a "flame retardant" TPS

[einlanzer625]

Manas:
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Flooded Strand
1 Badlands
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

Good broken stuff:
1 DREAM HALLS
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar

finding the brokenness:
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Burning Wish

new hotness:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Dark Ritual
1 Recoup
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
win:
1 Tendrils of Agony

season the board to your taste, but i heavily recommend a gilded drake, a DSC, a primitive justice, and a time spiral, obviously id include another tendrils as well .

Now, the reason for dream halls being capitalized:
This card is from what my testing states, the card that makes this deck not "flame out" .  You have those amazing turns where you go for 22 spells or so, and cant find your tendrils or a desire to get it, nor can you find your burning wish, or you simply run out of mana.  With this little 5 mana enchantment on the board, as long as you have two on color cards in hand, you can keep going.  With the huge amount of blue and black in the deck, it really is not that hard to pull off.  

The reasons i dont like 4 gifts are mostly the same that ive seen on this thread so far.  Drawing more than one is overkill, having 2 in your opening hand seems not so good, and it slows the deck down a tad.  Yes the slowdown can be played around, but you have to test the deck differently if you do choose to go that route.  Its the difference between a turn three and turn four kill, which can be huge in this format.  

Take a look at the last few SCG P9 winners, most of them ran 3sphere and/or Sphere of Resistance, this deck has the tools to get around them, and when your rebuilds/hurkyl's recalls only cost 1 or 3 COLORLESS instead of 2U, you can fire them off easier (im referring to playing them via halls).

So all of you TPS players out there, i urge you to try dream halls in your decks.

Also, testing against the workshop decks, id highly recommend hurkyl's over rebuild in the main, and running one of each in the board, especially if they run timetwister.  I have had many instances where a timetwister fired off by me or my opponent was responded to by me with a hurkyl's recall targeting them to break their lock.

Give me thoughts on this please
Also, if you ask real nice, ill post the board im using right now.

[Freelancer]

First; Sorry to say this but Dream halls sucks in TPS, did you test this? I did, it isn't worth countering gives your opponent free mana drains and extra forces barely helps you and is only really usefull with stuff like minds desire and bargain...Everything else is relativly easy to cast...

Second; You are running R for recoup ,burning wish and wheel (if I didn't miss anything) yet you only run a single gifts, you need to model your deck after gifts but if you do that I would suggest adding some more (upping the count to 2/3) if you draw multiples to bad you can always use them as bait or to get some protection and mana...(duress,force,ritual,mox is always good )

This looks like a jank version off TPS and gifts trown together, with to little gifts in the mix...Gifts ungiven works fine on its own, you really don't have to waste another slot for recoup (against TPS I would -almost- never let a gifts resolve)...

[einlanzer625]

hoestly, yes i HAVE tested it, and it seems most people either never have, or dont want to counter the halls.  and when they dont, its lights out.

[Moxlotus]

hoestly, yes i HAVE tested it, and it seems most people either never have, or dont want to counter the halls.  and when they dont, its lights out.

Wow-some people suck ass at this game. Halls is obviously an engine card-why the hell wouldn't you counter an engine card.  That's like not countering that Bargain.  Whomever you were playing against does not deserve to play with blue cards.

-- This is the noob forum. Keep it nice plz, tks. -- Leviat

[einlanzer625]

i agree sir, i laughed at him then won as immediately as i could.

of course after that he learned to at least try to counter dream halls.

[Freelancer]

What I was trieing to point out is that TPS really doesn't need hall, if you can cast a hall than you have plenty off mana already...Why bother casting it?

[Bakes]

O my god. Why the hell would you run three colors in TPS. You  would need two turns to get out your volcanic island and underground sea- and this deck sucks without the underground sea. This would also need you to get out two fetches by turn two to even get a second turn win. TPS is supposed to go off turn 1 or two, maybe even three but, overall relying on your fetchlands and getting godly draws is not the way to play TPS.

[Freelancer]

Actually the idea off TPS is;
Stable manabase
Strong protection
Slower combo
Fewer bombs (protection over bombs)

Wich usually means they go off around turn 2/3 and occasionally turn 1...

