Oath

[the boogie man]

What are you guys' sideboards looking like then, with 3 seals ans three needles? keep in mind that I keep 4 sb slots open for a c-wish. which one would you guys run in a bind? I know that ground seal is better against dragon and control slaver, but what else is needle good against that ground seal isn't? is wasteland that large a problem?

it seems that pithing needle is worse than ground seal in the matches you want to bring it in, and it doesn't do enough in the matches where it doesn't. against wastelands, do you really want to be siding out cards to shut down wastelands?

[Shade]

What are you guys' sideboards looking like then, with 3 seals ans three needles? keep in mind that I keep 4 sb slots open for a c-wish. which one would you guys run in a bind? I know that ground seal is better against dragon and control slaver, but what else is needle good against that ground seal isn't? is wasteland that large a problem?

it seems that pithing needle is worse than ground seal in the matches you want to bring it in, and it doesn't do enough in the matches where it doesn't. against wastelands, do you really want to be siding out cards to shut down wastelands?

I tried really hard to get CWish too work, but it was just too expensive 95% of the time and ended up being FoW fodder far more often than not.

I haven't gotten a chance to test the Needles yet.  If they don't work, I'll probably put Chalices or something back in the 3 open SB slots.

[the boogie man]

But without c-wish, there is no answer to platz, or random counter magic, or card advantage. the reason I run the single c-wish is because it is really universal. need a draw spell? scrying. got a platz or a random artifact that you absolutely have to get rid of? naturalize. counter wall? misdirection. a combination of two permanents that make you lose the game? rushing river. and the best thing about this, though, is that each of the examples above are not uselessly sitting in the sideboard, because they are useful in the maindeck game 2 or 3.

[Shade]

But without c-wish, there is no answer to platz, or random counter magic, or card advantage. the reason I run the single c-wish is because it is really universal. need a draw spell? scrying. got a platz or a random artifact that you absolutely have to get rid of? naturalize. counter wall? misdirection. a combination of two permanents that make you lose the game? rushing river. and the best thing about this, though, is that each of the examples above are not uselessly sitting in the sideboard, because they are useful in the maindeck game 2 or 3.

Running a single wish was unreliable in testing for me.  That's another reason I maindeck Hydra now, too, to take care of Platz.  I also maindeck 2 MisDs.

Plus, my SB was weakened by trying to make it Wishable.  I now run 3 Labs, 3 Seals, 3 Needles, and 3 other creatures, all of which are unwishable.  The only Wish targets I have left are R&Rs, and I may as well just maindeck them if I'm that scared of Platz.

[zulander]

Hey, it's my first post(other than the intro). OK, here is the list I was able to test out and so far it is really helpful. It has enough control to get you out of undesired situations, and enough draw to get you out of a bad hand. This is for a proxy tournament, but you could easily take some of the stuff out for others if you aren't in a proxy tournament.

Oath Deck
Mana: 23
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxes

Oath Combo:7
4 Oath of Druid's
1 Akroma
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Gaea's Blessing

Card Draw / Tutoring / Extra Turn: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

Control: 14
3 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Echoing Truth


I don't really have a stable sideboard as I am still testing the main board out. I run counterspell over mana drain because I feel it is better in the deck as you really aren't playing anything on your turn a whole lot. Also, I am running 3 cotv maindeck so I run one less actual counter because of the ability the chalice gives me. I would like some strong suggestions for the sideboard though. Also, I also think that cunning wish is a bad idea for some reason, it feels way too cloggy for me. Hopefully I have been a real help to you guy's. Later.

[Deathisforyou]

this may sound a bit nieve, but whats the reasoning behind echoing truth, there are such better cards you could run in that slot?

[zulander]

That's not naive at all, it's a good question, the reasoning is in case of any thing that slips by my counterspell, or if I don't happen to have one when they cast a bomb, it's never too late. And it saves your critters from stp and can help in the match up against fish in case they get too many Ninja of the Deep Hour in play using the ninjitsu ability. It rounds out the deck if you will and has helped me in many situations to actually win the game, it can also help if you use the orchard too much, just bounce all the 1/1's with one card and boom, there you go.

[Shade]

If you play Chalice, you're typically going to be setting it for 0 or 1.  Too much of the deck is reliant on 2cc spells, including Oath itself.  That's another reason I run Rack and Ruins --  they're 3cc and can eliminate multiple Chalices.

As for Truth, it's good, but I found myself a few times facing bouncing my own Platz while trying to remove another from the board.  Overall, I've never been a big fan of bounce, anyway, especially since CS can just Drain something and recast the bugger anyway.

[zulander]

As Shade posted, chalice should be set at 1 or 0. I really like chalice at 1 because of TPS, it stops a lot of their deck, it doesn't kill their deck, it slows them down a couple of turns, exactly what you should need to pull out the win.

