[Deck] Sushi

[Eandori]

Why the name Sushi?  Well the merfolk are kinda fishy, and the white is the rice.  

I've been playing this deck for awhile now in the Vintage format around my area.  The metagame in my area is probably pretty typical, I see lots of Control Slaver, and Oath.  Some Stax, some Landstill.  Nobody plays belcher, and nearly nobody plays Workshop.  Then there's lots of cheaper custom decks that show up at our tournament.  Stuff from Goblin decks, to stasis decks.  Pretty diverse.

Sushi has taken out Control Slaver, Psychatogg, Meandeck Oath, Workshop(stax), and Landstill already.  It's more powerfull then it looks at first glance.  Where does that power come from?  Well in my opinion it comes from the simple tactics using basic lands, efficient creatures, card advantage, and lots of countermagic and white control.

I've been waiting to post this deck on this board until I felt I had a pretty solid build that was not changing much.  I feel that I have hit that point now and I'm focusing on the sideboard now.  It's a fairly simple deck to play, the tough points are how aggresively do you cast against what deck, and holding the proper spells as long as you can to gain max card advantage.  Other then that, draw it, you play it.

Isochron Scepter gains HUGE advantage in this deck.  Your choices are Ancestral Recall(Broken), Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, and Mana Drain.  Every one of those has been imprinted for me and has been very usefull.  The most of course is the Recall and Mana Drain.  Whether or not to just cast that instant, or hold it for a Scepter is often a tough choice.  Especially when playing a very offensive deck.

This deck packs your typical 8 Vintage counterspells, 4 drains, 4 Force.  I tried it with more, and I tried it with less.  These 8 seem to be the right balance of countermagic Vs. tactic.  Both the Drains and Force play right into the deck, as there is lots of blue to pitch for the Force, and Drain feeds the mana needs very well with few burns.

4 Flooded Strands, 5 islands, and 1 plains gives huge defense versus Wasteland/Back to Basics/etc.  Flooded Strands also work extremely well with Brainstorm by itself, or on an Isochron Scepter.

The 2 Disenchants, 2 Swords to Plowshares, Moat, and Balance provide a large amount of creature control.  My current sideboard has 2 more Disenchants, and 2 more Plows in case you need to change ratios.  I also pack an extra Moat in the Sideboard if you need to make sure you draw it.  Lots of games have been won using all of these, and my creatures to stay alive while setting up my base engine of a flipped Jushi, Scepters with Mana Drains/Brainstorm/Swords imprinted.  Then I twist, and outdraw my opponent for the win.

Why Lord of Atlantis?  Well he's fairly cheap, but mainly he supports the big gun of this deck, Rootwater Thief.  He's a MONSTER.  Thief comes out first turn, and rips apart nearly any combo deck that can't stop him on turn 2.  My favorite first turn play versus Oath decks is the Thief.  His ability to fly gets him over the moat in creature lock games.  Where the moat is in play, your opponent has 8+ creatures waiting for a disenchant, and your just gaining card advantage and sending your Thiefs over the top.

If I could change one thing about the deck, I would find room for more tutors.  But everytime I try that, the deck seems to weaken overall.

In the sideboard, I have Abeyance and Interdict.  Both shut down different opponent abilities, and both cantrip.  Anything that draws a card is powerfull on the Isochron, but Abeyance and Interdict?  Another step up indeed.

I know lots of very knowledgable people run around these forums, and I'm expecting to get flames and differing opinions as well as interested posters about this deck.  My only request is that before you knock it, you actually try it.  This deck suprised me quite a bit after building it, and I've been tuning it for a few months now.

Without further ado, here is the deck list.

SPELLS (34)
4 Rootwater Thief
3 Lord of Atlantis
2 [card]Jushi Apprentice[/card]
4 Brainstorm
4 Isochron Scepter
1 Moat
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

MANA SOURCES (26)
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring

SIDEBOARD (still under construction)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Abeyance
2 Interdict
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Morphling
1 Moat
2 Wasteland

I have one other deck I have been playing alot.  A 20 card change from the typical slaver deck.  Call mine Slaver USA, and I'll post it in a few days.

[Hi-Val]

Three things:

-I'd work in those other two Wastelands into the maindeck.

-Why are you running Lord Von Atlantis if you only have four creatures that they support and they're fairly worthless on their own? Why not run Meddling Mages instead?

-How do you beat Oath?

[Necrologia]

Just from a cursory glance the Moat and Timetwister seem out of place. Moat's great against aggro, but you won't see it much past the early rounds. You also lack any tutoring and have little draw, meaning that even when it could really help, you probably won't be able to find it.

Timetwister needs cut due to the power level of cards in this deck. Much like fish, you simply aren't going to be able to go as broken with your 7 cards as the opponent will be able to with his. The only reason I'd run it at all is to reset the graveyard against Tog, Dragon, or Slaver. Even then it's effectively a 3 mana Tormod's Crypt.

