Revenge of the Sith

[Machinus]

Post your thoughts and comments here. The discussion can finally end...or begin?

I was not disappointed with this movie. I came into it with the same hope I have always held for Lucas - that he would come thround and make a good movie, and save some of the dignity of the star wars universe. On top of that, I really enjoyed it.

Some major bonuses (spoilers!):
- No Jar-Jar (you see him either one or two times but he doesn't have any dialogue)
- More Action (soo many battle scenes)
- Less Whining
- Wookies

There is a lot more but I want it to come out in discussion. Did anyone else see it at 12?

[EDIT: One thing I want to add for the sake of discussion is that I was again disappointed by the performance of Mr. Jackson. His delivery was flat and his character still seemed devoid of emotion, except for the last part of his scene with palpatine and anakin.]

[Dr. Sylvan]

I saw it at midnight (the first movie I have ever done that for). I also enjoyed it a lot, but was surprised at some of the problems I noticed. There were far too many of the lines where either the delivery or the line itself catapulted me out of suspension-of-disbelief and into "that was a bad line". I would also like to note that George Lucas managed to make YODA annoying by ridiculously overplaying the sentences-ending-with-verbs gimmick.

It'll be a few days and probably another viewing before I'm sure whether it's more like Episode II (plenty of weak dialogue but good action) or Episode V (dark and awesome with forgiveable flaws).

[Methuselahn]

I think the movie continued that fabulous trend of being incredibly corny.  Graphics were top of the line, as expected.

Really tho, I think the MVP should go to Ian McDiarmid (sp?) for the role of Palpatine.  The silver going to the Wookies.  <3

[Bram]

I thought it was awesome.

Lucas redeems himself after two VERY meagre movies by making the bast SW episode since ESB. Incredibly, this movie is on par with the original trilogy in my opinion (even though it does not top ESB as Kevin Smith proclaimed). I aree that some of the lines were kind of corny, but seriously, so was some of the original dialogue. There was even some humor in there at times in spite of the gloomy atmosphere.

Oh, and Yoda is NEVER annoying.

[Komatteru]

I thought it was really savage.

The film does tackle some complex themes pretty well.  The concept of the Dark Side is given a lot of humanity, and the narrative does a really good job of explaining the differences in ideals between the Sith and the Jedi.  It does make the first two prequels make a lot more sense.  The acting was much better than in the past two films, but Hayden Christensen just doesn't have the maturity as an actor to pull off the transformation from Anakin to Vader.  He did a pretty good job with it, but I can't really think of a young actor off the top of my head who could pull it off perfectly.  All the actors I can think of that would be capable of handling such a complex role are way too old (think Liam Neeson in Schindler's List, Al Pacino, Clint Eastwood, Jack Nicholson, Tom Hanks, etc.).  Padme didn't have a lot of lines, so Ms. Portman wasn't given a chance to showcase her personality-of-a-cardboard-box skills one last time, so that was good.  The dialogue had its problems, and the Yoda backwards talk thing was really over done.  Overall, I think the film was as deep as Empire, as I've been thinking about the concept of the Dark Side for the past few days now.  This film has made me a lot more interested in the Star Wars universe and mythos, something that no other film (including Lord of the Rings) has made me do.

I also saw it at 12.  Thus far, I have seen both Matrix sequels, Two Towers, Return of the King, and now this at midnight.  I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few more in there, but all the huge blockbuster releases I've gone to see at midnight in the past 3 years.

[TracerBullet]

  Padme didn't have a lot of lines, so Ms. Portman wasn't given a chance to showcase her personality-of-a-cardboard-box skills one last time, so that was good. 

Says the guy who said Hayden Christensen did a pretty good job with his role.


Suffice it to say, the skies could part, the seas could boil, and god himself could come down and show Hayden Christensen and it wouldn't make a boar's balls worth of difference.  The guy is absolutely fucking terrible in everything I've seen him in, something that can't be said of Natalie Portman.

Absolutely terrible.  And disparaging Natalie Portman to make statements like that is really grounds for dismissal from humanity.

