[Deck] Fun with Chains, the rewrite

[Brujah-99]

I'm trying this again with more content. 
The basic goal of this deck is to quickly get a chains of mephistopholese and a megrim in to play, and then play a draw 7 optimally causing 26 damage (except for time twister which is only 12).   I also try to utilize tutor and drawing effects that do not include actually drawing cards to avoid the effects of the chains myself as much as possible. 

Threats
3x Chains of Mephistopholes
4x Megrim
4x Hypnotic Specter
1x Grinning Demon
1x Underworld Dreams

Draw/Tutor
1x Time Twister
1x Wheel and deal
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Intuition
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Scroll Rack
1x Windfall
1x Fact or Fiction

Control Effects
2x Wrath of God
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance
2x Arcane Denial
2x Vindicate
1x Mind Twist

Misc
1x Zuran Orb
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will


Mana Sources
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Saphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Scrubland
1x Plateau
3x Badlands

Under the advise of the poster in my previous attempt at this thread I'm considering the following updates:
-2 Arcane Denial
+2 Chalice of the Void
My concern here is that if I set the Chalice at 0 or 2 (which would be the most common choices for the decks I play against) is that I'll either end up screwing my own acceleration possiblities, or slowing down my kill by having to play multiple draw 7's with no chains in play, on the other hand, there's really no point in only having two counter spells in the deck.

-4 Hypnotic Specter
+4 Duress/ Cabal Therapy
I like the consistant 2 ~ 4 damage the hippie provides, but I think one of these two will help me get around counter spells more efficently.

-1 Underworld Dreams
+1 Chains of Mephistopholese
While the deck generally doesn't want for black mana, I think the 4th chains will just add more consistancy to what I'm trying to do

-1 Intuition
+1 Mystical Tutor / Merchant Scroll
The deck doesn't run enough grave yard manipulation for me to let my opponents pull things out of my deck for me.

-1 grinning demon
+1 ?
I haven't really decided what I should replace this guy with yet.  I like the option of having an alternate win condition, but I'm not sure what yet.  I may just replace him with my mox emerald for additional acceleration

-1 Wheel of Fortune (and the land that provides red)
+1 Wheel and Deal (and more blue sources)
Again this goes to constancy in the deck cutting it down to only 3 colors.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[A Black Lotus Buddy]

What does this deck have that other fast control decks don't?  A slow, easy to stop win condition, I guess.  On the plus side, it has a great game against UG Madness :lol:

[Marton]

personally i almost stopped reading the deck list as soon as I saw the 2nd listed card (4x Megrim). Then I saw that the entire deck was composed of extremely bad cards, so I decided I should at least indicate the cards that have no good reason to be played in type-1.

Threats
3x Chains of Mephistopheles - this is a good card in the right deck
4x Megrim - this is card disadvantage and its casting cost is too high for an irrelevant effect in type-1
4x Hypnotic Specter - By the time you get to turn 3, you probably died. Even so, the effect is rather subpar compared to cards with similar casting costs (think here: intuition, tinker, etc). In addition, discarding cards to your opponent may well make him happy, particularly if he plays welders.
1x Grinning Demon -
1x Underworld Dreams -

Draw/Tutor
1x Time Twister - why? This will kill you just as much as your opponent if you play it with a chains of mephistopheles. I understand that you play it with megrim, but it doesn't change the fact that megrim shouldnt be there and consequently there is no justification for the inclusion of this card in your deck.
1x Wheel and deal -
1x Ancestral Recall - this is doubly good as you can do it on your opponent too when a chains of mephistopheles in in play.
1x Memory Jar - By turn 5, you died. Play only if you can accelerate it quick into play.
1x Wheel of Fortune - debatable. doesn't work with chains of mephistopheles.
1x Vampiric Tutor - what restricted card you need sooooo badly to draw? There is none. Play draw cards instead of tutors if you aim to search for a non-restricted cards.
1x Enlightened Tutor - see vampiric tutor
1x Intuition - Please, tell me what you will play this on?
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Scroll Rack -
1x Windfall - see wheel of fortune. this is worse.
1x Fact or Fiction - can you play this fast enough?