Outside of that the creature base seems pretty weak. Lord of Atlantis is dangerouly close to a vanilla grizzly bear, while Jushi will never flip. Ever. If you manage to flip him you've already won, and anything capable of beating down would have served you better.

[the boogie man]

I agree on both of the points that hival made, and think that you need to cut timetwister. It's been a long time since control wanted to give the oponent a new hand. I'd say that you could run a fire/ice, a fact or fiction, or anything. that would help destroy shift*91110 welders. I think that the lord of atlantis really is not that super either. maybe old man of the sea? he seems to be all the rage.

One thing, though. Do you ever plan on flipping the jushi's? if you do, then you need to draw a lot more cards. To be honest, I think that you need more draw in the first place. I really think that a bunch of fire/ice stuck on the sticksis kind of a draw engine, kind of a win condition.

[cardiffgiant]

How do you do against Fish? It seems this deck would roll over. They have better creatures, about the same quantity of disruption, and more draw. If you catch them with a Mana Drain, you'll only get one or two. Null Rod and Wastelands will cripple your development badly.

It would also seem that you'd have no game against Sligh (especially one running Tangle Wire).

I'm no expert but it feels like a deck that would have problem with the crappy aggro decks that lurk at the bottom of the tournaments.

[Moxlotus]

I agree with everybody in this thread so far and have a few more things to add.  You rely on cheap 2 mana guys, yet have to hold mana back to Mana Drain-not synergistic at all.  Also you have to give up the HOUSE that is Null Rod to run Isochron Scepter which is mana intensive and vulnerable to removal.

[Eandori]

My general reply to all statements made so far:  You need to try the deck before you make these claims.

Timetwister:  I have already won several games based on the mainboard inclusion of this spell.  Type 1 is all about graveyard these days, and removing the graveyard plus refilling your hand has nearly every time been more valuable then giving my opponent 7 cards.  Most of the time when I twist, I have a couple of mana drains etc. on Isochron scepters, Jushi IS FLIPPED and I can outdraw/counter my opponent for the win.

Jushi Apprentice:  Never flip?  Try almost every time.  I'm telling you from experience of playing this card, he flips.  Even when he doesn't he can hold back weenie creatures and draw me a card for 3 mana on my opponents discard phase.  I too was skeptical of this creature until I tried him.  I urge more of you to do the same, Jushi is powerfull.

Null Rod: The deck packs 8 counters it has to get past, and it packs 2 disenchants main board.  Beyond that you don't need the Isochrons or your artifacts to win, they just help.  Null Rod hurts yeah, like any nearly any deck in Type 1.  But it does NOT shut down this deck.

Wasteland:  No, I have not yet seen the need to have 4 Wastelands main board.  Only against certain decks, against most other decks I would rather only have 2.  Sideboard is fine, and until I find myself wishing "man, If I could just draw a wasteland" on every game, I will keep the other 2 there.

Card Draw:  Why do you need card draw?  To keep your hand full and get to your key cards.  Largely for card advantage.  The same thing is reaped by using one card to destroy multiple cards of the opponent, like what Isochron Scepter allows.  You are only looking for cards that say "draw" but I tell you, look for cards that gain card advantage...  Balance, Jushi, Ancestral, Isochron, Moat...  Old rule of magic man, what you desire is CARD ADVANTAGE not just card draw.  Drawing cards is ONE way to achieve that.

How do you beat Oath:  Rootwater Theif, he's a monster against Oath.  Comes out turn 1, and by turn 3 their win conditions are removed from game.  Swords to Plowshares removes Oaths win conditions after getting them into play.  Disenchant blows up Oath of Druids before it can activate.

Lord of Atlantis: He almost got cut several times, but his two abilities just won too many games.  Islandwalk in Type 1 is powerfull, anybody who plays River Boa knows that.  Pumping up your Thiefs is powerfull, they are all cheap creatures and can end the game in only a few turns when unstopped.  Just 1 Lord and 1 Theif means 5 turns for my opponent to live, and they can come out pretty fast.  Again, I too was doubtfull of the Lord of Atlantis but he has just been a winning factor in too many games.

Moat:  Ah, how easily players look past this card these days.  Moat is powerfull, it SHUTS DOWN so many decks.  Sundering Titan, Goblin Welder, Psychatogg, Mishra's Factory, Juggernaut, Most Goblins, Pentavus(not Pentavites), River Boa, etc. etc. etc.  Some decks are stopped dead in the water by Moat (pun intended), some just give up huge card advantage because half their creatures are no longer threats.

Again, let me state that I have BEEN BEATINGthose decks mentioned with Sushi.  Proof is in the puddin, so try the deck before you make blanket statements.

Also don't forget, not all decks need all answers.  Control Slaver has no direct artifact/enchantment destruction.  You do it through other methods, counter them in the first place, Mindslaver them and use their answers on their own cards, use the Welder to exchange your opponents artifacts to trip them up.  Don't forget, you can get around having certain cards in this game by other methods.