[Bram]

Anyone else think Miss Portman was noticably less hawt? She's getting old

[Dr. Sylvan]

Anyone else think Miss Portman was noticably less hawt? She's getting old

Hey, give her a break, pregnancy will do that to a girl!

[TracerBullet]

Anyone else think Miss Portman was noticably less hawt? She's getting old

Hey, give her a break, pregnancy will do that to a girl!

And I'll do pregnancy to her!

[Jacob Orlove]

The really sad part about the dialogue was how someone clearly knew how to make it better, but didn't.  In the trailer, Palpatine says "Every Jedi is now an enemy of the republic. Do what must be done. Show no mercy." or something very close to that, but in the actual movie, the line is like twice as long and nowhere near as good.

Oh, and I cringed every time they said "younglings". H8.

[Saucemaster]

Yeah, the dialogue was pretty much uniformly crappy, and between that and the poor directing--did they do more than one take for any of these scenes?--the performances all came out pretty badly, too.  With the possible exception of Ian McDiarmid.

Did anyone else just heave a huge "WTF?" at the screen when Anakin went from "What have I done?" to "Hey, I'll go kill the children" in like ten seconds flat?  Once Anakin had BECOME Vader the movie was awesome, and I forgave it its flaws, but the actual moment of transition was basically nonexistent.  It might have been a LITTLE more believable if he'd actually killed Mace Windu himself in a moment of rage and confusion, but as it is I wasn't buying.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I bought into the transition in the following way: Once Anakin knew Windu was going to kill Palpatine, he had to make an instant decision whether to support the Sith Lord or the Jedi standing in front of him. He saved Palpatine because he's so desperate about saving Padme (watching the Episode II scene where Anakin is talking to his mother's grave adds substantially to this). Once his actions immediately resulted in the death of a Jedi, he was committed. Palpatine explains that the Jedi will kill them once they learn of Windu's death. Anakin cannot betray Windu and then fail to support Palpatine's next move if he is putting priority on himself and his ability to save Padme.

Add to this that Palpatine has established his credibility to Anakin since he first came to Coruscant, so Anakin likely believes that the Jedi are going to seize power, and it all adds up. Both Palpatine and Windu try to implore Anakin to believe the other is the traitor to the Republic---and Anakin has a personal dislike of Windu for holding him back, combined with a longstanding personal relationship with Palpatine. Anakin has an incomparable personal motive to choose Palpatine, and a strong rationalization for abandoning his loyalty to the Jedi. "What have I done" is his indication that he understands there is no going back. "I'll do whatever you ask" is his recognition that, committed, he needs to work with Palpatine to survive and protect Padme.

I totally bought it.

[Jacob Orlove]

It was still a little abrupt at the time. Looking back, I can see how he chooses the emotional path of the Sith right then, but there could easily have been another minute (even 30 seconds) of dialogue from either one of them that would have made the transition much less jarring.

[Saucemaster]

I bought into the transition in the following way: Once Anakin knew Windu was going to kill Palpatine, he had to make an instant decision whether to support the Sith Lord or the Jedi standing in front of him. He saved Palpatine because he's so desperate about saving Padme (watching the Episode II scene where Anakin is talking to his mother's grave adds substantially to this). Once his actions immediately resulted in the death of a Jedi, he was committed. Palpatine explains that the Jedi will kill them once they learn of Windu's death. Anakin cannot betray Windu and then fail to support Palpatine's next move if he is putting priority on himself and his ability to save Padme.

Add to this that Palpatine has established his credibility to Anakin since he first came to Coruscant, so Anakin likely believes that the Jedi are going to seize power, and it all adds up. Both Palpatine and Windu try to implore Anakin to believe the other is the traitor to the Republic---and Anakin has a personal dislike of Windu for holding him back, combined with a longstanding personal relationship with Palpatine. Anakin has an incomparable personal motive to choose Palpatine, and a strong rationalization for abandoning his loyalty to the Jedi. "What have I done" is his indication that he understands there is no going back. "I'll do whatever you ask" is his recognition that, committed, he needs to work with Palpatine to survive and protect Padme.

