Yavimaya Naturalist

[Marco]

The origin of this card is a marriage between Elvish Lyrist and Harmonic Convergence.

Yavimaya Naturalist
G
Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
G, Tap: Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library.

I added the Shaman as an afterthought. I also considered Elf Druid and Elf Wizard.

[Marco]

Current Wording:

Yavimaya Naturalist
G
Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
GG, Tap: Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library.

[combo_dude]

I think that this is much, much too strong. It slows the opponent down far too much for a creature with CMC of 1. The activation would need to be at least 2, possibly even 3, IMO.

[Matt]

It only slows them down if they keep playing enchantments. That said, I'd like the activation cost to be {G} (casting cost of is perfect though). I like this guy a lot, since as much as our other colors are lacking beefy creatures, green is lacking utility guys.

[Marco]

I could go with an activation cost of 1G, if necessary. I could also go with an activation cost of 2G, if extremely necessary. (Maybe "2G: Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library. Play this ability only once each turn.") An activation cost of GG seems kind of unsexy to me. Whippoorwill is the only GG activation cost on a creature that I can think of...

[Jacob Orlove]

Edit: I had the casting and activation costs mixed up for Viridian Zealot.

[Marco]

We're talking about activation costs of GG, not casting costs of GG.

[Marco]

Thoughts?

[Marco]

I'd like to hear a good argument for an activation cost of 1G. Or a good argument against an activation cost of G.

[Marco]

I may just push for a 24 hour clock.

[Nova442]

I think the activation cost should be 1G because one mana creatures shouldn't be able to net you significant card advantage.  Return one enchantment and this is good, 2 or more and your opponent is incredibly behind.  Even if it actually returns nothing, it could be building up quite a bit of virtual card advantage as your opponent has to hold their cards or lose their draw next turn.  At 1G you don't have as much of a tempo gain, meaning your opponent has a better opportunity to overload you or press the attack while you play for card advantage.

Also this is an incredible hoser to any sort of enchantment lock deck and is never dead as a tiny beatstick.

[brianb]

An activation of 1G isn't enough.  I'm not sure 2G is either.  It needs a cc of at least 2 (and stay a 1/1).  Something that hoses enchantments this badly needs to suck in the absence of enchantments.  Here's an idea that could keep it fair at 1cc: tap and pay G to put target enchantment AND <this> on top of owner's library.  That creates more of a stalemate situation if they keep playing enchantments and you keep playing this.  Now such stalemates could be annoying if there's nothing else in play to keep the game moving, so this idea may require a little tweaking.  Something like that is needed to keep the power level in check though.

[Ephraim]

I agree with BrianB that this needs to have an activation cost of at least three. Compare this to Repel. This targets a less relevant permanent type, so in that regard it's a little bit worse than Repel. It also can't be used immediately. It is worse than Repel in those two ways. On the other hand, this can be used repeatedly and comes attached to a beater. The fact that this can be used repeatedly is very powerful. If somebody repels a creature, that creature can be replayed, which is a tempo loss. With this, the tempo loss is accompanied by a big card advantage loss, since not only does your opponent lose his next draw, but that draw is guaranteed to be dead. I suggest that if you're aiming to have this become a common card, then the combined mana cost plus activation cost should probably be six. If you're aiming to have it become uncommon, then five. In either case, the activation cost should almost certainly be no less than two mana.

[brianb]

Or maybe if it only returned enchantments to the owners hand.  That could probably be G for 1/1 with a Tap and G activation.

[Marco]

Change made. The activation cost is now 1G. This is more in line with Disempower which is a better comparison than Repel. I also found this mechanic on another green creature card: Elven Warhounds.

I think calling this a "beater" is a little extreme. I'd happily make it a 0/1 if I thought 1/1 was a problem. My thought is that if your deck can't deal with a 1/1 you've got problems. (Although Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey have shown the fearsomeness of 1/1s...)

