Shuffling Techniques.

[Kasuras]

Hi,

I'm planning on making a schoolarticle for my graduation from high school about various shuffle techniques and their link to maths. And thus, I ask the TMD community (as a card playing community) which shuffle technique they prefer.

Now, all I really care about are the hard facts and numbers I get from this poll. Which shuffle technique is the best, which one hurts your cards the least.. that's all for me to figure out, or not.

To make sure everyone understands what I mean with the shuffles mentioned above, the following pictures:

http://blog.empas.com/jm102511/1415145_150x167.jpg (overhand)
http://thadoomlord.home.att.net/card/images/offtablefalseriffle1.jpg (riffle)

And I guess everyone knows what a pile shuffle is.


*Note: I care about which shuffle method you use the most, I know you probably prefer various shuffle techniques but please vote for the one you use the most.

*Note 2: if anyone knows a shuffle method I missed but of which you think is common or really good: post it!

Well, thanks.

[Ender]

In more casual games, I riffle shuffle but in the more competitive tourneys I prefer to pile shuffle trying to randomize my deck even more.

I believe piling is best and it creates the least amount of stress on your cards but it takes up so much time.

[SpencerForHire]

Pile shuffling is the win.  If I don't pile shuffle at least once (usually I do it more) between games.  I end up getting clumps that I really don't wanna see.  This way I know that I have done the best shuffle I can and won't be disgruntled by a game loss if the cards don't come up.

[Mark_Story]

One thing to remember is that pile shuffling really isn't randomization unless there are a number of piles.  Pile shuffle into 2 or 3 piles and see what kind of patterns show up.  Pile shuffling creates stacked piles that aren't completely random.  However, often very useful for evenly distributing cards throughout the deck. 

There are varients on riffle shuffling, that put less wear on the cards.  The one method I use the most is to half the deck, and push the two halves together, so that the cards of the two halves weave together.  Same effect basically as riffle shuffling, but without the unneeded bend and stess on your cards.

[SpencerForHire]

I do the same for rifle shuffling.  And yes I use the pile shuffle to create an even distribution.  After I finish with that I always finish with some rifle shuffling in the exact manner in which you typed.

[ump]

I pile shuffle before every game followed by several riffle shuffles and overhand shuffles mixed in.  I overhand shuffle my opponents deck before the game starts.  When I shuffle my graveyard into my library, I riffle shuffle.  When I tutor, I overhand shuffle.  I prefer pile shuffle, but because of time, I only do that at the start of a game.  I overhand shuffle if it is already mixed.  I riffle shuffle if I want to mix it a little.

[Ephraim]

When it matters, I actually shuffle my deck using all three techniques. Before every game, whether it is casual or competitive, I riffle ~3 times and I overhand shuffle ~3 times. In any competitive event, I also pile shuffle before every match.

[Godder]

The maths has been done on shuffling playing cards, and randomisation is most quickly achieved by riffling*,  in that it takes around 8 riffles to randomise a deck, compared to ~20 minutes of overhand shuffling. Pile 'shuffling' isn't considered to be shuffling at all, but as mentioned, it's a good way to break up clumping (particularly of land), as long as it's combined with other methods.

I personally start with a pile shuffle of 6 piles of 10 (helps make sure that all the cards are there), and then riffle 8 times with an overhand shuffle or two between each riffle. For in-game shuffles, I just riffle quickly and overhand a couple of times.

*or techniques that achieve the same thing – there are equivalent methods that are much softer on the cards.

[Shean]

I personally start with a pile shuffle of 6 piles of 10 (helps make sure that all the cards are there), and then riffle 8 times with an overhand shuffle or two between each riffle. For in-game shuffles, I just riffle quickly and overhand a couple of times.

I do basically the same thing except for a few differences.

Firstly, I always pile shuffle in 11 piles.

Then, I riffle shuffle 3 times.

After I riffle 3 times, I take the bottom quarter of the deck and flick groups of 2-3 cards onto the top.

Then I riffle 5-6 times more.

I've found that pile shuffling is a very good way to stop clumps, but if you do it too many times it will just clump it back up.  Also, flicking the bottom quarter of your deck onto the top ensures that you randomize the whole deck because a lot of times the bottom cards don't get shuffled as well as the rest.

[crazynlazy]

pile shuffling is in my opinion the most random. Before a match I will always pile shuffle and then riffle five times and then keep riffling and shuffling overhand until the other person is done with their shuffling. So I guess a little bit of everything is good.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

best part about thread is it has to be probably the 5-6th re:hash of the same old topic.  And there's really no new information that would make it nessesary to have another one.

[Kasuras]

best part about thread is it has to be probably the 5-6th re:hash of the same old topic.  And there's really no new information that would make it nessesary to have another one.

Actually, there is.

I just asked people to vote for which method (!) they prefer when shuffling, people posting random stuff is fine by me as long as it won't get my thread locked: I really, sorry people, only see it as "ups".

And I care about the numbers, this was never meant to be a thread where people discuss this for the fifth time.

[Toad]

Pile shuffling followed by a couple of riffle shuffles is cheating. It is really not enough to get a deck sufficiently randomized that way. It is, on the other hand, extremely easy to perfectly stack a deck by doing so. Especially If you are 5-pile shuffling twice a deck with 24 mana sources. Pile shuffling is good for breaking all the land or spell clusters in a deck, but should never be considered as actual shuffling. It's just a circular permutation.

[Kasuras]

That is actually quite interesting..

Let's not get into the discussion what randomized really is, but just the principe here. If you only or mainly pile shuffle: it is apperantly not true that you randomise your deck and thus your shuffling technique isn't good. Would that be a sound conclusion to take?

The conclusion that apperantly most of the voters (I want to say TMD actually, vote folks!) don't shuffle well isn't really hard to take then too.

(darn, now I did make it a discussion..)

[crazedpenguinman]

1 PIle shuffle with 5 piles and 3-7 riffles works for me, although usually I riffle.

[goobafish]

I pile shuffle into 6 piles and then slightly riffle without bending and then for the most part overhand em.

[Toad]

I pile shuffle into 6 piles and then slightly riffle without bending and then for the most part overhand em.

This is seriously not enough to guarantee a complete randomization of your deck. I don't have enough time to work on the circular permutations for that, but you can get a perfectly stacked deck with a specific initial setup with your technique.

American judges never do deck checks in T1 tournaments?

[crazedpenguinman]

I am not sure about American judges, Australian ones do however, I would imagine that it would be pretty hard to accuse someone of deck stacking while your checking their deck, they can always say that they are lucky. In the finals of a mox tourney I drew 5 first turn Tinkers out of the 6 games I played, apart from being VERY lucky, I was not questioned that whole day about stacking or what not, probably because I shuffle for about 5-10 minutes.

[Kasuras]

This is seriously not enough to guarantee a complete randomization of your deck. I don't have enough time to work on the circular permutations for that, but you can get a perfectly stacked deck with a specific initial setup with your technique.

Well, if you know a shuffling method where you can't cheat..

-Pile shuffle: obvious, just put the good cards in the Xth of every Y. (where Y is the amount of piles and X the place where all the good cards are, first most of the time)

-Just riffle away all you want, but you can get the top card of your library exactly the same everytime if you want to.

-Overhand: don't get me started.


Of course, if you just shuffle with the intention of shuffling and not cheating: the deck will be randomised. But if you shuffle with the intention to cheat: you can do mad tricks with cards and shuffle for an hour with everyone wowing upon you but still beat the crap out of everyone with your cheating, if you want to.