I totally bought it.

I would have bought it if if had been fleshed out more; my problem was that he appears conflicted, and horrified at himself, after he intervenes to stop Windu.  But imagine the kind of personality and character someone has to have to go from "Oh my God, what have I done" to "fuck it, I'ma go saber me some younglings" in like 30 seconds flat.  I think you'd have to be an incredibly Machiavellian mofo, AND have a very, very strong will.  Anakin never showed anything like that kind of steely resolve; if anything, he does nothing but whine and bitch for most of the movies until suddenly, BAM! in the course of one scene now he's suddenly a cold-blooded machine who sees what he has to do and does it without compunction.  He goes from resenting the Jedi and doing nothing but defending Palpatine (remember, he doesn't even kill Mace Windu--Sidious does that) to outright killing them--and the most defenseless of them!--in no time flat.  That's what I don't buy.  I think Lucas set up the PATH to his becoming Vader and being capable of flat-out murder when Anakin intervened to save Palpatine, but rather than actually walk Anakin down that path, he has him leapfrog to the very end of it.  In a movie that was willing to spend multiple scenes on "I love YOU more!" "No, I love YOU MORE!", that seems indefensible.  Of course, the real problem is that it takes a much better writer to create the "Anakin becomes Vader" scene, and a much better actor to actually portray it.

EDIT: Or, to put it another way, Pip, you gave the REASONS that Anakin eventually had to come to the conclusion he came to; what we didn't see was him actually coming to that conclusion, and he was never presented as a person of the type of character that would allow him to come to such a conclusion in a split second, and follow through without so much as once second-guessing himself.  All he's DONE is second-guess himself and everyone else for two-and-a-half movies, why should that change in one instant?

[MuzzonoAmi]

I really wasn't irritated by the sudden transition as I was by a few really little things. First, did I miss something or did Obi-Wan never pick up Anakin's lightsaber? This adds another inconsistancy to the prequels (Obi-Wan tells Luke in A New Hope, "This is your father's lightsaber.") that is mildly irritating. But since it's so minor, it's somewhat forgivable. There were bits of dialogue that irritated me to no end, especially Padme naming Luke and Leia, which completely kills what little chance a person would have to see the movies (for the first time) in order and still have some suprise in ESB when Luke finds out Vader is his father.

Also - was anyone else like "WTF" when Yoda brings up that Qui-Gon has found the secret to cheating death, and then nothing more is made of it? Especially because if that were the case, where is Qui-Gon in A New Hope, or at least why isn't he mentioned. It's bad enough that he existed in the role he did in the first place, but why bring him up for no reason at all at the very end and then make nothing of it?

[nataz]

@ the lightsaber thingy
I'm pretty sure he picks it up right before his "you were the chosen one " speech.

It happens really quick, but I did notice it.

@ the cheating death thing

I'm assuming its the whole being able to come back and talk after you die thing that ends up happening to yoda, obiwan, and vader in the later movies, not actualy coming back in the flesh. 

[MuzzonoAmi]

I thought about that,  but is it even necessary for them to say that? I guess that since he never shows up  in Episodes I and II, it might've been, but they certianly could've written it better. And not bringing it up at all would've been even better than that.

[Machinus]

The only people who would talk to Qui-Gonn would be Yoda and Obi-Wan, when they are alone, waiting for luke and leia to mature. We hear ben talking to yoda on dagobah because only ben has seen and talked to luke. There would be no reason to ovehear conversation with anyone else. The only other person Qui-Gonn would talk to would be Vader, but that would only be after he betrays his Sith master, when he joins the force.

[jpmeyer]

Also - was anyone else like "WTF" when Yoda brings up that Qui-Gon has found the secret to cheating death, and then nothing more is made of it? Especially because if that were the case, where is Qui-Gon in A New Hope, or at least why isn't he mentioned. It's bad enough that he existed in the role he did in the first place, but why bring him up for no reason at all at the very end and then make nothing of it?