As for this hosing enchantment-based decks, my reply is boo-hoo! What enchantment-based decks are we talking about? Enchantress? Don't Enchantress decks draw five cards a turn? It's only reoccurring card disadvantage if you are dumb enough to keep replaying the enchantment while this is in play...

I also think an activation cost greater than 3 is absurd. That's entering Invoker territory.

[brianb]

Disempower cost you a card and can't be reused, so the opponent can replay the disempowered card.  This removes the enchantment and makes your next draw dead.  It's just too much.  When discussing power levels, if you even have to bring up goblin welder, that's a good sign that a card is overpowered.  This is a hoser on the order of tranquil grove which costs 2 to cast, 3 to use.  2 to cast and 2 to use on a 1/1 is about as cheap as this effect ought to go.  If you want to keep it as a 1/1 for G dork that doesn't sac to the ability, you have to give the ability a drawback of some sort.

[Nibble]

By comparing this ability to Disempower, especially seeing as you're going for the same cost here (well, 1G vs. 1W), I feel obligated to note that the Spellshapers did what this card is doing, and all of them required discard as additional costs. Essentially, by making a G 1/1 with the ability at 1G, you're making a Spellshaper with no discard. I mean, obviously creatures are a much more common and better target than enchantments, but Waterfront Bouncer cost 1U for a 1/1, had to discard to use its ability, returned to hand rather than top of library, and it was still quite good.

[Godder]

Until Goblin Welder and other uses of the graveyard rose to prominence, Disempower was terrible, since whatever it was usually just came back next turn (compare to Memory Lapse, for example). A permanent effect like that seems much better now, and perhaps should be a spellshaper, but really, the creature isn't hard to deal with, generally speaking, and it only affects enchantments, not artifacts, so it's not as good as Disempower anyway. Still, since it doesn't cost a card, and is in a colour that isn't as good at enchantment-meddling as that of the original card (White), 2G would, perhaps, be more realistic, unless the card were to cost more to cast (say 1G or 1GG for a slightly larger body).

[brianb]

Way way way way way back when Mirage was new, I played Disempower in a stasis deck stasis for a while.  A reusable disempower seems good.  Protecting a dude isn't what most stasis decks want to do, but it's better than instill energy on a bird.  Making this into a spellshaper might be the answer.  1/1 for G, 1G and discard for the effect.  It actually might be better in limited as a 2/2 for 2G, G and discard for the effect.

[Marco]

You missed my point about Goblin Welder. Creatures are (and should be) the easiest permanent to deal with in Magic. Especially when the creature has a toughness of 1. "This is a hoser on the order of tranquil grove" isn't saying much as Tranquil Grove saw little play. Plus, Tranquil Grove destroys all enchantments, this just removes one. I don't want to make this a spellshaper, and I certainly don't want to make this a 2/2 for 2G as I am sick of my cards becoming 2/2's for 2C to make them "better in limited". Here are some possible changes:

Yavimaya Naturalist
G
Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
GG, Tap: Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library.

Yavimaya Naturalist
G
Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
2G: Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library. Play this ability only once each turn.

Yavimaya Naturalist
G
Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
Tap: Put Yavimaya Naturalist and target enchantment on top of their owners' libraries.

[Matt]

Yavimaya Naturalist

Creature – Elf Shaman
1/1
{G}, : Put target enchantment on top of its owner's library.

I like this one.

[Marco]

Me too. Change made.

[brianb]

If you bump the cc up one more, that would probably put it on on a reasonable power curve.  Something that could potentially just sit there and own someone's strategy needs to cost 2.  To leave it as a 1/1 for 1, you have to take the recurring card advantage out of it somehow.

[Matt]

Quirion Ranger sits there and owns Stasis and Worb-style mana lockdown pretty badly but you don't think it should cost more, do you?

[Marco]

Quirion Ranger sits there and owns Stasis and Worb-style mana lockdown pretty badly but you don't think it should cost more, do you?

Agreed. A lot of cards "own someone's strategy" at 1cc.

24 hour clock on current wording.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]