Gifts Ungiven

[Luiggi]

While we're on the topic of Gifts Ungiven, I have a question for Ben regarding his Quarter-Final match with Robert Vroman: the StarCity coverage for Game 2 says "Gifts Ungiven from Kowal only found two cards, earning a cheer from Andy Probasco for the clever play, as Kowal found Mindslaver and Pentavus and shipped them directly to the grumper, do not pass go, do not collect $200."

I was just wondering how that was possible, since Gifts Ungiven says "Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal them", and not "up to four cards"...

Luiggi

[TurbulentDirge]

I will answer this question. it is quite obvious and you should not be posting here if you dont know the answer.

Saturday School quote (magicthegathering, search for "Gifts Ungiven"): "Q: When I play Gifts Ungiven, can I find as few cards as I want, since it's a tutor? Say, find just 2 cards and fail to find the other 2? --Chris J.

A: You can, but notice that the first thing Gifts does is put the chosen two into your graveyard. So if you find fewer than three cards, then the card or cards are going in your graveyard."

Ask the Judge quote (SCG, search for "Gifts Ungiven"): "From the Official Champions of Kamigawa FAQ:

Gifts Ungiven

* You can choose less than four cards if you want, but your opponent will still put two of those cards into your graveyard."

Understand this before continue to post here. Sorry if that sounded rude. it was merely meant as stern
-DL

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to rules forum.

TurbulentDirge: Saturday School is sometimes wrong. It's much better to cite the comprehensive rules, which actually explain the situation:

Search
If you're required to search a zone not revealed to all players for cards matching some criteria, you aren't required to find those cards even if they're present; however, if you do choose to find cards, you must reveal those cards to all players. Even if you don't find any cards, you are still considered to have searched the zone.
     If you're simply searching for "any card," you must find a card (if possible).
     If you're required to search for a specific number of cards, you must choose that many cards (or as many as possible.)
Example: If an effect causes you to search a player's library for all duplicates of a particular card and remove them from the game, you may choose to leave some of them alone, but if an effect causes you to search your library for three cards and it contains at least three, you can't choose less than three.
     If an effects states to search for a [type, supertype, or subtype] card, it can only find cards that have that type, supertype, or subtype. It can't find a card that has a name equal to that type, supertype, or subtype unless that card also has the type, supertype, or subtype.

Since Gifts is searching a non-public zone (your library) for cards with a specific condition (unique names), you can fail to find the full number of cards if you wish.

[Luiggi]

Jacob: thanks for the explanation. I figured it was something along those lines, but I wanted to be sure, never having played a Gifts deck. I'll be sure not to post Rules questions in non-Rule forums in future.

TurbulentDirge: I appreciate your answer, but I do not, however, appreciate your tone.

Luiggi

[Nibble]

Since Gifts is searching a non-public zone (your library) for cards with a specific condition (unique names), you can fail to find the full number of cards if you wish.

I understand the reasoning to some extent here, as obviously if you Worldly Tutor at any time, it's possible you don't have any creatures in your deck, so you can believably tell your opponent 'I find nothing.'  However, unless your library is 8 cards or less, or one of the cards you find is a basic land or Relentless Rats, it's always possible to find at least three cards with unique names, if your deck is legal. When Kowal searches and only finds Pentavus and Mindslaver, he's implying to his opponent that he couldn't find another unique name, which would mean the rest of the cards in his deck are Pentavuses and Mindslavers.

As defined in the comp rules, this is the way things work, it just doesn't make sense with Gifts to me.

[Jacob Orlove]

The rules are set up to protect you from having to reveal information about hidden zones in some circumstances, which leads to someone non-intuitive results in other circumstances. Basically, the only good way to let people fail to find something is to make it so they can always fail to find something. It leads to odd uses of Gifts, but there are plenty of other rules that lead to weirder uses of normal looking cards.

[Mixing Mike]

This is also how you're able to play a fetchland when controlling someone's turn and not find a land once you activate the fetch.  The same may go for any kind of tutor.

[Jacob Orlove]

The same may go for any kind of tutor.

Not true. Demonic, for example, must always find some card, as long as there's at least one card in the library. Intuition, similarly, must get 3 cards.

[Toad]

If the tutor asks you to search for a specific number of cards without any kind of specific requirements in a non public zone, you have to find the cards if you can. This is true for Intuition, Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor.

If the tutor asks you to search for cards matching specific criteria in a non public zone, you can chose to find nothing. This is true for Mystical Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Tinker, Gifts Ungiven or fetchlands.

