she helps against aggro also. I foud out that when siding out the wishes the number of blue cards got really low which makes it hard to find cards to pitch to FOW.

/Gustav

[Toad]

I played the deck this weekend in a tournament (about 60 people showed up). I played it with theese changes:

-1 Twist
-1 Petal
-1 Decree
-1 Old Man

+4 Meddling Mage

Then you played a totally different deck.

[Conan_barberarn]

I played the deck this weekend in a tournament (about 60 people showed up). I played it with theese changes:

-1 Twist
-1 Petal
-1 Decree
-1 Old Man

+4 Meddling Mage

Then you played a totally different deck.

What is the meaning with this comment? If you change a few slots in a deck then of course you'll have a different deck. With this reasoning, even sideboarding yields a completely different deck. Do you wish to argue that the cards I put in are bad, then go ahead.

@Duress:
I have never advocated removing duress from the deck (you said that duress shouldn't be cut a few posts back and I can't see anyone wanting to remove them) as they are the absolute best 1st turn play I can tink of. The optimal play as I see it is to duress 1st turn and then play a meddling 2:nd which forces him to find an answer to meddling or be severly crippled.

@Tapping out turn 2 to play meddling:
After a 1st turn duress there is absolutelly no problem tapping out for meddling. If he has drain mana up and you havent duressed him then it's a problem! But would you rather have a decree/old man/ twist here instead of meddling? The way I see it, meddling forces you're opponent to deal with him which takes time and get's you to the lategame (what this deck wants).

@The manabase:
So 24 mana including petal is just fine but 23 mana without petal is SUICIDAL? Come on, a petal isn't doing anything to your build except occationally giving you drain mana 1st turn. Aggreed that it has some synergy with Scrying and sometimes Will but it's still just one expendable mana. I've increased the number of basics to make the deck more resilient to wasteland. That's far better than adding a Petal in my view.

@Adding 4 mages makes the deck EBA:
I dont think they are that close actually. But if 4 mages is that big of a deal then what is better with 3cc than EBA? Do you agree that mages help getting to the late game (atleast more so than twist/old man/decree)?

/Gustav

[Moxlotus]

When you add an entirely new playset of cards to a deck, especially one that uses a different type of strategy to a deck-you change the deck enough that it can no longer be recognized as the original deck.  Think CS vs. Goth Slaver.  Similar decks, different strategies and it plays out differently.

[Revvik]

Although it DOES give the deck more blue cards for Force of Will, which was a big issue for me testing this.

And the deck does play out MUCH differently, since the inclusion of a 2/2 body gives the deck a more aggressive feel, while Zherbus's list is more patient with its kills.

[Klep]

As Toad and MoxLotus indicated, when you add 4 Mages you completely change the strategy of the deck.  Now, instead of just working up to a point of board control, you are trying to get a Mage to stick with the right spell named, and hope to ride it the rest of the way.  Aggro-control is fine when you have a respectable clock, but a 2/2 is hardly that.  It doesn't help that you cut a couple of the deck's strongest cards in order to shoehorn them in either.  In addition, you also strengthened the white component of the deck without tweaking the manabase accordingly.  You have thus violated the following rules of deck tweaking:

1) Don't lose the forest for the trees (adding/removing cards which change how the deck plays).

2) Alter the manabase to work with your changes.

If you're having trouble after this, it's your own fault.

[Engine_number_9]

I really like your build, and have been happy playing it. The only change I have made so far is to add a Cunning Wish main-deck and removing a scrying to the sideboard (removing gush) so that it can be wished for at end of turn turn 2 if I need it.
Along with its tutor ability it is also pitchable to FoW
Is it an unescessary change or does it give one more opportunities?

[Conan_barberarn]

As Toad and MoxLotus indicated, when you add 4 Mages you completely change the strategy of the deck.  Now, instead of just working up to a point of board control, you are trying to get a Mage to stick with the right spell named, and hope to ride it the rest of the way.  Aggro-control is fine when you have a respectable clock, but a 2/2 is hardly that.  It doesn't help that you cut a couple of the deck's strongest cards in order to shoehorn them in either.  In addition, you also strengthened the white component of the deck without tweaking the manabase accordingly.  You have thus violated the following rules of deck tweaking:

1) Don't lose the forest for the trees (adding/removing cards which change how the deck plays).