What you did is; Add a expensive situational card, slowed TPS down and you weakened the manabase...This is not the way to go with TPS...Your good testing results is probably carried on the fact that you still have the basic TPS mold wich drags you through games...

[Phele]

Actually TPS with a red splash is quite goood. The main reason for that is Recoup, which is just überbroken in this deck, as in many others. Instead of just draw-7ing, and eventually killing, you have a safe game ender by gifting for Recoup, even though it is a bit slower. For that  I would never go under 2 Gifts in this deck, which always is pretty usefull when you cast it. Red also gives you REB/Pyroblast for the sideboard, which are perfect ad-ons against control, not only countering their main stuff. It even gets one of your biggest enemies, Arcane Laboratory, from the table. Burning Wish and Wheel are soso, but natural fits, when you splash red. The UBr-TPS has proven its value by going top3 in the biggest German Vintage-tournament twice. I finished at both tourneys with almost the same version 14. and 22. out of more than 120 participants. So far for the red-splash.

On Dream Halls: I allways have seen this as a bad win-more-card. When I use five mana, which isn't just colorless, I want to cast a direct game-winner like Desire or Bargain. Getting the needed mana to cast spells, when I'm allready on the winning path, has never been a problem for me. I would rather include Future Sight than Dream Halls, without saying, that there is any need for it. By the way: Cutting Chain of Vapor out of a version without Cunning Wish leaves you more vulnerable to hate. I wouldn't do that. Some good players over here have done the same step, but I prefer to play one land less and include Chain instead, which is also a gordious storm-enabler. Just my two cents.

[einlanzer625]

actually phele, i never rain chain of vapor .  The decklist i started with came off morphling.de, which is of course not exactly the place i would wanna go for metagame calls for the US.  Of course ill admit that, but it happens to be the version i liked the most.   I played around with four or five versions, and i might remove the halls for a second gifts but i doubt it as of right now.  Its more there for the surprise "wtf" factor that it brings and the "oh crap i HAVE to counter this" factor as well.

Any suggestions of what i should cut (other than halls) for a chain of vapor? or a REB because they seem very very good.

here's the current board im using:
3 BEB
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Spiral
1 Deep Analysis
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gilded Drake (really good to switch for a colossus, or even a welder or a platty )
1 Tendrils
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (mox monkey, welder, etc)
1 Primitive Justice
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stifle

any ideas would be great, as im debating killing the explosives for two rebs

[Freelancer]

In my experience I never really needed recoup in TPS, usually gifting for mana/bombs/protection is enough to win the game next turn. Also a recoup is total crap when topdecked...
IMHO it isn't worth it to run R for 'just' wheel, burning wish (hardly needed) and REB.
My biggest problem with a R splash is that your fetches will now pull double dutie if you have a R card in hand, on one hand they need to fetch basics and on the other volcanic island. If a regular draw has for instance;
2x fetch + R card + U card + B card (wich will happen regulary) you have to fetch a non-basic, and preferably two if you want to play U and B before R (wich is common, think duress-gifts-recoup) wich leaves your manabase quite vulnerable to wasteland. While on the other hand if the R card was a U card it would turn into two basics. Those kinda situations happened way to often to my liking. (more situations; U B R cards non-basic and fetch in hand, only a volcanic island in hand and there are quite a lot more)

On Dream Halls: I allways have seen this as a bad win-more-card. When I use five mana, which isn't just colorless, I want to cast a direct game-winner like Desire or Bargain. Getting the needed mana to cast spells, when I'm allready on the winning path, has never been a problem for me. I would rather include Future Sight than Dream Halls, without saying, that there is any need for it. By the way: Cutting Chain of Vapor out of a version without Cunning Wish leaves you more vulnerable to hate. I wouldn't do that. Some good players over here have done the same step, but I prefer to play one land less and include Chain instead, which is also a gordious storm-enabler. Just my two cents.

Quoted for truthness...

[einlanzer625]

so you guys are saying -1 halls -1 recoup, +1 chain of vapor, +1 gifts?

just making sure im getting this right, as its very early and sleep decided to be the elusive one last night.

