Cunning Wizard - testing a new deck

[Malhavoc]

I've been testing this deck for some time, and even if it's working quite good, it still needs to be fixed. After the usual tweaks for a new deck, I feel it has however reached the level where it has gained a structure and it is worth discussing.

The idea is an aggro-control, slightly more on the control side really. It has something in similar with the Ninja Sword we are also discussing, but it is quite different really, and it's also a lot different from UWR fish, even if it has a lot of cards in common, first of all because its target it's not making mana denial (null rod and vial do not work well together..)

So, here it is:

// Mana
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

// Win Contidions/utilities/control elements
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Meddling Mage
4 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Swords of Fire and Ice

// Counterspells
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

// Engine
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill

// Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

// Aswers for anything, utilities, drawings
4 Cunning Wish


// Sideboard

Sideboard is now full of cunning targets. Cards however that can be put in main deck anyway if we need. We could however cut some space for cards like pyrostatic pillar, gilded drake and tormod's crypt.

SB: 1 Argivian Find -- If we have board advantage and already played standstill this can be read 1WB: draw three. Sometimes it can also be used to take vial back (or even lotus, but it's not usually worth it).
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow -- chalice for two hurts a bit. Does not kill (thanks to vial) but hurtsi, so we need an answer not costing 2. This can even give us a huge card advantage after a drain or in late game.
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Fire/Ice or Lava -- which is this better? it depends.. I would prefere to cut one of them, however. Probably dart.
SB: 1 Gush -- good also to save our dual lands
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Orim's Thunder --Really nice! Doesn't cost too much and can take away, let's say... karn and welder in one shot.
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Rushing River --excellent against oath
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Teferi's Response -- the mana base is not so solid, so this could be helpful, since mishra are also targets for anything. They can even take out lavamancers or similar things if they have targeted the mishra.
SB: 1 Dominate --tech! The mana cost is not so light, but I've taken a welder with this, and it's waaaay better than killing him. Particularly if you have also named welder with meddling. You can also take token (6/6 wurms?) and morphed creatures (exalted angel?) for 1UU, nasty creatures like river boa or mongrel for 2UU (even if you can't regenerate it). Sometimes after a drain can also take big guys. And the effect is permanent.

The best hand we can hope to get is first turn vial. This let us put into play mages keeping mana open for drain or voidmage's ability.

Voidmage is a house in this deck! Under vial it's reallya 2cc counter with legs, and changes all our mages into counters with legs. It make lavamancer really helpful even in the combo or control match-up. Agaisnt fish it is also possible to play it as a more resistent 2/2. Sometimes people could think it's something even worse like an exalted angel.

And most of all about its ability: it's immune to

-other counters
-duress
-xanti swarm
orim's chant
sphere and trinisphere
defence grid
misdirection
reb (reb can kill him, but if you have two of them and UU open you still have your counter)

...and that's quite a lot. Under vial it can also be played with the surprise of a classic counterspell.


Against combo we have a lot of bombs: force, drain, meddling, and with voidmage other 12 counterspells (which also beat), cunning which can take everything harmful and standstill which is a sure draw. We just need to resist the first turn against broken starts, but then we are on the run. Against combo player reduced to topdecking it is also not strange to sacrifice a meddling (which is so powerful agaisnt him) instead of voidmage just to keep another counterspell active, hoping to draw other mages, keeping beating and controlling.

Against control we have a lot of counter-control cards, and vial is really good to avoid counters. Where we lack a bit is at the draw engine: hulk draws of course a lot more, but a well placed meddling can be quite harmfull as well.

Aggro instead is a dangerous match. We stay a bit better than fish against aggro, but we need to get to 3 mana in orde to start taking answers with cunning. Lavamancers and mishras however help a lot. The bad thing is that standstill becomes a lot useful against them.

Among the sinergies in the deck a point out (apart from the obvious standstill-vial and the 12 counter-mages) the possibility to remove fromthe game an instant with lavamancer and get it back with cunning. This changes our cunnings in 4 ancestral/force/drain/AlreadyWishedCards. So, just in case we ran out of counterspells...

The mana base is a problem, since even under vial we need red for lavamancer, and both red and white are somehow needed for wish targets. White is also needed for meddling if we do not draw vial. Voidmages and drains force use to have a big blue manabase, so the green and black mox were taken out (white and red are still in however). Sol ring gives us a big speed boost for wishes and their targets,  for swords, and sometimes even to play voidmage morphed. We had to choose among mishra and wastelands, and I've chosen the first for their sinergy with standstill, their ability to slow down aggro, and to have more creature power. Wastelands are less needed in a metagame where decks are used to it IF we do not make any other sort of mana denial. However I would pay for them against bazaar or library.


