[Discussion] STAX

[Astro]

Recently, 5 Stax decks made top 15 at the P9 SCG and Control Slaver was no where to be found.  I see Stax making a strong come back and wanted to discuss every thing from Trinisphere to Wasteland / Crucible lock.

Lets start with the creature set and win conditions, Karn and Trike have been the staple kill conditions.  I've seen splashes of Platinum Angel, Sundering Titan, Pentavus, Darksteel Colossus, and even yester years old school Time Vault as win conditions.  What is the optimal creature set?  Currently, I've been running Angel, Trike, and Karn.  Personally, I feel this is optimal, however what is the reasoning for running anything outside of this?

CoW / Strip effect lock*  A turn one Sphere of Resistance seems good, but the CoW / Strip - lock  isn't the monster it used to be without Trinisphere.  All five lists in the top 15 included Crucible / Strip - lock, however I remember old school Stax builds where it was said (and I fully agree) that the deck operates fine without the inclusion Wasteland.  As it is, the deck already has a lock.  Could the deck operate better by simply focusing on its main lock mechanism and omitting Crucible / Strip effects?  Now that Trinisphere has been restricted, it doesn't seem quite as necessary.  This being said, by ommiting 5 strip effects and 2-3 CoW's the deck could be retroactively upping its counterable threats by 5 and upping the total amount of open slots by 8.  These slots can be used for either establishing the main lock (removal, draw, counters) or  create pressure by upping the beat sticks with Juggernaught or Su-Chi's.  Has anybody toyed with?   Am I way off?

Removal slots*  Balance seems to be the main removal card in the 5 color builds, but what else is there?  Fire/Ice, Serrated Arrows, StP, Lava Dart,  ect..  One that I've been considering is Waterfront Bouncer.  Bounces creatures that usually can't be recast and discards artifacts.  Just a thought though.

Discuss.

 

[cssamerican]

I think the creature base is entirely dependent on the deck list. In builds without Goblin Welder and Thirst for Knowledge such as in Kevin and Steve’s version, Sundering Titan and Triskelion becomes a lot less attractive; however, in other builds they can be strong additions.

Wastelands keeps certain lands (Bazaar of Baghdad) in check and makes other cards in the deck stronger such as Sphere Of Resistance and In The Eye Of Chaos. CoW makes using those Wastelands much more reliable. With a CoW in play you no longer need to use tutors or hope to topdeck a second or third Wasteland much less a fifth or sixth one. CoW is protection for those Workshops. CoW also has great synergy with Smokestax itself. I just can’t see card not being included in Stax.

[Mixing Mike]

Currently, I've been running Angel, Trike, and Karna.  Personally, I feel this is optimal...

Why?  You never explain why your choices are better.  Karna and Sundering Titan fit into the Marna denial plan better than anything.  What good does Angel do?  As far as you're concerned

These slots can be used for either establishing the main lock (removal, draw, counters) or  create pressure by upping the beat sticks with Juggernaut or Si-Chi's.

If you look at Kevin's latest list, it runs In the Eye of Chaos and Chains of Me th.  These are far better than running more fat, and In the Eye of Chaos works very well with Wastelands and Marna-denial in general, which is what St ax is about in the first place (keeping your opponent from playing spells).  He has cut the Welderrs from his deck altogether.

This being said, by ommitting 5 strip effects and 2-3 CoW's the deck could be retroactively upping its counterable threats by 5 and upping the total amount of open slots by 8.

Why would you want to cut the Marna denial element of the deck when it's the element of the deck that it was originally designed upon?  Let's look at the cards that stunts your opponents manabase without any interaction from any other card.....

3-4 Tangle Wire
1 Strip Mine
1 Trinisphere
4 Wastelands
3-4 Sphere of Resistance
2-4 In the Eye of Chaos
1-2 Sundering Titan
1 Karna, Silver Golem

We're at 16-22 cards there that deny your opponents Marna.  Add in 3-4 Crucibles, and an active Smokestack and you've get the biggest Marna denial in the format.