2) Alter the manabase to work with your changes.

If you're having trouble after this, it's your own fault.

What I feel that this deck wants to do is to get to the lategame in the easiest possible manner. This is where the mage helps as he attracts attention from the opponent if you name a critical card in his deck. If you for instance names tendrils against TPS that forces the opponent to play around the mage which will take time and thus giving you more time to set up. I never count on the mage to go all the way i I don't protect it if they try to remove it. It is however a 2/2 body that CAN win the game if it isnt answered, just like 2 soldier tokens can.

The cards I cut for the mages are generally a much slower clock against most decks. Old man is nice but it gets active on turn 3 at earliest and only playing one means you will have to tutor him up. Both twist and decree are nice drain-sinks but without drain they are really slow and clunky. Replacing Decree with a faster threat can hardly be bad?

About the manabase, have you even looked at the changes I proposed to make meddling fit? Here's my manabase:

7 SoLoMoxen
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Islands
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Loa

Now this can be shaky if you fase alot of disruption in the form of waste/stifle/null rod but with 4 basics + fetch atleast I feel it's stable enough. Do you find this manabase Suicidal? OMG he cut the petal!! He will fizzle all day long without it!!!

/Gustav

[warble]

I believe 24 mana is stable, and 23 is not.

It's really a question of if 23 mana would be considered suicidal, and yes, dipping below 24 is the equivalent of saying, "I'm not ever going to have to mulligan because I have luck"

Put back in the 24th mana, or you're going to lose some games because you mulled into mulligan into mulligan into you never got a decent hand.

Sorry for the rant, but read up on your history and some studies to see why we have stabilized the environment between 24 and 26 mana.  Okay, and CA is an exception but 4 lands it runs are draw2's so basically you tweak the percentages because you'll be able to draw more cards/turn meaning your curve can dip.

[Klep]

What I feel that this deck wants to do is to get to the lategame in the easiest possible manner.

  And there you'd be wrong.  This deck doesn't want to do anything the easy way.  It wants to do things the best way.  The best way to get to the late game is to spend the first couple turns establishing card advantage and building a solid manabase so that you have the tools to counter the biggest threats and deal with the things that punch through.  You aren't going to do that by playing with a creature which may or may not affect your opponent's game plan, requires tapping out on turn 2, and requires weakening your manabase to support its cost in addition to your draw engine.

This is where the mage helps as he attracts attention from the opponent if you name a critical card in his deck. If you for instance names tendrils against TPS that forces the opponent to play around the mage which will take time and thus giving you more time to set up.

  Trini never substantially bothered TPS, neither will Meddling Mage.  They'll just bounce it when they're ready to win.

I never count on the mage to go all the way i I don't protect it if they try to remove it. It is however a 2/2 body that CAN win the game if it isnt answered, just like 2 soldier tokens can.

  Yes, technically it can win the game.  10 turns, or even 9 is a very long time to let your opponent try to find a way out.  Fish was able to do it thanks to things like Standstill and other tempo-denying effects which set the opponent back throughout the game.  3CC doesn't have those tools.

The cards I cut for the mages are generally a much slower clock against most decks. Old man is nice but it gets active on turn 3 at earliest and only playing one means you will have to tutor him up.

  Old Man isn't a threat.  It's an answer.  His only purpose is to steal Welders and other random little dudes that can cause you problems.  If you find yourself regularly trying to swing with him, you really don't know what you're doing.  He excels at what he does, and is definitely better than Mage where he is used because stealing a creature is much better than just not letting one be played.

Both twist and decree are nice drain-sinks but without drain they are really slow and clunky. Replacing Decree with a faster threat can hardly be bad?

   Who's without Drain?  I know Zherbus is running Drain, and I certainly am too.  Are you not?  Perhaps you should look to a different kind of deck then.  You know, one that doesn't make such heavy use of the card.  Decree isn't meant to be played early.  It isn't even meant to be played off Drain.  It's meant to be played around turn 6 or 7, when you have a fair amount of mana on the board, at which point you cycle it at the end of your opponent's turn to create a 3 or 4 turn clock.
  Though it may seem like this is not significantly faster than Mage, it is significantly better because you didn't have to tap out on the critical second turn instead of leaving Drain mana up,  which allows you to play the control game you're supposed to be playing.  Then, when you are ready to win, you win in 3 or 4 turns instead of 10.

