Gifts Ungiven Belcher...Modifcations and Improvements

[TurbulentDirge]

Ben Kowal's recent runaway victory at SCG P9 Chicago was quite miraculous. The deck he was playing was not spectacular, and should not have won in the field. However, it did.

Gifts Ungiven Belcher
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Pentavus

Artifact Lands
1 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures
2 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Mana Severance
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rushing River

This deck, while extremely strong, is not playing at its optimal level. It is running silly tutors in certain places, and suboptimal cards in others. Here are the immediate changes which I will make
-1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor

-1 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Frantic Search

The bolstering of the tutor base with the Vampiric tutor will definitely aid the decks’ performance. Once the tutor base here is increased, not only does the mana curve drop, but the speed of the deck increases. The ability to tutor for more than the instants and sorceries is crucial when speed is needed. Frantic Search has inarguable synergy with Academy and arguably with Library. Besides, in mana situation the card advantage drawn will be the same. The tradeoff for the “free” attribute for the possibly one card card advantage is worthwhile.

The next two mysterious cards in this deck are [card]Chain of Vapor[/card] and [card]Duress[/card]. The chain’s role as mass bounce at a very cheap cost is overrode by its drawbacks of reciprocation. The opponent can and will turn the chain back at you if it isn’t played immediately. Duress is a worse Therapy. The Therapy offers versatility and massive discard effects. Its prerequisite of metagame advanced knowledge is not too hard to come by, and the overall effect is strong enough to outweigh the smaller caveats with this card.

-2 Duress
+2 Cabal Therapy

-1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Turbulent Dreams

With the second gifts, the deck becomes more consistent with an ability to win faster. With the dreams, you reap the benefits of the massive bounce effect without the risk of an opponent turning it back at you. You almost always have 2 cards in your hand which are worth the bounce tradeoff, so it is quite a powerful card. Here is the newest version with changes made.


Gifts Ungiven Belcher
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Pentavus

Artifact Lands
1 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures
2 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
1 Turbulent Dreams
4 Force Of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Frantic Search

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Mana Severance
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rushing River

So here is where you come in. Are there any other changes which can be made to the deck which will make it better? What changes could be made to the sideboard now that the meta has been even further established? Were my changes a load of crap? All of these things are up to you. I have a few more ideas which need further testing before implementation, but those should be done before the end of the day or two.
Until next time,
-DL

[Machinus]

Ben Kowal's recent runaway victory at SCG P9 Chicago was quite miraculous. The deck he was playing was not spectacular, and should not have won in the field. However, it did.

Why shouldn't have Kowal won the event?

[Outlaw]

Ben Kowal's recent runaway victory at SCG P9 Chicago was quite miraculous. The deck he was playing was not spectacular, and should not have won in the field. However, it did. 

I dont really know if your in a place to make that judgement call?  Brassman, Kowal and I have been working / playing this deck for quite awhile and its really optimal on how it is.  Ben is an amazing player with a definitely amazing deck, I beleive everyone is looking at the deck in the wrong way, its a control/combo deck that acts like control slavery but has the ability to win in a single turn rather than over time.  The vampiric tutor increases the black count when it shouldnt really be there, the deck uses mystical to find tinker / yawgs and ancestral, and frantic search isnt worth dropping a thirst for knowledge.  The deck is spectacular, im not sure if you've had enough testing to see its awesomeness.

[Nefarias]

IMO, the only somewhat valid idea you have may be the Frantic Search. It's not definitely better than TFK, but it deserves testing, I'll give you that. The choice of Vampiric over Mystical is really personal preference, and the pros and cons of each more or less balance each other out. Still, I believe Mystical is the correct choice: the only thing you'd probably ever Vamp for that you couldn't Mystical is Black Lotus in this deck, but more often you'll be getting Ancestral or YawgWill. This is balanced by the fact that Mystical costs U instead of B, and in certain mathcups the life loss, which isn't all that important.  I won't tell you that Vamp over Mystical is wrong, but I can't say it's right, either.