YES.  I expected at least a tiny scene with blue glow-y Qui-Gon.

[Godot]

Actually it appears that there was a scene b/t Yoda and Qui-Gonn that was cut from the final movie so maybe it'll be on the dvd.

On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...

QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.

http://scripts.cgispy.com/newsboard.cgi?action=view&num=2&user=script

[Often Lost]

The best part of this movie is that the film broke after Vader's "Nooooo" allowing me to get a cash refund.

[Smmenen]

I bought into the transition in the following way: Once Anakin knew Windu was going to kill Palpatine, he had to make an instant decision whether to support the Sith Lord or the Jedi standing in front of him. He saved Palpatine because he's so desperate about saving Padme (watching the Episode II scene where Anakin is talking to his mother's grave adds substantially to this). Once his actions immediately resulted in the death of a Jedi, he was committed. Palpatine explains that the Jedi will kill them once they learn of Windu's death. Anakin cannot betray Windu and then fail to support Palpatine's next move if he is putting priority on himself and his ability to save Padme.

Add to this that Palpatine has established his credibility to Anakin since he first came to Coruscant, so Anakin likely believes that the Jedi are going to seize power, and it all adds up. Both Palpatine and Windu try to implore Anakin to believe the other is the traitor to the Republic---and Anakin has a personal dislike of Windu for holding him back, combined with a longstanding personal relationship with Palpatine. Anakin has an incomparable personal motive to choose Palpatine, and a strong rationalization for abandoning his loyalty to the Jedi. "What have I done" is his indication that he understands there is no going back. "I'll do whatever you ask" is his recognition that, committed, he needs to work with Palpatine to survive and protect Padme.

I totally bought it.

I would have bought it if if had been fleshed out more; my problem was that he appears conflicted, and horrified at himself, after he intervenes to stop Windu.  But imagine the kind of personality and character someone has to have to go from "Oh my God, what have I done" to "fuck it, I'ma go saber me some younglings" in like 30 seconds flat.  I think you'd have to be an incredibly Machiavellian mofo, AND have a very, very strong will.  Anakin never showed anything like that kind of steely resolve; if anything, he does nothing but whine and bitch for most of the movies until suddenly, BAM! in the course of one scene now he's suddenly a cold-blooded machine who sees what he has to do and does it without compunction.  He goes from resenting the Jedi and doing nothing but defending Palpatine (remember, he doesn't even kill Mace Windu--Sidious does that) to outright killing them--and the most defenseless of them!--in no time flat.  That's what I don't buy.  I think Lucas set up the PATH to his becoming Vader and being capable of flat-out murder when Anakin intervened to save Palpatine, but rather than actually walk Anakin down that path, he has him leapfrog to the very end of it.  In a movie that was willing to spend multiple scenes on "I love YOU more!" "No, I love YOU MORE!", that seems indefensible.  Of course, the real problem is that it takes a much better writer to create the "Anakin becomes Vader" scene, and a much better actor to actually portray it.

EDIT: Or, to put it another way, Pip, you gave the REASONS that Anakin eventually had to come to the conclusion he came to; what we didn't see was him actually coming to that conclusion, and he was never presented as a person of the type of character that would allow him to come to such a conclusion in a split second, and follow through without so much as once second-guessing himself.  All he's DONE is second-guess himself and everyone else for two-and-a-half movies, why should that change in one instant?

Justin, I understand what you are saying here, there are some flaws.  I think there are two in particular, but let me get to that. 

I think what happened *Right* was that the transition from loyalty to Jedi to Palpatine was done well.  The particular actions that flow from that may not have smoothly followed. 