And now some cards that were tested, but seemed not to fit in, or need discussion:

Sword of fire/ice: excellent against aggro, devastating against fish if they are equiped before a null rod, make us draw and kill creatures, give a faster clock, but are quite slow and are vulnerable to null rod (which give us some problems already). I'm keeping them in, but it's questionable.

Curiosity: Not enough creatures, and particularly not evasive enough. Swords take more to enter play, but our creatures not alway are in in the first/second turn, and sword are more game breaking.

exalted angel: It's awesome when hit play, and can be a good way to use drained mana, but the two white to cast/morph it are really a lot, particularly against decks which do land hate.

lightning bolt: a side card to take with wish... fire/ice is always better apart from zoo with al those 2/3 creatures.

Gilded Drake: awesome, non counterable with vial in play, but can't go main deck, and need to take at least a couple of slots in side to be used well.. and space is lacking.

funeral pyre: big problemL we have no way to deal with opponent's graveyard. The colors give us nothing, but after all against welder decks we shot/steal welder, against dragon we wish for StP/Stifle/beb; the real problems are those decks which uses threshold or gain card advantage with bazaar/library. But this card as little effect.

stream of consciusness: this could take away some squees or other cards, but they are going to come back anyway. Can lower threashold a lot, remove wonder or anything else from the yard, maybe in response to Yawgmoth will. But it's not that great in the end.

suffocating blast: this is a card I've never played or seeing played. It is slow as hell maindeck, but taken with wish when mana is available could be good. I love 2x1 cards. Just be sure to not be forced to kill your critters. However if we need a counter we can maybe take a removed drain.. I'd like to run it (I like tech cards!) but we have no space left.

enlighted tutor: maindecked could take vial or landstill, both really important for the deck in the first turn. Later can also take swor. But I'm not sure it's worth it, give also the card disadvantage.

pyrostatic pillar: great sideboard card against storm based decks and hulk. We should already stay well against combo, however, and if we want to use it we need to dedicate a lot of sideboard slots. In some metamages could even be played maindeck, since we can cast our creatures through the vial after all.

Disrupting shoal: free counterspell is alway nice; differently from misdirection it is more reusable, and a valid counter in later game. However our BLUE mana curve have almost only 2cc speels and some 3cc ones. We can take care of null rods, drains, standstills, other nasty cards, but we do not have so much flexibility with it.

Testing the deck I've found that the main problem is the sorcery speed of our draw engine. In the early game we can't play standstill and keep mana open for drain or voidmages' ability. Intuition-AK could be an idea, but it takes a lot of slots, requires all the jewelry and do not have that great sinergy with vial. After all standstill make us draw 3 for 1U, and that potentially 4 times. Intuition+AK let us draw 3 for 3UU and only once unless we draw the other AK. AK and lavamancer to not work well togheter, but AK+lavamancer+cunning are an interesting possibility. Another idea would be running thirsts, in order to make good use of vials drawn in the later game and which are much less useful. By now the draw engine is my main concern.

[Tristal]

I think you overvalue Standstill in this deck.  You are simply not drawing into more threats.

I would imagine Dragon obliterates this deck.

[Malhavoc]

That's why I was thinking about putting tormod's crypt in the sideboard. It removes squee/dragon and that will help a lot. In fact the real problem is hampering his draw engine, that damn bazaar+squee. On the other hand I do not understand why you say standstill is not good enough: I can draw drain, force, cunning (for stifle, beb, StP) or mages. If I have a vial in play I can put into play a mage in response to his spell, naming some animate spell if it is a meddling, or having some sure counterspell if it is voidmage. Xantid swarm becomes not an issue, particularly if I can sweep it away with lavamancer. I'm not saying dragon is a good match, it's probably hard because of bazaars, that's why I'm talking about tormod, I'm just saying I don't see why you say standstill is not that good.

[Tristal]

My take on this deck is that it's an aggro-control deck that tries to be reactive, rather than proactive.  Flores' "Know your role" articles would find plenty of faults with this deck's control matchup - your beatdown is not going to outpace anyone's draw, especially when to disrupt them it takes away your beatdown resources.

