[Discussion] Kataki, War's Wage

[Negator131]

Kataki, War's Wage  1W
Legendary Creature - Spirit
All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this artifact unless you pay 1.".

2/1

#14/165

This seems really strong. There was a white-blue AEther Vial-based weenie deck running around a while ago, with 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, 4 Icatian Javelineers and 4 Meddling Mages. This seems like it would be extremely good in that deck as a sideboard card against the Modular('Affinity' according to SCG, though it ran zero cards with Affinity) deck that Top 8'd at SCG Chicago. That deck has been a growing force in my metagame, and I see this as a bit of relief against it. This could also form a similar function in U/w Fish, similar to the list that won Waterbury. Comments? Is Energy Flux just better?

[Luiggi]

The problem with this, first off, is that it's Legendary, so you'll never be able to multiply the effect, as you'd be able to with Energy Flux. Additionally, if you really want to wipe the table of artifacts, you have Serenity, that costs the same and is harder to get rid of. A further problem is that a lot of times this card won't be backbreaking for an Affinity/Modular deck, since they don't even run artifact lands anymore (which is what made Energy Flux so good against them in Extended), but rather things like Workshops, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. Granted, Workshops can't be used to pay for this upkeep, but the other lands can.

The main advantage I see with this card is that you can Vial it out, as you suggest. The question is whether that's enough of a reason to run it, especially with artifact decks starting to drop in numbers at major tournaments...

I see this card as excellent for Extended after the next round of rotations, since all the Affinity hate is rotating out, but I'm not totally convinced of its potential in Vintage.

Luiggi

[Bastian]

So true... I completely forgot about Serenity. This should still see some Extended play after the rotations, as you mentioned it though... Unless Pithing Needle makes Raffinity so good they have to start banning affinity pieces in Extended as well 

[Luiggi]

I haven't seen the spoiler yet. What does that "Pithing Edge" card do?

EDIT: obviously I can't even read the card's name properly, sigh... I think I need another cup of coffee...

Luiggi

[KDenz81]

It's Pithing Needle

Pithing Needle - 1
Artifact
As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of the named cardcan't be played unless they're mana abilities.

Ok, I'm up against Mindslaver.dec.  I'll name Goblin Welder? 
This card is basically a Nul Rod for any card you name.  I could definately see this card getting heavily played.

[Freelancer]

The biggest advantage this card has is that its a creature which means its:
a) Always usefull
B) Can be vialed into play

It also nicely shuts down moxen (pay or sacrifice), which is a plus.
It might find a home in some WW deck or maybe a fish deck.
In the sideboard its however overshadowed by other cards so it should be in the maindecked.

I haven't seen the spoiler yet. What does that "Pithing Edge" card do?

I think you mean "pithing needle"

Here:
Pithing Needle - 1
Artifact
As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of the named cardcan't be played unless they're mana abilities.


Edit: Damn you beat me to it.

[Luiggi]

Sigh, I think I need another cup of coffee. I can't even read the card's name properly,  .

Pithing Needle actually sounds really good. That's an answer to Pernicious Deed for every creature-based deck in Extended! I'll have to get my hands on four copies!

Luiggi

[Freelancer]

Its not only good in extended but also in vintage and standard consider:

T1 (random order):
Goblin welder
Bazaar of bagdad
Fetch and wasteland (with a crucible of the worlds for instance)
Phyrexian furnace
Wild mongrel
Spiketail hatchling
Grim lavamancer
Deed
Gorilla shaman
River boa
Mind slaver
Pentavus
Aether vial
And a bunch of other cards I forgot

T2:
Vedalken shackles (big)
Equipment (jitte SoFI -huge-)
Trike
Regenerating critters
Aether vial
And probably some others as well.

This is truly one of the best sideboard cards printed in quite some time.


But the discussion wasn't about the needle, lets be carefull we don't steal this topic.

[Geet]

Why would you Vial this out??? now you have an upkeep on your vial.

[Luiggi]

Why would you Vial this out??? now you have an upkeep on your vial.

Yes, but that's a small price to pay if your opponent has an upkeep on all his Moxes/Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/etc., especially since the deck you'd be running this creature in would in all likelihood not have much artifact acceleration to speak of.

I find the card strategically similar to Null Rod against artifact-heavy decks, though the latter is obviously better but wouldn't be synergistic with our Vials.

Luiggi

[Axor_the_Superman]

Imho Kataki may be usefull used WITH null rod.

We have to pay cost for vial (we can pay it also with null rod for sometimes), cost for null rod, but opponent must pay cost for his artifact and he can't use moxes&co.

We pay for 2-3 turns mana for rod+vial, and when oppo doesn't keep any (or few) artifact we can sacrifice null rod and and start with hard bitting.

I play a version of UW weenie adapted for Italian Meta. In next days I will post it for a usefull discussion.

Axor

[o]

Imho Kataki may be usefull used WITH null rod.

We have to pay cost for vial (we can pay it also with null rod for sometimes), cost for null rod, but opponent must pay cost for his artifact and he can't use moxes&co.

We pay for 2-3 turns mana for rod+vial, and when oppo doesn't keep any (or few) artifact we can sacrifice null rod and and start with hard bitting.

I play a version of UW weenie adapted for Italian Meta. In next days I will post it for a usefull discussion.

Axor

umm... are you suggesting that Null Rod and AEther Vial go in the same deck?  Casue, er... they don't.

[zulander]

i think this guy would go well in uw fish well as a two of. he is better cause he gives you the effect on a stick in game one and game two you can sb as necessary if they have too many artifacts. He is good, only as a two of though.

[Luiggi]

I think the question is that given how well U/W Fish did this past weekend at Rochester without Kataki is it worth putting him in, and my guess is probably No.