[Necrologia]

Most of the time when I twist, I have a couple of mana drains etc. on Isochron scepters, Jushi IS FLIPPED and I can outdraw/counter my opponent for the win.

Guess what? Lots of things seem great when you've got a few Mana Drains on Isochron scepters, and a pair of Flipped Jushis. Outside of situations when you've clearly already won, Timetwister is going to be a 3 mana Tormod's Crypt that will cost you games. Combo will go apeshit on you with 7 new cards. Shop decks drop their shiney new lock pieces you just drew them, and even scrubby red decks will try and burn you out. You'll be left doing somethng like Jushi + pass turn.

Jushi Apprentice: Never flip? Try almost every time. I'm telling you from experience of playing this card, he flips. Even when he doesn't he can hold back weenie creatures and draw me a card for 3 mana on my opponents discard phase.

Maybe it's just me, but I have trouble believing a deck that runs 3 spells capable of increasing your hand size can consistently hit 9 cards in hand. Add in the fact that both Force and the Scepters 2 for 1 you by default, and I see a deck that struggles to have 7 cards in hand, let alone 9.

Also, what weenie creatures are you holding back exactly with Jushi's massive 1/2 body? Welder beats?

Card Draw: Why do you need card draw? To keep your hand full and get to your key cards. Largely for card advantage. The same thing is reaped by using one card to destroy multiple cards of the opponent, like what Isochron Scepter allows. You are only looking for cards that say "draw" but I tell you, look for cards that gain card advantage... Balance, Jushi, Ancestral, Isochron, Moat... Old rule of magic man, what you desire is CARD ADVANTAGE not just card draw. Drawing cards is ONE way to achieve that.

Thanks for the lesson Mr. Weissman. Card draw is neccesary to keep a chain of theats and answers coming. Your deck has only a few threats and next to no draw, making it very difficult to keep the pressure on. Going by our very own Josh Silvestri's count of Fish, that deck runs 7-13 more creatures than you, and has a chunk more draw, yet still fails to put pressure on against some decks. How can you expect yours to do the same?

Lord of Atlantis: He almost got cut several times, but his two abilities just won too many games. Islandwalk in Type 1 is powerfull, anybody who plays River Boa knows that. Pumping up your Thiefs is powerfull, they are all cheap creatures and can end the game in only a few turns when unstopped. Just 1 Lord and 1 Theif means 5 turns for my opponent to live, and they can come out pretty fast.

Island walk is so irrelevant in Type I right now it's hilarious. Look at the most recent top 8s. Outside of sneaking your fish past Oath's Akroma, it's not going to count for anything, and by the time Oath's done it's thing, you're toast.

Moat: Ah, how easily players look past this card these days. Moat is powerfull, it SHUTS DOWN so many decks. Sundering Titan, Goblin Welder, Psychatogg, Mishra's Factory, Juggernaut, Most Goblins, Pentavus(not Pentavites), River Boa, etc. etc. etc.

Moat does not shut down goblin welder. AT ALL. Deck running Tog run several wishes and will answer Moat when they get around to it. Titan will have done it's thing by merely being in play. It may shut Goblins down, but good luck finding it, and enough mana to cast it by turn 3 or so. Past that you're likely already dead. Even then they can still Sharpshooter you out, so it's hardly an autowin.

My general reply to all statements made so far: You need to try the deck before you make these claims.

No, we don't. If people had to try every single deck before saying anything about it these forums would be silent. Show Ancestral Recall to a Magic player who's never played Vintage. He's possibly seen Concentrate before, and so by comparison he can see that the card is really, really good. In the same way, people who have ever played with, or against decks like fish can make some observations about your deck. Sure we've never used it ourselves, but we've played with similar, and can probably pick out problems from past experience.

[Toad]

My general reply to all statements made so far:  You need to try the deck before you make these claims.

You are severely misunderstanding the purpose of these forums. Most of the TheManaDrain readers don't have time to playtest as much as they want, so you can't expect people to actually test YOUR decks. If you want them to try your deck, you have to make them feel like doing so. If you posted stuff there for feedback, accept feedback as It comes.

Since you seem unable to keep up with this feedback, I'm moving this thread to the Newbie Forum.

Moved

[Moxlotus]

Timetwister:  I have already won several games based on the mainboard inclusion of this spell.  Type 1 is all about graveyard these days, and removing the graveyard plus refilling your hand has nearly every time been more valuable then giving my opponent 7 cards.  Most of the time when I twist, I have a couple of mana drains etc. on Isochron scepters, Jushi IS FLIPPED and I can outdraw/counter my opponent for the win.

Most of the time, no matter what you do you win when you have a couple of Drains on Scepter.

Null Rod: The deck packs 8 counters it has to get past, and it packs 2 disenchants main board.  Beyond that you don't need the Isochrons or your artifacts to win, they just help.  Null Rod hurts yeah, like any nearly any deck in Type 1.  But it does NOT shut down this deck.

