Dark Angel

[asmoranomardicodais]

I made this along time ago when I realized that their was a Selenia, Dark Angel, but no dark angel.

Dark Angel
2BW
Flying
Whenever Dark Angel deals combat damage to an opponent, look at their hand and choose a non-creature, non-land card from it. That player discards that card.
Pay 2 Life: Return Dark Angel to owner's hand
3/2

Is it overpowered, underpowered, or just worthless? Tell me what you think

Current Wording:
Dark Angel
1WBU
Creature-Angel
3/3
Flying, Vigilance
Whenever Dark Angel deals combat damge a player, you may pay B. If you do, that player reveals their hand. Choose a non-creature, non-land card from it. That player discards that card.
U: Return Dark Angel to owner's hand

[asmoranomardicodais]

Oops, didn't realize I was in the wrong part of the forum. Sorry about that. Please move this to the main card creation forum please.

[Nibble]

It seems a bit overpowered to me, but not by too much. [card]Abyssal Specter[/card] is easily the closest comparison, at 2BB for a 2/3 flier with opponent's-choice discard. For 2BW, you want a 3/2 flier with your choice of discard, as well as a self-bounce ability? It might be doable at 2/2, or 3BW, though honestly I wouldn't want to see it cost anymore.

Also, I think it needs a bit more reason to be White. It's basically another Specter (purely Black), plus a life-payment activated ability, also Black. The effect of the ability is occasionally seen in White, but more often Blue.

[Godder]

Also, this is too small to be Angel. It could be a Specter, as noted, and made mono-Black, although return it to its owner's hand should probably then be replaced with Regeneration.

[Ephraim]

Especially if it's going to be monoblack, then this needs to be better balanced. As it is, it's almost strictly better than Abyssal Specter. Even if it's going to be rare, it needs to be toned down a lot. In truth, even if this were identical to Abyssal Specter, except for the triggered ability, being rare would be insufficient balance. If this is going to be a specter, it almost certainly has to have flying, so that won't really serve as a method of weakening it. Its power and toughness can't really be lower than 2/2, looking at other specters, so that's a start, but insufficient.

Of course, now that I look closely at existing specters, this card is drawing nearer and nearer in execution and appearance to [card]Doomsday Specter[/card]. Perhaps it would be better to pursue a slightly different avenue for this card.

[asmoranomardicodais]

The pay 2 life ability was taken from Selenia, Dark Angel, who was also white/black. And she was only a 3/3, so its not really too small to be an angel.

On the other hand, I see people's point about it being a specter in most respects. I'm trying to think of anything that would make it more angel-like, but I have no ideas.

Also, maybe pay life for it's discard ability, or change the ability to only target creatures? Does any of that sound appealing?

[Nova442]

How many angels have power > toughness?  I always thought they were defensive in nature.  Although I guess it could be ok for one card, this is an evil angel after all.

The card is a little overpowered as it stands.

vs. Selenia:
+ lower mana cost
+ extra discard ability

- one less toughness

vs. Doomsday spectre:
+no gating/drawback
+3/2 vs. 2/3
+self protection, which makes its lower toughness irrelevant.

-limited discard ability

Verdict on both:  This is easily stronger than either.  Doomsday specter I remember being pretty strong back in the day.

I think this really is a specter too, considering the size and ability.  I'd probably drop the power to 2 to start, toughness won't matter much with the return to hand ability.  After that you're in the neighborhood of printable.  White/black has traditionally been an extremely weak color combination, on par with red/white :-/  That's practically a drawback in itself.  If that's still a little too strong you could change the discard ability to creatures only like you suggested.  Keep the discussion going, it's your card tell us where you want to take it

[Godder]

The pay 2 life ability was taken from Selenia, Dark Angel, who was also white/black. And she was only a 3/3, so its not really too small to be an angel.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr129
R&D agree with 3/3 (although they suggest 4/4 or bigger where possible), but 3/2 is too small, so you might want to consider making it a 3/3 for 3BW or even a 4/4 for 4BW, particularly with a selective discard ability, which is actually pretty powerful, particularly if you get a few hits in. Also, Selenia was Legendary, so that allowed R&D to bend the rules a little as well when they created her. Alternatively, make it mono-Black, and a Specter.

Where do you want to take this, anyway? Is it crucial it be an Angel? If yes, is it crucial that it retains its abilities as is?

[asmoranomardicodais]

Flavor-wise, I want the card to remain low cost, and preferably an angel. The problem with five mana cost is that the ability becomes irrevelant, since they probably won't have much cards in their hand anyway. Also, since this is supposed to be a smaller Selenia flavor wise, I would rather it be a 2/1 than a 3/3.

