[Discussion] Best deck hosers

[Shade]

What are the current best deck hosers against the top Vintage decks?  For example:

VS. CS
Rack and Ruin
Ground Seal
Energy Flux

VS. TPS
Arcane Laboratory
Stifle

And so on...?

[xrizzo]

As an oath player, I can say I hate seeing:

Spawning Pit
Goblin Bombardment
Claws of Gix

They all work fairly well, but the real problem is Smokestack.  Stax can sac your tokens while you sac your precious permanents.  You should calculate ahead of time whether you can win this race.  (assume your non-basics will get hit with wasteland) 

[Eddie]

What are the current best deck hosers against the top Vintage decks?  For example:

VS. CS
Rack and Ruin
Ground Seal
Energy Flux

I can assure you: Energy Flux is not a good hoser against CS. I'm actually glad if they play the flux when I'm playing CS cause it means the better hosers aren't in the deck. Rack and Ruin is questionable too. I would never side in R&R against CS. Better hosers are Lava Dart and Phyrexian Furnace.

[MvdB]

Obviously, the best deck hosers against the top Vintage decks depends on the deck you're playing yourself. Also, a lot of different decks are good at the moment, so choosing your hosers is a search for the cards to do well against decks you have a unfavorable match up against. For TPS and control decks you've got to love Chains of Mephistopheles 

Greetz,

Menno

[Shade]

What are the current best deck hosers against the top Vintage decks?  For example:

VS. CS
Rack and Ruin
Ground Seal
Energy Flux

I can assure you: Energy Flux is not a good hoser against CS. I'm actually glad if they play the flux when I'm playing CS cause it means the better hosers aren't in the deck. Rack and Ruin is questionable too. I would never side in R&R against CS. Better hosers are Lava Dart and Phyrexian Furnace.

Why play Lava Dart over Lightning Bolt if you're not running any basic mountains?

Why Furnace over Seal?

Why no R&R?

[Bob The Builder]

Why play Lava Dart over Lightning Bolt if you're not running any basic mountains?

I do not understand the reason of this question, Volcanic Island is just as good as a basic mountain.

Why Furnace over Seal?

Knowing Eddie, I believe he is speaking from personal experience.  Also, Furnace is twice a problem in comparison with Ground Seal.  Furnace can remove cards from the graveyard, where seal only shuts off access to the grave...

Why no R&R?

My answer to this one: Welder

[MvdB]

Most decks with any kind of graveyard manipulation (also a LOT in tournament play today) don't like the good old Tormod's Crypt

[Eddie]

Why play Lava Dart over Lightning Bolt if you're not running any basic mountains?

I'll skip this one. (note: you can take out 2 welders with one dart)

Why Furnace over Seal?

I NEVER stated that I'd take Furnace over Ground Seal. I stated that Furnace and Dart are better hate cards than Rack and Ruin and Energy Flux. If you'd read my post, you can see that I don't talk about Ground Seal.

Why no R&R?

Bob explained this in part. It is also basically the same reason for flux. You see Control Slaver as an artifact heavy deck. Whilst it actually is a control deck that does some graveyard / artifact tricks. Slaver has the same amount of artifacts in play as most control decks with 5 moxen. You sideboard against slaver the same way you should sideboard against workshop decks. Any slaver player can play around Rack and Ruin and Energy Flux any day.

[Toad]

Stifle is also rather bad against TPS because by the time they are casting Tendrils of Agony, they should have resolved Duress or have Force of Will in hand.

And as It as already mentionned, Rack and Ruin and Energy Flux are bad against Slaver.

[Shade]

So, then, the best hate cards to run against Slaver are:

Ground Seal
Lava Dart
Phyrexian Furnace
Red Elemental Blast

And against TPS...basically...Lab?

What is R&R good against?

[silencebringer]

As a CS player, I know the one card I hate seeing more than any other is ground seal. Tormond's crypt and withered wretch aren't pretty, either. Energy flux isn't a problem, overall, and rack and ruin is just a temporary setback, especially with an active welder.

[Freelancer]

VS. TPS:
Chalice of the void set at 0 (first turn) or 1
Orim's chant
Null rod


Rack and ruin is solid against for instance stax and other artifact heavy decks, same for energy flux.

[Shade]

So, is Arcane Lab inferior to Chalice against TPS?

[the boogie man]

I highly doubt that it is inferior, just alittle slower. but TPS has a much harder time against lab, since rebuild doesn't take it out.

[MvdB]

VS. TPS:
Chalice of the void set at 0 (first turn) or 1
Orim's chant
Null rod


Rack and ruin is solid against for instance stax and other artifact heavy decks, same for energy flux.