Also, cutting crucible keeps you from attaining a lock on your opponent.  Not only does it help blow up their lands, but it also let's you re-use your Gemstones (lowering City of Brass damage), generate Marna with a Workshop and a Wasteland, as well as make your Smokestack for 1 one-sided in your favor.

Balance seems to be the main removal card in the 5 color builds, but what else is there?  Fire/Ice, Serrated Arrows, StP, Lava Dart,  ect...

Balance isn't just a removal spell.  More of than not it's used to Mind Twist your opponent after you've dropped a Shop along with 2 or 3 lock pieces, and a mox or two.  The fact that it can destroy creatures is almost a kicker effect in terms of the card's role within the deck, though it can be quite helpful at times.  Why bounce cards when you can keep them from being played in the first place, or just killing them off with Smokestack?

[Space_Stormy]

Well, I have already thought of this and designed a Stax-5/3 hybrid that has an efficient clock to back its lock components.  Here is what I have so far:

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ancient Tomb
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

4 Juggernaut
1 Platnul Angel
1 Triskellion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Duplucant
1 Razormane Masticore

2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinishpere
1 Smokestack
1 Hanna's Custody
1 Ancestrial Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Memory Jar
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Balance
1 Ancestrial Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sb:
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Spawning Pit
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Sundering Titan
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Arcane Labratory

I am not sure about the singletion Smokestack (I am thinking of removing the Enlightened and Mystical tutor for 2 more stacks) and the Sb needs some work, but it has been testing pretty well and I like it.

[Disburden]

With control running rampant right now, I honestly don't see any reason to not run Chains and In the Eye of Chaos maindecked. Those two cards together totally lock down the mana drain players draw spells, which is the most important part of all those drain based combo decks that are coming out (Gifted,etc). I run two of each main (anymore seemed to clog up my hand too early into the game) and I haven't looked back since then. You also seem to run too many creatures. Having one smokestack doesn't make much sense. It IS one of the main components of the decks design after all.

I also think Choke should be in all sideboards of the current stax builds.

[apoc7k]

With control running rampant right now, I honestly don't see any reason to not run Chains and In the Eye of Chaos maindecked. Those two cards together totally lock down the mana drain players draw spells, which is the most important part of all those drain based combo decks that are coming out (Gifted,etc). I run two of each main (anymore seemed to clog up my hand too early into the game) and I haven't looked back since then. You also seem to run too many creatures. Having one smokestack doesn't make much sense. It IS one of the main components of the decks design after all.

I also think Choke should be in all sideboards of the current stax builds.

About chains and In the Eye of Chaos, I really do agree. Considering the amount of counterspells and whatnot in the field right now, these two cards could make an interesting effect against the metagame. In the eye of chaos already makes force of will, misdirection, and an assortment of other spells useless because of the radical casting cost. Chains of Mephistopheles just shuts down draw... nuff said.

Now that I've stated common knowledge, I will end my reply and stop wasting your time... 

[Smmenen]

Kevin's stax does not use Tangle Wire, Goblin Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, Medititate or artifact creatures that you can't cast off a Workshop, mox and a land. 

[Revvik]

Which means less dead cards in an opening hand. 
Chains of Mephisophomelephemes (fuck it, he's Mr. M now) was already established as an excellent hoser for control decks that are draw-heavy, but the latest addition (In the Eye of Chaos) is surprisingly stronger, especially when combined with all the other goodies of the Stax deck.  There is no sorcery speed draw in this format (Ophidians have ceased to exist, and Standstill shouldn't be an issue due to the fast threats of the new breed of Stax), and Fact or Fiction can't even help as it did against Chains of M.

Makes me want to justify buying 4 Workshops.

Seems to be more mulligan-dependent, and the lack of Triskelion and Sundering Titan taxes people who were reliant on fat that could kill while the opponent struggled with a partial lock, but skill rewards better with this deck than most I've seen.  And Goblin Welder is for chumps, especially when almost everyone playing Vintage right now seems to be gunning for him.