What really gets me though is your assessment of Cabal Therapy over Duress, because I just don't see it. It's really just a guessing game, and the only time you'd reliably flash it back is against Oath. You give no reasons why you think Cabal therapy is better. The only time that sees play is in a deck designed to flash it (rector), or in some combo as Duresses 5-8. Your opinions of Duress and Chain of Vapor demonstrate your different views on how to play the deck, assuming of course you have indeed played it. Both of these cards are used to pave the way for a victory, most often during that turn or the following one. The Chain (or similar card, perhaps Echoing Truth) is there because you need an MD answer for stuff like a resolved Null Rod. The Duress is either played on turn one (a time when Cabal Therapy is borderline useless), or just before you're about to win, just to make sure the way is clear. If you looked at the decklist, you'd see that there are only 5 cards in the entire deck that an opponent can Chain back (omitting artifact mana), and, if played correctly, none of them would matter. You don't need to Chain if you have Pentavus, and if they bounce a Welder, you use it in response, don't Chain back, and then win. I'm guessing by your name that you're a fan of Turbulent Dreams, and if it floats your boat that's fine, but the discarding of cards and extra U hardly justifies the desire to get around Chain's minimal drawback.

[Cross]

Are any of these changes based on any actual play testing? The vampiric tutor for mystical tutor is the only one that I would think about doing. Frantic search is major card disadvantage while thirst for knowledge is both card advantage and a way to dump to your graveyard. Cabal therapy makes no sense as you run no creatures.

I have playtested a lot against the current version, and I can say that the build Kowal is running very much did deserve to win SCG.

[Hatt0ri Hanz0]

Notably These changes sound rather absurd, however as a means of moving this thread in a productive direction questions over the use of Mystical Tutor over Vamp. may hold some weight. To Brassman, Kowal, and Outlaw: Did you ever consider running Vamp in the place or w/ conjunction of Mystical?

It seems that from what i Understand of the deck, that it Use of Vamp may be redundant as it will be used to fetch the same gamebreaking cards that mystical would and holds the important drawbacks of less readily availability of Black mana and probably the most important: Does NOT pitch to Force.

However Durring Testing have you found that added utility and versatility of being able to fetch (tolarian/library) or even lotus/welder etc. been reason for possible inclusion

-Matt

[TurbulentDirge]

The use of vampiric and frantic have been well tested enough for me to safely say I prefer them. Since the decklist came out, I have tested it. Granted that this timeframe is not nearly as long as kowal himself has tested it, but a fair 20-30 games with it on MWS. I disliked the lack of versatility with mystical tutor, as often I wanted a welder or non isntant-sorcery card. The black curve, if slightly thrown off, could be amended by using a fourth underground sea in the place of the island. The search i just like better in the deck from the testing I have had. Again, granted I have only played a total of 40 games with the deck, 10 with implemented changes.

Now comes the controversy. Therapy vs. Duress. Cross states that I run no creatures so the choice makes no sense. This is a skewed statement for two reasons.
Reason 1: You have creatures in the form of Pentavites. Welders are not therapy bait, but pentavites definately are. The ability to reweld the pentavus after its counters are depleted produces great mid-late game synergy with the therapy
Reason 2: Duress has no secondary application with creatures. Therapy is a guessing duress which can target creatures. However, that guessing reputation is suitably unfair. Often you will have a fair or better idea of what your opponent is playing. I do agree that duress can be used more consistently, but I enjoy the ability to rip anything from my opponents hand.
As to Turbulent Dreams, I acknowledge the absurdity of this change now. I tested a few more games (post changes testing games at 15) and discovered that the card disadvantage is problematic, as is the extra U. The reciprocation of Chain, however, can cause problems regardless. Echoing Truth may be a better route here, but that needs to be tested.
Keep in mind that I have only played the deck 35 times vs. Kowals' hunderds.

The changes as they stand
-1 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Frantic Search

-1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor

 (-1 Chain of Vapor)
(+1 Echoing Truth)  = ?

