Determining the best form of tendrils combo in Type 1

[Corvel]

After the restriction of Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish neutering Long.dec tendrils combo has appeared in many different forms.  However these is much dispute over which form of tendrils combo in now the best.  Shortly after the death of Long.dec the combo deck TPS popped up and then shortly after that Draw7 made an appearance.  Then awhile after this DeathLong became prevalent replacing Draw7 while TPS was still strong.  As of late Meandeck Tendrils has become one of the major tendrils decks promising to be the fastest and most consistant yet.

In this post I hope to look at the advantages and disadvantages of all four of these decks and try to determin with the help of the rest of the community what the best form of tendrils combo is in todays general type 1 metagame.

First Lets take a look at The Perfect Storm (TPS)

Here's a fairly standard list taken from Star City Game's Deck's To Beat in March of 2005.

David Besso
1st place, 2005-02-20 Genoa
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Night of Souls Betrayal
1 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Misdirection
1 Brainfreeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stifle

Now lets try to discern some of the pros and cops of playing TPS.

The Pros
-A more stable mana base than the other tendrils variants
-The deck fails to go off a lot less than the of the other tendrils variants
-The deck offers more disruption than Draw7 and Meandeck Tendrils

The Cons
-The deck is slower by approximately a turn than the other tendrils variants
-This lack of speed gives other deck more of a chance to try and disrupt you

Next lets take a look at Draw7, a tendrils variant that has now almost completely faded from existence due to the unpopularity of constantly reloading your opponent's hand and giving then more ways to stop you from combo-ing out.

Here's a list taken from one of Stephen Menendian posts on The Mana Drain.

Draw7
4 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Underground Sea
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarms
1 Time Walk
4 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Hidden Guerrillas
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lets take a look at the pros and cons of playing Draw7.

The Pros
-Draw7 is faster than TPS and a bit faster than DeathLong
-If you fail to go off with Draw7 you stand a better chance of doing it next turn than with the other tendrils variants

The Cons
-The deck will sometimes just get a poor draw off a draw seven and fail to go off
-A less stable mana base than TPS
-Draw7 offers less disruption than TPS and DeathLong
-You keep reloading your opponent's hand with more cards to try and stop you

Next lets take a look at DeathLong, a tendrils variant that was created after Draw7 died out.

Here's a list taken from Star City Game's Deck's To Beat in March of 2005.

Steve Menendian
6th place, 2004-08-20 Gen Con Friday Daytime
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Death Wish
1 Burning Wish
4 Duress
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
4 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Time Spiral
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Primitive Justice
1 Oxidize
1 Regrowth
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

Heres a look at some of the pros and cons of playing DeathLong.

The Pros
-DeathLong offers more disruption than Draw7 and Meandeck Tendrils
-DeathLong is faster than TPS and a tiny bit slower than Draw7 but its speed is still very good
-DeathLong can consistently cast Yawgmoth's Will

The Cons
-DeathLong plays a less stable mana base than TPS
-If you cast Death Wish and fail to go off, loosing half of your life total might give other decks a shot at victory on their next turn

Finally lets take a look at Meandeck Tendrils, the newest and fastest tendrils variant around.

Here's a list taken from Star City Game's Deck's To Beat in March of 2005.

Justin Walters
4th Place, 2005-01-15 Waterbury
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Night's Whisper
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Darkwater Egg
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Windsweapt Heath

Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Doomsday
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Hurkyls Recall

Lets examine the pros and cons of playing Meandeck Tendrils.

The Pros
-You get to play the fastest tendrils variant in type one

The Cons
-You play a less stable mana base than TPS
-Meandeck Tendrils runs less disruption than TPS and DeathLong
-Out of the tendrils variants this is the hardest one to play.

Now that we have taken a look at all the different tendrils combo, all of them seem to have their strong points and weak points.  There are convincing arguments as why to play any of them.  So what do you guys think, what is the best form of tendrils combo in todays general type 1 metagame.

