Elephant Stampede

[TheWellknownBrownie]

This actually just came about because I wondered what a spell that had XXX in it's cost would do. I was also thinking about 4/4's for XXXGG, but for flavor reasons I like this better.


Elephant Stampede
XXXG
Instant
Put X 3/3 Elephant Tokens with Trample into play


Current Version

Elephant Stampede
XXXG
Sorcery
Put X 3/3 green Elephant Tokens into play.
The thunderous footfalls of the herd kick up dust, a warning stormcloud. The charge of the herd is the lightning.
Uncommon

[PossessedAven]

Reminds me a lot of Elephant Ambush - except you nix the flashback and give it more splashability.  Seems a bit to ungreen to be giving out trample for less than GG in the casting cost.

[brianb]

Also, it might be best to leave off trample just because it would be more compatible with other 3/3 elephant tokens.  If you left it off, then you just have a hill giant that can be doubled for 7 and tripled for 10.  That's pretty fair.  It's a bit weaker than call of the herd that let you break up the 7cc to get the two elephants, but that's ok.  Don't forget to make the elephants green.

[MrZuccinniHead]

couldn't this be costed at XXGG based on Decree of Justice?

[fattzzach]

At xxgg you could pay a cost of 6 for two 3/3s. Thats a bit cheap i think, also it would be really good in limeted.

[Jacob Orlove]

I like the XXXG version, just because it's a fair card that does something new. I agree that trample doesn't belong, though.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

Removed Trample, which allowed me to put it at Uncommon and not feel it would screw up Limited, and gave it experimental flavor text.

[Sanity_XIV]

Just a thought for the flavour text. Make the second sentence have the same structure as the first, because the second sentence seems awkward.

Maybe something like: The crash of the herd stirs nearby bids from their roosts, a bolt of lightning.

Or maybe not.

[Anusien]

I like it, but I feel somewhat awkward about having an Instant creature creator in Green.

[Jacob Orlove]

Whoa, I totally missed that this was an instant. It definitely feels like a sorcery.

[brianb]

simian grunts....  XXX feels like a sorcery, but in terms of play balance, it could be instant I think.  4 mana minimum makes it an expensive combat trick.

[Toad]

I see nothing wrong with this being an Instant. See [card]Elephant Ambush[/card], for an already existing example of instant speed token card.
The casting cost of XXXG seems pretty balanced considering Elephant Ambush and Call of the Herd.

[Ephraim]

This gets two elephants into play far more cheaply than Elephant Ambush does. (7 mana versus 12.) Heck -- this gets three elephants into play more cheaply than Elephant Ambush does. Of course, if you can generate that kind of mana, it begs the question, "Why haven't you won yet?" but we'll ignore that for the moment. Really the ability to generate that many large creature tokens at once really does feel like a sorcery ability.

[Toad]

Elephant Ambush is a rather bad card on its own. It saw play in T2 for a while during the INV/ODY era, as a win condition for Cunning Wake decks. 6G at once for 2 Elephant tokens seems rather bad for me, even in T2 or Block. The current token generator of choice, Beacon of Creation, will often net you more attacking power by the time you can Stampede for X=2.

[card]Beast Attack[/card] could also be used as a benchmark for Stampede. For 2GGG+2GGG next turn (that is 1 more mana than X=2 spread over two turns), you get 2 4/4 tokens. Also see [card]Hunting Pack[/card], which will give you 2 4/4 for the same price of 2 3/3 with Stampede if opponent played a spell this turn. With a far bigger potential thanks to Storm.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

You're right that those are probably better cards.



....

...


And?

[Nibble]

[card]Beast Attack[/card] could also be used as a benchmark for Stampede. For 2GGG+2GGG next turn (that is 1 more mana than X=2 spread over two turns), you get 2 4/4 tokens.

Your math's a little off here - 2GGG+2GGG is 10 mana, six of which is green. Two Elephants would run you 6G - seven mana, only one green. So, three less overall, although it does indeed have to be at once, but a hugely lower colored investment. Getting 3/3s instead of 4/4 seems about right in exchange.

As for Hunting Pack, uh... Storm is broken, end of story? Sadly, that's all I got. Thanks a lot, Storm.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

While slightly out of flavor for it to be an Instant over a Sorcery, it was mainly for power reasons. At a Sorcery, I feel the spell would be very unplayable outside of Limited. Making it a Sorcery really warrants switching to the XXXGG version that produces 4/4's.