-DL

[Mixing Mike]

The ability to reweld the pentavus after its counters are depleted produces great mid-late game synergy with the therapy

Duress is best on the first turn of the game.  Duress will always make their hand worse, WHILE telling you how to play yours.  This is you one shouldn't play Cabal Therapy.  You shouldn't have to hit a creature with Therapy because you just combo them out before theykill you.  This deck will usually win turns 3-4.  I think that's faster than most creatures can kill you in.

The changes as they stand
-1 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Frantic Search

This deck is a control deck.  Sure untapping Academy is a nice trick, but in a dire situation, Thirst will always put you back into the game whereas Frantic Search is only good when you're already winning.

[Kowal]

I don't really have the time to make this elequent, nor do I really care.

Your proposed changes weaken the deck and lack any real reasoning.

Thirst For Knowledge is played as a draw spell, not a discard outlet.  Frantic Search is card disadvantage.

Vampiric doesn't ever fetch anything I'd not be able to fetch with Mystical.  I love Vampiric and I tried it, but it's not good enough.  All it ever does is shock me to get Tinker or Will or Gifts, and sit there in my hand without being able to get shipped out for Force of Will.

Cabal Therapy?  Um, wtf?  Duress is the single greatest unrestricted spell for a control mirror (better than brainstorm, imo) and you want to replace it with something that requires me to lose one of my two creatures (because therapy is NOT a combo with pentavus, I'm sorry) in order to be any better than duress in any way?  You can't even guarantee you'll hit anything the first time.  That's horrendous.

Turbulent Dreams is another massive wtf.  I don't think I need to explain to anyone else on TMD why that card is shit, but I guess I do need to explain chain of vapor.  I have four total permanents that I would mind seeing returned to my hand.  Two of them cost a single mana.  In the mean time, if I cast this spell during a Mindslaver turn, I just win the game.  And since people tend to set chalices at 2 against me, this dodges the Echoing Truth problem.

Are there any other questions, professor?

[onelovemachine]

Ben Kowal's recent runaway victory at SCG P9 Chicago was quite miraculous. The deck he was playing was not spectacular, and should not have won in the field. However, it did.

I would just like to ask, who are you to bash the winning deck at SCG Chicago?  The field was diverse and this deck, which was obviously tested extensively by Short Bus and Kowal, won.  In fact, it won out.  I am fairly sure that Ben didn't experience a match loss all day.  

The deck he was playing was not spectacular

Furthermore, if his deck isn't spectacular then why play it?  Why do you think you wanna try your hand at SSB if it isn't "spectacular?"

From the SCG forums:

Are you kidding? I have always loved belcher, and this new version presents new challenges when playing the deck. I for one will be playing this new archetype
-DL

So which is it Mr. I have never tested the deck before?

I have to know: what in the world are you going to get with vamp that you can't with mystical?  Goblin welder maybe?  If that's all you want to get I'm sure there is a better chioice for the slot.  Frantic search is the most asinine suggestion over thirst for knowledge that I think you could have made.  It's not card advantage and most of your early mana is from artifacts not lands so what's the point?

The next two mysterious cards in this deck are Chain of Vapor and Duress. The chain’s role as mass bounce at a very cheap cost is overrode by its drawbacks of reciprocation. The opponent can and will turn the chain back at you if it isn’t played immediately. Duress is a worse Therapy. The Therapy offers versatility and massive discard effects.

So I gather by your signature on SCG that you are an extended player.  This statement surely attests to that.  I bet you want to play therapy so you can flash it back using your vamp tutored goblin welder.  Not very good.  Duress is used to force through your game winning spell.  Yawgmoth's will.  This deck is a will combo deck more than anything else.  You need to resolve gifts, will, tinker, recoup for one of those etc.  and duress is a one mana, sure fire way to set that up.  Chain of vapor is a metagame slot more than likely used to clear off annoyiing things like null rod.  Judging by the speed of the deck, it made the cut over something more versatile like cunning wish because it was easier/faster to cast.  