The question is: what is it that Dr. Sylvan is *buying* and you aren't?  Is it that Anakin is suddenly is a bad guy?  No, that's not it.  It isn't that Anakin is suddenly Sith, becuase he isn't.  The thing you are struggling with is the fact that Vader DOES NOT exist.  There is no Vader.  There is no transition from Jedi to Vader.  There is only internal conflict in him that ebbs and flows.  That's why Padme says: there is good in him and why Luke senses that as well.   Otherwise he would not have killed the Emperor in the last film.   And that is what I think best came through this film.  The entire time, you could never be certain which way he was going.  Even at the moment he pledged loyalty to Palpatine, he looked up and there was a look not of hate, but of distrust.  He looked up and had the look of a man who hated what he was doing but saw no choice.  What there is, and what Pip and I bought into is that Anakin is simply pledging his loyalty to Palpatine - nothing more. 

What was less plausible? Two things.  First, as soon as Anakin discovers that Padme is dead, his motivation to remain loyal basically dissapears.  At that point, he may have been just so far over into the Dark Side that he saw no other choice but to remain with Palpatine.  I think what would have made this more convincing is what is alluded to in other sources - if Anakin doesn't remain loyal, then Palpatine will have him killed.  How?  Palpatine implanted a devise in his suit that would kill him if Vader betrays him.   But I think that was the major character flaw in the film. 

If Padme is dead, then Anakin has NO REASON whatsoever to follow Palpatine.  If he is Sith, he should immediately kill Palpatine and take his place.  If he is good, he should kill Palpatine and then try to create a new Jedi order.  A resolution to this issue needed to be included in the film.  Even if Anakin felt that he could learn more from Palpatine before betraying him, that needed to be included in some way.

The second thing I think was less plausible was what you said: the sudden killing of all the Jedi.  But Palpatine says: The Jedi are relentless - they will kill us when they discovered what we've done.  He's right too.  If Anakin doesn't do what must be done, then they willl come after him.  The only chance they have is to storm the Jedi temple and take them by surprise. 

I think what I liked most about the film the first time I saw it is the tension in Anakin.  The entire time little things were building up to sway Anakin one way or the other.  You don't catch this in the movie, but in the book they make a big deal about when Obi-Wan tells Anakin to stop calling him "master" but to call him "Obi-wan."  That is a huge point that you only barely see in the film.  The last time Anakin and Obi-Wan chat before their confrontation is when Obi-Wan gives him the whole "I'm so proud of you" speech and at the end of that speech, Anakin calls him Obi-Wan.  It's not obvious becuase they didn't set it up to be, but its critically important.  Every chat with Anakin between Padme after he pledges loyalty to Sidious makes it clear that she is trying to bring him back, but his fear of her death keeps him from coming back.  And once he tastes his new powers, it becomes even harder to bring him back.

Having seen all this, it makes complete sense that in Jedi, what would bring him back is basically the result of his love with Padme.  The Emperor made a critical error.  The same thing that was used to turn Anakin is what brought him into the light: his love with Padme.  Perhaps the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but there may be a back door exit on that road. 

[ctthespian]

  Padme didn't have a lot of lines, so Ms. Portman wasn't given a chance to showcase her personality-of-a-cardboard-box skills one last time, so that was good. 

Says the guy who said Hayden Christensen did a pretty good job with his role.


Suffice it to say, the skies could part, the seas could boil, and god himself could come down and show Hayden Christensen and it wouldn't make a boar's balls worth of difference.  The guy is absolutely fucking terrible in everything I've seen him in, something that can't be said of Natalie Portman.

Absolutely terrible.  And disparaging Natalie Portman to make statements like that is really grounds for dismissal from humanity.

Actually Hayden Christensen was exellent in "Life as a House" opposite Kevin Kline.  Then again he was playing a whiny teenager the whole movie and was acting opposite an exquisite actor.  Still his performace was very good in that film and he hasn't reached those levels again to my knowledge.  As far as Natalie Portman her acting is nothing to go crazy over.

-Keith

[Bram]

If Padme is dead, then Anakin has NO REASON whatsoever to follow Palpatine.  If he is Sith, he should immediately kill Palpatine and take his place.  If he is good, he should kill Palpatine and then try to create a new Jedi order.  A resolution to this issue needed to be included in the film.