So when fish has as many counters as you, and more of them pitch counters, you expect to be able to counter their turn 2 Rod?

Card Draw:  Why do you need card draw?  To keep your hand full and get to your key cards.  Largely for card advantage.  The same thing is reaped by using one card to destroy multiple cards of the opponent, like what Isochron Scepter allows.  You are only looking for cards that say "draw" but I tell you, look for cards that gain card advantage...  Balance, Jushi, Ancestral, Isochron, Moat...  Old rule of magic man, what you desire is CARD ADVANTAGE not just card draw.  Drawing cards is ONE way to achieve that.

Thanks , we haven't known that since 1995.  But when you are getting outdrawn against a deck with as many hard counters as you, they will find them faster and beat you.

How do you beat Oath:  Rootwater Theif, he's a monster against Oath.  Comes out turn 1, and by turn 3 their win conditions are removed from game.  Swords to Plowshares removes Oaths win conditions after getting them into play.  Disenchant blows up Oath of Druids before it can activate.

So, you cast Thief turn 1.  They cast oath turn 1...how do you not get your ass stomped into the ground by an pissed off Akroma or SotN?  And that is with you going first!!!  They have more counterspells than you and Duress and more card draw to stop your counters and stuff if they can't get an Oath on the table turn 1.  If they go first, and they don't just lay oath, they will have Mana Leak and FoW IF you can manage a turn 1 Thief.  Thief-Leak-you Fow-Fow back=opponent owns you.

Lord of Atlantis: He almost got cut several times, but his two abilities just won too many games.  Islandwalk in Type 1 is powerfull, anybody who plays River Boa knows that.  Pumping up your Thiefs is powerfull, they are all cheap creatures and can end the game in only a few turns when unstopped.  Just 1 Lord and 1 Theif means 5 turns for my opponent to live, and they can come out pretty fast.  Again, I too was doubtfull of the Lord of Atlantis but he has just been a winning factor in too many games.

OMG-your Goblin Welders can't block my Merfolk, guess they are useles...also a 5 turn clock is laughable in Type 1

Moat:  Ah, how easily players look past this card these days.  Moat is powerfull, it SHUTS DOWN so many decks.  Sundering Titan, Goblin Welder, Psychatogg, Mishra's Factory, Juggernaut, Most Goblins, Pentavus(not Pentavites), River Boa, etc. etc. etc.  Some decks are stopped dead in the water by Moat (pun intended), some just give up huge card advantage because half their creatures are no longer threats.

How does Moat stop Welder?  How does it stop Titan?  You can't attack with Titan, but Welder kills 2 lands of yours per turn.  A few turns of that and you have no mana and even without attacking-your opponent is in control until they find a Pentavus or Angel.  People still play Juggernaut?  5/3 is dead and has been.  Against Psychatog, which has as many counters as you+duress+infinite card draw, Moat reads; "Target opponent may cast Intuition, AK=3, AK=4 for UUU during his next mainphase."  How are you expecting to resolve a 4 mana enchantment against Tog?  How do you plan on surviving long enough to get 4 mana to cast it against goblins...and not have then Siege Ganged at you?

Again, let me state that I have BEEN BEATINGthose decks mentioned with Sushi.  Proof is in the puddin, so try the deck before you make blanket statements.

Also don't forget, not all decks need all answers.  Control Slaver has no direct artifact/enchantment destruction.  You do it through other methods, counter them in the first place, Mindslaver them and use their answers on their own cards, use the Welder to exchange your opponents artifacts to trip them up.  Don't forget, you can get around having certain cards in this game by other methods.

But those decks have card draw to find them their answers.  You don't have Welder to make your deck synergistic.  What you have are antisynergistic cards like 2 mana guys with Mana Drain.

Please learn how to properly use the quote tags. Next time I won't fix everything for you.
-Jacob

[Eandori]

Since you seem unable to keep up with this feedback, I'm moving this thread to the Newbie Forum.

Well I suppose I did misunderstand the purpose of the forum.  I was posting the deck just to get more type 1 deck variety out there.  Feedback is fine and I knew I would get it, I'm really not sure what you mean by "unable to keep up with this feedback"  Frankly I think that was not called for, but your the moderator.

Guess what? Lots of things seem great when you've got a few Mana Drains on Isochron scepters, and a pair of Flipped Jushis. Outside of situations when you've clearly already won, Timetwister is going to be a 3 mana Tormod's Crypt that will cost you games. Combo will go apeshit on you with 7 new cards. Shop decks drop their shiney new lock pieces you just drew them, and even scrubby red decks will try and burn you out. You'll be left doing somethng like Jushi + pass turn.

Before I say any more, first let me say I do appreciate you taking the time to reply.  Even if your tone is getting a little condescending.