Actually, I just hand an idea:

Dark Angel
2WB
Flying
Whenever Dark Angel deals combat damage to an opponent, reveal your hand to your opponent and the opponent reveals their hand to you. You each choose a card from that hand. Each player discards that card. Ignore this ability if you have no cards in hand.
Pay 3 Life: Return Dark Angel to owner's hand.
2/1

I dunno, does that make the card better? Black excels at discard, and white is good at even effects, so that makes the card in flavor for WB. Even with that ability, is the card too powerful?

[Ephraim]

I'd say it's actually pretty weak. You're going to lose on the ability about as often as you win with it. Also, this card simply isn't angelic. The MaRo article linked above makes it clear that they don't really print angels that are smaller than 3/3. Obviously, the rules can be broken, but not without a good reason -- and I don't think this card has a good reason, at the moment.

[Godder]

Even at 4 mana, it's not like anyone plays Abyssal Specter either, and he's pretty much strictly better than this. The version most recently suggested is weak, as Ephraim mentioned, so it really needs powering up.

How about:

Dark Angel
{W}{U}{B}
Creature – Angel
3/3
Flying
Whenever Dark Angel deals combat damage to a player, you may pay . If you do, that player reveals his or her hand. Choose a non-land, non-creature card from it. That player discards that card.
: Return Dark Angel to its owner's hand.

Edit: Fixed language error.

[asmoranomardicodais]

I like that version a lot. I'm going to show that suggestion as the most current wording.

[Godder]

A couple of minor points: The current version really shouldn't have ~this~ in it, unless you're rethinking the name (I notice that there's no name, so that could be by design, of course), and you also need the type line (Creature – Angel) below the mana cost.

Next up: flavour text .

[Ephraim]

Truth be told, aside from the token inclusion of white to make this feel like an angel, I really don't see what white contributes to this card. It still feels like it should be a pure blue/black creature, like Doomsday Specter. Sure, the extra colour serves as a severe drawback, which can keep this card's converted mana cost down, but it just doesn't feel appropriate for this card. My suggestion -- if you really want to keep the Ostracize-style discard (which is admittedly weaker than Doomsday Specter's discard ability), make this a specter. It should be U/B and patterned first after Doomsday Specter. Lower power and/or toughness, more appropriate mana cost for the abilities (although its discard ability is worse than Doomsday Specter's, it doesn't gate and it has a self-bounce ability), and an overhaul in flavour are needed here. I know it's easy to get attached to a favourite card idea, but this is not an angel. It's a specter. Either give it more angelic qualities (and get blue out of there, for crying out loud!) or call a spade a spade.

[Godder]

I don't know that Lightning Angel ever had any true use for Blue, except to allow it cost less than it otherwise would have. One could add Vigilance if you really want a use for White...

[asmoranomardicodais]

But would it be too strong with vigilance? If it is, I may just have to give in and make it a specter.

[Godder]

Compare it to Lightning Angel, which was 3/4 Flying, Vigilance, Haste for a CMC of 4.

The abilities on Dark Angel are stronger than Haste and +1 toughness, but they cost mana. You could increase the activation costs a bit, which would probably help. What do others think? If it were to be kept in its current form (i.e. same P/T, CMC, flying, vigilance), how much would the abilities have to cost to make the card fair? Adding life costs to the mana costs is also viable, since we're talking Black here.

[brianb]

if you downgrade the discard from duress-style to random, that takes the power down a bit.  Not much though--by the time the angel gets online, their hand will probably be mostly empty anyway.

Also if you make the vigilance activated (pay W for a turn) instead of free, that makes it a bit weaker as well as adding a certain symmetry amongst the colors and abilities.

[Ephraim]

Okay -- if this were to cost and have three abilities:

: ~This~ gains vigilance...
: ~This~ gains flying...
Whenever this deals combat damage to a player, you may pay ...

That, I think would be an interesting take on this particular three-colour combination. I would then even approve giving this the creature type "Angel Specter" or something equally wacky. All three colours are being well-used in this rendition and the mana cost still justifies a 3/3 creature, since without paying mana, this is nothing more than a Hill Giant.

[Matt]

Id' like it if the black ability weren't like eight times the length of the other two.

[asmoranomardicodais]

How 'bout this:

Dark Angel
1WBU
Creature-Angel
3/3
Flying
Whenever Dark Angel deals combat damge a player, you may pay B. If you do, that player reveals their hand. Choose a non-creature, non-land card from it. That player discards that card.
U: Return Dark Angel to owner's hand
W: Dark Angel vigilance until end of turn