Fish succeeds where this deck fails because it is much more proactive.  If you don't get a Vial on the board with two counters, you can't both cast a creature and have Drain mana up.  I think that's a problem.  Aggro-control decks like GAT work because they really only need to resolve the Dryad or the Tog.  You won't be single-handedly winning games just by dropping a Lavamancer.

[HuntedWumpus]

In my opinion Ninja Sword has two huge advantages over the deck that Malhavoc posted.

1. Malhavoc's deck is almost entirely reactive; while a deck like Ninja sword is far more proactive in its nature. That can be very important in the current state of the meta where decks like control slaver will dominate if no pressure is applied to their life totals and game state.

2. Ninja Sword's Creatures >>>>>>>>> Malhavoc's set. Now, while the creatures sets play a similar role in some respects Ninja sword uses creatures that are better suited to handle the current gauntlet in its entirety.

I would also like to point out Withered Wretch. He alone gives huge points to Ninja sword because of how strong he is against most of the format. If you have not yet played this guy in some form perhaps you don't appreciate the amount of power and potential there is in this little 2/2 beatstick, and all around pain in the ass. Graveyard hate is HUGE!

Personally I would like to see a bit of discussion on the evolution of Ninja Sword in the current format, and the future as a aggro-control contender.

[Malhavoc]

I've indeed found out that this deck is really vial dependent in order to be played the way it is intended. However I found out that can be played in other ways too. It really depends about the opponent you are facing. Against someone it can be acceptable to not leave mana open for drains, in order to cast a meddling or a standstill; against others it could be better to leave mana open for drains and if not used then maybe cast cunning at eot. However, even if stanstill it's awesome, I think this deck could gain a lot having

a) an instant-speed draw engine added to (or probably instead of) standstill.

Or

b) more free counterspells (but I do not feel like daze is a good choice without any sort of mana denial).

Taking the first path could let us keep drain in, making good use of the mana drained, or letting us use the open mana at the eot of our opponent casting instants. Taking the second path would let us keep standstill and would let us cast early mages/vial/standstill with more counterspells active, but it would probably force use to take out drains, which would mean taking out cunning too probably. Despite the deck name, this isn't necessary bad. I liked the sinergy between cunning and lavamancer and I like the answer-for-everything cunning wish, but this does not mean that they should be set in stone. What I really think it's the core of the deck are the 12 mages and the vials.

Talking about bad matches, I've noticed that Oath could be a strange match: if we manage to resolve a meddling we are really going to win, particularly if we end up vialing in a voidmage too. Oath simply can't get out of it. But if oath hits the table, it's bad bad bad. Looking at possible sideboard solutions, of course Gilded Drake came to my mind, as a possible add-on against other decks too (such as against darksteel colossus or sundering titan). However Gilded (even if played through Vial) is not a solution against Oath unless we manage to take Akroma. If the opponent oaths spirit and he's smart enough to swing with it only, we have no way out. Probably Waterfront Bouncer would be a better choice. However I've given a look at another solution, even if it doesn't seem to appealing: Temporal Adept ( http://magiccards.info/7e/en/103/ ). It's a mage, and so can be fed to voidmage if necessary. It can bounce anything (which means it's good against smokestacks, dragons, oath (yes, oath, not the creature oathed, which means that even running something like pristine angel wouldn't be useful for him)). And it does not even require discarding a card. Could even get a maindeck slot if not for a thing: it's slow as hell! It costs three (2 specific), and we would probably not set our vial over 2. And it activates with 3 (all specific). This means that it won't ever be active until turn three (if we have a mox in play) or four otherwise, while waterfront can be active turn 2-3, can be vialed, and leave use more mana open for other things.

About the sideboard, I've found out that's way better to leave more space for real sideboard cards, particularly 3-4 tormod crypts and 3-4 pyrostatic pillar. TPS isn't a bad matchup if it does not win fast the first 2 turns, and pillar is the best way to stop it the first turns.

[HuntedWumpus]

Hey,

I just want to sorta publicly say that if my above post sounds a little rude, its because it was out of place. I accidentally posted it here instead of this thread when I was posting yesterday afternoon. . .

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22784.0

 . . . Where referring Malhavoc by name was simply to make it clear in people's minds the lists i was comparing. I must have had a couple of windows open and screwed up. Sorry if offended you in any way. I could see how my post made seem rude in context here.