I apologise in advance for this short reply, but I assure you it is well thought-through

I believe that this is not necessarily a flaw in the movie. I see it as a character flaw in Anakin. When it comes down to it, he is simply a weak man. He is too meek to kill Palpatine out of either feelings of hate, lust for power, or justice. Ultimatelty, his own actions ensured his servile relationship with Palpatine. He made himself a slave to the Emperor rather than an apprentice, when all it would have taken to stop him was the guts to just quit and walk out. Yes, he would die if he did. But he should have realised his life was no longer worth living if he didn't. This is how Luke evenually beat the game, and why Luke is a greater man than Anakin ever was.

[Smmenen]

If Padme is dead, then Anakin has NO REASON whatsoever to follow Palpatine.  If he is Sith, he should immediately kill Palpatine and take his place.  If he is good, he should kill Palpatine and then try to create a new Jedi order.  A resolution to this issue needed to be included in the film.

I apologise in advance for this short reply, but I assure you it is well thought-through

I believe that this is not necessarily a flaw in the movie. I see it as a character flaw in Anakin. When it comes down to it, he is simply a weak man. He is too meek to kill Palpatine out of either feelings of hate, lust for power, or justice. Ultimatelty, his own actions ensured his servile relationship with Palpatine. He made himself a slave to the Emperor rather than an apprentice, when all it would have taken to stop him was the guts to just quit and walk out. Yes, he would die if he did. But he should have realised his life was no longer worth living if he didn't. This is how Luke evenually beat the game, and why Luke is a greater man than Anakin ever was.

Well, to make sense of it all, I agree with you.  But playing devil's advocate further: what about his claims that he and Padme would overthrow the Emperor or his similar offer to Luke?  Even if the latter was not genuine, certainly the former was.  Also, there is a tension between his weakness here and his boldness in executing the Emperor's commands. 

I like the quote in Dark Empire:
Palpatine: "You want to know the truth about the great Darth Vader?"
"The Great Darth Vader was just a weak man in an iron mask." 

I think the one interesting point that struck me when I first saw Episide III was the fact that Anikan acts the same in Episode III as he does in VI.  He rescues the Emperor from Windu.  He rescures Luke from the Emporer in the SAME SITUATION.  In both cases, he comes to the aid of the person being attacked.  But also in both cases, the love of Padme   is what motivates his actions.  In the case of the Emperor, he wants to save Padme.  In the case of Luke, he wants to save the product of that love. 

Perhaps the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but there is an emergency exit.

[Bram]

But playing devil's advocate further: what about his claims that he and Padme would overthrow the Emperor or his similar offer to Luke?  Even if the latter was not genuine, certainly the former was.

I actually believe his offer to Luke was genuine, as well. And for what it's worth, I think that if Padme would have said 'Oh, the hell with it...let's give it a shot' he would have tried it. And failed, because of his lack of experience. In the situation with Luke, I'm guessing he would have tried it, as well. And failed as well, this time because of a lack of knowledge. Don't think for a moment the Emperor didn't see Vaders little 'offer' to Luke coming all along. Now that I have seen all six movies, I am strengthened in my belief that right up to the moment where Luke throws down his lightsaber and says what basically amounts to 'fuck you', everything goes exactly according to Palpatine's plans. He is by far Vader's intellectual superior. Think about it. Granted, Vader is not retarded, but have we ever seen him display above average intelligence anywhere? He's merely hugely powerful. You could say that he was still led partially by his emotions, but you could also say that he was kind of dumb that way.

Also, there is a tension between his weakness here and his boldness in executing the Emperor's commands.

While I'm loathe to compare a movie situation to actual historical events, I think we all know how regular people with insecurities and doubts can become ruthless murderers given the right situation and chain of command. Hiding behind 'an order is an order' as an excuse for the most horrible of crimes is as old as humanity. 

I like the quote in Dark Empire:
Palpatine: "You want to know the truth about the great Darth Vader?"
"The Great Darth Vader was just a weak man in an iron mask."