Some of you state I don't have enough counter power in the deck, then you turn right around and state "Lots of things seem great when you've got a few Mana Drains on Isochron scepters" so which is it?  That's one of the whole points of the deck.  The scepters give you more of whatever it is you needed.

The game was NOT won by the time the Twist was fired off, what happens in tight battles is that Sushi uses everything it has to get solid spells on the Scepters, set up a good mana base and some card drawing ability.  At that point normally the match up is pretty even, a twist kinda resets the game, but Sushi out races the other deck after the twist.

Maybe it's just me, but I have trouble believing a deck that runs 3 spells capable of increasing your hand size can consistently hit 9 cards in hand. Add in the fact that both Force and the Scepters 2 for 1 you by default, and I see a deck that struggles to have 7 cards in hand, let alone 9.

First off, there are 9 cards that can increase hand size.  Jushix2, Brainstorm+Isochronx4, Recallx1, Timetwisterx1, LibraryOfAx1

Second, You can increase hand size by drawing cards, or by just not needing to cast spells and drawing your 1 per turn and using what you have in play.  If what you have in play is enough of a threat, you can hold your cards in hand.

How are you expecting to resolve a 4 mana enchantment against Tog?

Same way I did it last time I beat Tog...  Bleed his hand by casting threats and counter wars, then get a Rootwater into play asap.  Rootwater removes Togs, and I won.

How do you plan on surviving long enough to get 4 mana to cast it against goblins...and not have then Siege Ganged at you?

Counters, Swords, Some creature blockers, can easily hold off Goblins until Moat hits the table.  Moat can hit the table in turn 1 or 2 in Type 1, granted it won't often, but it does.

Going by our very own Josh Silvestri's count of Fish, that deck runs 7-13 more creatures than you, and has a chunk more draw, yet still fails to put pressure on against some decks. How can you expect yours to do the same?

I would not compare my deck like that to Fish.  They are different decks and go for different strategies.

OMG-your Goblin Welders can't block my Merfolk, guess they are useles...also a 5 turn clock is laughable in Type 1

What's Oath typically?  A 4 turn clock, maybe 3 if you hurt yourself.

Slaver?  Maybe 3 turn if they get out the Titan.  Other then that, Angel is 5 turn clock, Pentavus could be 4, might be more, might be less depending on how you have to sac it etc.  Tog can kill in 1 attack, but how long to set it up?  Fish?  What is that clock?

Seems to me it pretty much compares with the rest of the Field.  That's  what my games have shown me too.

I'm curious how criticism like this would fair against the deck you are playing now.  Again, I appreciate the time spent for replies.  Perhaps a bit more tact would be nice.

[Moxlotus]

1. Oath is a turn 3 clock with only one card.  You have to rely on 2 cards to get a 5 turn clock.

2. You don't have enough power in the deck to consistantly make broken plays while the situation you initially gave of having multiple Scepters with Drains is extremely situational.  

3. How are you going to bleed Tog's countermagic when he is drawing tons more cards than you are and has more counterspells?  If you tap out for a Thief early game and somehow it resolves, Tog can then C-Wish for REB and kill it.  Also, it only takes 1 Tog to kill you so you have to rely on attacking for 3 turns and the Tog player not doing anything of consequence.

4. If you are relying on getting Moat into play on turn 1 or 2 you are delusional.

5. Pretty much all decks that look like they have glaring weaknesses go through this on TMD.  Many are improved, many are scrapped because people covet pet decks too much.  Probably 80% of new deck ideas suck ass and don't work out-I know lots of mine don't.  What we are doing is trying to weed out the suck from the good on these boards.  I'm not saying the deck sucks, I'm saying that there appears to be glaring weaknesses in strategy and why this deck is better than any other control deck in the first place.

6. Sorry Jacob for not using quote tags properly . It won't happen again.

[crazynlazy]

edit: oops I didn't notice somone had already posted this

[Hi-Val]

I decided to playtest ten games with this deck against Hulk 2K5. Here's the Q n' D report, with players alternating who goes first. Hulk plays first on the odd-numbered games and Sushi on the evens.

G1: Both players paris. Hulk Duresses out Isochron and then twists both drains out of Sushi's hand. Sushi drops Lord and Hulk DAs and flashes back. Tog comes out and goes crazy for the win.

G2: Sushi parises back Disenchant, Tolarian, Balance, Wasteland, lots of mana and no artifacts. Keeps hand with Ancestral and resolves it. Hulk is swung down to 4 until it drops Tog and stabilizes. A weenie rush plus Time Walk kills Hulk.

G3: Hulk gets an early lead with Crypt and AK for 4 and DA. Cunning Wishes to stop a Swords on a stick. Hulk berserks over.

G4: Sushi drops a scepter with Brainstorm on it. Hulk casts Yawgmoth's Will.

G5: Sushi gets Brainstorm on a scepter, but Hulk wins.

