Brainstorm Question.

[yankeedave]

Okay, so I may be stupid, but when in the best time to play Brainstorm, when you are using shuffle effects such as fetchlands, etc?

For example, in my U/W control deck, I may have a opening hand of Flooded Strand, Brainstorm, Tundra, FoW, Mana Drain, Exalted Angel, StoP, and I am playing the first game of best of 3, and I am going first. What order should I play my cards in? And can anyone give me any other examples of good or bad times they have used Brainstorm and what they would / wouldn't change next time?

Thanks Everyone!

[DeadHead]

The way I would play it:

1) Play tundra
2) Pass the turn
3) Does the opponents plays a Welder / any other dangerous creature ? --> StP it.
4) If he doesnt, Brainstorm in the at end of turn step.
5) Your turn, play the flooded strands.
6) Crack the fetch, Drain his card.
7) Go nuts with the mana's

[warble]

With your opening hand the best opening is Tundra, pass the turn.  If you have to force, you probably want to pitch your brainstorm here because drain mana can potentially hardcast your Exalted Angel.  If you make it to turn 2, holding brainstorm, you draw, play the fetch, and pass the turn again.  This maximizes the "control deck" part of your control deck, because you're holding back the maximum number of counters.  Then, if your opponent chooses to pass their next turn you can brainstorm, then pop the fetch.  However, given that your hand looks delicious from all perspectives, if you have to drain something and cast the angel in this instance you're stuck "holding" the brainstorm as pitch fodder for Force of Will.  Your hand is so beautiful that in fact using brainstorm on your first turn could be considered "wrong" because there isn't really anything you'd rather have and it's fine to save your pitch fodder.  It's safe to hold brainstorm until the end of your opponent's second turn, but with this "killer" hand you're welcome to brainstorm at the end of your first turn as well if you know, for example, it's really likely that you may need more then just mana drain + force backup.  If you do you're really in a lose-lose situation for control anyhow(how does control beat 2x duress on turn 2 followed by win . . . answer: it doesn't)

Edit: This means against TPS it is potentially the right play to play the brainstorm, but you HAVE to draw 1 blue card + mana drain or 2 blue cards + force of will for this "gamble" to pay off, you "break even" drawing 1 blue card and you are weakened if you draw 0 blue cards.  It's really not a bad (turn 1) play, again you have options mainly because you know you'll be holding mana drain + force of will with 2 blue open on turn 2.  Control players dream happy dreams of that happening, and those dreams turn into nightmares when their opponents play wasteland + landstill.

[yankeedave]

Thanks Warble, that was what I was looking for, I have been contemplating this for a while now, and this answered my question. How about the second part though? Has anyone got any examples of when it is / isn't viable to Brainstorm, and maybe mistakes that have been made because of this card? It will help me to hear these stories, so I can know what to avoid in the future.

Thanks to Everyone, once again!

[savekeeper]

I would lead with the Flooded strand, pass, then lay down the Tundra (or an Island depending on your draw) and again pass. If they don't do something dangerous then you can Brainstorm + shuffle end of turn, if they do then you simply play the Mana Drain.

If you follow Deadhead's plan then you will both Drain a card, play a Brainstorm followed by a shuffle effect and perhaps remove a creature. However, you will only shuffle away 1 card, and, because it is still early in the game, might shuffle away the wrong card. On top of that you will be vulnerable to wasteland and Strip Mine.

My plan is more conservative, giving you a better change against wasteland, which I think is important for a control deck. It also will allow you to shuffle 2 cards away with Brainstorm.

Overall I think you should be carefull with your Brainstorms. Don't just cast Brainstorm when you don't need too or if you don't have a shuffle effect.

[warble]

I would lead with the Flooded strand, pass, then lay down the Tundra

My plan is more conservative, giving you a better change against wasteland, which I think is important for a control deck. It also will allow you to shuffle 2 cards away with Brainstorm.