It is a bit different for cards that makes you search public and non public zones, Cranial Extraction for example. You have to find all the named cards in your opponent's graveyard, since It's a public zone. Nevertheless, you can chose to find none of the named card in his library (non public zone).

For info, the 6 zones in Magic :
* Graveyards = public
* Libraries = non public
* Hands = non public
* In play = public
* Stack = public
* RFG = public for cards RFG faced up. Cards RFG faced down can't be accessed by any player (cf. Memory Jar)

(Ante zone and Phased-Out zone are obsolete).

[Tristal]

Actually, I believe you can Death Wish for a card RFG face-down, but you can't look at it before choosing it - it'll be random.

[Gabethebabe]

Phased out is not really obsolete. Rainbow Efreet is still a decent card.

So what if I want to Cunning Wish for a face-down RFG card?

[Luiggi]

I'd imagine that you can't Cunning Wish for a face-down RFG card, since you have no way of showing that it's an instant and that it's a legal target for Cunning Wish. Since Death Wish can fetch any card, not just instants, it might be possible, according to what Tristal said.

Luiggi

[Toad]

The rules consider Phasing as an obsolete ability. This is the same for Flanking and Banding.

217.1. A zone is a place where objects can be during a game. There are normally six zones: library, hand, graveyard, in play, stack, and removed from the game.

[epeeguy]

The rules consider Phasing as an obsolete ability. This is the same for Flanking and Banding.

Perhaps "obsolete" means something different to you, but the CompRules never refer to any of these as "Obsolete".  For example, the rule you cited actually says:

217.1. A zone is a place where objects can be during a game. There are normally six zones: library, hand, graveyard, in play, stack, and removed from the game. Some older cards also use the ante and phased-out zones. Each player has his or her own library, hand, and graveyard. The other zones are shared by all players.

Saying something is "not normally used" hardly means obsolete.  Point of fact, Banding, Flanking or Phasing are never addressed in the glossary as being obsolete.  The only things that are "obsolete" are literally those terms that aren't used anymore.  Such as:

Ante
Bury
Cast
Caster
During
Interrupt
Islandhome
Legend
Mana Source
Mono Artifact
Poly Artifact
Redirect
Successfully Cast
Summon
Total Casting Cost

These are all noted as being "obsolete", as they are no longer in use.  Phasing is never once referred to this way.

[Luiggi]

Any rules insights into Gabethebabe's question regarding Cunningly Wishing for a face-down RFG card?

Luiggi

[Jacob Orlove]

So what if I want to Cunning Wish for a face-down RFG card?

You can't.

[Tristal]

Even if you know precisely what card it is (Say, your Memory Jar hand only had one Intuition in it) you still aren't allowed to Cunning WIsh for it face down.

[Jaapmans]

Sorry dudes, I might be wrong on this one, but as far as I know you can wish for a face down card. The sideboard is face down. Any player is not allowed to look at any face down cards during play, but with the wish, you can look at any RMFG card, including the face down ones. Like I said, I might be missing something here, but the only thing that will make me state otherwise is a backed up ruling.

Jaap

[Nibble]

As far as I know, Jaap, you're technically correct, but a special case was made for sideboards. If you look on the Gatherer page for Golden Wish, for instance, look at the second ruling - "In tournament play, it can give you any appropriate card removed from the game, or any card in your sideboard." So you're correct in that the sideboard is an out-of-game pile of cards non-public to all players, but the Wishes were ruled to specifically allow access to the sideboard. Wishes requiring a card that meets a certain criteria still can't get normal face-down removed-from-game cards.


Edit: After a bit of digging, I found Saturday School #29 and Saturday School #51. Specifically:

Q:  What happens when Parallel Thoughts leaves play? The way it's worded, there's no special provision for this case, so I presume the unused rest of its pile stays removed. But it's still face down, right? How do Wishes interact with this pile?

A: If Parallel Thoughts leaves play, the cards stay removed forever, with no option to return regularly. The only way to get them back is by using Death Wish or Ring of Ma'Ruf, since these let you get any card from outside the game. You're not allowed to look at cards that are removed from the game face down, so there is no way of knowing if the other Wishes would be able to get the card or not.

Q: How do the wishes from Judgment interact with Shared Fate? For example, could my opponent use Living Wish target cards that I removed from his library with Shared Fate? If so, does he get to look at them first?

A: You can only Wish for the removed cards using Death Wish, and then you will get a random card from the removed cards. The reason for this is that the cards are removed from the game face down, and you don't know what kind of cards they are, even if your opponent is allowed to look at them. The only Wish that can get any card without restrictions is Death Wish, so that's the only Wish that can get face-down cards.