[Freelancer]

What phele is suggesting is;
-1 dream halls
+1 gifts

What I am suggesting is (huge chance);
-3 Red cards
-1 dreams halls
+1 gifts
+3 good card drawers (FoF, deep analysis, skeletal scrying, gush, frantic search add whatever you like -check http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20200 for a TPS discussion about cutting draw7's and adding in draw-)

[forests failed you]

I give you props for trying out new cards and concepts in TPS, however your fellow Manadrainers are right.  Dream Halls is both slow and situational, and it would probably be better to play something like Gifts in the maindeck instead.  If you are interested in playing with more expensive combo cards like Dream Halls you should look at some deck lists for Academy.  That deck makes a lot of mana and plays with more expensive/broken cards like Dream Halls, Future Sight, and Mind Over Matter.  I dusted the deck off last year for a few tournaments and was fairly successful with it.

Just a thought, good luck.

[doylehancock]

red isnt worth it.  Go to here http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6182

that is what TPS should look like.  Drop halls drop red drop gifts.

I have ran both TPS and gifts belcher and I dont see them being a good deck combined.  Gifts is a great card but only in some decks.

Good luck.

[Freelancer]

that is what TPS should look like. Drop halls drop red drop gifts.

Drop gifts?



Are you crazy? Gifts is totally insane in TPS, starcitygames decks to beat is just a guideline you know. They are surtenly not perfect builds (used in particular metagames, older lists).
What is your base off the argument against gifts? Does it not get you bombs? Does it not set up a lethal will? Does it not get mana? Does it not get protection? Does it not get draw? What doesn't it do? maybe not as good as in gifts belcher, but that's a deck build around gifts. Wich is a huge difference.

[doylehancock]

that is what TPS should look like. Drop halls drop red drop gifts.
[/quote

Drop gifts?



Are you crazy? Gifts is totally insane in TPS, starcitygames decks to beat is just a guideline you know. They are surtenly not perfect builds (used in particular metagames, older lists).
What is your base off the argument against gifts? Does it not get you bombs? Does it not set up a lethal will? Does it not get mana? Does it not get protection? Does it not get draw? What doesn't it do? maybe not as good as in gifts belcher, but that's a deck build around gifts. Wich is a huge difference.

TPS has a stable mana base.  Adding red will not be helping the mana base will it?  Drop gifts because its not worth running red (for recoup) and affecting your mana base.  

Its 4 to cast and whats the point in TPS?  Why do you need to waste the 4 mana on getting two cards when with 4 mana you will start to go off and not need it in the first place?  

TPS w/o gifts is better then gifts belcher.  


So if you feel gifts belcher is better than tps with gifts why run gifts?

[einlanzer625]

red isnt worth it.  Go to here http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6182

that is what TPS should look like.  Drop halls drop red drop gifts.

I have ran both TPS and gifts belcher and I dont see them being a good deck combined.  Gifts is a great card but only in some decks.

Good luck.

if you look over that decklist, it HAS gifts in it 2 of them actually.


and to be quite honest, i really do like the red in the deck, and have never liked necropotence, it just seems like id rather have a bargain which lets me win now, rather than a necro, which lets me win later.

maybe ill try out future sight, just to see if its any good in this deck.

[CMass]

Future Sight is great when it resolves; setting up the 3 blue to cast it in a timely manner is the problem.  When R&D has a really good collective acid trip and prints a blue ritual, Sight will be the next card in my TPS deck.  Until then, I'll just leave it in my binder.

I agree that there's no need to stretch your manabase to include red, but losing Recoup doesn't mean losing Gifts.  As long as YawgWill is in there I'll have Gifts along to set it up.

[Hi-Val]

What I was trieing to point out is that TPS really doesn't need hall, if you can cast a hall than you have plenty off mana already...Why bother casting it?