-1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Turbulent Dreams

Oh my.  Please learn to play type one before posting any more decklist assessments.  Thanks.

Duress has no secondary application with creatures. Therapy is a guessing duress which can target creatures. However, that guessing reputation is suitably unfair. Often you will have a fair or better idea of what your opponent is playing. I do agree that duress can be used more consistently, but I enjoy the ability to rip anything from my opponents hand

Which creatures do you plan on hitting in type one?  If it is anything but goblin welder think again.  If it is goblin welder therapy is still subpar to anything like lava dart in the getting rid of welder department.  You see, in type one we have these things called combo decks.  They deserve being duressed not therapied as you will probably never hit with the latter.  

not nearly as long as kowal himself has tested it, but a fair 20-30 games with it on MWS

You should probably quit posting while you're ahead.

Keep in mind that you have only played the deck 35 times vs. Kowal's hundreds.

[TurbulentDirge]

I already rescinded my Turbulent Dreams addition. It was a terrible faux pas to put it mildly.
Therapy < Duress. Having been severly blandished for the suggestion of therapy I will cease to advocate it.
Frantic search I still believe to be a far addition to the deck. The same goes for Vampiric Tutor.
Are there any other deck related suggestions?
-DL

[unicoerner]

I don t see the point why this deck is better than CS . Only because it neads only one turn to win?

[Kowal]

Keep in mind that you have only played the deck 35 times vs. Kowal's hundreds.

More importantly, BrassMan's thousands.

in reference to why this is better than Slaver:

Gifts Ungiven is fucking ridiculous and broken.  You cast it and you win, it's a better spell than Fact or Fiction by far.

Slaver is slow, it has issues with aggro and needs to run Platts sometime to avoid losing to it.  It has difficulty setting up the game winning combo on the yawgmoth's will turn, and is (surprisingly) weaker against graveyard hate, since Slaver lock and Pentavus are less feasible than Severance-Belcher in terms of being able to just cast them and win, especially through a counter wall.

In addition, the deck doesn't need more than two welders, and that scenerio of brainstorming in to shitty, shitty welder in a tight control game comes up very rarely.

Also, both the Belcher and the Severance do something before you have active welder + thirst, and before you have one million mana.  Granted, this has become less relevant with the addition of Pentavus and Mindslaver to the maindeck, but even so, compare these two early dead slots to Slaver's 3-6.

One other thing, which is especially relevant in new england:  It does very, VERY well against Control Slaver, both traditional and Intuition fueled.  Winning the mirror is something every Control Slaver player has been struggling with.  Winning the pseudo-mirror is good enough for me.

[Dante]

Often you will have a fair or better idea of what your opponent is playing.

In a large, "real" tournament like SCG with 150+ people, often in the early rounds, you will have no idea what your opponent is playing unless they play first or they sat next to you round one. 

Even if they play first, If they go Polluted Delta, pass the turn, what would you name with Cabal Therapy?  They could be playing a million different decks (i.e. anything with blue from Control Slaver to Bird Shit to Mono Blue to Oath).  If you have Duress, you're guaranteed to get rid of a business card.

As for Vamp vs Mystical, did you ever test against aggro decks like the kind you'll find in a big tournament (Food Chains, Workshop, even "bad" zoo decks, etc)?  You need to bust out combo-like on them to win because of zero removal (even if you run 1 Trike, that doesn't really cut it) and it's often a very close race (i.e. you kill them the turn before they kill you) and the lifeloss is NOT insignificant.  Also, depending if you have access to black (if people try they can cut you off black), Vamp will be harder to cast.

Bill

PS I just played this at SCG Chicago to a 4-2-2 finish, plus 30 test games beforehand.

[jcb193]

More importantly, BrassMan's thousands.

This thread is already spinning out of control, but before we throw all reason to the wind, and since we are comparing shlong sizes (ie, games played with _____ deck)


"Thousands of games played"= ~2500 games?????