Actually, I moved the post to this thread. Sorry for not putting some red text in there to make that clear.
-Jacob

[CCClark]

Looks interesting enough to try.  My only comment until I try it is; I don't like the utter lack of search.   I can't stand going into topdeck mode.   First turn (just from looking at the list) seems to be lavamancer or Vial and then pray.  The synergy of vial and standstill is interesting though, but I don't like the dependancy.  Unless the entire deck is a combo, it's shaky making combos the deck depends on. 

Of course, I haven't tried it and cannot comment much other than what I would expect. 

[Malhavoc]

I've tried different draw engines, but there seems to be no one that really fits into the deck. However with some suggestions from other people and with some testing, I've ended up removing one tundra, one volcanic island and one wish for three brainstorms. This gives a bit manipulation, and raises the chance to draw a force, a drain, or a "vialable" voidmage after have popped a standstill.

With such a good amount of artifacts, and with 3 brainstorms I was now thinking about adding tinker->colossus too  ..but there seems to be no space in the deck for it anyway, and the lack of tutors (like mystical) for fetching the tinker make this option less nice anyway.

[Freelancer]

Did you try out thirst or knowledge? There are plenty of artifacts in here (9). Although you don't have anything to abuse it like CS it is a solid drawer on its own.
Although not as a 4-off, you could cut the standstills add in 3x thirst and the last brainstorm.

And how about memory mask or SoFI? Both are good to dump mana into and you have enough critters to fuel them.



Just some random thoughts, I hope it helps.

[Malhavoc]

Did you try out thirst or knowledge? There are plenty of artifacts in here (9). Although you don't have anything to abuse it like CS it is a solid drawer on its own.
Although not as a 4-off, you could cut the standstills add in 3x thirst and the last brainstorm.

And how about memory mask or SoFI? Both are good to dump mana into and you have enough critters to fuel them.

Just some random thoughts, I hope it helps.

I've also tried intuition+AK, put it takes too much slot and AK and lavamancer have a terrible sinenery (though intuition and lavamancer are not that bad together). Have tried thirst too, despite the artifact number, there is only one artifact every 6 cards, and apart from lavamancer I gain no advantage from discarded cards. 50% is a draw 3, discard 1; 50% is a draw 3, discard 2. Not so great, but it gives some use to a later game vial, which is otherwise quite useless. Unfortunately, the card reveals too be a bit too slow for this deck, which, despite the drains, is only half powered.

[Freelancer]

Well your only missing 2 moxen and gained 4x vial (although ideally you want this in play) and you aren't counting on brainstorm which lets you see 3 more cards and effectively lets you find that artifact you need. You aren't counting the cards you draw the regular way either, so the chance isn't 50-50 but more like 70-30 (approximation).


And the equipments? I know this deck isn't ninja sword, but it does have the same feeling (critters-vial-drain). So maybe its worth testing out a few equipments like jitte, SoFI or memory mask.

[CCClark]

Now that I look at it more, I keep thinking a nice lil engine that doesn't take up much space would be Ninja of the deep hours.  He's basically a cheap phid in here, plus he can reset a meddling mage to a different card in a pinch.  Since you can't afford the slots, that was the best one I could come up with.   Only thing I don't like about the idea is attacking with any of those creatures in the first place.  Then again, creatures are pretty rare in type 1 anyway short of welders that come out as fast and not many people would block with their welder. 

Edit:  Noticed the Ninja sword post later on.  Oops.  Guess we all think alike. 

[Malhavoc]

And the equipments? I know this deck isn't ninja sword, but it does have the same feeling (critters-vial-drain). So maybe its worth testing out a few equipments like jitte, SoFI or memory mask.

I do not want to run too much equipments, first of all because tapping out to cast them isn't so sweet. You often prefer to remain untapped to keep mana for drains or voidmage. The SoFI however is so powerful that really earned its way in through testing. Memory mask isn't as good as the sword: it's a bit faster and let you see more cards, but does not give additional P/T (REALLY useful against aggro), and neither it gives protection against fire/ice or bounce (meddling mage with SoFI can be a nightmare even for a prepared combo who is unable to bounce it easily) or targeted damage. If I were going to find more space for equipments, it would be SoFI or Jitte. Jitte however, despite being really strong, goes under null rod even if already equipped. Since the deck is already quite vulnerable to rod (vial, a still not equipped SoFI, jewelry) I would prefer to make this vulnerability even worst. The good side of Jitte, however, is that the damage does not have to be done to the opponent, but works even when done against a creture, which is really useful in a deck like this missing good evasive creatures.