[Matt]

Elephants are pretty much defined to be 3/3s in Magic, though.

[Ephraim]

And an XXXG Sorcery is not unplayable. I'd put it above the curve for generating a relatively large number of elephants. Anyhow, not every card can or should be playable in constructed formats. This effect definitely feels big, which alone merits this being a sorcery. I think that a lot of casual players (spare me the hissing and spitting if you don't care about casual players) would really enjoy this card as a sorcery, whether it were playable in tournament formats or not.

[Matt]

Also, Elephant Stampedes aren't really, you know, a surprise. You usually can see an elephant coming from a bit away.

[Summit]

@ Ephraim

And an XXXG Sorcery is not unplayable. I'd put it above the curve for generating a relatively large number of elephants. Anyhow, not every card can or should be playable in constructed formats. This effect definitely feels big, which alone merits this being a sorcery. I think that a lot of casual players (spare me the hissing and spitting if you don't care about casual players) would really enjoy this card as a sorcery, whether it were playable in tournament formats or not.

I was against you through most of this post until you pointed this out.  It would still be played in limited (not a very high pick of course) but casual players and beginners would really like it.  It is certainly a Timmy card and I think the consensus wants to change it into more of a spike card.

@ Matt

Also, Elephant Stampedes aren't really, you know, a surprise. You usually can see an elephant coming from a bit away.

This too, is a very good point.  Not to mention the noise!

Just my two cents, which I really just borrowed from Matt and Ephraim

[TheWellknownBrownie]

And an XXXG Sorcery is not unplayable. I'd put it above the curve for generating a relatively large number of elephants. Anyhow, not every card can or should be playable in constructed formats. This effect definitely feels big, which alone merits this being a sorcery. I think that a lot of casual players (spare me the hissing and spitting if you don't care about casual players) would really enjoy this card as a sorcery, whether it were playable in tournament formats or not.

Hissing and spitting? Where did this come from? Have I been unreasonable? Did I throw my computer across the room and shout, "No! No! I fuckin hate multiplayer! Die!!" when I wasn't looking? Either way the card is going to be for casual games, but there's a difference between the level of casual where Rith and Verdeloth are the best two-card-combo in the game, and the level where Craw Wurm with Invisibility on it is unbeatable. I prefer making cards for the players that have chosen to remain casual, than for the ones that play casually beause it's all they know.


Hard to argue with Matt's point, though. Changed.

[Ephraim]

I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that you'd been poorly behaved. I just know that a lot of people tend to hiss and spit when casual is brought up, simply because they don't think it matters.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

Hmmm. I guess that's true, and I can understand that it's annoying that some people think that way. I personally have no problem with casual, though; Hell, one of my favorite cards of all time is still Fallen Angel. My earlier point is still true, though; I much prefer playing and designing for the "We love overcosted, inefficent fatties and janky rares" crowd, than the "All I own is 8th Edition commons and uncommons" crowd.

[Ephraim]

I think it's important not to miss, however, that this card just gets more and more efficient as you build mana. The first elephant is 4 mana, which is a little bit under the curve for green, but two elephants cost 3.5 each and so on. As you approach infinite elephants, the cost of each elephant approaches 3, which is right on the curve, except that they're coming from a spell that can generate an arbitrarily large number of elephants. It's like Taste of Paradise -- although it is not strictly better than Stream of Life, it does get more and more efficient the more mana you pump into it (although it's blown out of the water by cards like Nourish, just because life gain has been determined to be weak.) This will never actually beat Trained Armodon's efficiency, but it will yield results that are nearly as efficient, but much, much more powerful.

[TheWellknownBrownie]

I think I've come around to agree that the current version is the best of all worlds.


Any last thoughts before 24 hour clock?

[Godder]

At 4 and 7 mana, Call of the Herd is mostly better, and at 10 mana, Crush of Wurms is better. Sounds perfectly fair to me .

[asmoranomardicodais]

I think the elephants should have trample. (But this is hardly a huge point, and if your fine with the card and would rather not listen to me being contrary, go right ahead)

[TheWellknownBrownie]

I do too, actually, but I'll go with the fact that it's hard to remember that tokens have trample, especially as other Elephant Tokens don't.

[Matt]

If the other elephant tokens had it, then this should too. But they don't, so this shouldn't.