By my simple math, that comes to 50,000 minutes.  Let's try to be a little more accurate.  We all play lots of T1, but i doubt we've played 800+ hours with a deck that is only 1-2 months old. 


*Disclaimer*= I'm not trying to start a flame war, or even singling out Kowal.  I am just stating that often on this site people use games played as a barometer for experience, knowledge, and a final resolution for any argument.  In support of that, let's stay accurate when comparing games played. 

[Kowal]

It's actually quite a bit older than 1-2 months.  The very first lists stem from CAB's gifted article, which was published on SCG three and a half months ago.

You also overestimate BrassMan's ability to find things to do.  He's too lazy to get a job or go to school :p

Regardless, before I hijack the thread any further, to get back on topic...


People have been asking me a lot, what I would change in hindsight with this deck.  And I've been struggling to come up with anything.  The only discussion point I can bring up for you cats is a sideboard slot I'm freeing up by cutting the third Tormod's Crypt.  I can never find room to bring in all three, since most matchups I want them I have other stuff to bring in that's better, like REB or Rack and Ruin.  I don't know what will go in that slot.

[Engine_number_9]

This decks runs 14 lands. From my very limited testing (more than 30 MWS games ) I often found myself in a situation where i had to mulligan to get a turn 1 land-drop. Is this an issue, just something that this should deck suffer from to run optimally or is it just me being unlucky?

[Kowal]

My list runs 15 lands.  That's exactly the reason why.

[TurbulentDirge]

A new change to consider for the deck.
-1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Gifts Ungiven

The brokenness of this card is totally ridiculous in this deck. Fact is a good card, granted, but the Gifts is far more useful in the deck.


Changes as they stand (aka changes which have not been brutally refutted)
 
(-1 Mystical Tutor)
(+1 Vampiric Tutor) = while a strong argument against the life loss vs. aggro was presented, the 3-4 win this deck boasts
                                should be able to out run the aggro

(-1 Thirst for Knwoledge)   =  I have now tested the deck 5 times with search and 5 with 4 thirsts. The thirst often results
(+1 Frantic Search)               in the same card advantage/disadvantage as the search as this deck by no means runs an
                                           abundance of artifacts. The untapping ability allowed for an early win in 2 of the 5 games too

(-1 Fact or Fiction)
(+1 Gifts Ungiven)    =    Too kowal...did you guys test this? In my testing I like the gifts more than FoF. I totally agree
                                    here with you in your post.

Any other refutations or agreements?
-DL

[Whatever Works]

This deck has been around for a long long time. I got Brassman to give me his original list over 1 and 1/2 months before SCG Syracuse, and when I got the list from him he told me that he had been tinkering with the deck for over 2 months. I myself have at least 500 games (minimum) with the deck, and 5 tournements (4 which I top 8'ed), and I must say that if this deck is played well (which im am 100% sure it is in the hands of a player like Kowall) the deck is definetly the best deck in the format considering it beats CS and Oath (post board) with consistency.

Frantic Search is bad because the deck rarely wins with welder *probably less then 15% of wins* come via a welders/pentavus. The welders just provide versatility, and a much greater versatility with the smart inclussions of pentavus etc. The decklist when I saw it impressed me, and it has inspired me to change my maindeck echoing truth for a chain of vapor because I never noticed the CoTV for 2 problem that does exist.

Also Frantic Search is terrible because people often confuse this deck with a combo deck, and this deck is really a control deck that is similar to hulk in that it has the ability to combo out. However, Frantic Search doesnt fit at all, because this deck doesnt run alot of lands, and really doesnt want to discard cards at all... If the deck ran deep analysis maybe you could make a case, but it doesnt.

If you want a real suggestion for the deck then here is mine. Add 1 copy of Boseiju, who shelters all... I tried the card in testing, and I loved the card in testing. It can be argued as random or unneccessary, but it can act like a library of alexandria in that when it is active it can single handedly win the control matchup.