@CCClark: Ninja of the deep hours is a good idea, I've tested it a bit but did not convinced me entirely. It is nice with meddling, and almost with every creature since you can usually put the bounced wizard back into play immediately with vial. However you first need to have an unblocked creature. This usually in T1 is not a great concern, but when you're facing some aggro it becomes quite a problem. I would prefer a draw engine that gives me cards also when I'm not in a good position. As you noticed, you are not always going to attack every turn with all your cretures: sometimes you'll wait for the lavamancer to sweep away some defenders before attacking. In all those turns, Ninja will be just a 2/2 creature for 4.

[And11]

I read this post three weeks ago and really got inspired. I somehow found the Drains (this AND Voidmage is wrong IMO), Wishes (hate to pack my sb with narrow cards) and Factories (bad synergy with Drain + Kai) dissapointing and decided to make a new build of "Vial Wiz". I have always loved manadenial and chose Wasteland and Mox Monkey to support this strategy. I also switched drawengine since I only found Standstill good when you're already winning or in a good board position at least. Maybe it has something to do with my Factoty-less version? (: In the place of Standstill I now play Curiosity (I've tried both at the same time).

You might be wondering why I don't play the Ninja in stead, but I'm not impressed with turn 1 Daze and then get stuck with Ninja where I could've played Curiosity on my dude (I can't rely on drawing one of my 3 MoxeN).
 
I'm actually taking this deck to Paris... thx for being my inspiration source number one (:

4x Æther Vial (Key card)

4x Grim Lavamancer (Welders, evasion with Curiosity)
4x Meddling Mage (Sweet disruption)
4x Voidmage Prodigy (Powerful control tool + beatz)
4x Gorilla Shaman (Mana denial)

4x Curiosity (draw)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

4x Force of Will
3x Daze (Used to be Standstill)
4x Swords to Plowshares (Exalted/DSC etc.)
4x Wasteland (denial)
1x Strip Mine

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
4x Volcanic Island

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Lotus Petal

Sideboard: 15
2x Sacred Ground (Mirror, CoW, Smokestack)
1x Balance (aggro)
3x Fire/Ice ("mirror")
3x Orim's Chant (Tendrils)
3x Rack and Ruin (Workshop)
3x Red Elemental Blast (Drain)

[Malhavoc]

You are going into another direction, which is not necessary bad, of course. However I fear that curiosity could be risky without a good amount of evasive creatures. You could try running also some Fireslingers, which shot and are able to always give you cards through curiosity (and are wizards!). Without mana drain, I'm with you about the decision to remove wishes too. However this way you are really vulnerable (pre sideboard) to big artifacts (where mox monkey isn't enough), evil artifact creatures, and enchantments (first of all: oath). Do not believe that swords are enough against oath: they arent'. Firt of all because you must succed resolving two of them, and second because post side you'll bump into big untargettable creatures.

As a final note on the deck, I would think twice about that mana base: it's really fragile. You need at least a couple of basic island to fetch.

About the side: do not run orim's chant. Against storm based decks pyrostatic pillar is much more useful, and it's a good card against Hulk too. You also lack some sort of graveyard hate. I suggest 2-3 tormod crypts.

[And11]

I guess I could add an Island instead of either a fetch or the Petal. I HAVE been there and never liked fetching the lone Island instead of getting colored mana (Volc and Tundra). In 90% of the time my opponent wastes my first land, it's a greater sitback for them than me. But it might be worth it, I'll replace the Strand with a basic Island.

I'm definitely going to replace the Chant's and 1x ReB with the Pillar's you suggested (since they are not only effective against combo, but also against Hulk and 3/4cC) and I'll think hard about the Crypt's.

Thx a lot.

[Bouli]

YOu should pu azami, lady of scroll to draw some cards..... 

You should read the TMD rules here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=18027.0
A one-line suggestion that includes a terrible card, multiple typos, ellipses instead of a period, and three smileys is spam, because it wastes everyone's time without contributing to the discussion. Don't do it again.
-Jacob

[crazynlazy]

@and11 you will probably need more than one island since some people were talking about playing mono blue which would'nt be good news for you. I would cut some of the duals maybe one of each since they won't be that hard to find with all the fetches you're running. Maybe if you wanted you could cut the petal too. I would add the fourth daze too.

In this deck you may want some fliers in there so that curiousity is more useful. and Jacob said everything that needs to be said about azami.