That is hawt. That is so what I always imagined Palpatine would secretly think. Who is this quote directed to, and what exactly is Dark Empire? While I'm a huge fan of the movies, I have always stuck faithfully to the orgininal six. I have not seen Clone Wars (which is supposedly good) or read any of the novels except one of the Bountyhunter books and some Tales of the Jedi comics ('Golden Age of the Sith') which took place some 5,000 years B.L.

Here's another thing I'd like to discuss. Who is Anakin's father?

In TPM, Qui-gon implies that he was concieved 'by midi-chlorians'. As some site writes:

Now we have to make a further leap of faith, suspending disbelief in some microscopic organelles who not only possess a complicated reproductive system, represent the Will of God and can collectively organize a sort of parthenogenetic miracle in the form of immaculate conception.

In ROTS, Palpatine says:

It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life (...) He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

In the context of the movie, everyone concentrates on the latter statement as it is with this 'ruse' that Palpatine lures Anakin into allegiance. I found myself fascinated by the former, however. If Plagueis was the first Sith powerful enough to influence the mini-chlorians to create life, would it be such a leap of faith to think that Plagueis 'concieved' Anakin? This for me puts Palpatine's interest in the young boy in a whole now light. Also, I think it's a fairly important question if Anakin was the product of the Force or of the Dark Side in particular.

[Smmenen]

I don't think it was a Ruse.  I think Lucas was trying to tell us that, basically, Anakin was bred by the Sith.

Second, as for the quote:  As a child, I was never really a fan of Star Wars.  In 1991 or so, Dark Horse Comics put out a comic book shortly after the first of the Timothy Zahn novels was published.  The comic was a 6 issue mini-series called "Dark Empire."

This was the thing which hooked me on star wars.  The premise was simple:
The Emperor uses Clones to keep himself alive.  The dark side forces so ravage his body that many times during his life he has had to enter a clone body.  How?  One of the Dark Side abilities is that he can transfer his essence into a clone. "A clone of the man he once was."  He can also enter another person unwillingly and overpower the mind within.  The transitional experience is described as quite painful, but a small price to pay for eternal life. 

Therefore, the whole plot of the book is that the Emperor lures Luke and tries to get him to join the dark side.  Luke can't kill him through physically destroying him since he'd just enter a clone body.  There are some GREAT bits of dialogue.    It takes place 6 years after ROTJ.

That was the book that got me hooked on Star Wars and that's why I have enjoyed it ever since.   You can buy it from amazon for a few bucks.  Here is what it looks like:
http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=comics/dhswdarkempire1.jpg&text=Star%20Wars:%20Dark%20Empire%201

Here is the cover to the fifth issue with his clones:
http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=comics/dhswdarkempire5.jpg&text=Star%20Wars:%20Dark%20Empire%205

Bram is there a way to post the picture of the fifth cover here?

OH yeah, Palpatine is a badass with a lightsabre in that too.

[Machinus]

I actually believe his offer to Luke was genuine, as well. And for what it's worth, I think that if Padme would have said 'Oh, the hell with it...let's give it a shot' he would have tried it. And failed, because of his lack of experience. In the situation with Luke, I'm guessing he would have tried it, as well. And failed as well, this time because of a lack of knowledge. Don't think for a moment the Emperor didn't see Vaders little 'offer' to Luke coming all along. Now that I have seen all six movies, I am strengthened in my belief that right up to the moment where Luke throws down his lightsaber and says what basically amounts to 'fuck you', everything goes exactly according to Palpatine's plans.

Yes. Palpatine was in control of the entire galaxy until Jedi. There is way too much disagreement about this.

If Plagueis was the first Sith powerful enough to influence the mini-chlorians to create life, would it be such a leap of faith to think that Plagueis 'concieved' Anakin? This for me puts Palpatine's interest in the young boy in a whole now light. Also, I think it's a fairly important question if Anakin was the product of the Force or of the Dark Side in particular.

