[Discussion] Should Intuition be restricted?

[cardiffgiant]

Moderators: Feel free to move this to Newbie if you feel it merits.

From numerous past posts, there are vastly different views about restricting or unrestricting cards in Type 1. It seems, for the most part, TMD is hesitant to have any card restricted.

Setting aside the near religious opinions for a moment and instead looking at past restrictions, I would like to pose the question: Why isn't Intuition restricted? There are some reasons to justify it.

In the past, the DCI has repeated restricted low cost tutors. By low cost I am not merely counting casting cost, but other costs associated with playing the card (life loss, card loss, etc). Given that Intuition will give you a copy, at instead speed, of any non-restricted card in your deck, it seems to fit into this category.

In the past, the DCI has also restricted low cost card draw. One could debate that the Intuition/AK engine is low cost (I personally think it's absurd, but I'm not a control player), but it's cost can be distributed between two turns and draws at least 3 cards.

The third major categories of restrictions are mana accelerators. I don't know of any decks that uses Intuition for mana acceleration, although it is used for cheating the mana curve (putting cards in the graveyard for welding or reanimation).

The major reason that I see for it not to be restricted is that it hasn't yet been the integral part of some meta-game distorting deck. It is interesting that most control decks play it, along with many combo decks. Does any deck with Mana Drain not play it?

Am I missing something or is this card a sacred cow like Mana Drain and possibly Dark Ritual?

[Dante]

I don't think it's good enough to be restricted.  It's a 3cc instant that only guarantees a NON-restricted that you still have 3 of in your library.  It's strong, but nowhere near Mana Drain, Dark Ritual level.

As for the Intuition/AK, If they printed a card that said UU3, draw 3 cards, would anyone care?  Yes, intuition/AK can be paid for over two turns, but it's merely an excellent card draw engine, not broken like Ancestral.

[Hi-Val]

Well I wouldn't be so far as to say that it only gets you good unrestricted bombs. I've Intuitioned for Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Ancestral Recall before and that's a pretty brutal setup. But Dante is right; it's 3 mana for something that requires an additional mana investment. Merchant Scroll isn't restricted because it can grab Ancestral, because that's too slow. However, FOF is 4 mana and it's restricted, so that opens up other things.

I think that if Intuition is TRULY broken in Mana Drain Combo (and it's getting there with Recoup/Will decks) then it could be restricted, but I don't see it being that close at all right now.

[VGB]

If they printed a card that said UU3, draw 3 cards, would anyone care?

It's better than Stroke and Braingeyser, so yes, I think people would care.  It'd make a pretty good T4 card 

Then again, it would be to Concentrate what Stroke is to Braingeyser, and no one plays either of the latter.

[Rico Suave]

Intuition is fairly costed for what it does.  

Intuition-AK is UU3 to draw 3.

Intuition-DA, DA, card X is UUU4 to draw 4.

Intuition-Will, Recoup, card X is URB5, or URB7 if they don't give you Recoup.

I don't feel that any of those plays are environment distorting.  It is a solid card, but slow enough that practically any decent deck can keep up.  Of course Intuition can also find other things like artifacts to weld in, but that is not a sign that Intuition is good.  

[cardiffgiant]

Thanks for the responses.

I guess the simplest way to view it is that it's part of many 2 card combos (Mana Drain, AK, Oath, Cunning Wish, 3 restricted cards, etc) none of which immediately win the game. The only card that might push the scales in favor or restriction is Boseiju.

It makes me think someone should design Intuition.dec  

[Rico Suave]

The only card that might push the scales in favor or restriction is Boseiju.

I don't get this statement. 

You're telling me that in T1, you are completely unable to deal with a Legendary non-basic land that comes into play tapped?  What would the combination of Intuition+Boseiju produce that makes life so difficult that the only solution would be restriction?

[crazynlazy]

I think that mana drain or some other card will be restricted before intuition and if mana drain is, intuition will be too slow and will act kind of restricted, also intuition doesn't show up much where mana drain isn't legal.

[cardiffgiant]

The reason I think Boseiju is the only card that could currently push Intuition to the point of restriction is that you can setup, without worrying about being countered, something devastating on your opponents turn, and cast it, without worrying about being countered, on your turn. That makes Intuition a LOT more powerful.

However I haven't seen anything that could really exploit that yet. It would have to be a pretty powerful non-restricted sorcery or instant, though. Probably a graveyard deck like reanimator, Welder (using Trash for Treasure), or Replenish.