G6:Sushi opens with LOA. It resolves Isochron with Mana Drain on it. Sushi has two active Thieves but Hulk has a Tog on the table. Hulk still swings for the win though.

G7: Sushi strips an Underground and it's a topdeck war. It gets two Lord of Atlantises out and then both are Explosived away. A stick with Swords comes down but is Naturalized. Hulk casts Will for the win.

G8: Thieves remove Will and 2 Cunning Wishes, but the third Wish aces the Moat on the board. Tog draws lots of cards and wins.

G9: Sushi doesn't do much, Hulk casts Intuition, AK 3, then gets balanced for 6 cards. It draws into AK 4, Ancestral and Tog. It wins.

G10: Hulk Time Walks, casts Twist for 3. Hulk resolves Tog, AK 3, AK 4. It wins.


-----

In ten games, only one was a loss for Hulk. I never saw the power of Sushi because I don't think it has any. It tries to be Keeper and Fish at the same time and fails at both. If I were to sit down against it at a tournament, I would be confident in my ability to win against it.

[Eandori]

Thanks for running some tests Hi-Val.  A few questions for you.

Why did you remove wishes etc. with the Thiefs?  If you remove the Togg[/s]s how does Togg[/s] win?

Were you just casting everything as it came out, or playing defensively?  It does make a big difference.  I normally try to slap something on the table in turn 1 or 2 if I think I can get it out without a counter.  Other then that, against a control deck I might play defensively or offensively depending on my hand.

Why always brainstorms on the scepter?  Swords could be far more devastating against Togg[/s].  

Did you ever draw Ancestral and hold it for a scepter?

I'm not 100% confident you played the deck the same way I would.  But thanks for doing some testing anyways.

'Tog' has only one G. -Matt[/color]

[Necrologia]

Before I say any more, first let me say I do appreciate you taking the time to reply. Even if your tone is getting a little condescending.

You're right, and I apologize for it. My intention wasn't to insult you, but upon re-reading of my own post the tone is a little harsher than I would have intended.

Some of you state I don't have enough counter power in the deck, then you turn right around and state "Lots of things seem great when you've got a few Mana Drains on Isochron scepters" so which is it? That's one of the whole points of the deck. The scepters give you more of whatever it is you needed.

These are seperate points. The number of counters doesn't matter, the point I was trying to make is that any card can be made to be awesome when you have multiple Mana Drains on scepters, and have actually flipped Jushi. An example:

Most of the time when I beat for the win with Mountain Goat/Berserk Murlodant/Noble Panther, I have a couple of mana drains etc. on Isochron scepters, Jushi IS FLIPPED and I can outdraw/counter my opponent for the win.

The game was NOT won by the time the Twist was fired off, what happens in tight battles is that Sushi uses everything it has to get solid spells on the Scepters, set up a good mana base and some card drawing ability. At that point normally the match up is pretty even, a twist kinda resets the game, but Sushi out races the other deck after the twist.

See that's the thing, it's extremely difficult to get one, let alone multiple scepters set up against the best decks in the field. To say you've already gotten them on the table indicates that you've outdrawn them, then systematically run them out of counters and answers. By the time that's happened, the match is already over. You didn't need to cast Timetwister there, the game would have ended the same if you had simply relied on your scepters to counter whatever your opponent draws, while you eventually find some beaters.

First off, there are 9 cards that can increase hand size. Jushix2, Brainstorm+Isochronx4, Recallx1, Timetwisterx1, LibraryOfAx1

Timetwister isn't going to get you to 9 cards, and the Isochrons will only break even after 2 turns. It'll take you 3 before you've actually drawn a card and gotten ahead in cards. It's also a very juicy removal target, as randomly 2 for 1ing off wish is a very solid play for any deck that can pull it off.

Second, You can increase hand size by drawing cards, or by just not needing to cast spells and drawing your 1 per turn and using what you have in play. If what you have in play is enough of a threat, you can hold your cards in hand.

Sure, but I can't think of a single deck off the top of my head where a pair of 2/2s is threatening enough. No competent player is going to sit there and let you draw up to 9 anyway if you have a Jushi on the board. All they have to do is make you Force of Will one thing and you're set back 2 turns. Oftentimes that can be enough for the other deck to set itself up for the win.

How are you expecting to resolve a 4 mana enchantment against Tog?

Same way I did it last time I beat Tog... Bleed his hand by casting threats and counter wars, then get a Rootwater into play asap. Rootwater removes Togs, and I won.

Tog has more counters and more draw than you. If you attempt to drop moat the most likely thing that will happen is that it's drained for it's juicy 4 mana casting cost. Even if you manage to force it though, Tog is only marginally slowed. Tog often has to get a wish to win, in order to Berserk past blockers. Moat simply forces the Tog player to use the wish on naturalize or something instead. Course by the time a tog player is likely to win he's drawn so many cards that having a pair of wishes in hand isn't that unlikely.

I would not compare my deck like that to Fish. They are different decks and go for different strategies.