About the manabase, have you even looked at the changes I proposed to make meddling fit? Here's my manabase:

7 SoLoMoxen
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Islands
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Loa

Now this can be shaky if you fase alot of disruption in the form of waste/stifle/null rod but with 4 basics + fetch atleast I feel it's stable enough. Do you find this manabase Suicidal? OMG he cut the petal!! He will fizzle all day long without it!!!

Well, you start by going down to 23 mana sources, which has been a mistake for a long time.  24 is a requirement.  Without 24 you will find yourself without the mana you need too frequently.  Next, you have sacrificed flexibility by cutting a fetch in favor of an unecessary Island.  Lastly, though you have done a fair job shifting the manabase to support your new emphasis on white, this has resulted in you shifting support away from the color that supports your draw engine.  Last I checked, that wasn't a wise thing to do.

[Conan_barberarn]

Thanks for the answers! I really enjoy this discussion. A few things though...

Trini never substantially bothered TPS, neither will Meddling Mage.  They'll just bounce it when they're ready to win.

You said it yourself, they will need to bounce it eot to be able to go off and that alone makes it wothwhile. Actually almost all decks will need to get rid of the mage before continuing with their game plan.
 

I emphasise that I never count on the mage to go all the way. I count on the mage to be such an annoyance to the opponent that he decides to remove it. If they try to remove him then he's allready served his purpose.

Old Man isn't a threat.  It's an answer.  His only purpose is to steal Welders and other random little dudes that can cause you problems.  If you find yourself regularly trying to swing with him, you really don't know what you're doing.  He excels at what he does, and is definitely better than Mage where he is used because stealing a creature is much better than just not letting one be played.

And what about the decks that dont use creatures? Or when you face creature decks but don't draw Old Man? If you run one Old Man you can hardly count on drawing him every time you need him. And he still takes a turn to activate and then yet another turn before you can use the stolen creature (welder). A welder is a 1st turn drop and TFK is usually cast on the second turn, what is Old Man doing against that? A mage works fine both against creatureless decks (TPS) and against resolved welders (naming TFK). Not to forget when you get the: land duress, land mage thing which praticly wins the game.
 

Who's without Drain?  I know Zherbus is running Drain, and I certainly am too.  Are you not?  Perhaps you should look to a different kind of deck then.  You know, one that doesn't make such heavy use of the card.  Decree isn't meant to be played early.  It isn't even meant to be played off Drain.  It's meant to be played around turn 6 or 7, when you have a fair amount of mana on the board, at which point you cycle it at the end of your opponent's turn to create a 3 or 4 turn clock.
  Though it may seem like this is not significantly faster than Mage, it is significantly better because you didn't have to tap out on the critical second turn instead of leaving Drain mana up,  which allows you to play the control game you're supposed to be playing.  Then, when you are ready to win, you win in 3 or 4 turns instead of 10.
 

Of course I'm running 4x Drain but I don't allways have it turn 2. And if I do have the choice between leaving drain mana up or playing the mage, I allways (this needs no explanation) prefer drain over mage. If I don't have drain then the mage is a good turn 2 play (I avoid playing it if opponent have drain mana up and I don't have a FoW to back the mage with). On turn 2, would you rather have a decree/Old Man/Twist in hand than a mage?
   

Well, you start by going down to 23 mana sources, which has been a mistake for a long time.  24 is a requirement.  Without 24 you will find yourself without the mana you need too frequently.  Next, you have sacrificed flexibility by cutting a fetch in favor of an unecessary Island.  Lastly, though you have done a fair job shifting the manabase to support your new emphasis on white, this has resulted in you shifting support away from the color that supports your draw engine.  Last I checked, that wasn't a wise thing to do.

If I were going to stabilize the mana bse by going to 24 mana, I wouldn't choose the petal as the 24 source. I would choose something solid like a land ( a fetch or maybe strip). But you are probably right that 23 is a bit low.

The only card that I cut that I really miss sometimes is the Twist which can be great vs Control (active Loa can be a real pain). I still won't be able to cast it until after a drain or turn 3 at earliest and that's why I prefer meddling. How do you expect to reach the lategame in a better manner with your card choises than mine, if you face an offensive deck (TPS, maybe CS or Dragon/Rector)?