[the boogie man]

if that happens too often, why not just run rushing river? its at the 3 cc, and it takes out two permanents.

[Shade]

if that happens too often, why not just run rushing river? its at the 3 cc, and it takes out two permanents.

Well, basically, because I'd rather just run R&R at the same cost.

[the boogie man]

Is it worth it to further weaken the mana base to incorporate the red? not to mention, rushing river can also take out other things in a pinch, like random creatures, aether vial and a creature, a boseiju(hotness) and other stuff.

[Moxlotus]

Rushing River is also great against Meddling Mage (naming Oath) and isn't terrible against Dragon.

[zulander]

I think I might switch up the deck a little bit, maybee  - 2 Echoing Truth, +1 Rushing Rive +1 Gaea's Blessing. I need one more blessing due to the stifleous going around here. What do you guy's think?

[Shade]

For those who have been following along, here is my latest decklist:

1 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Oath of Druids

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Spirit of the Night

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak

2 Pithing Needle

2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Island
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
2 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Ground Seal
1 Iridescent Angel
2 Misdirection
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pristine Angel
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Twincast

I have added a pair of Needles to the MD in place of the 2 MisDs.  Both cards are situational, but the Needle seems frequently less dead than the MisDs.  Must be because of a primarily agrro-oriented environment around here.  It's also invaluable against Vial-oriented decks, especially those packing Meddling Mages.

I also added a Twincast to the SB, for fun if nothing else.  It takes the place of MisD #3 against those matchups where the Cast can really shine.

I really like the 3 creature configuration in the MD, and wonder why those who already run Akroma and Hydra don't run Spirit as well.  This gives you the ability to go into full beatdown mode still if you want, but gives you an answer to annoying creatures (Welder, Platz) that are commonly found, too.  I feel the deck is optimal with 3 creatures instead of two.  Must stem back from my Feeder/Weaver/Morphling days...

[Khahan]

I think I might switch up the deck a little bit, maybee  - 2 Echoing Truth, +1 Rushing Rive +1 Gaea's Blessing. I need one more blessing due to the stifleous going around here. What do you guy's think?

I think that's some of t he best tweaking you've done yet. I've found 2 effects to shuffle your graveyard back into your library is a must, if for no other reason than to avoid random losses due to drawing your reshuffle affect.

Also, Rushing River is much better than Echoing Truth in Oath in order to fight against chalice. A chalice for 2 and Oath is at a standstill for a long time. With a rushing river, you can get rid of that chalice. The other option would be to use the blue chain (casting cost 1). But that will normally be shut down anyway by another chalice.

[zulander]

I actually have made the transition to ubg oath because of late testing. The deck just didn't go off when I needed it to so I added black for some better tutoring effects. Here we go!

Mana:23
4 Polluted Delta
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 On color moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Draw/Tutor/Turn taker: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Control: 15
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

Oathness: 8
4 Oath
1 Akroma
1 Hydra
2 Gaea's Blessing

[Shade]

I actually have made the transition to ubg oath because of late testing. The deck just didn't go off when I needed it to so I added black for some better tutoring effects. Here we go!

Mana:23
4 Polluted Delta
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 On color moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Draw/Tutor/Turn taker: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Control: 15
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

Oathness: 8
4 Oath
1 Akroma
1 Hydra
2 Gaea's Blessing

I'm drooling at the prospect of playing against you using that mana base.

2 Blessings are really not needed.  I can see why you'd want a 2nd one in theory, but I have yet to lose a game due to only running one Blessing.  When I ran 2, I almost ALWAYS drew one.

AK w/o Intuition is garbage.  Just cut the AKs and add in the 3rd and 4th Thirsts and a pair of Intuitions.

Mana:24
4 Polluted Delta
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 On color moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Swamp
4 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Draw/Tutor/Turn taker: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Intuition

Control: 15
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void

Oathness: 7
4 Oath
1 Akroma
1 Hydra
1 Gaea's Blessing

[zulander]

I need 2 Blessing's due to the obsurd amount of stifles being played in my meta. It's crazy like what, and if I ever draw one I can just hard cast it and then blessing it back next upkeep. But thanks for some of the other help. And why is ak so bad on it's own?

[Shade]

I need 2 Blessing's due to the obsurd amount of stifles being played in my meta. It's crazy like what, and if I ever draw one I can just hard cast it and then blessing it back next upkeep. But thanks for some of the other help. And why is ak so bad on it's own?

AK is only good if at least 1 of them is already in the graveyeard.  W/o Intuition to put them there, that doesn't happen nearly frequently enough (especially if you're running 2 Blessings).  In fact, I'm not 100% sold on the idea that it's the best draw engine for the deck, but I haven't found a better one yet, so...

[zulander]

Maybee serum visions?