Then what would you compare it to? Your deck packs a few counters and some small beaters. The strategy seems to be drop some small men and protect them while they go the distance. If you're not playing it like this, then I'm a little confused.

If, for instance, you intend to play very controlish by only dropping a threat when you've already won, why not just drop the 7 critters for 2 good Morphling-esque ones and a handful of draw spells?

What's Oath typically? A 4 turn clock, maybe 3 if you hurt yourself.

Traditional Meandeck Oath deals 6 pts of damage the turn after they drop Oath, and another 12 every turn after. Potentially 18 points of damage by turn 3 is plenty fast.

Slaver? Maybe 3 turn if they get out the Titan. Other then that, Angel is 5 turn clock, Pentavus could be 4, might be more, might be less depending on how you have to sac it etc. Tog can kill in 1 attack, but how long to set it up? Fish? What is that clock?

Thanks to the Tinker plan Slaver can have one of their huge beaters out by turn 1 or 2. Similar to Oath, once the beater's already in play, it's too late for your deck to do much about it. Other than that it can slave you once for effectively a 1 turn win condition. Honestly, after you've put back your best cards with Brainstorm, shuffled them away with a fetch failing to find a land, and then forced your own critter, realistically what chance do you have of winning?

I'm curious how criticism like this would fair against the deck you are playing now. Again, I appreciate the time spent for replies. Perhaps a bit more tact would be nice.

Personally I switch between playing Mean Death and Doomsday. I've recieved flak for playing decks that are terrible to play against, supposedly crap out on themselves 3 time out of 4 so I must have gotten lucky, and die to Ancestral. Being able to deal with criticism is a necessary life skill, and you seem to be handling it admirably. Once again though, I'd like to apologize for my earlier tone.

[Freelancer]

Why did you remove wishes etc. with the Thiefs? If you remove the Toggs how does Togg win?

There was a moat in play, so the only way for tog to win was wishing for a answer... (this leaves less options left)

Why always brainstorms on the scepter? Swords could be far more devastating against Tog.

This is one off the major misconceptions about playing against tog, they only need to protect the tog for 1 turn. (there is a decent chance they will go tog-walk-kill) This leaves you with 2 oppertunities to use scepter-swords but by that time this has probably alread happened:
1) You have been outdrawn
this correllates with 2) You will be outcountered
3) He will find a cunning wish for a answer (again correlates with point 1)
4) Your sitting on a useless scepter (they won't play tog untill they want to win) while your opponent does all off the above and in the end you lose.

If you want to beat tog you need to either:
1) Screw with there graveyard, this leaves them with a very small tog.
You have 1 card that does that but they have more counters than you do wich means there's a decent shot it will be countered/duressed if its your only answer.
2) Stop theretheir[/color] card draw. This leaves them with few counters, few cards, and a small graveyard.

You do neither with imprinting swords. If you however imprint a brainstorm it results in you digging for counters to stop your opponents card draw the best you can while beating down. It also means that you find more off everything you need (more card draw, swords, moat, scepters).

I'm not 100% confident you played the deck the same way I would. But thanks for doing some testing anyways.

And I am quite confident that Hi-Val has more experience against tog than you do...

[crazynlazy]

I don't think he was talking about tog I think He was talking about his deck, sushi. I would also agree with Hi-Val that sushi tries to be keeper and fish (two decks that aren't any good any more) and doesn't pull off either of them resulting in a dangerously terrible deck.

[warble]

To add to this what everybody is thinking:

Make your Sushi into Sashimi!

Mono-blue is extraordinarily powerful, you can put fire/ice on isochrons and use the ice for your isochron lockdown almost as effectively as you can swords (unless there are multiple togs, he can't attack, colossus is locked down for 2 mana, welders/utility creatures get burned, etc.)  Your merfolk are a fantastic creature base once your mana is fixed to be all blue, you won't face wasteland at all, hmm...basically I see no reason for you to be running white in this deck at all(aside from meddling mage which can be equivocated to another counterspell).  Keeper ran white because of the necessity for it to have "all the answers" as well as Decree(uncounterable) but nobody wants that anymore unless they run INSANE draw power.  What we are mainly concerned with at this point is speed and consistency, and having blue to pitch to force consistently as well as a fixed turn-2 Lord of Atlantis is going to add a lot more then having some swords and balance.

When the comment is made, "you tried to do 2 things at once" I don't know if this applies more to your multi-color aggro or your misuse of the base colors you are beginning with.  The least you should do is test a mono-blue version of your deck (Placebo decklist is posted) and see how much stronger it is to have measley draw power and counters then the cards you have chosen for this deck.  Who wants to run sub-optimal blue and sub-optimal white (Decree = reason to run white the same way Yawgmoth's Will = reason to run black) when you can run even white weenie and achieve the results you are looking for, and blue weenie is likely even stronger?  If you have to make a fish deck, and it can't run red, then blue weenies should be your forte because of your experience, and you WILL like insight better then an isochron...trust me...it's always better to have the card you want then an isochron scepter (Keeper excepted).