/Gustav

[Toad]

On turn 2, would you rather have a decree/Old Man/Twist in hand than a mage?

Mind Twist. All day long. Meddling Mage is a minor annoyance for well-designed decks, because all decks have the ability to get rid of It when needed or have enough critical cards to play around. OTOH, Mind Twist wins games. With Mana Drains and 7 Solomoxen (+ Lotus Petal), fueling big Mind Twists is easy.

Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is a terrible play. TPS runs Chain of Vapor and Cunning Wish. Naming TFK against an active Goblin Welder will leave Intuition, Tinker and the discard step untouched.

Not to forget when you get the: land duress, land mage thing which praticly wins the game.

You are playing in a strange world...

[Klep]

You said it yourself, they will need to bounce it eot to be able to go off and that alone makes it wothwhile. Actually almost all decks will need to get rid of the mage before continuing with their game plan.

The point is that they don't care.  They will still win if they are going to win, and it won't matter if you have mage or not.
 

I emphasise that I never count on the mage to go all the way. I count on the mage to be such an annoyance to the opponent that he decides to remove it. If they try to remove him then he's allready served his purpose.

We don't want to run cards that annoy the opponent.  We want to run cards that beat the opponent.  Mind Twist does this.  Mage does not.

And what about the decks that dont use creatures? Or when you face creature decks but don't draw Old Man? If you run one Old Man you can hardly count on drawing him every time you need him. And he still takes a turn to activate and then yet another turn before you can use the stolen creature (welder). A welder is a 1st turn drop and TFK is usually cast on the second turn, what is Old Man doing against that? A mage works fine both against creatureless decks (TPS) and against resolved welders (naming TFK). Not to forget when you get the: land duress, land mage thing which praticly wins the game.

If you can't stop either of a first turn welder or a second turn TFK, you should have mulliganed.  Old Man in this case was a meta slot, and a wise one.  If you're facing a meta full of decks that don't run creatures, then you don't need him.  Still, there are many better cards than Medling Mage to run.  Stifle works better against combo, for example, and Disenchant is never a bad card to have around for things like Oath and Stax, both of which laugh at Mage.

Of course I'm running 4x Drain but I don't allways have it turn 2. And if I do have the choice between leaving drain mana up or playing the mage, I allways (this needs no explanation) prefer drain over mage. If I don't have drain then the mage is a good turn 2 play (I avoid playing it if opponent have drain mana up and I don't have a FoW to back the mage with). On turn 2, would you rather have a decree/Old Man/Twist in hand than a mage?

To answer your question, yes.  I would.  I would rather have a game breaking card or a card i can cycle into something good than a Meddling Mage.  And while you may not always have Drain mana up on turn 2, you're far more likely to have it than Mage mana.  Regardless, just showing Drain is sometimes enough to discourage an opponent, while Mage requires you to tap out and show vulnerability.

If I were going to stabilize the mana bse by going to 24 mana, I wouldn't choose the petal as the 24 source. I would choose something solid like a land ( a fetch or maybe strip). But you are probably right that 23 is a bit low.

Then you need to add another one.  What are you going to cut?  A good card, or Mage?

The only card that I cut that I really miss sometimes is the Twist which can be great vs Control (active Loa can be a real pain). I still won't be able to cast it until after a drain or turn 3 at earliest and that's why I prefer meddling. How do you expect to reach the lategame in a better manner with your card choises than mine, if you face an offensive deck (TPS, maybe CS or Dragon/Rector)?

And you are wrong to prefer Mage.  Mage at best annoys and slows down the opponent.  Mind Twist breaks games wide open.  Getting to turn 3 is not a problem for this deck.  That much is trivial.  Turn 3, however, is where you really want to be locking in your advantage in the game.  Again, Meddling Mage has no hope of doing anything but slowing down the opponent.  Mind Twist wins the game, and Old man can also break it wide open.  Decree at worst makes your deck smaller by allowing you to cycle it and at best gives you the win in a couple turns, and we've already addressed the stupidity of cutting a mana source.

[Conan_barberarn]

On turn 2, would you rather have a decree/Old Man/Twist in hand than a mage?

Mind Twist. All day long. Meddling Mage is a minor annoyance for well-designed decks, because all decks have the ability to get rid of It when needed or have enough critical cards to play around. OTOH, Mind Twist wins games. With Mana Drains and 7 Solomoxen (+ Lotus Petal), fueling big Mind Twists is easy.