-Corvel

[hellfire1134]

Im working on a new Tendrils list...I call it Variant 4 but it works with some tech, its not done yet.  But it has potenial.  Do you guys want a list?

[Corvel]

Yeah sure if you would like to post a list I would like to see it.

[That0neguy]

You forgot something about meandeck tendrils a con is that it dies to basically any permanent based hate.  However it can also race a lot of the hate.

Also Draw 7 just seemed bad although running fastbond was interesting Ive considered adding it to death long.

BTW spell check is awesome I just noticed it.

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

I think that Meandeath is the best Tendrils build out there.  It has a consistent turn 2, a nice amount of disruption and it can wish for answers.  It is faster than TPS and Dragon.  It has enough disruption to win the contol match.  The Tendrils decks that are faster than this one are a little unstable and TPS is a little too slow.    is the new .  Too bad October is so far away...

[Sublime]

The Tendrils decks that are faster than this one are a little unstable and TPS is a little too slow.

Just recently I have been goldfishing TPS a LOT! And I can say with out a doubt TPS is the best tendrils based combo dekc out there right now.  And... slower is mostly better in this case.  TPS can charge through disruption,  disrupt the oposing player, and it is just plain consistant.  I say this through countless hours of play testing and winning.  Also if you play them versus eachother TPS will mostly win.  Not to say that it is perfect in every way.  But it does consitantly beat the other tendils based decks.  Also TPS has no random "I lose" cards. *chough* Draw7 *chough*  That being said, if speed is the only thing you are concerned with Meandeck Tenrils would be perfect.

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

How do you beat other Tendrils decks with TPS?  Force of Will will slow you down as much as it slows them down (for the most part) and you can't race them.  It's true that TPS can punch through hate, so the choice between TPS and other Tendrils variants is really a metagame call.  I really don't think that TPS has a good match against fast combo

[Necrologia]

In my opinion Meandeath is the storm combo deck of choice right now.

Meandeck Tendrils has had plenty of opportunity to show the world it's amazing power but it simply failed to live up to expectations. Its certainly fast, but that's at the price of having no game against hate, and being next to impossible to play perfectly. This might be a better call now that Trinisphere's no longer a major threat, but don't forget that most of the meandeckers who tried the deck lost to hate other than Trinisphere. Arcane Lab is game over for the deck, and after a well timed force it's really hard to get the deck off the ground again without an above average hand.

Draw 7 was based on a theory that didn't pan out. Every deck with draw 7s runs the possibility of drawing 7 lands or similar non-hands while giving the opponent goodness. In a deck running as many draw 7s as humanly possible this (naturally) happens more often than in any other deck.The real killer though, is that UU for returns is extremely difficult to obtain early enough for it to matter. The reason to run combo is for it's speed, and when there are other decks just as fast that draw the opponent fewer cards the choice is pretty clear. If another way to obtain UU early is ever printed this deck will be in good shape, until then I'd play something else.

TPS had a great match up against Trinisphere packing decks thanks to a copious amount of basics and several maindeck Rebuilds. So much so, that Workshop decks were one of it's best matchups. Those decks are seeing less play right now, thanks to the loss of Trinisphere. The deck is still solid, but I'm not sure if it's worth playing now that one of it's best matchups has seemingly dissappeared.

Where TPS lost one of it's best matchups, Meandeath lost one of it's hardest. Trinisphere was something the deck hated to see, and paying half your life is significantly more dicey when there's a Juggy on the other side of the board. With that match up out of the way, the deck's in a much better position. It has a realistic chance of beating control before they can get UU up, and Wishes help make sure no game is ever an autoloss. This is also the only storm deck capable of running Xantid Swarms, a major plus. It suffers from a difficulty of play not unlike Meandeck Tendrils, but not as extreme. After all, ripping a Wheel off the top after stalling is significantly more useful than a Darkwater Egg.

