N00b Dragon-player needs help

[instiqma]

I realize that there are dozens of threads that deal with dragon, but I couldn't find any that would deal with builds that have no power or/and no bazaars. Is this kind of build viable at all (in a non-powered meta)?

Mana:
13* Swamp
4* Polluted Delta
1* Lotus Petal
1* Chrome Mox
1* Mox Diamond
1* Mana Crypt
4* Dark Ritual
--
25

Combo:
3* Worldgorger Dragon
2* Ambassador Laquatus
1* Caller of the Claw
4* Necromancy
4* Animate Dead
--
14

Tutors:
4* Spoils of the Vault
1* Demonic Tutor
1* Vampiric Tutor
4* Buried Alive
1* Entomb
--
10

Disruption:
4* Cabal Therapy
4* Duress
--
8

Yes, it has only 58 cards. I need to fill those two slots...

As I suggested earlier, I have no access to bazaars or power. I would like to make this deck BG, which means including 4 Bayou (the only reason why this deck isn't atm BG), 4 ESG, 4 Xantid Swarm and possibly Survival.

I've also thought about including blue. That would mean FoW's, Compulsions, Lim-Dul's Vaults, Frantic Search, Brainstorm etc. Problems with blue are that I usually don't have that another card that I would need with FoW and that non-powered deck can't seem to have enough mana to make Compulsion that good.

It's really hard to say anything about my meta because the vintage group is just getting started here and sanctioned tournaments are starting. I'm guessing control will be somewhat played.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

[EDIT] Sideboard is completely open to suggestions, I was thinking using Sundering Titans and/or Verdant Force and some artifact hate in form of Naturalize.

[Shock Wave]

Your build has some serious deficiencies, most notably:

- You have no way of making use of your creatures if you draw them. That means you have 6 cards that are totally dead draws. You desperately need discard outlets.

Consider: Last Rites, Zombie Infestation. There are probably others, these are just off the top of my head.

- You have no way to generate card advantage. This was the problem with Dragon decks in the past and was the primary reason for the implementation of the Squee/Bazaar engine. If you're not planning on using Bazaars, you'll have to look at other ways to keep your deck flowing. A deck that is standing still is almost always a losing deck.

- You have no way to flashback your Cabal Therapy!

Consider:

- Compulsion/Careful Study + Squee (with the addition of blue, of course)
- Zombie Infestation + Squee in a BR build (has awesome synergy with Cabal Therapy)

I think you're on the right track with the BG avenue. I think it is the best option to consider if you're on a tight budget. You could go the Reanimator route with Survival/Xantid Swarm.

In any case, those are some ideas to get you started. Try to build your own decklists and playtest them to get a real feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the deck, and from there, the card choices will come naturally to you. It will undoubtedly improve your skills with the deck as well.

[instiqma]

Your build has some serious deficiencies, most notably:

- You have no way of making use of your creatures if you draw them. That means you have 6 cards that are totally dead draws. You desperately need discard outlets.

Consider: Last Rites, Zombie Infestation. There are probably others, these are just off the top of my head.

I have Cabal Therapy. I know, it's not much but I know Zombie Infestation sucks. Last Rites could be an option, but it doesn't seem that great either.

- You have no way to generate card advantage. This was the problem with Dragon decks in the past and was the primary reason for the implementation of the Squee/Bazaar engine. If you're not planning on using Bazaars, you'll have to look at other ways to keep your deck flowing. A deck that is standing still is almost always a losing deck.

- You have no way to flashback your Cabal Therapy!

Consider:

- Compulsion/Careful Study + Squee (with the addition of blue, of course)
- Zombie Infestation + Squee in a BR build (has awesome synergy with Cabal Therapy)

I think you're on the right track with the BG avenue. I think it is the best option to consider if you're on a tight budget. You could go the Reanimator route with Survival/Xantid Swarm.

In any case, those are some ideas to get you started. Try to build your own decklists and playtest them to get a real feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the deck, and from there, the card choices will come naturally to you. It will undoubtedly improve your skills with the deck as well.

I completely forgot to list one of the best green cards: Pernicious Deed. It would be great in the board.

[crazynlazy]

If you are going to play dragon you should probably play blue (maybe green for xantid swarms gut you don't really need it). But if you add blue it gives you compulsion, intuition, FoW's... and if you put in compulsions squee is really good too. Hope I helped.

[Gluemy]

I would cut Cabal Therapies and try to fit FOWs in. Also Bazaars would be great, 'couse this looks like very slow (compared to other Dragons that I've seen)...heh!

[AnFgangsta]

Hmm Gluemy..you do realize that Therapy is a way of discarding right..and shockwave you dont need to flash it back, its disruption against your opponent, and when in a bind a nice discard for you.