[Eandori]

Thanks for the great replies guys, I really like the way this post is going now.

I tried a "Sashimi" version of this deck.  It was powerfull, it only ran into problems by not having many ways to deal with threats on the board.  I ended up needing forms of bounce to substitute for artifact/creature/enchantment removal.  I ended up trying Boomerang on Isochron, Man O' War, Capsize, Tradewind Rider.  My favorite version of mono blue had more merfolk and the Tradewind Rider.  It was a strong blue vintage creature deck, but it just did not have the card advantage needed, or counter power.

After all my attempts at mono blue, I ended up splashing white.  And the deck just got better.

Not faster, just more versatile.  Playing Sushi in comparison to versions of Sashimi is slower kills, and I seem to "wiggle" out of tight spots really often.  The white allows me let something go through my counter power, saving those for bigger fish and then remove it on the board later.  The advantage is, when players get something past your counterspells, they often figure you have none.  That HUGELY plays to my advantage because I'll save my counters as long as I can normally.

Against Tog at my last tournament.  Game 1 he won, game 2 I won, game 3 we had to draw to time, but he had no win conditions left.  Thief removed them all.  The Tormod's crypt in my sideboard gave me a lot of pressure to place on him, along with the extra plows.  Yes, I realize many type 1 decks pack more counter power then Sushi does, but it IS POSSIBLE to pressure them enough to counter smaller threats so you can drop something really good on the table.  It's pretty much how I beat decks like that.

I see your point that getting more answers with brainstorm+scepter helps, but again, how does Tog win if they are all removed from the game?

[crazynlazy]

it is hard to resolve a card that hoses their deck when they play more counters than you. Also you usually won't have enough time to remove all of their togs before they resolve one but unless it is GAT you are playing against they usually can't win.

[Hi-Val]

I played Fish competitively from December to June last year, and after that, I played Hulk for the rest of the summer. I've got quite a bit of theoretical and tournament experience with both : )

Regarding the way I played both decks: Sushi was played in the way that Fish does-- play out a threat and disrupt until you can get it to go the distance. I played the deck fast against Hulk because that's the only thing that you CAN do. If they drop Tog, your attacks are stunted. If you sit back on counters and hope to stop what they're doing, good luck. Their draw, counters and creatures are far better than yours. You have to go all-in with Fish, which is why I really questioned Balance in this deck. I'd never ever want to cast it.

I removed the Wishes because of the Moat. The Thief Removal Order is usually Yawgmoth's Will, Psychatog, Cunning Wish, Draw. Keep in mind that if you take out the Togs, they can still Wish in an Artifact Mutation and ruin a scepter. Rootwater also doesn't deal with Psychatogs in hand. Basically in all the games, I just had to survive long enough to drop Tog and then Berserk or draw for the win. I never felt like Sushi had any control over the game.

A final note is that your draw engine costs 2U, and not Free, like Curiosity. That means that the counters in your deck are even less useful because they have to jockey with casting more draw. The true power of Fish was that its synergy was a powerful weapon in its own and could make up for all but the most broken plays that other decks could do. This deck has far, far less synergy.

[Eandori]

Great comments Hi Val.  Makes a lot of sense.  I see what you mean about Jushi compared to Standstill, but I wanted more draw in the deck, with more creatures that could beat down if I needed them to.  I could try running no Jushi, no twist, no balance, and more draw.  But I'm not sure if the deck would work like that.  Balance IS a game winner, just not in the situation you described.  It's just one of those cards that either wins the game for me, or just gets discarded, I feel the same way about Moat.

If Tog was out on one side, Sushi had out a Lord and a Rootwater, don't forget the Rootwater can still get through(islandwalk), so it's not a lock while both sides try to build up.  That was one of the points to the build.

So, any suggestions on what might help it?

[cardiffgiant]

My solution for draw: Skullclamp and a few more creatures. Clamp is amazing.

[Necrologia]

In a deck not designed to abuse it, I'd rather have Curiosity than Skullclamp. Curiosity gives you constant card draw. Skullclamp would require a complete overhaul of the creature base, as otherwise you'll just be drawing a pair of cards at random intervals.

[cardiffgiant]

I think curiosity is at least as bad. He doesn't have enough creatures for that either and the creatures aren't evasive enough. It also becomes a 2 for 1.

I personally don't like Rootwater thief. It's only good against combo if you already have control (otherwise you're using up the mana you need for reacting/countering). And it's awful against control or aggro. I think any of the following are better: Extract, Meddling Mage, Spiketail Hatchling, Abeyance, Orim's Chant.

Assuming Jushi is non-negotiable and essential, I would probably go Ophidian or Thieving Magpies or the card draw Ninja to get him online faster. I think we're already assuming a successful Mana Drain to get the deck going.