Luiggi

[Axor_the_Superman]

With Kataki Vial and Rod CAN go in the same deck.

The reason is that kataki can remove null rod, that we can use in sb and in game 2-3 sb in when we need it.

Before Kataki the problem of playing Rod&Vial was how remove Rod if useless, but with this great critter we can remove rod simply without pay his upkeep.

Now we can play vial + rod (in sb) with kataki, and play a competitive deck against powered decks without lose the power of Vial.

My 2 €ent

[silencebringer]

I think if your plan going in is to destroy your own cards, then you may want to rethink it....
You really need to choose - null rod or vial. Go with one - embrace it, be a happy magic player. Don't set yourself up to make one or the other a card you need to destroy, because that is just disadvantage.

[Axor_the_Superman]

Now I explain:   

My idea is play 4x vial in MD and 2x kataki MD.

In SB 3x Null Rod and 1x Kataki.

When playing Vs Powered decks in 2nd game I SB in 3x Rod and 1x kataki.

In this way I can play vial. I play kataki paying upkeep of Vial.

If I draw null rod I can play it also with vial, because oppo have to decide if mantein his spoiler with lands or sacrifice them (they become useless with rod).

In few turns oppo will lose his moxes&co and we can sacrifice null rod without paying mana cost for kataki.

May it work?

[Bastian]

I think the question is that given how well U/W Fish did this past weekend at Rochester without Kataki is it worth putting him in, and my guess is probably No.

Was Saviours even legal in Rochester? Im not very sure but if it wasn't how can you expect that a card that wasn't legal to make or not an impact? I believe it will find a niche in fish. It's a mini Energy Flux on a stick. The fact that it's a 2power-2cc creature makes it even better.

Having a creature that makes all your opponent's moxen cost 1 each turn easn't really very good for them because they just end up either sacrificing them or paying for them (which makes them dead cards in the table unless your opponent's going for something to wipe out Kataki). By then you probably play another one or some other threat and ride to victory. This said, yes, I believe it's a solid type 1 card that will find its uses.

[Luiggi]

Was Saviours even legal in Rochester? Im not very sure but if it wasn't how can you expect that a card that wasn't legal to make or not an impact?

You missed the point... I'm saying that U/W Fish has been doing great lately, especially this past weekend at the StarCity Power-9 tournament in Rochester... Given how well Fish has been doing lately without Kataki (because, as you pointed out, Saviors isn't legal yet), is there really an incentive to add him to existing U/W Fish lists when Saviors rotates in? Especially since more and more Fish decks are running Aether Vials, Chalices and artifact acceleration, I remain unconvinced of its usefulness. Sure, you can re-tool the build to minimize Kataki's negative impact on you, but again, is it really worth it?

Luiggi

[Vegeta2711]

. Given how well Fish has been doing lately without Kataki (because, as you pointed out, Saviors isn't legal yet), is there really an incentive to add him to existing U/W Fish lists when Saviors rotates in?

That's pretty flawed thinking. Saying Fish shouldn't add him because they've been doing well before he was even legal seems wrong.

'I've been doing great with this deck, so why should I change it?'

See: Keeper becoming 4cc and then 3cc
OSE becoming Rose
MUD becoming Stax
Etc.

Why don't you just try it and if he fits? If he doesn't, fine, he goes on the backburner until he can be good. If he is good, you've improved the deck.

[Luiggi]

At no point did I ever said that we shouldn't add him. I expressed my opinion that I remain unconvinced of his usefulness given the new artifact approach that Fish decks have been taking, and that I think that it will be counterproductive to have to pay an upkeep on your Vials, Chalices, Null Rods, etc.

No one's stopping anyone from throwing Kataki in to their Fish decks, but that's a change I'm not particularly interested in trying until someone convinces me. Am I being a bit narrow? Maybe. But then again do I even play Fish? No, . I was just expressing my personal opinion that I hadn't heard good enough reasons to put him in, that's all.

Luiggi

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Kataki, Wars Edge.... "hmm that's cute..." "but it's a legend..." "and it's only a 2/1, so you can say goodbye to blocking with it, not to mention the truckloads of lava darts running around would own him..." "but it's only 2 mana..." "2 mana for something that annoys your opponent because he is playing artifacts, especially moxen..."  "Wait, wasn't there a card called Null Rod, now that card card is a similar 2 mana, and knocks out your opponents artifacts(not all artifacts, but moxen are hit hard)..."  Well that chain of thinking has lead me to two conclusions:

First, if Null Rod, in my opinion, is a little less flexable, but you don't give your opponent any choices of what they want to keep and what they don't, you just shut down all of their artifact mana production and a few other artifacts, and it's not something that's going to die to a random Lava Dart of Fire/Ice. 

Second, why would a deck, such as Fish, want to find even more slots in the MD for a card that doesn't specifically answer any threats, and for the most part just annoys your opponent. Most decks have an easy answer to such a threat, tap all their moxen to save their moxen, then kill the Kataki.  Then your opponent say's "Hey that was cute"

Those are my thoughts...

[nataz]

in the control match-up:
null rod often times reads: give your opponent 2 colorless mana durring their next mainphase, skip your second turn.

kataki w/ vial reads: opponents dont' have moxen anymore, and have to pay (1) each turn for sol ring.

In the workshop match-up:

kataki can also tap out a WS player (considering they cant use WS mana to pay the effect) or take away their perminant advantage, making stax less useful.

[Fubar]

This seems like a great fish card(as a 2 of) for sideboard against shop decks, especially some of these almost monobrown ones running around Canada.  It could really hurt someone with a tangle wire out.  But i wouldn't use the word amazing at all.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're bumping a thread that's more than a month old, you had better have a good reason. That last post does not qualify.

Closed.