Since there is a lack of Bazaars I would HIGHLY suggest attunement, its just amazing in this sort of deck, much better than compulsion in my opinion. That would maybe encourage the use of Ancient Tombs to feed the Intuitions I would also run.

As for FoW...I mean It CAN be useful in this deck but my experience of seeing it played its not super effective, I mean if you end up having room, ofcourse play it, but if you dont I would not start panicing..again you are playing Duress and Therapy.

[Shock Wave]

Hmm Gluemy..you do realize that Therapy is a way of discarding right..and shockwave you dont need to flash it back, its disruption against your opponent, and when in a bind a nice discard for you.

That is an absolutely attrocious method of discarding your dragons, especially considering the deck has no way to flashback the Therapy.

[ELD]

for extreme budget, I personally like voldian merchant.  He acts as a discard outlet, and makes you win when you animate a dragon.

[Imsomniac101]

If you want budget, I would consider something like this:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
     4 Duress
     3 Xantid Swarm
     1 Crop Rotation
     1 Entomb
     2 Engineered Explosives
     1 Vampiric Tutor
     1 Demonic Tutor
     2 Dance of the Dead
     3 Necromancy
     3 Animate Dead
     4 Worldgorger Dragon
     4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
     1 Ambassador Laquatus
     1 Caller of the Claw
     4 Bazaar of Baghdad
     1 Strip Mine
     4 Wasteland
     5 Swamp
     4 Polluted Delta
     4 Bayou
     1 Sol Ring
     1 Mana Crypt
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Emerald
     1 Black Lotus
     2 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Sideboard:
SB:  2 Verdant Force
SB:  1 Sundering Titan
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  3 Oxidize
SB:  3 Chalice of the Void
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives

The Wastelands hold the game up for you until an Animate Dead hits play. Its not exactly perfect but I've won quite a few matches with this build.

[AnFgangsta]

Hmm Shock Wave:
My comment about Cabal Therapy was just a suggestion, you may recall how reanimator used to use it in this manner. The lack of Bazaars does not leave too too many options open, again Im going to reiterate that Attunement may be one of, if not the best engine for this alone with Intuition.

Also @ Shock Wave:
When I mentioned Therapy used for the Dragon, I was simply noting its versatility.  I did not see FoW in his build, and we all know 4 Duress is not going to cut it. His first pose included Therapy and you mentioned it may not be a good idea because you cannot flash it back. My comment was to simply state you can 1. take out your opponents hand and 2. in a last ditch efford get rid of Dragon or something. I did not say its only used for Dragon, I just think its a nifty card, that if you arent running FoW might be a good idea because of the 2 ways it can be used.  Sure, flashing it back is always fun, but hey, you gotta take what you can get.

[instiqma]

If you want budget, I would consider something like this:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
*snip*    

If this is a budget build, I really don't know what will make dragon a non-budget deck?  :shock:

And I could afford a playset of Bayous. That suggestion about using Vodalian Merchant made me think that I have given a bit of a misleading image of my budget. I can afford a playset of duals. I cannot afford a playset of Bazaars or any Powers.

I have felt that Cabal Therapy is a very versatile card. It can be devastating when played after Duress. It can fetch out the possible FoW's first turn from your opponents hand and if you really can't find anything else, you can use it to discard your Dragon(s) or your win condition.

I'm going to make this a BG deck. I was thinking about maindecking xantid swarms, but then it would mean that Cabal Therapys would have to go. I really can't see any other card it could replace. Then there are of course ESG's and possibly even Survival of the Fittest.

What I really need right now is some ideas how to make this deck BG and how to make this deck more control resilient.

[crazynlazy]

I think he meant budget as in only 3 power. As to making your deck better I think BU would be better than BG (I think all of them together are best.) Do they allow any proxies? if they do than you could run BGU but if there are no proxies i still think BU is better.

[AnFgangsta]

Yes, Therapy is a versatile card, but I mean not playing U in dragon is a mistake. Black offers what? Therapy and Buried Alive as far as dumping stuff in the grave? U offers Drawing, dumping, as well as some utility.  I understand since you said you dont have power that U does lose some of its power, however in most tournaments proxies are allowed, and even if not, run Ancient Tombs and all that good stuff to feed into Attunement/Intuition because they are wonderful when you dont have bazaars.

As shock wave alluded to, Therapy should not be sole considered a dumping card, not really thought of as one, so when you think about it that way, your only dumper is Buried Alive if Im not mistaking..you do need U its that plain and simple.

[Evilkin]

If you have no Bazaar, I would run Zombie Infestation as another discard outlet.  Maybe add a Verdant or Slagwurm to the deck.  You can also use Unmask for disruption.  Although, If you do add Infestations you should be able to flashback Therapy with zombie tokens.

[Shock Wave]

Hmm Shock Wave:
My comment about Cabal Therapy was just a suggestion, you may recall how reanimator used to use it in this manner. The lack of Bazaars does not leave too too many options open, again Im going to reiterate that Attunement may be one of, if not the best engine for this alone with Intuition.