So you rather have a card that doesnt do anything on turn 2 than a card that stalls them a turn? You're not likely to be plaing big twists turn 2. Sometimes it happens and if it resolves it's probably a winner but it can also stumble into drain and in that case, the mage is atleast a smaller manaboost next turn.

Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is a terrible play. TPS runs Chain of Vapor and Cunning Wish. Naming TFK against an active Goblin Welder will leave Intuition, Tinker and the discard step untouched.

So they will need to find CoV or wish to get rid of it. This play will buy you time to set up. If they can bounce it and still go off in the same turn then twist is the only card that would have made a difference (DoJ, petal, Old Man wouldn't have mattered). If they bounce him during my next eot thats ok. I may have found a duress or a drain to protect myself against his attempt next turn.

Not to forget when you get the: land duress, land mage thing which praticly wins the game.

You are playing in a strange world...

I play in a world where combo is the new deck to beat and meddling does this better than Decree and Old Man. Twist isn't helping me getting to the late/mid game but once I get there, granted, it is a much better card than mage.

/Gustav

[Klep]

So you rather have a card that doesnt do anything on turn 2 than a card that stalls them a turn? You're not likely to be plaing big twists turn 2. Sometimes it happens and if it resolves it's probably a winner but it can also stumble into drain and in that case, the mage is atleast a smaller manaboost next turn.

What he, and every one who actually understands this deck, would rather have is a card that wins the game than one that just buys a turn.  As I explained, this deck doesn't have any difficulty getting to a point where it can make use of Mind Twist.

So they will need to find CoV or wish to get rid of it. This play will buy you time to set up. If they can bounce it and still go off in the same turn then twist is the only card that would have made a difference (DoJ, petal, Old Man wouldn't have mattered). If they bounce him during my next eot thats ok. I may have found a duress or a drain to protect myself against his attempt next turn.

First off, TPS has no trouble finding the cards it needs when it needs them.  Secondly, you just have shown that Twist is better than Mage.  Thirdly, TPS is unique in its ability to protect its combo.  A properly piloted TPS is going to go off when it decides to go off whether you want it to or not, and whether you have a Mage on the board is irrelevant.  Your strategy against TPS should not be to slow them for a turn or two, they don't care about that.  Hell, that just means they'll take more time setting up.  Your strategy against TPS needs to be to stop them from setting up, and Mage can't do that.

I play in a world where combo is the new deck to beat and meddling does this better than Decree and Old Man. Twist isn't helping me getting to the late/mid game but once I get there, granted, it is a much better card than mage.

So Toad is right, because it looks to me like Control Slaver is still the deck to beat.  But again, even if combo were to rise, there are far better cards for dealing with it than Meddling Mage, which just isn't going to stop a determined combo player.  You are better served by Chalice, Arcane Lab, or even Stifle than you are by Meddling Mage, which STILL can only buy you a turn or two.

[cane]

I will also admit I have no shame  

like 3 hours after I stated I play with my own builds, I began testing Z's build (since I believe he knows what he's doing)

OMFG it's a great deck, I thought I would really miss the red, especially the monkey and dart, but this is much better

however, I had some "comments" based on testing, I think 24 is maybe just one mana source too low, but the petal truly kicks ass

I also thought about the comments ppl made about meddling mage, and it has one advantage, it would be something I'd want to pitch to FOW

I also love the matchup against stax, I used to think that ppl who played stax were evil creations of pure darkness, now I think they're funny
sacred ground really shines, but nonetheless, when I myself play stax, I still think of myself as a mean being thursty for blood

yet again sliding off topic---

could we change 1 or 2 scryings? gifts ungiven comes to mind. something blue would be nice (isn't it always) I also like the idea of having one in the SB, so you can Cwish for it, but I'm not really that big fan of having 3 Cwishes main

as i'm seeing it, changing 2 scryings to something blue, we could change the swamp.  i never want to get a swamp from a fetch the first turn to play duress, but being unable to cast drain next turn
on the upside, what I really love about scrying:
-you get cards at instant speed,
-wich can't be stolen,
-for a reasonable cost,
-you can remove the artifacts in your grave, protecting your artis in play from opposing welders
-and desposing of that really important instant so Cwish can get it again

well, I think that's enough from me for now, until we meet again