Control Effects
2x Wrath of God - please tell me: who plays creatures in type-1? Usually your opponent will only play one creature at a time, and that creature will almost invariably cost less than 4 mana.
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance
2x Arcane Denial - this is card disadvantage -2. It's almost as bad as having your opponent play a ancestral recall on himself.. Yes it's good IF you have a chains of mephistopheles in play, but even so I am not entirely sure you will want to play this when you have 2 chains of mephistopheles into play, since you WILL HAVE TO DRAW that card, which will result in discarding 2 cards since chains of mephistopheles are cumulative.
2x Vindicate - this is seriously very slow. versatility is nice, but at the cost of speed (tempo). You should have a good reason to play this since its cost is very high.
1x Mind Twist - please give us a good reason to play this? At which turn do you usually play it? How many cards does it makes your opponent discard? Your deck doesnt have enough accelerants to make it matter, resulting in only hoping to play this turn 2+, after which your opponent is likely to have executed a good part of his game plan and totally ignore the mind twist. You see, mind twist is bad if you cant deal with what your opponent has on the board. your deck is simply too slow for that

Misc
1x Zuran Orb - If your deck is good enough, you should use your life as a ressource since you can use 19 of them and it won't affect the game at all. All you have to take care of is not hitting 0. Gaining life is a poor strategy against almost every single deck in vintage. This card is bad against combo because they will kill you before you have any kind of relevant amount of lands into play; it's bad against control because this is card disadvantage; it's bad against aggro because it doesn't deal with your opponent's threat.
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will - please tell me, which cards will you play back from your graveyard? All i see is tutors for unrestricted cards.


Mana Sources
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Scrubland - I am amazed to see a t-1 deck that can play this.
1x Plateau -
3x Badlands - (

[Luiggi]

I'm not sure how good the deck is, but any deck running Hippies, Megrim, Underworld Dreams, etc. is begging for 4 Dark Rituals, since that speeds it up so much. You should probably also be running Duress in addition to the Hippies, not instead of. Hope this decks works out for you, .

Luiggi

[Brujah-99]

Thanks for the replies every one.  As Marton pointed out the deck is in some serious need of editing (which is why I posted it here for the fine users of the mana drain  ).  Here are some answers to Marton's questions:
Scroll Rack:  Allows me to dig for cards with out getting hit by the chains
Enlightened / Vampiric / Mystical Tutors: Again, these are used to work around the chains as opposed to brain storm or Thirst for Knowledge, although looking at it I could use impluse instead
Wheel and Deal/ Wheel of Fortune/ Windfall: The opponent generally takes 14, or leaves them with 1 card in hand
Yawgmoth's Will: When I orginally started building this deck I was playing with 4x Dark Ritual and only Wheel of Fortune and Memory jar as the draw 7's and allowed me to re use some of those resources
Zuran Orb:  Really only here because it can be used together with Balance, it could definitely be cut
Underworld dreams/ grinning demon/ intution/Time Twister: These all fall under the seemed like a good idea at the time category    and are set to be cut
Wrath of God: This has worked very well for me in my area, but as Marton pointed out, creatures are not prevelant in type one and should be changed for some thing else.

Again thanks for the replies, and any other comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

[KDenz81]

Chains of Mephistopheles is an incredible card that many people either over look, or don't know about.  It is highly complex, and to use it effectively in a deck can create effects of a "soft lock". 

Anvil of Bogardan + CoM. 

Your opponent draws a card for their turn.  Anvil triggers, which in turn triggers CoM.  Your opponent has to discard a card to draw their next card.  Then, after drawing their card, your opponent must discard yet another card to the Anvil. 

Most of the draw 7's affect you as well as your opponent, except Wheel and Deal.  Granted most people overlook it because it gives your opponent card advantage.  In this sort of deck Wheel and Deal is exeptional and I'll tell you why. 

Wheel and Deal + CoM.

During your opponent's draw step cast Wheel and Deal, it is an instant, might as well use it like one.  Your opponent has to discard whatever hand they have left and then mill 7 cards.  You are forced to draw 1 card. 

Dreams is a great idea, however it costs 3 black, run 1 at most.  Megrim is ok keep 1 in the deck.  The Rack is what you want to run.  Once you've killed your opponent's ability to draw cards you inflict plenty of damage upon them with The Rack.  Rack goes off on their upkeep before they even draw, so if your opponent is stuck with one or no cards in hand thanks to Chains then they take 2 or 3 every turn.

