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Author Topic: Bringing Down the Giants (how to hose a tier1)  (Read 1288 times)
Eight-Gunner
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« on: March 31, 2005, 03:18:11 am »

Good afternoon, class.  Today we will be looking at the meanest, fastest, most domineering type1 tier1 decks -- and how to break them.

   First, let's look at the playing field.  Belcher, TPS, Dragon, Oath, Assassin, Slaver, Topdeck, Stax, Psychatog, Morphling, and several others that slip my mind ATM.  Any one I missed, post it for me and I'll touch on it.
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   Belcher is absurdly fast, a reliable turn 1-2 win if unopposed.  No deck can outrun Belcher, so breaking Belcher is critical.  If you go first, Chalice of the Void for 0 or 1 can do it.  Null Rod will do it.  If you go second, you may not get a turn before you defend yourself.
   Assuming you manage to beat Belcher, it will go first next game.  To have a good chance at winning, Force of Will AND Foil in the same deck is a good idea despite what Foil's critics say.  If you get a turn, Annul is another good counterspell against the Belcher.  By turn 2, you should be set for an easy control victory.
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   TPS is as almost as fast as Belcher, usually winning on its 2nd turn.  Chalice and Null Rod work here too, as are the 3 listed counterspells.  In addition, other colors have a few surprises for TPS.  Pyrostatic Pillar, Meddling Mage, True Believer, Root Maze, and Chains of Mephistopheles tend to end things for TPS a good portion of the time.
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   Dragon is a t2-3 win, when it's working properly.  Killing/bouncing the Worldgorger is the simplest tactic, as there are 12 enchantments to raise the dragon.  Seal of Removal works best, Although Swords to Plowshares or any 1 mana bounce will work if you play enough to avoid Duress and Cabal Therapy.  Ground Seal, Root Maze, Ankh of Mishra, Zozu the Punisher, Soul Warden, Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, and even a Seal of Removal more than shut Dragon down.
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   Oath is ideally a t2 win, but needs a 2 card combo plus a mox to do it.  Most Oath decks are running a slower setup that doesn't kill until t3-4.  It's a permission-style deck, so the ideal defense is a land defense.  Forbidden Orchard, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, and High Market do a great job of reversing the oath in your favor.  Extract, Planar Void, and Gilded Drake can also short-circuit the deck -- although they can be hard to play, considering Oath's counterspell arsenol.
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   Cerebral Assassin is a deck I'm not familiar enough with yet to make much comment on, although Extract to hit the Possessed Portal takes away its nastiest weapon.  I'll be following this deck to see what makes it tick, and what makes it stop ticking.
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   The apparent success of Slaver is a mystery to me, because it sports only light control before the slaver lock and is almost entirely dependant on a healthy Goblin Welder.  Burn decks will eat Slaver, just don't spend your burn early so you can be sure the welders die.  Null Rod can be a killer if you can get it past the deck's 8-12 counterspells, but only if you play no other artifacts.  True Believer, Planar Void, Ground Seal, Goblin Welders of your own can wreak havoc on Slaver's ability to fight.
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   Topdeck...2-4 Gaea's Blessings beats topdeck.  Serra Avatar, Darksteel Colossus, and a few other less usable cards beat topdeck.  I predict a b/u topdeck on the horizon, running Planar Void and Duress.  To beat that, Null Rod or Chains of Mephistopheles works best.
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   Stax, Psychatog, and Morphling are waiting in the wings, looking to become top dog again.  I'll do them, and any other decks you think should be on the list, in my next post.

   If you didn't need this info, why'd you read this far? Wink
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E Face
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2005, 04:03:23 am »

Quote
If you didn't need this info, why'd you read this far?


Wow... It sure is refreshing to see people tell us how to beat decks in the format...*cough not cough*  Rolling Eyes

After reading this post and your other post, I wonder why it is you believe it is important to get into these forums to "teach" players how to play, win, shuffle, scoop, etc...

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Ground Seal, Root Maze, Ankh of Mishra, Zozu the Punisher, Soul Warden, Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, and even a Seal of Removal more than shut Dragon down.


These types of things are obvious to most players on TMD, and moreover, telling somebody that Soul Warden will shut down Dragon is just ridiculous, because, well, you can figure that one out. (Ambassador, Witness/Ancestral)

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The apparent success of Slaver is a mystery to me, because it sports only light control before the slaver lock and is almost entirely dependant on a healthy Goblin Welder.


The success of Slaver is not a mystery. The deck is ridiculously powerful. Many times one single Slaver activation will win the game, and almost always a Slaver activation will put the CS player so far ahead it will be nearly impossible to recover from it. Slaver is also probably the most resilient deck in the format, one of its biggest assests and contributors to its success. Holding Welders at bay will improve the matchup, but it will not win the match. Tinker will break games, and Yawg's Win will always either put CS back on top in a losing battle or simply smash the opposing players face in.

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Topdeck...2-4 Gaea's Blessings beats topdeck. Serra Avatar, Darksteel Colossus, and a few other less usable cards beat topdeck

Sure, blessings are nice, but unless i'm playing Oath I probably dont have them. And if I have one Serra Avatar in my deck after being Brainfreezed for 3489304 cards I have ONE TURN to win, after that, I draw nothing and I still lose, unless I have a PERMANENT discard engine that CANT BE STOPPED. Even then, I only have the resources in play and those in my hand to win with.

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Good afternoon, class.


If this were a college course, I just dropped your class on the first day.
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Necrologia
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2005, 04:10:34 am »

Well I was going to post a lengthy reply but it looks like E Face beat me to it. About the only thing I'd like to add is that a line of dashes looks much more cluttered than a simple return. Try handing in an english paper with ------ in between each paragraph. I'm telling you right now it won't fly.
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Kowal
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2005, 04:35:56 am »

This thread sucks, but I did want to point out something.

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Sure, blessings are nice, but unless i'm playing Oath I probably dont have them. And if I have one Serra Avatar in my deck after being Brainfreezed for 3489304 cards I have ONE TURN to win, after that, I draw nothing and I still lose, unless I have a PERMANENT discard engine that CANT BE STOPPED. Even then, I only have the resources in play and those in my hand to win with.


Brain Freeze storm copies resolve after a blessing trigger.  Therefore, it's quite a bit more than possible that you won't be in the situation you describe unless you're running colossus/avatar where there's only that one card in your deck.

But of course, Sensei runs a Stifle in the sideboard that deals with blessing, so who cares?  Likewise, if you are in that position, how hard is it to aim Deep Analysis at you after my brain freeze copies resolve?
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2005, 08:12:59 am »

Also, I thought the use of tiers was frowned upon here?
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warble
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2005, 09:19:27 am »

Are you asking what cards most reliably hose tier 1 decks?

If that is the case, STIFLE would be numero uno.  It takes out I believe all of the decks you named.  If you're willing to run a few Stifles in your maindeck you can hose a tier 1 deck.  There is the obvious aggro kicking your butt when you draw dead cards, though, but in that instance you just use stifle as a 1-cost wasteland for their fetch.  So it's really not ever a dead card, and since we're contemplating hosers and you haven't named the most reliable one that is actually a mainstay of a few decks (GAT, Tog, Landstill, Monoblue) I'd say your lesson was terrible.

You went off on a rant about what "could" hose top tier decks and you forgot what DOES hose top tier decks.  That would be:

4x Force of Will
4x Duress
Stifle

What, you forgot your basics?  Is this the "elite" hoser lesson?
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2005, 02:19:58 pm »

This thread breaks the very basic rule of knowing what you're talking about before you say something. Some others too, but that's the real problem here.

Closed.
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