A final deck that should count as storm based is Doomsday. Mind's Desire and Tendrils of Agony are the main win conditions after all. It packs even more disruption than TPS and a similar land base. It dies to all sorts of completely random cards that most people run not even as hate (Memory Jar, Ancestral Recall, etc.) but that is why the deck runs 8 Duresses after all.

@Sublime

I can say with out a doubt TPS is the best tendrils based combo Deck out there right now.  And... slower is mostly better in this case.

The reason to run combo is for it's speed. It therefore follows that you should run the fastest deck that doesn't implode on itself all the time. TPS may not kill itself off bad Spoils, but there's a reason people joke that TPS = That Play Stalled. Compare it to Meandeath. It's like -10 bombs +10 lands/disruption. Sometimes winning really is the best answer. Meandeck Tendrils has shown that pure speed isn't enough to win, but I believe a happy medium between SX and TPS is probably the answer.

Also if you play them versus eachother TPS will mostly win. Not to say that it is perfect in every way.  But it does consitantly beat the other tendrils based decks.

This is just wrong. TPS is slower than other combo, thus dies to other combo more often than the other way around. It's certainly close, but speed is just better than Force of Will most of the time. Check out Carl Winter's report here. Of note:

Game 2: I have a really slow draw once again, meaning I'm unable to capitalize on his mulligan to six. We both drop lands for a while, but I decide to drop an Elvish Spirit Guide backed up by a Xantid Swarm. He trumps me with Yawgmoth's Bargain. Everyone expects me to scoop, but I like people to be able to play with their toys, so I let him play it out. Jump ahead seventeen life and he's sitting on two life with a very big frown on his face. He drops out some artifact mana and plays Mind's Desire for ten. Again, everyone expects me to scoop, and again I let him play with his toys. He Desires up some lands and Force of Wills along with a Demonic Consultation and Vampiric Tutor. Screwed. He tries some more to find a draw spell and ends up getting as much mana as he possibly can also breaking his Lion's Eye Diamond before drawing his last card with Yawgmoth's Bargain. I mention that it would be kind of funny if he drew Windfall. He slow rolls it and comes up with... a land.

This is why LongDeath > TPS.

Did the TPS player get unlucky? Sure, but that kind of thing does happen with the deck.

Also TPS has no random "I lose" cards. *chough* Draw7 *chough*

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The only "I lose" cards most combo runs are Necropotence and Bargain. TPS runs these just like other storm decks.

[Mox Sapphire]

You fail to mention that meandeath does  NOT consistently win turn 2. Most often, it wins turn 3 or turn 4. It is more vulnerable to force of will. TPS not only overcomes these problems, but it wins consistently at roughly the same time as meandeath, give or take half a turn.

[Necrologia]

You fail to mention that meandeath does  NOT consistently win turn 2. Most often, it wins turn 3 or turn 4. It is more vulnerable to force of will. TPS not only overcomes these problems, but it wins consistently at roughly the same time as meandeath, give or take half a turn.

Meandeath goldfishes turn 2, TPS goldfishes turn 3. Add in disruption and you can push both decks back a turn. If anything, I'd say TPS is more vulnerable to Force than Meandeath as if it's key spell is countered it's less likely to topdeck another bomb. If nothing else Meandeath can beat FoW with it's SB'd Xantids, something TPS doesn't even have access to due to it's manabase.

TPS is a solid deck, I just don't think it's as good as Meandeath unless you play in a metagame full of shops.

[That0neguy]

TPS fizzles like crazy I've fizzled of a bargain starting at 20 life and I've also fizzled off a desire for 9 before storm decks shouldn't do that.

BTW can anyone post Steve's new grimlong decklist since decklists are allowed to be copied and pasted if I remember correctly from one of the mods.  I'm pretty sure that grim long is going to be better than deathlong since if you think about it you just need one maindeck bounce spell and you can still deal with every type of permanent that death wish would be able to deal with.

[Mox Sapphire]

B/R list will kill grimlong.