Actually, in your scenario wasteland still will stop the turn 2 mana drain (wasteland, declare attack, then cast your undrainable spell).  Because of his(yankeedave's) hand it's more important to have swords mana up and reserve your fetch for turn 2.  You can actually "hope" for the turn 1 wasteland with tundra online because holding a fetch you can then brainstorm in response, if you find another mana source you're good, if not you drew the best of the top 3 cards (and in a good scenario reshuffled your exalted/stp if that's what you wanted to do).  You will still get your fetch popped by turn 2, and if you use your flooded in this fashion you'll actually manage to pop the brainstorm.  Better to leave yourself swords or brainstorm on turn 1 then to be forced to pop your fetch for another tundra, wasting your reshuffle, for a Swords to Plowshares if that's what you had to do (example: Xantid Swarm).  Flooded Strand + Brainstorm is broken, Flooded Strand being able to resist Wasteland . . . not so broken.

[Toad]

If you realize you are facing an Aggro deck, and If you draw a land during the first two turns of the game (which means you have a guaranteed third land drop), there is no reason to cast that Brainstorm. You don't want to dig for more mana sources now, and you have no dead cards to shuffle back. In that situation, I'd probably keep the Brainstorm in hand by turn 2, drop my third land, and Brainstorm turn 3 with Mana Drain available if needed. Against aggro, I would not Brainstorm until I have no more lands in hand.

Against Control and Combo, I'd Brainstorm ASAP (turn 2) because Exalted Angel and STP are bad there.

[warble]

Toad has an excellent point.  Brainstorm shows its weakness when all the cards you need are in your hand, and you're just waiting for your next turn.  In these instances it is almost always better to simply topdeck, because if you do topdeck a dead card THEN you use brainstorm.  There's really no sense using brainstorm to "win-now" with a control deck.  If you had Control Slaver, SSB, Landstill, etc and were trying to search for more broken cards there is a legitimate reason to dig, but with those 3 decks Exalted and StP would instead be draw or Welder/Standstill/Tutor.  Since your deck can't "win-now" and has no dead cards, Brainstorm when your hand is perfect (with respect to your deck choice and opponent's deck) is a very bad choice.
If you topdeck a non-land and therefore might miss the next land drop + Exalted drop, don't even THINK of not brainstorming if you haven't drained against Aggro.

Edit: Actually, you might have to think if they're running burnnnnnnnnnn.  Losing Exalted is equivalent to losing the game if you are only running 1 and they have tons of burn, so you may want to wait for an expensive burn spell and then hardcast Exalted on drain mana perhaps even with force+drain protecting it.  If Exalted's your house you can afford to wait the extra turn or two.

[yankeedave]

Good advice. We have a very strange and somewhat limited Meta around here and I tend to see a lot of old school control, Oath, Welder MUD and TONS of rogue. I think the advice I have received so far has been most helpful.

How about this though:

I have 5 cards in hand after mullliganning 2 no land hands: Brainstorm, Stifle, Exalted, Island, Island. What should I do in this situation?

[warble]

I have 5 cards in hand after mullliganning 2 no land hands: Brainstorm, Stifle, Exalted, Island, Island. What should I do in this situation?

After crying, your choices are
1: Mulligan again (is your deck resilient enough?)
2: Play Island-Go on turn 1, hopefully you get to use your Stifle on a Fetchland.  On your turn 2, after you draw, you probably want to play your brainstorm depending on what you draw.  If you feel a little riskier, play the island, pass the turn, and hopefully you can bluff a mana drain effectively enough to alter your opponent's play.  Then, you draw again and play brainstorm, probably drop another land, and again bluff mana drain.  If you can't bluff mana drain effectively this play probably is not for you, although you might still want to go one-deeper with your brainstorm since your hand DOES suck.

[savekeeper]

I would lead with the Flooded strand, pass, then lay down the Tundra

My plan is more conservative, giving you a better change against wasteland, which I think is important for a control deck. It also will allow you to shuffle 2 cards away with Brainstorm.

Actually, in your scenario wasteland still will stop the turn 2 mana drain (wasteland, declare attack, then cast your undrainable spell).  Because of his(yankeedave's) hand it's more important to have swords mana up and reserve your fetch for turn 2.  You can actually "hope" for the turn 1 wasteland with tundra online because holding a fetch you can then brainstorm in response, if you find another mana source you're good, if not you drew the best of the top 3 cards (and in a good scenario reshuffled your exalted/stp if that's what you wanted to do).  You will still get your fetch popped by turn 2, and if you use your flooded in this fashion you'll actually manage to pop the brainstorm.  Better to leave yourself swords or brainstorm on turn 1 then to be forced to pop your fetch for another tundra, wasting your reshuffle, for a Swords to Plowshares if that's what you had to do (example: Xantid Swarm).  Flooded Strand + Brainstorm is broken, Flooded Strand being able to resist Wasteland . . . not so broken.