[Kowal]

Honestly, the reason I'm still playing FoF is because it's something to get when you don't have enough of a developed board position to make Gifts worth it, or when you're afraid of extending in to grave hate.  Gifts is the more powerful spell, but Fact or Fiction is admittedly less conditional.

In terms of Frantic Search vs Thirst, if you find yourself constantly lacking artifacts to discard, you're probably playing the deck wrong.  Holding back moxes or keeping large artifacts in hand instead of on top when you brainstorm is just part of using Thirst correctly.  This deck runs as many artifacts as most slaver lists, and I believe it even runs one more than The Atog Lord's most recent lists.

The biggest argument against Vamp is that there's nothing you want to Vamp for that you can't Mystical for instead.  That said, there's also the pitchability to FoW, the life loss, and the ease of finding blue mana.

[Jacob Orlove]

(-1 Thirst for Knwoledge)   =  I have now tested the deck 5 times with search and 5 with 4 thirsts. The thirst often results
(+1 Frantic Search)               in the same card advantage/disadvantage as the search as this deck by no means runs an
                                           abundance of artifacts. The untapping ability allowed for an early win in 2 of the 5 games too

Assuming you don't have an artifact, Thirst is draw 3, discard 2. Search is always draw 2, discard 2. How is that "the same card advantage/disadvantage"? Thirst is at worst a net gain of zero cards, and usually a net gain of one. Search is always a net loss of one card, which is just awful for a control deck.

Even if you're playing badly and not holding on to artifacts, Thirst is still better.

[TurbulentDirge]

I can safely lay the search vs. thirst argument to rest for now. Perhaps it will show up later

Whatever works posted an interesting idea which is worth pursuing. Boseiju Who Shelters All. If you look at the number of castable instants and sorceries (excluding U or B spells as well as FoW and Mana Drain) 20% of the deck (12 cards) can be affected by Boseiju. As FoW is a staple of many T1 decks, as is MD, the Boseiju would help both the combo and control aspects of the deck. Kowal's argument is not convincing (sorry to be blunt) as to why FoF is included over gifts. I will take the point on board position, but in testing how many times (if you can quantify this number) have you wanted Gifts over FoF?
Another change to consider...Kowal and co. Did you ever consider running intution in the deck? The reasons for why I ask are obvious, but was it ever considered in your design of the deck? If not, it could be another card to consider adding to the deck.

Changes as they Stand

(-1 Mystical Tutor )   = this deck is more of a control deck than combo. true. but I believe depending on play style these
(+1 Vampiric Tutor)    cards could be interchangeable. testing and comments have revealed that Mystic > Vamp in this case

(-1 'Land')                               = Depending on the amount of control being faced, the Boseiju might have applications to
(+1 Boseiju Who Shelters All)        this deck. However, an argument against it due to a) life loss and b) practicalltiy can be
                                                easily made. We will see how this turns out

(-1 ?card?)       = Depending on whether or not Kowal tested this card in his rigorous process of deckbuilding, we can
(+1 Intuition)       pursue or abandon this idea. As of now, I see no reason why it should be quickly discounted.

Thirst > Search

Until the next bout
-DL

[Klep]

(-1 Mystical Tutor )   = this deck is more of a control deck than combo. true. but I believe depending on play style these
(+1 Vampiric Tutor)    cards could be interchangeable.

How many times do we have to tell you there is nothing you want to Vamp for that Mystical won't find?  Welder isn't that important in this deck,  the big artifacts are either found easily or gotten with Tinker, and if you're Vamping for a mana source you should have mulliganned.  Everything else is an instant or a sorcery.  There is really no question as to which of these two cards is better.

(-1 'Land')                               = Depending on the amount of control being faced, the Boseiju might have applications to
(+1 Boseiju Who Shelters All)        this deck. However, an argument against it due to a) life loss and b) practicalltiy can be
                                                easily made. We will see how this turns out

Boseiju is undeniably a house, and this is worth investigating.  I don't think anything should be considered for replacement with this except the Citadel, however, as cutting down on colored sources could make  for some bad times.