[Khahan]

I replaced my AK's with Serum Visions and was moderately happy with the results. Believe it or not, that sorcery speed KILLS a first turn SV.  But, the scrye 2 is extremely useful and it does replace itself.

If you are going that route, I'd suggest Sensei's divining top, though.

I'm probably removing the SV from my build.

[Oathofdruids]

You dont need a set of Mana Drains for the Oath deck.  What can you spend all that mana on without taking alot of mana burn?  What you also need is to run something to get your creatures back (i.e. Living Wish) because STP (swords to plowshares) wrecks this deck, trust me, I was there. (lost AT LEAST 10 tournaments because of that darn thing).  Either that or run stuff in the mainboard that cannot be target (i.e. the iridescent angel in the SB) or switch them in. Thats the best I can do.  OAth is one of the better decks for T1 because you dont really need alot of money to be good, unless your goin overboard.  Also, I would eliminate the Lotus petal (you need permanent mana in control i.e. sol ring or mana vault) and the black and keep it two colors. This will ensure no mana-screw. Hope this helps.

[Shade]

You dont need a set of Mana Drains for the Oath deck.  What can you spend all that mana on without taking alot of mana burn?  What you also need is to run something to get your creatures back (i.e. Living Wish) because STP (swords to plowshares) wrecks this deck, trust me, I was there. (lost AT LEAST 10 tournaments because of that darn thing).  Either that or run stuff in the mainboard that cannot be target (i.e. the iridescent angel in the SB) or switch them in. Thats the best I can do.  OAth is one of the better decks for T1 because you dont really need alot of money to be good, unless your goin overboard.  Also, I would eliminate the Lotus petal (you need permanent mana in control i.e. sol ring or mana vault) and the black and keep it two colors. This will ensure no mana-screw. Hope this helps.

Drains are useful if running the Intuition/AK engine, which I do.  Otherwise, I agree -- there's not much to Drain into if you're not running that engine.

STP can be a pain in the first match, but after that, you should be siding in some combination of Iridescent/Pristine Angel.  Living Wish is too clunky to run, being a sorcery, putting the creature in your hand, and being green.

Petal is in the deck for an early Drain/Counter.

I don't run black, but I run a couple Volcanics to splash Rack and Ruin in the SB.  I still run 4 basic Islands, so I think I'll be okay in that respect.

[the boogie man]

one really compact and affordable draw engine that oath can use is the skeletal scrying + 2 cunning wish one, running fact or fiction in the side. that takes up a lot less slots in the deck and provides a ton of draw. that takes up 5 slots while the other takes up 7, and this one can also be used to get instant speed answers without clouding your maindeck.

[oldbsturgeon]

while that is true, the intuitions will also let you get oath if you need it or orchard or anything else. cutting intuition completely probably isnt a good idea and at least 2 should remain. without drains, for instance, the scrying draw is probably the best the deck can hope for, as cards like serum visions dont cut it and thrist for knowledge is a little pricey.

[the boogie man]

Instead of running the intuitions as expensive tutors, why not just run vamp+mystical? and intuition-ak is just as slow as scrying without mana drain.

[Shade]

Instead of running the intuitions as expensive tutors, why not just run vamp+mystical? and intuition-ak is just as slow as scrying without mana drain.

Mystical can't fetch Oath or Orchard.

Scrying is the same speed as Intuition/AK, but you don't lose life and cards for Intuition/AK, and Scryings can't be pitched to FoW/MisD.

[the boogie man]

It is not the same speed, it is at least a turn faster, and you can cycle it early game, you don't have to draw a million cards with it.

[Shade]

It is not the same speed, it is at least a turn faster, and you can cycle it early game, you don't have to draw a million cards with it.

The life loss can really hurt.  People say it's negligible, but it has cost me some games when testing SS.  Remember, I'm powerless here, so the deck is a little slower, and really good aggro decks can still give it a hard time.

Btw, here is the version I'm currently running.  Aside from adding black or Power, what can I do to improve the deck, if anything?

1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Oath of Druids

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Spirit of the Night

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak

2 Pithing Needle

2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Island
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
2 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Ground Seal
1 Iridescent Angel
2 Misdirection
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pristine Angel
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Twincast

I'm running the red splash almost exclusively for Rack and Ruin.  I think I should be okay running 4 basics.

The MD is pretty set, with the exception of 2 slots, where the Needles curently reside.  I had MisD's there for a while, but against aggro, they're pretty much worthless.  At least the Needle is rarely a dead card.  I have the MisDs in the SB, as well as a Twincast to act as a 3rd MisD in the situations where it would be better.  I've actually considered cutting one R&R (though I like being able to Intuition for it in a pinch) to add a 2nd Twincast, giving me up to 16 counters in the deck.

I'm not completely sold on the Impulses, but am reluctant to cut them.  I want to have enough search in the deck.