I very strongly opposed to one aspect of this idea - that Palpatine was Anakin's "father." Palpatine was a very powerful seer like other Sith before him, but it doesn't make sense for Palpatine to create his own apprentice in the way that Anakin was created. It is a far better to take Qui-Gonn literally, and say that The Force itself bore Anakin in order to correct the imbalance of power started by the cunning and deception of Palpatine. The Emperor manipulated and used Anakin for his own ends, but even he could not see the ultimate end of either him or his apprentice.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I don't know a lot about swars.

But like it would rock if they did a shadow of hte empire movie/tv show, like with the storyline f rom the N64 game and the books.

[Smmenen]

I actually believe his offer to Luke was genuine, as well. And for what it's worth, I think that if Padme would have said 'Oh, the hell with it...let's give it a shot' he would have tried it. And failed, because of his lack of experience. In the situation with Luke, I'm guessing he would have tried it, as well. And failed as well, this time because of a lack of knowledge. Don't think for a moment the Emperor didn't see Vaders little 'offer' to Luke coming all along. Now that I have seen all six movies, I am strengthened in my belief that right up to the moment where Luke throws down his lightsaber and says what basically amounts to 'fuck you', everything goes exactly according to Palpatine's plans.

Yes. Palpatine was in control of the entire galaxy until Jedi. There is way too much disagreement about this.

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here.  Palpatine was ruling the galaxy, but he didn't have an iron grip until Episode IV.

If Plagueis was the first Sith powerful enough to influence the mini-chlorians to create life, would it be such a leap of faith to think that Plagueis 'concieved' Anakin? This for me puts Palpatine's interest in the young boy in a whole now light. Also, I think it's a fairly important question if Anakin was the product of the Force or of the Dark Side in particular.

I very strongly opposed to one aspect of this idea - that Palpatine was Anakin's "father." Palpatine was a very powerful seer like other Sith before him, but it doesn't make sense for Palpatine to create his own apprentice in the way that Anakin was created. It is a far better to take Qui-Gonn literally, and say that The Force itself bore Anakin in order to correct the imbalance of power started by the cunning and deception of Palpatine. The Emperor manipulated and used Anakin for his own ends, but even he could not see the ultimate end of either him or his apprentice.

But Palpatine isn't - Plagueis is.  Even if Plagueis caused the midichlorians to conceive Anakin, I don't think that takes away too much from the Prophesy of the one.  The question raised by this film is what the prophesy means precisely.  What is balance?  Does balance mean that the Sith would be destroyed?  Or does it mean an equal distribution of dark and light side users?  At the end of Episode III there are exactly two sith and two jedi.  Is that what is meant by balance?  Or is the actions of Vader at the end of Episode VI what is meant by fullfilling the prophesy?  I tend to think the former - particularly given the conversation between Yoda and Mace Windu.

Palpatine saw one end, but he couldn't see all ends.  The rebel plan wasn't that Luke would kill the Emperor.  Luke was a destraction.  The plan was that the fleet would blow up the Death Star and take Luke, Anakin, and Palpatine with them.  Leia would presumably become a Jedi then.  Luke's goal was to face the Emperor and his father as a full Jedi.  He even told the Emperor - "soon I'll be dead and you with me." 

There are unresolved ambiguities in these films.

Another question of note is the true extent of Palpatine's powers.  In the novelization of Episode III, Dooku describes palpatine as an "Event horizon" in the force.  Even seen through the power of the dark side, Palpatine reveals absolutely nothing in the force.  Whereas, Obi-Wan is described as a sunlit meadow of the force, and Anakin as a storm cloud that threatens a tornado.  Obviously, Palpatine must have tremendous powers of desguise to hide from so many powerful Jedi on the seat of the Republic, but just how powerful is he revealed to be here? Palpatine is able to sense that Vader is in danger half a galaxy away.  Windu also kicks Palpatine's saber out of his hand a moment before Anakin arrives.  That is appears to be no coincidence. 

One other question is the extent to which the Separatist leaders knew of Sidious.  In Episode II, Dooku says that Nute Gunray told him that the Senate was in the control of Darth Sidious.  Dooku clearly knows the identify of Sidious, but the Separatist leaders appear not to know in Episode III when they talk about the Chancellor's kidnapping.