Brain Freeze and Blessing

[Moxlotus]

I cast Brain Freeze with 1937938204 storm copies on the stack and hit my opponent's Blessing.  Is there any way I can kill him if I have an Ancestral Recall in hand?

[Mixing Mike]

Yes, you respond to the Blessing trigger by casting Ancestral Recall on them.  They lose the game when they can't draw any more cards from their library.  That doesn't mean only during their draw step.

[Moxlotus]

Even if Blessing is one of the top cards hit?  The timing part I don't get is between when the Blessing resolves, and the other Storm copies resolve.

I thought it worked, but never knew the exact timing.  I saw this in the SCG forums and don't know how (if possible) to disprove this series of timings:

1. You combo out and possibly draw your deck.
2. Cast Brain Freeze.
3. Storm Triggers.
4. Storm copies go on the stack and you start resolving them.
5. Sometime you turn over Gaea's Blessing and its ability triggers, going on top of the stack.

If somebody can type up a step by step timing interaction it would be appreciated.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you have Ancestral and a second Brain Freeze, it's obviously academic. Otherwise, Brain Freeze + infinite storm vs Blessing runs into the same problem that Dragon had with that card.

[Jacques]

If you had infinite storm, in theory, the Blessing would eventually be the last card milled.  You could then respond to the trigger and win.  With the storm up to 1937938204, you would have to do it that many times or until the blessing was anywhere between the last and third to last card in their deck, in which case you could ancestral them in response for the win.  If you mill them down to the bottom three and it was there you could win.  Otherwise the blessing triggers after the brainfreeze copy that milled it resolves.  Confusing, no?

[Godder]

In this scenario, Blessing only needs to be in the last 5 cards of the library, so I would say that although you can't make it happen, rules-wise (as Jacob mentioned), it should happen reasonably quickly.

Assuming a massive storm count that has been defined as being 10^1000, we do this:

Brain Freeze, storm triggers, 10^1000 triggers placed on stack above Brain Freeze. Every time Blessing comes up, it goes on top of the stack, and the players can respond to it, such as with the Ancestral Recall. If Blessing is in the bottom 5 cards of library, then you will mill 3 cards, leaving 2, trigger Blessing, and then respond to Blessing's trigger by playing Ancestral Recall, which goes on the stack above Blessing, which forces them to draw 3 cards when it resolves, so they lose.

This leads to an interesting question, I guess: If there are 60 cards, but the opponent has (say) a total of 10 cards in their hand, in play and/or RFG, leaving 50 cards in the library, is a 10% chance acceptable? When we shuffle the 50 cards up, a single copy of Blessing has a 10% chance of being in the bottom 5 cards, so if I have 10^1000 copies of Brain Freeze, and I'm using 15 copies per iteration (at most - if I use more copies, I win), are the odds sufficiently in my favour to win without going through the motions?

[Necrologia]

are the odds sufficiently in my favour to win without going through the motions?

This has already been beaten to death in these forums. Basically the opponent is free to scoop at any time, but if him waiting is in his favor ie, he won game 1 and time is running out, there's nothing you can do but hope you get lucky and that your opponent is a quick shuffler.

[nataz]

From SCG ask the judge
this came up recently while playtesting sensei sensei

Q: I have Ambassador Laquatus in play and a method of generating arbitrary amounts of mana at will (and untapping creatures at will). My opponent has thirty-nine cards in his library, two of which are Gaea's Blessing and no cards in the grave. Since the milling and reshuffling could go on potentially forever, could I request that a certain three cards (two Blessings and an island) put left in his library and the rest in his graveyard? This would happen eventually anyway, right?

A: Just because it would eventually happen doesn't mean that you can just jump to that state. It's very different than repeating a set of identical actions with identical results (like mana with Rob Dougherty's Verdant Succession deck). This is one you'll have to play out, and take your actions in a timely fashion. I'd probably put a judge on the match to keep you moving along briskly and so your opponent feels confident that you're not stalling. If you run out of time and get to the five extra turns, I'd put you on the clock (five minutes), like we did in the days of TurboZvi.

[Machinus]

If you run out of time and get to the five extra turns, I'd put you on the clock (five minutes), like we did in the days of TurboZvi.

Holy shit, that is a brutal ruling. Well, thats the first firm decision I have heard from the judge on the issue, but it does look bad for the combo player in this scenario.

[Toad]

Holy shit, that is a brutal ruling. Well, thats the first firm decision I have heard from the judge on the issue, but it does look bad for the combo player in this scenario.

The judge's decision is logical. If the Brain Freeze dude has no way to get rid of the Gaea's Blessing, he does not deserve to win anyways.

So:

are the odds sufficiently in my favour to win without going through the motions?

No. Magic is not a game of odds and probabilities. Even if you had 99% chance of doing what you want to do, you would still have to actually do it.

[Godder]

Magic is entirely and exclusively a game of odds and probabilities. If something can be repeated often enough, the probability of whatever favorable result happening becomes 1 – not possible in TCGs without a lot of time to spare, so I can understand the ruling! Besides which, I hear what you're saying, since we've rehashed it all before .

[Malhavoc]

If the probabilty is not 1, but just even 0.999999999, then an automatic win should not be given. However, setting a timeout of 5 minutes isn't against the rules? Let me explain... usually when time is running out additional turns are declared. But in this situation, everything happens in the same single turn. And could take hours. It makes definitely sense to rule a 5 minutes additional time instead of 5 additional turns, but isn't this a personal decision of the judge, maybe agaisnt the board rules? I'm asking this since I really don't know the answer.

[ProZachar]

Holy shit, that is a brutal ruling. Well, thats the first firm decision I have heard from the judge on the issue, but it does look bad for the combo player in this scenario.

I think the "5 minutes in extra turns" would only be applied in scenarios like this.  The game needs to end at some point.  If a game were in a "typical" state and went to extra turns, I don't think a 5 minute limit would be imposed, as it seems probable that the game will come to an end without intervention.

[Toad]

If something can be repeated often enough, the probability of whatever favorable result happening becomes 1

No you are wrong there. This is not mathematics and limits.
Even if you can achieve a pseudo infinite loop so that during each loop you have 99% winning (the other 1% meaning you have to loop again), you will not be allowed to act as if a loop automatically succeedeed. You'll have to keep looping until you actually succeed.

but isn't this a personal decision of the judge

Players have to play in a timely manneer. This is written in the rules.