[Bob The Builder]

Restricting Intuition is not going to happen now (if it does happen, I'll eat my helmet).
OK a LOT of decks run 3-4 copies of the spell, but restricting the card doesn't destroy the (current) decks that run it.  It slows them down at the most.

Untill someone really abuses Intuition, I don't believe it 'll end up on the restricted list.

[TracerBullet]

The only real abuses of Intuition come when the deck is abusing the cards that get put into the grave in addiiton to the cards that go to the hand, Goblin Welder being the biggest offender.  With this in mind, I can see Intuition becoming a major threat in the future if broken recursive cards continue to be printed, but as of current, the real damage dealer with Intuition is Goblind Welder, not the Intuition.

[Klep]

A trend I've noticed is that as the format has grown, the community as a whole has become much better at finding and breaking cards.    Where it took us (and by "us" I mean JP) a year to figure out how to abuse Psychatog, someone broke Mindslaver within months, Orchard immediately found a home in Oath, and with Trinisphere's departure freeing up basic land slots, we're starting to figure out that Boseiju is really good.

Similarly, use of Intuition has picked up greatly as we've figured out how good it is.  It's first use was in Hulk, but it wasn't until the predecessor of Goth Slaver used it in a German tournament back last June that it found a different home.  Now that Goth Slaver has become popularized and Intuition's potential in other decks is starting to be evaluated, it's quickly picking up steam with inclusion in most notably Brass Man's SSB.  Thus, while it cerainly doesn't merit restriction now, I feel that it has nowhere to go but up in this format, and a close eye should be kept on its use and the degree to which it saturates the metagame in the future.  Do I think that it will become restricted at any point in the future? Not really, but it wouldn't surprise me if such a time came to pass.

[Machinus]

I think that Intuition is definitely one of the more likely candidates for restriction in Vintage. I don't think it is going to be restricted, but it is definitely one of the most versatile and powerful unrestricted cards. Its usefulness has been known for some time and I don't think that it is only recently that deckbuilders have considered using it. Hulk is certainly a classic example, but if you look at the development of other decks, it is other cards that have supported the power of Intuition. Oath wasn't a viable deck until the last 6 months, when orchard became legal. Control Slaver has dominated and will continue to dominate the format, while choosing not to run Intiution since it does not need it. U/R stax has been around for some time now, and the development of its draw engine has included intuition before the drain decks began to abuse it. So I don't think it is fair to say that Intuition was only broken "recently." It definitely wasn't. It might not even be broken yet. But it is still a card I assume the DCI is watching.

[cardiffgiant]

Well, thank you all for the open-minded discussion. I was a little disappointed this was moved to the misc forum.

I liked Recoup/Yawgwill selection that HiVal mentioned. That approach never crossed my mind. A heckuva lot better than my Myr Servitor idea

I also didn't know Stax was one of the first decks to effectively use it. From what I remember of Stax pre-Mirrodin it makes sense. It can either get draw via AK or multiples of Welder, Smokestack or Tanglewire. Was that the correct time period?

For me, it feels like in the right deck it should have to power that Cunning Wish has in Tog. It would also seem like the right deck would be an hybrid deck or one with a transformational sideboard. Along the lines of Cerebral Assassin. A simple engine that can quickly drop to the graveyard various partial combos with Intuition getting the final piece or providing disruption.

Please excuse my ignorance but why did FoF get restricted but Intuition remains unscathed? Although different, they seem on the same power level.

[Machinus]

While both cards force your opponent to decide which cards go in your hand and which go in your graveyard, Intuition and FoF perform much different roles. Intuition functions to fill the graveyard with broken cards for recursion, or as a tutor for an unrestricted card. In either case, you are spending 3 mana and 1 card for 1 card. With FoF, you spend 4 mana, at instant speed, to get 2, 3, or sometimes 4 cards. This was overpowering for monoblue decks running 4x FoF, since they could afford to counter everything and just make up the difference with FoF later. FoF is a card which is universally abusable, whereas Intuition does take more deckbuilding and synergy to make it good. There are many cards which make Intuition much better, namely welder, so in the Vintage environment, Intuition is comparable in power to FoF.