I don't get this. Following my plan you will have 2 lands in play on turn 2, 1 fetchland and 1 tundra. If they waste you're Tundra you can Brainstorm in response and after that shuffle away 2 cards if you want. You could also get another Tundra and play the Swords. If you lay the Tundra first you would still be able to have played Swords and Brainstorm by turn 2, but you would only have shuffled away 1 card. How then is my game plan not better then laying Tundra first and Flooded Strand second?

[warble]

On turn 2 the plays are equivalent.  However, on turn 1 you're forcing yourself to use the fetch if you want to play StP.  Given that the deck runs StP as a utility-creature answer as well as it's general all-purpose creature control, you're losing most of the purpose of StP by not allowing yourself to play it turn 1.  It's about having the correct play for turn 1, given this opening hand, and the correct play would be tundra.  You're sacrificing a great turn 1 play that would allow you to keep your fetchland(and brainstorm and reshuffle) which is really important given that the hand's only draw power is brainstorm + fetchland.  In exchange you allow your opponent to play a turn 1 wasteland instead of a turn 2 wasteland, but as we already went over, you're not planning on using your brainstorm on turn 1 anyway.  The reason you play tundra is your expected gain (playing Swords to Plowshares) is greater then the expected loss (losing a land to Wasteland on turn 1 instead of turn 2) mainly because you didn't actually HAVE a turn 1 play except for Swords to Plowshares, and you turn 2 play doesn't change even if wasteland is played(you're going to dig after your turn 3 draw if you're strapped for mana sources).

[yankeedave]

Okay, let's flip this then, how about if that Tundra was an Island? What would be the correct play then, given that the rest of the original hand is still the same?

[warble]

Now it is your call, but I'm still partial to tundra on turn 1.  This is because, again, the strength of StP is being able to play it on turn 1, leaving your mana open for a turn 2 mana drain.  However, now that tundra is your only white source, your exalted angel now starts to suck(you can't morph with just drain mana).  Again, you're not gaining anything by holding back your Tundra because you're going to need 2 white mana to get that Exalted out.  So, sticking to my guns, I'll keep to the turn-1 StP.  If you're absolutely certain your opponent has 1 strip mine and no waste effects in his hand (you're the uber card player) obviously you play the island.  You'll never know this, however if you do know that you won't be able to use StP on turn 1 you would always play the island because in that instance you aren't limiting your turn 1 play and you're strengthening the deck against wasteland(that will only work if you topdeck a fetchland or basic)

[yankeedave]

Sorry, I wasn't clear there. I meant to say, if the opening hand did not have a Tundra, but an Island instead, so it looked like: Flooded Strand, Brainstorm, Island, FoW, Mana Drain, Exalted Angel, StoP, then what would the correct play be? Sorry for the confusion.

[warble]

Now you're forced into playing Flooded Strand on turn 1.  Island isn't an option, so you've essentially weakened your brainstorm because of this.  Don't worry about that, though, because your hand is beautiful Brainstorm was essentially not useful anyhow except as force fodder.  Basically, it's better to stick out the flooded because, again, you want to USE that swords if possible on turn 1 to leave the turn 2 drain possibility open(into turn 3 possible hardcast exalted)  If you were to play island+go and your opponent plays a lackey/swarm you're losing your turn 2 drain(or a force).  Think of drain as the uber combo piece for Control Decks, it allows you to keep mana open for a counterspell while playing a threat that turn, or it gives you a hardcast exalted way too early.  You give preference to anything that allows a turn 2 drain, especially with something juicy like exalted in your hand.

Basically, since Brainstorm is a dead card for you on turn 1 (your cards are all good) you really shouldn't worry about trying to play it, so Swords to Plowshares is the important card you're worrying about playing on turn 1.