Moderators will kill worthless one-liners. Verbal warning for spam, and please read the rules.

-Jacob

[Necrologia]

BTW can anyone post Steve's new grimlong decklist since decklists are allowed to be copied and pasted if I remember correctly from one of the mods.

Actually the first words you read in the article are a note from Steve asking that the list not be Copy/pasted into forums. It's all part of Smmenen's diabolical plan to make you purchase SCG Premium. Personally I'm in favor of giving the list out but I won't go against an author's wishes. Seems like this might be an issue for the mods.

[Petey4335]

A couple of things:

1) After playing basically the David Besso version of TPS last weekend (-1 Chain of Vapor, -1 Library, +1 Time Spiral +1 Tendrils main), I noticed a little better than half the time, plan B - Tinker->Colossus won more games than Tendrils or Brain Freeze especially during game one. 

2) Two Cranial Extractions in the sideboard worked extremely well, especially in the Oath match. In the oath match, the 2nd game turn into turn 1: CE Oath with FoW backup followed by the oath player playing Arcane Lab next turn. Hardcasting Colossus did win the game though.

[Sublime]

In my opinion Meandeath is the storm combo deck of choice right now.

@Sublime

I can say with out a doubt TPS is the best tendrils based combo Deck out there right now.  And... slower is mostly better in this case.

The reason to run combo is for it's speed. It therefore follows that you should run the fastest deck that doesn't implode on itself all the time. TPS may not kill itself off bad Spoils, but there's a reason people joke that TPS = That Play Stalled. Compare it to Meandeath. It's like -10 bombs +10 lands/disruption. Sometimes winning really is the best answer. Meandeck Tendrils has shown that pure speed isn't enough to win, but I believe a happy medium between SX and TPS is probably the answer.

Yes speed is good but through my testing the duress and FOW's just give you the game.

Also if you play them versus eachother TPS will mostly win. Not to say that it is perfect in every way.  But it does consitantly beat the other tendrils based decks.

This is just wrong. TPS is slower than other combo, thus dies to other combo more often than the other way around. It's certainly close, but speed is just better than Force of Will most of the time. Check out Carl Winter's report here. Of note

Same as before the duress and FOW will just win you games

Game 2: I have a really slow draw once again, meaning I'm unable to capitalize on his mulligan to six. We both drop lands for a while, but I decide to drop an Elvish Spirit Guide backed up by a Xantid Swarm. He trumps me with Yawgmoth's Bargain. Everyone expects me to scoop, but I like people to be able to play with their toys, so I let him play it out. Jump ahead seventeen life and he's sitting on two life with a very big frown on his face. He drops out some artifact mana and plays Mind's Desire for ten. Again, everyone expects me to scoop, and again I let him play with his toys. He Desires up some lands and Force of Wills along with a Demonic Consultation and Vampiric Tutor. Screwed. He tries some more to find a draw spell and ends up getting as much mana as he possibly can also breaking his Lion's Eye Diamond before drawing his last card with Yawgmoth's Bargain. I mention that it would be kind of funny if he drew Windfall. He slow rolls it and comes up with... a land.

This is why LongDeath > TPS.

Did the TPS player get unlucky? Sure, but that kind of thing does happen with the deck.

Also TPS has no random "I lose" cards. *chough* Draw7 *chough*

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The only "I lose" cards most combo runs are Necropotence and Bargain. TPS runs these just like other storm decks.

All I'm saying is that giving your oponent a fresh hand of 7 is usualy never good, thus a "I lose"

[Necrologia]

Yes speed is good but through my testing the duress and FOW's just give you the game.

Then I question your testing partner's ability to play Death Long. No slight intended, as it takes fever to become proficient with the deck. Assuming both players are equally skilled, Deathlong is a slight favorite to win the TPS match. Both decks run Duress, but TPS's forces put it in the control seat. That means Deathlong spends it's time trying to win, TPS spends it's time trying to not lose. Obviously that's not a situation TPS wants to be in.