[racetraitor]

Let's also not forget that it's always been a staple in Dragon, where it truly shows it's versatility as combo-setup (getting dragons/kill card), draw (getting Bazaars/Squees/DA's) and tutor (getting animates or duress/fow to protect them). The graveyard has become more and more valuable as a resource over the last years and most decks that plan on abusing it choose Intuion since is passes "the Vintage test"; it's blue, an instant and has a CC of 3 or less. It's basically been on steady rise since the Odyssey block with it's Flashback cards, and to a lesser extent Incarnations and Threshold. One of the first decks to use Intuition as a backbone before that was acutally pandeburst, setting us big Replenishes much like it sets up Yawgmoth's Wills in Slaver nowadays. Right now the focal point of abuse is Goblin Welder since Mirrodin gave us a whole slew of splashy artifacts to play with, and I wouldn't be surprised if future blocks introduced new ways of abusing Ituition to the point that it has to be restricted. Right now I agree with Machinus that it's watchlist material, but not broken.

[Outlaw]

A trend I've noticed is that as the format has grown, the community as a whole has become much better at finding and breaking cards.    Where it took us (and by "us" I mean JP) a year to figure out how to abuse Psychatog, someone broke Mindslaver within months, Orchard immediately found a home in Oath, and with Trinisphere's departure freeing up basic land slots, we're starting to figure out that Boseiju is really good.

Similarly, use of Intuition has picked up greatly as we've figured out how good it is.  It's first use was in Hulk, but it wasn't until the predecessor of Goth Slaver used it in a German tournament back last June that it found a different home.  Now that Goth Slaver has become popularized and Intuition's potential in other decks is starting to be evaluated, it's quickly picking up steam with inclusion in most notably Brass Man's SSB.  Thus, while it cerainly doesn't merit restriction now, I feel that it has nowhere to go but up in this format, and a close eye should be kept on its use and the degree to which it saturates the metagame in the future.  Do I think that it will become restricted at any point in the future? Not really, but it wouldn't surprise me if such a time came to pass.

Ahem... Shortbus Small Pox Blankets or SSB (two different decks)  doesnt at all use intuition, I have been playing the deck along side Brassman for quite some time now and to my recall we never included intuition.  The card we use is gifts ungiven, it allows the combo to be put together more easily.  Rich shay has been messing around with intuition in his slavery build without aks but with DAs instead. 

[Rico Suave]

Similarly, use of Intuition has picked up greatly as we've figured out how good it is.  It's first use was in Hulk, but it wasn't until the predecessor of Goth Slaver used it in a German tournament back last June that it found a different home. 

Just a small nitpick, but Intuition was used before Tog showed up.  Reap-Lace was a surprisingly solid control-combo deck before Gush started returning laced permanents. 

Anyway, FoF and Intuition do two different things.  FoF is a card drawer, whereas Intuition is a tutor.  For 3 mana it is possible to Intuition for a very specific set of cards, so that the aftermath is predictable.  FoF is not so predictable, but it has more raw power.  For 1 more mana, it puts 2 additional cards into hand.  In order for Intuition to draw though, an additional 2 mana must be given so that the overall investment in Intuition is more than would be invested in FoF to end up with the same number of cards in hand.  FoF can also put Will/Tinker to hand, whereas Intuition cannot barring the use of auxiliary cards like Recoup.  Intuition in multiples gets weaker with each casting, whereas FoF in multiples gets sick.  How do you split this pile during your end step:

FoF
Goblin Welder
Mana Drain
Mindslaver
Mystical Tutor

And just imagine if they had a 2nd FoF in hand before casting the first!  It's not too hard to see that a deck with 4 of these could easily see 15 cards over 2 turns, and not only does that find Will very quickly but it sets it up because FoF dumps a ton of crap into the grave. 

[Klep]

Ahem... Shortbus Small Pox Blankets or SSB (two different decks)  doesnt at all use intuition, I have been playing the deck along side Brassman for quite some time now and to my recall we never included intuition.  The card we use is gifts ungiven, it allows the combo to be put together more easily.  Rich shay has been messing around with intuition in his slavery build without aks but with DAs instead. 

My bad, Gifts, Intuition, who knows the difference

I guess my point really is that this kind of tutoring, of not caring whether the cards you get go to your hand or your graveyard, is very powerful and we're finally starting to wake up to that fact.

[onelovemachine]

I guess my point really is that this kind of tutoring, of not caring whether the cards you get go to your hand or your graveyard, is very powerful and we're finally starting to wake up to that fact.

I agree and the fact that intuition is that much better at doing it and costs less.....