I also really like the heavier focus on enchantments than before, since they're more "permanent" these days.

[Disburden]

.  And Goblin Welder is for chumps, especially when almost everyone playing Vintage right now seems to be gunning for him.

I wouldn't be as bold as to say people that play Welders are chumps, but I do agree that any build with Welders just seems like a stray from what an optimal Stax build should be running in today's Meta. Kron's Stax decklist from SCG for example shows us that you can lock your opponent down and not have to be all flashy about it for several turns welding junk in a out. His build basically says, "I'm going to lock you soon. What are you going to do about it?" and that's it. Welders to me just seems like flashy tricks, alot like what Toad said about welders in the recent Gifts discussion. Why would anyone try to be all tricky and pizazz your opponent when you can just win in a more simple and straight forward manor?

[Sean Ryan]

In response to some of the recent comments on welder and to the differences in the various builds at SCG Richmond:

I will not argue with Kevin Cron’s experience, he is a master of the Stax archetype.   However, the choice not to run welder or any real draw demands a higher level of proficiency, perhaps even mastery.  For a less skilled player the traditional builds maybe a better choice.

 One question I have for Kevin or Steve is: how much of the no-welder strategy is based upon the little guy being hated out and/or  how much of it is based upon a being “objectively” superior?  Where I think I would miss welders the most is against other Workshop decks.  From my experience these matches came usually came down to Welder superiority or who could go most broken.

 Steve/Kevin - Did this ever become an issue in against other Shop decks?  What about the lack of Tangle Wire, how did you handle aggro-control?

Dropping welders, Thirsts, & big effects (Titan) have both advantages and disadvantages.  The fact that a more traditional build placed 6th (David Allen?)  is testament to positive variation.  I think that keeping the 5+ casting spells to an absolute minimum is a move in the right direction but, the massive power of Titan against multi-colored control may be to much to give up until the meta swings back to more basics.     

Currently, I am working on a build without Sphere of Resistance.  It has always been my least favorite lock piece because of its symmetry.  I also want to drop CotV at 2 consistently.  I am also looking at Uba Mask in place of Chains but without the Bazaars, which are often dead..  To weld or not to weld, that is the question.

The Stax archetype is the most exciting thing in Vintage deck design right now, I’m surprised more hasn’t been said yet.

Thanks
Sean

[Smmenen]

In response to some of the recent comments on welder and to the differences in the various builds at SCG Richmond:

I will not argue with Kevin Cron’s experience, he is a master of the Stax archetype.   However, the choice not to run welder or any real draw demands a higher level of proficiency, perhaps even mastery.  For a less skilled player the traditional builds maybe a better choice.

 One question I have for Kevin or Steve is: how much of the no-welder strategy is based upon the little guy being hated out and/or  how much of it is based upon a being “objectively” superior?  Where I think I would miss welders the most is against other Workshop decks.  From my experience these matches came usually came down to Welder superiority or who could go most broken.

 Steve/Kevin - Did this ever become an issue in against other Shop decks?  What about the lack of Tangle Wire, how did you handle aggro-control?

Dropping welders, Thirsts, & big effects (Titan) have both advantages and disadvantages.  The fact that a more traditional build placed 6th (David Allen?)  is testament to positive variation.  I think that keeping the 5+ casting spells to an absolute minimum is a move in the right direction but, the massive power of Titan against multi-colored control may be to much to give up until the meta swings back to more basics.     

Currently, I am working on a build without Sphere of Resistance.  It has always been my least favorite lock piece because of its symmetry.  I also want to drop CotV at 2 consistently.  I am also looking at Uba Mask in place of Chains but without the Bazaars, which are often dead..  To weld or not to weld, that is the question.

The Stax archetype is the most exciting thing in Vintage deck design right now, I’m surprised more hasn’t been said yet.