All I'm saying is that giving your oponent a fresh hand of 7 is usualy never good, thus a "I lose"

Usually when talking about "I lose" cards it's in the context of getting slavered. Once the opponent has control of your turn, there are certain cards that just cost you the game on the spot. Necro, Bargain, Psycatog that kind of thing. Draw 7s are most certainly not "I lose" cards, and even if they were TPS runs some itself.

[Nefarias]

Quote
All I'm saying is that giving your oponent a fresh hand of 7 is usualy never good, thus a "I lose"

Usually when talking about "I lose" cards it's in the context of getting slavered. Once the opponent has control of your turn, there are certain cards that just cost you the game on the spot. Necro, Bargain, Psycatog that kind of thing. Draw 7s are most certainly not "I lose" cards, and even if they were TPS runs some itself.

I think what he specifically meant by "I lose" cards are stuff like Demonic Consultations and Diminishing Returns, which can RFG all your win conditions, and Spoils of the Vault, which can deal you 20 points of damage, hence you actually do lose, right there (or at least, assure that you can't win). Of course, when you're getting your Mind Slaved, more cards become "I lose."

[Necrologia]

I think what he specifically meant by "I lose" cards are stuff like Demonic Consultations and Diminishing Returns, which can RFG all your win conditions, and Spoils of the Vault, which can deal you 20 points of damage, hence you actually do lose, right there (or at least, assure that you can't win).

Fair enough. Even then I fail to see how Draw 7s outside of Diminishing Returns qualify as I lose cards. Combo decks run the highest concentration of broken cards in the format, if the opponent is better able to use his hand than the combo player it's simply because he got a bum draw. It happens, but I'd hardly count it as an I lose card. If draw 7s helped the opponent more than the person playing them, why would they be restricted?

[Whatever Works]

I believe that Rector Tendrils should be in this conversation of Tendrils based decks. It was one of the best combo decks prior to 3sphere, and should be much more playable now. The deck is consistent, and runs alot of disruption. I am disappointed that a terrible deck like draw 7 is even in the conversation of best tendrils decks, because there have been about 500 posts concerning the problems the deck has, and why they are unfixable.

A few issues I have with your evaluation of the listed combo decks. You never brought into consideration playskill, because that is EVERYTHING when it comes to combo decks. If you play perfect combo then the best deck is deathlong (I can call it that now that Smennen is gone). TPS is consistent, but you said it goes off more consistently??? I have to disagree 100% because TPS fizzles out more then any other combo deck in the format.

[Klep]

I believe that Rector Tendrils should be in this conversation of Tendrils based decks. It was one of the best combo decks prior to 3sphere, and should be much more playable now. The deck is consistent, and runs alot of disruption. I am disappointed that a terrible deck like draw 7 is even in the conversation of best tendrils decks, because there have been about 500 posts concerning the problems the deck has, and why they are unfixable.

The problem with Rector Tendrils is that it is VERY vulnerable to hate.  It gets disrupted by most of the same things that disrupt Dragon, only it doesn't have the draw engine Dragon does to make up for it.  Where Dragon gets set back by a Coffin Purge, Rector pretty much loses to it.

[crazynlazy]

A few issues I have with your evaluation of the listed combo decks. You never brought into consideration playskill, because that is EVERYTHING when it comes to combo decks. If you play perfect combo then the best deck is deathlong (I can call it that now that Smennen is gone). TPS is consistent, but you said it goes off more consistently??? I have to disagree 100% because TPS fizzles out more then any other combo deck in the format.

I think he meant once you have a bunch of mana and good cards (by TPS standards) it will go off easier than other combo because you might have a force in hand or have duressed a bunch. But that is the problem with TPS once you ply the first draw7 or mind's desire the cards you get just suck. I think the only reason it was good is because it was really easy to beat workshop decks. and you are right about Deathlong, when it is played well it is the best combo deck out there.