Kiki-Jiki

[Moxlotus]

from Mike Zaun:

"At the end of my opponent's turn, clone the Lackey so that I get to keep the token and attack with him, then I copy Lackey again during my turn and attack with three Lackeys, dump my hand - that's usually just game."

Can someone explain this to me? 

[Komatteru]

Kiki-Jikki's sacrifice trigger happens at end of turn -- meaning it triggers at the very beginning of the end step.  If you activate it during the end step--i.e., after the game has checked for all "at end of turn" tiggers--then the sacrifice won't happen until the next end step.  It's similar to how you can activate Memory Jar on your opponent's end step, play instants from that hand EOT, and untap with that new hand.

[Webster]

One of the problems that people have when dealing with "end of turn" effects is distinguishing between "at end of turn" and "until end of turn".

"At end of turn" is the first step in the End phase of a turn. If a spell/effect does something "at end of turn", this means that there will be some sort of triggered ability going onto the stack once a turn leaves the second main phase but before the turn is over. "At end of turn" is a point in turn progression; if a spell/ability puts a triggered ability on the stack, it will do so when the next "at end of turn" happens.

"Until end of tun" is the last part of the end phase of a turn. This point in time is where spells/effects that say "~foo~ until end of turn" stop happening (ex. giant growth) and where damage wears off. Neither player can play spells/abilities at this time; this is where the turn ends and the next begins.

So, when dealing with kiki-jiki which says to sacrifice the copy "at end of turn", what your opponent was saying is that he'll wait for the "at end of turn trigger" to go onto the stack, and then use kiki-jiki to make a copy of his goblin lackey. Since the "at end of turn" trigger for your turn has gone onto the stack, the game will have to wait until the next "at end of turn trigger" before kiki-jiki's "sacrifice the copied creature" will happen.


David Ochoa

[Juggernaut GO]

what was even more shitty is when he kiki jiki on my duplicant in round 7 to kill my welder, but i am a tool and didnt actually read the card and let it happen.  he won that game due to committing an illegal move that he HAD to of known about.

[empathogen]

I think he's referring to the fact that Kiki-Jiki can only target creatures you control, not those controlled by another player.

[Komatteru]

I deleted my original post, since it just clogged the thread up.  Apparently I didn't know how Kiki-Jiki worked either....

[nottom]

what was even more shitty is when he kiki jiki on my duplicant in round 7 to kill my welder, but i am a tool and didnt actually read the card and let it happen.  he won that game due to committing an illegal move that he HAD to of known about.

Yeah, he made a mistake in a game that should have even been played becasue you were both guarenteed spots in the top 8.

I know for a fact that it was an honest mistake, becasue although he has been a "pro" player in the past he really hasn't played much MTG since Kamigawa and was using a proxied up Kiki during his testing which consisted of just goldfishing to see how he worked out (and therefore never involved actual opponents or their creatures). Additionally when the incident occured, there were not 1, not 2, but 3 judges watching the game in question and not one of them caught it either.

[Cross]

So with Ideas Unbound you can play it at the end of your opponents turn and because it says at end of turn you don't discard until the end of your turn?

[Matt]

No, because Ideas Unbound is a sorcery. If it were an instant, that would work (which is probably why they made it a sorcery!).

[epeeguy]

No, because Ideas Unbound is a sorcery. If it were an instant, that would work (which is probably why they made it a sorcery!).

That and the potential interaction with Isochron Scepter.

[Tristal]

So with Ideas Unbound you can play it at the end of your opponents turn and because it says at end of turn you don't discard until the end of your turn?

If you had a Vedalken Orrery out in order to do this, that would be correct.

[Cross]

I guess reading the card would be good. Also, this card sucks now.

[Ephraim]

I guess reading the card would be good. Also, this card sucks now.

No, sir, I think you're wrong about that. There are plenty of combo decks where drawing three cards for {U} is going to contribute to them never having to worry about that pesky drawback at the end of the turn.

[Matt]

Not to mention that you can still use it on an empty hand for the Three Wishes aspect, or to fuel Odyssey block mechanics.

[49 Cents]

Not to mention that you can still use it on an empty hand for the Three Wishes aspect, or to fuel Odyssey block mechanics.

So this basically means that you can pump your Rootwalla at opponents eot and then do it again in your turn, making it 5/5?

[Limbo]

Not to mention that you can still use it on an empty hand for the Three Wishes aspect, or to fuel Odyssey block mechanics.

So this basically means that you can pump your Rootwalla at opponents eot and then do it again in your turn, making it 5/5?

No, Matt suggested here that you can use Ideas Unbound to reach threshold faster, or pitch anger / wonder in the yard.

Basking Rootwalla has an ability that is worded "until end of turn". These effects always end at the end of the turn, whereas abilities worded with the phrase "At end of turn, do ~this~" can actually be delayed one turn by the trick mentioned above (using the ability after the "At end of turn trigger").