Gifts Ungiven + Lim Dul's Vault - This is your draw engine.  Gifts practically gives you the pieces of the combo that you need, where Vaul helps you dig for it and put it ontop of your library for a price.  Life is a resourse, use it.

Disruption and Utility: Every deck needs it, every deck uses it.  Time Walk, Duress, Force Will, Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Yawg Will, etc...


This is my deck, though I have yet to come up with a good name for it.

Combo

3X Chains of Mephistopheles
4X Wheel and Deal
3X Anvil of Bogardan
2X The Rack
1X Words of War
1X Underworld Dreams
1X Megrim

Utility

1X Tinker
1X Time Walk
1X Yawgmoth's Will
1X Demonic Tutor

Draw

2X Gifts Ungiven
2X Lim Dul's Vault
1X Fact or Ficiton
1X Ancestral Recall

Disruption

4X Force of Will
4X Duress
4X Counterspell

Mana Sources

2X Dark Ritual
1X Sol Ring
1X Mox Sapphire
1X Mox Jet
1X Mox Ruby
1X Lotus Petal
1X Black Lotus
1X Mana Crypt

Land

4X Underground Sea
4X Polluted Delta
2X Badlands
2X Swamp
2X Island

Side Board

3X Sirocco
2X Lightning Bolt
2X Rack and Ruin
2X Red Elemental Blast
2X Planar Void
2X Stifle
2X Vedalken Orrery


Tell me what you think, and help me come up with a name.
Denz

[Morganti]

Chains of Mephistopheles is an incredible card that many people either over look, or don't know about.  It is highly complex, and to use it effectively in a deck can create effects of a "soft lock". 

Anvil of Bogardan + CoM. 

Your opponent draws a card for their turn.  Anvil triggers, which in turn triggers CoM.  Your opponent has to discard a card to draw their next card.  Then, after drawing their card, your opponent must discard yet another card to the Anvil. 

Here is what happens

Drawstep
Furst Card Drawn.
Anvil triggers
forcing a draw, which is replaced by Chains Discard.
then it forces a discard, which is replaced by Chains Draw.

draw 2 discard 1 that is the end result of those two cards. 
just thought i would point that out.

~D~

[KDenz81]

Jacob Orlove wrote

Here's what chains does, assuming no other draw-replacement effects are around.

Every time you would draw a card, check: is this a draw phase? If yes, check: is this the first card I am drawing in this draw phase? If yes, just draw the card. Note that it does NOT need to be *your* draw phase.

If you answered "no" to one of those questions, check: do you have at least one card in your hand? If yes, discard a card, then draw your card. If no, mill for one. In other words, if you have at least one card in-hand, Chains turns regular draws into Compulsions.

Drawing multiple cards is just drawing one card several times in a row.

Multiple chains gets more complicated. Search the archives of this forum for some excellent summaries.

1: My opponent draws a card for the turn, takes a point from Dreams.
2: My opponent discards a card due to Chains, from being forced to draw an additional card from Anvil.  They take 2 from Megrim
3: My opponent then draws their additional card and takes a point from Dreams.
4: My opponent discards a card due to Anvil and takes 2 from Megirm.

It's +1 card for turn, -1 card for chains, +1 card for anvil, -1 card for anvil.  They don't net any card advantage Morganti.  This is a "soft lock" on the game.  The only thing your opponent can do is play instants.

This issue was already discussed in the rules forums when I initially asked about how Chains works.

[freakish777]

If anyone is going to run this thing (which I heavily recommend not to), DON'T use wheel and deel... just use Winds of Change.  Megrim and Underworld Dreams are also pointless and far too expensive.  The Rack is far superior. 

The general idea is something like this.

Turn One:    Ritual -> Duress + Chains.
Turn Two:   Anvil.
Turn Three: Grim Lavamancer + Winds of Change

They now have no hand, will only be able to play with instants to try and remove Chains or Anvil, and are taking 5 damage a turn (maybe more if you run into a Lightning Bolt).

In all seriousness, this deck is horrible.  And if you do run it, you need Lavamancer/Lava Dart/Lightning Bolt to take care of Welder.