I found in testing TPS that the deck leans far harder on its Dark Rits and Moxes than any other combo deck I've played. You NEED to hit several of each or you aren't going to be going off. I've had Dream Halls in my stack for a few weeks now and I really like it. Sometimes you'll end up Twistering and getting no mana in your new hand. This will end you. Halls costs a bitchload of mana, but when it comes down it means that you don't have to make any mana any more ever. That's a powerful thing to be giving to a combo deck! Although I'm not stuck on the Halls, I am enjoying them. I certainly win more with it on the table than when not, and it pulls me out of jams. It's the card I like seeing most because it means that I can storm up with impunity after it hits.

However, I'm not all that experienced with TPS; my intuition tells me to put in many, many Gifts Ungiven. On the subject of the deck, I trust the Europeans most, because they've been playing with the damn deck for so long. Gifts and Halls are a way I find to reduce the dreaded fizzle factor that can hit TPS because of its low bomb concentration.

[Freelancer]

Yes indeed the deck relies a lot on its rituals and moxen to pull itself out off tight spots. But gifts also finds these if needed to be. Not to mention that if you somehow manage to find the mana to cast a hall shouldn't you just be concerned with casting your other spells the normal way?

Why would you want to add red to the manabase and weaken it in the process. I for one already cutted all off the draw7's and added in more draw and I really liked it. It does slow you down a bit more, but usually you aren't capable off racing any other storm combo decks anyway and your still faster than most control decks and aggro decks. The extra draw ensured that I was able to find whatever bombs I needed with the mana and protection to cast them.

Its 4 to cast and whats the point in TPS? Why do you need to waste the 4 mana on getting two cards when with 4 mana you will start to go off and not need it in the first place?

TPS w/o gifts is better then gifts belcher.


So if you feel gifts belcher is better than tps with gifts why run gifts?

Yes its 4 to cast, and yes if you have the bombs to win you should be concerned with winning. But if you don't have protection or a bomb in hand you can gift for either. Mana isn't the only constraint to going off you know.

You misunderstood me, I feel gifts is better in gifts belcher I don't think however gifts belcher is overall better than TPS. Gifts belcher just utilizes gifts better than TPS (wich isn't a suprise, considering gifts belcher is build around gifts), TPS however has other quality's that are just as important as using gifts well. It also doesn't mean that if TPS can't utilize gifts as good as gifts belcher that gifts ungiven is bad in TPS.
Okay I feel like I said this twice now, so read carefully (I am aware that I might say things a bit awkward) and trie and understand me. I only want to help out here.

and to be quite honest, i really do like the red in the deck, and have never liked necropotence, it just seems like id rather have a bargain which lets me win now, rather than a necro, which lets me win later.

Never cut necropotence in TPS. That card when resolved will force the opponent to win within the next few turns, while you are digging for duress and forces to disrupt him. Resolved it almost always ensures a win, that a necropotence is worse when resolved than a resolved bargain has no relevance. If I am capable off resolving either than I'm in a really good position to win the game and it shouldn't matter.

[doylehancock]

I see what your saying.  I playtested it with gifts and it was pretty good.  I cant tell if its better with or without gifts.  I am obviously sided to without but I am not sure on that decision.

I am certain though if you run gifts tps you should run 2 not anymore or any less.  I will continue to playtest and tell you what I figure out.

[einlanzer625]

honestly, im just not a necro fan.  Its a matter of personal preference, and I dont really miss it at all.

[Freelancer]

honestly, im just not a necro fan. Its a matter of personal preference, and I dont really miss it at all.

Sorry to break it to you but its NOT a personal preference. Its another solid bomb that TPS needs to compete. The most hated turn 1 card (besides bargain/lethal tendrills) is a necro. If resolved its almost always game over since you get to draw into force and the win, meaning that you will probably survive untill the next turn and win. If you don't 'like' a card that essentially says; 'I win next turn with force/duress backup, and if you stop me I will trie again and again' than there's something seriously wrong with your playtesting and understanding off this deck. (you get to draw 19 (!) cards over several turns? Sign me up!)

I don't know how to explain this to you, but necro is simply essential and cannot be cut.

[Petey4335]

The reason I will not run Dream Halls in TPS is Dream Halls creates a situation where the opponents Counterspells and Mana Drains all turn into Force of Will.