(-1 ?card?)       = Depending on whether or not Kowal tested this card in his rigorous process of deckbuilding, we can
(+1 Intuition)       pursue or abandon this idea. As of now, I see no reason why it should be quickly discounted.

Gifts is just better for this deck, and there's nothing that can really be cut for it except maybe FoF, the reasons for including which we've already discussed.  I also find it highly unlikely that Intuition hasn't already been explored as an option for this deck, though I wasn't a party to the testing process.

[darkchild]

I have recently picked up this deck and so far its been a blast but there are a few problems that i face in my metagame.

1) there are players playing planar void pb in their 4cc, (dun ask me why?) and it has posted a few problems with this deck as i cant gifts effectively.

2) I am currently running Kowal's decklist from SCG and though the mana base is stable, if I am hit by two wasteland in the early i find that its very difficult to recover from, is there a possibility to add more islands?

3) From my testing Gorilla shaman is a must counter , anyone can feedback me more if they too are facing the same problems?

Once again, congratulations and thanks for developing a great deck short bus

[Kowal]

As far as 1 goes, it shouldn't be THAT much of a problem.  Keeper is easy to outdraw, and you can just combo them out the hard way.  You can also weld with Planar Void's trigger on the stack, making Mindslaver recursion not only feasible, but easy.

For 2, it's easy to add in more islands.  I don't expect wasteland to be prominant, but if you do, feel free to cut one of each dual for islands.  My teammate Andy BrassMan Probasco runs 3 Volcanic, 2 Sea normally, and does just fine.

For 3, I usually just don't worry about Gorilla Shaman.  I don't see it often and if I did, I probably still wouldn't worry.  I can see where you'd have problems though.  Decks that have Gorilla Shaman are usually vulnerable to Blue Elemental Blast in game two anyway--  Just run 3 of them and cut a Tormod's Crypt.

[darkchild]

Thanks for all the help, I have added a second island for an underground sea and the mana base is pretty stable now. Just wondering what cards do you normally cut when you sb? I find the deck so tight there is very little room for manuveur when it comes to sbing.

CS: - 2 welders, 1 chain, 1 pentavus, 1 mystical,

       +2 reb, 2 beb, 1 tormod crypt

4 cc: -1 chain , 1 mystical , 1 brainstorm

        +3 reb

tog: same as 4 cc

Storm based combo: - 2 welders, 1 pentavus

                              +3 chalice

Workshop decks: - 2 duress

                          + 2 rack and Ruin

Fish decks: - 2 duress, -1 mindslaver

                + 3 reb

oath : - 1 brainstorm, 2 welders, 1 chains of vapour, 1 mystical

             + 3 reb and 2 rushing river

dragon: - 2 duress

             +2 tormod crypt

Could someone guide me if that is the correct way of sbing for this deck as its one of the tighest decks ever, Thanks!

[Nefarias]

In TheBrassMan's report on SCG, he goes through a few of the SB options. There were a lot of aggro match-ups for him that day, but he tackles TPS, TnT, Belcher, FCG, Affinity, and UndergroundSenseiSensei.

[zero]

[quote And since people tend to set chalices at 2 against me, this dodges the Echoing Truth problem.]

I don't understand this. Shouldn't they be chalicing for 1? I played a gifts deck a few weeks ago for fun, and my first turn duress' took chalices because they could set it at 1 on their first turn (opponent was playing monoblue with chalices). I assumed shutting off 4x brainstorm, x duress, x welder, mystical, chain, mana vault, ancestral, sol ring hosed this deck more. In fact, his basic game plan was just to chalice for 1 ASAP. For this reason I added one echoing truth, it was either that or the rushing  river. I also had never played the deck before that day, so I realize my reasoning may be off. I also think only workshops could chalice for 2 within the first 2 turns on a regular basis, is this what you meant? Are they more worried about recoup and severance than the larger chunk of the deck at cc1 ?

[Kowal]

They're worried about Drain, and rightly so.