And what about Chains of Mephistopheles against TPS? Without the draw-7's they'll probably won't go off, isn't?

[crazynlazy]

VS. TPS:
Chalice of the void set at 0 (first turn) or 1
Orim's chant
Null rod


Rack and ruin is solid against for instance stax and other artifact heavy decks, same for energy flux.

And what about Chains of Mephistopheles against TPS? Without the draw-7's they'll probably won't go off, isn't?

combo doesn't generally have that hard of a time going off without draw7's although chains can be good a against combo. what about meddling mage that is a pretty good hoser in general.

[Freelancer]

Chain's actually gives combo a rough time, but only when it comes down turn 1 or 2 before there draw engine comes online. When they have set up, TPS and the like usually can go off without draw 7's utilizing tutors and yawgmoth's will (almost all combo decks, I can imagine meandeck SX and draw7 having a rough time) or necropotence. I have never had it played against me though (and I never played it against a combo player) so this is merely speculation.

Meddling mage is a hoser for nearly every deck out there (except maybe burn and gobbo's and even there its reasonably good), the perfect foil for it is most of the time tinker-colossus though. So you have to have something to back it up with (a swords or force for instance). It also doesn't stop yawgmoth's will against storm combo (the first thing you name should be tendrills of agony) and that still kills you (it allows the opponent to find a bounce spell).


Let me add some more:
VS Oath;
Any form of enchantment removal
Any form of a sacrifice outlet for there tokens and a kill that doesn't rely on having a creature in play for more than 2 turns. (Spawning pit is a good example)

VS Fish;
Old man of the sea's
Lava dart
Other cards I can't think of at the moment.

Oh and you might want to edit your original post to include some of these, makes the thread look a bit better.

[Whatever Works]

Howabout this...
Serenity
Vs.
Almost anything especially Stax

OR

In The Eye of Chaos vs. anything that runs blue!
Those are probably the 2 most underutilized cards in magic but not running serenity because it is white is a fair reason.

[MvdB]

I guess that the new bomb Pithing Needle deserves the title best deck hoser   

Greetz,

Menno

[Smmenen]

Against Combo:
Null Rod
Chalice
Lab
Sphere of Resistence

Against Workshops:
back to basics
Energy Flux
Rack and Ruin
Rebuild

Against Control:
Choke
Chains of Mephistopheles

[ELD]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a fan of "hosers."  If you assume a card is going to win the game for you all by itself it often does exactly the opposite.  Take a look at a skilled TPS player vs 3sphere to see what I mean.  These are my sideboard choices when running slaver and similar decks. 

Vs Storm Combo I like Duress.  It strips their hand and lets you know how to play the game out.  While other cards may be stronger, I find that they can be played around.  Duress also allows for preventing the old stalling tactic.  If I know your hand, I know exactly what your choices are.  If you're taking an unreasonable amount of time, I will call a judge.  With chalice/sphere they still have outs, and they must play well to hit them.  This often results in a slower match, and justifiably so.  Duress keeps the clock in my favor, something hard to do when playing with a deck that can kill you in extra turns.  On top of Duress, I like a single Tormod's Crypt.  It prevents the ultimate top deck from happening, and forces them to be more conservative with their playstyle. 

Vs Dragon I'm a fan of multiple cards that each work on their own w/o being redundant.  Blood Moon is great at stopping bazaar and sometimes shutting off on color mana.  Crypt is great at stopping Squee and breaking the combo.  Purge is the same.  The reason I run both is Null Rod and Swarm.  If I'm expecting Oath, I'll sometimes have an Aether Spellbomb which can also come in.  This is better than a second crypt as it cycles itself. 

Vs Goblins I prefer Blue Blasts.  I know that seems obvious, but it is much better than the commonly seen Lava Dart.  Stopping Lackey is important, but countering Recruiter and Siege Gang is something Dart cannot do. 

Vs Aggro Decks I love Flametounge Kavu.  When Bird Sh*t or EBA try and win with small creatures, FTK destroys the plan.  It also changes the deck's game plan.  FTK is a very real win condition on his own, as opposed to Old Man of the Sea. 

Vs Workshop I run 3 Rack and Ruin.  It's been amazing.  Their plan is to get down multiple artifacts.  My plan is to cast rack and ruin. 

Vs Oath I actually like Duress more than anything else.  I have a maindeck echoing truth, so I often do not bring much in vs them.  Duressing their opening hand more often then not wins the game as their drawing ability is usually not made for the long term. 

To sum things up

Duress - if their hand matters
FTK -  if the board matters