Also @ Shock Wave:
When I mentioned Therapy used for the Dragon, I was simply noting its versatility.  I did not see FoW in his build, and we all know 4 Duress is not going to cut it. His first pose included Therapy and you mentioned it may not be a good idea because you cannot flash it back. My comment was to simply state you can 1. take out your opponents hand and 2. in a last ditch efford get rid of Dragon or something. I did not say its only used for Dragon, I just think its a nifty card, that if you arent running FoW might be a good idea because of the 2 ways it can be used.  Sure, flashing it back is always fun, but hey, you gotta take what you can get.

Yeah, it is good and all that Therapy doubles as a discard outlet, however this deck already has enough weaknesses that using its disruption as discard outlets is only compounding the problem. The deck needs dedicated discard outlets and a better midgame (ie. some sort of draw engine or more disruption). Without addressing these issues, this deck will not win, I can wholeheartedly assure you of that.

[instiqma]

Yes, Therapy is a versatile card, but I mean not playing U in dragon is a mistake. Black offers what? Therapy and Buried Alive as far as dumping stuff in the grave? U offers Drawing, dumping, as well as some utility.  I understand since you said you dont have power that U does lose some of its power, however in most tournaments proxies are allowed, and even if not, run Ancient Tombs and all that good stuff to feed into Attunement/Intuition because they are wonderful when you dont have bazaars.

I have tried blue. Without powers, it's really slow. If you play blue, you want to play Force of Wills and I found that I can't usually even use it because I don't have that-another-blue-card in hand. Blue gives me much better mid-game than mono black, but I don't think Dragon should play games that tend to go post turn 4.

And the advantages of mono black are not great. The biggest advantage is that it has a Wasteland-proof manabase.

Compulsion is great and all, but it just requires too much mana to use.

[oldbsturgeon]

being someone who has the bazaars and some of the power, i am going to say something that has been said many times before. this deck really works the best with the bazaars. the other cards just make it faster, but the bazaars are the cards that help the deck in many matches.
with that said maybe try something like this
4 buried alive
1 entomb
3 worldgorger dragon
1 verdant force
1 ambassador laquatus
3 xantid swarm
4 duress
3 unmask
4 spoils of the vault
1 demonic consultation
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
4 animate dead
3 necromancy
2 zombie infestation
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide
4 bayou
1 chrome mox
1 lotus petal
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
8 swamp
with 24 mana sources you can probably get stuff in the yard pretty fast. i want to state again that without bazaars the deck is not nearly as good, but in an underestablished vintage scene, it could still work.

[Shock Wave]

That's a solid-looking budget build.

[instiqma]

That's just the kind of deck I was thinking.

The only question is that is Zombie Infestation actually better than for example Survival of the Fittest?

[dicemanx]

There are so many interesting directions you can take the budget builds in. Survival builds have been proposed before but no one developed anything solid, and Zombie Infestation builds (as evilkin suggested) where you go reanimator style might have some merit as well. The other relatively unexplored avenue is Hermit Druid.

Just to give examples of the possibilities, here's a deck that uses non-artifact acceleration and Druids to strengthen the Cabal Therapies while offering some versatility (reanimator style):

engine (26)
--------------
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Hermit Druid

3x Buried Alive
1x Entomb

4x Animate Dead
3x Necromancy

3x Worldgorger Dragon
2x Sliver Queen
1x Verdant Force
1x Shivan Hellkite
1x Squee
 
Disruption (9)
-----------------
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Xantid Swarm


Mana (25)
------------
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
3x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Bayou
3x Llanowar Wastes
1x Swamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt



Not saying that the build is perfect, but you can have some fun with it and experiment a little. If you try to build an "unpowered" version of the Bazaar build you are doomed to fail in my opinion, so you might as well try something entirely new and original and confuse the opponent in the process.

[BigMac]

If you build an unpowered, non bazaar dragon deck, with BG, i think the best engine you can build is a survival build.

You can look for critters while it is also a discard outlet. This will make your critters not a dead card while filtering your deck. And the advantage i see is the anticipation on other decks. You could actually have an answer for most decks in your sideboard you can look for with that card.

Playing it a little as reanimator could very well win you games you normally would lose.

Critters i am thinking of with reanimator spells are Sundering titan, crater hellion and perhaps a lost squee. But this depends on the metagame. Even a welder could be in there, although i would not recommend that to much.

Anyways, good luck to you.

[oldbsturgeon]

yea that build with the druid and survival would definitely confuse the opponent. they think you are playing angry hermit or something then, BAM, dragon combo.
this buid is interesting because while it gets the cards in the yard fast via druid, its still a bit slow due the the mana acceleration costing mana to cast. it looks fun, but i'll stick to the bazaars