Thanks
Sean

Having experience with all types of Stax (remember I've also been playing it since it was first tuned in Vintage), I can say that I think the non-Welder version is objectively superior.  The combo isn't Stax and Welder: it's Crucible and Stax and broken cards.  Sphere of Resistence is crucial to the deck becuase it is a turn one play.  Mox, Land Sphere.  Mox, Land, Chains.  The deck MUST have a turn one play.  That's one reason Kevin's list is so good.  All you need is a Mox or a Workshop and you can drop a turn one lock component,

[thorme]

Yes, Sphere of Resistance is an absolute must.

Any Stax deck should be able to drop a lock component on turn 1 with a Workshop draw - that is a given.   One key thing to look for when looking at a list is what the plan is when no workshop shows up in a starting hand.  This is where welder shines - for 1 mana he makes opponent's counterspells (and artifact removal for that matter) ineffective.  It is also the reason Gorilla shaman is so good - he is wonderful mana denial for 1 red.

As I said over in the SCG daily discussion, I prefer the Eye/Chains version in a mana-drain-dominated environment, and my welder version in a workshop-heavy environment like Richmond.

[Astro]

Having experience with all types of Stax (remember I've also been playing it since it was first tuned in Vintage), I can say that I think the non-Welder version is objectively superior.

I don't have anywhere near the experience with the deck however if you remember correctly the original builds (pre MUD, CoW, and Trinisphere) didn't run Strip effects as they were deemed unnecessary.  The other day I busted out my old outdated build (the build that ran no Wastes, Trinisphere, or Crucible) in a couple friendly games with a buddy of mine and surpisingly went 4 - 1 against Control Slaver and then went 4 - 0 against EBA.  Going back to the roots of the deck is this an area that could possibly be explored?  Or is it deemed so out-dated its not even worth testing?  I have to say I was really impressed that it could keep up with Slaver.

And what are the thoughts on Doug Goddards Welder build which ran main deck Phyrexian Furnace?

One last question, for what reason is Brainstorm not maindecked in both Welder and non Welder versions?  Is this due to the lack of Fetchies for reshuffling?

[Disburden]

Yes, way back when Stax was first developed there wasn't any wastelands or crucible of worlds in the deck. But then crucible came out in mirrodin block and now there just doesn't seem like any good reason to not run strips.

In all seriousness what is the reasoning to not run strips besides it makes the list look more original and out of the normal mold? I have won countless games with just wasting, striping, and that's all. This was of course after a lock piece was on the board, but without those strips, I wouldn't have won those games.

I'm going to list off a few cards in stax. I would like you to explain how they work better without crucible and strips in the maindeck:

4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of resistance
1 Trinisphere
2-3 In the eye of chaos

All of these cards do a better job when stripping your opponent continuously. They deny mana and make their spells more expensive to play, correct? So why would you want to let them play land?

[Whatever Works]

The key to STAX that everyone is forgetting is the fundemental rule of 5c stax. That is that every single card in the deck either is a permanent/lockpiece OR it finds a permanent/lockpiece. Welder doesnt do much for the deck because it rarely helps you weld (you dont want lock pieces in your graveyard), and it forces you to run non-lock pieces to be effective.

In the eye of chaos as anything more then a 2 of is a mistake. It is a good card and I ran it with great success at waterbury (in the sideboard) about a month ago, but having multiples in play cant happen. It is a mid/late game shut down card (though doing it 1st turn as smennen said is great).

Having said this the reason this version is better then its welder counterpart is because its ability to win over 80% of games it goes first on (NO JOKE)... This deck on the play does not lose much and Smennen/Chains will confirm the % if not say its a little bit higher. However its really dependent on the metagame. When Pithing needle becomes legal this deck should be an absolute house (along with oath again), because that card solves alot of issues.

5c stax plays almost exactly like old keeper. So I know that several people who have spent time on the deck (me, smennen, chains, clown of thresherhorn) have looked at old keeper list etc. The deck is tight and all real progession is focused in the board where you can argue about several things. For example I am a huge fan of boarding Hanna's custody to shut down welder etc. and stop R&R's being boarded in vs. every deck. Compared to something like meddling mage.

Here is my most recent list as a good benchmark for the deck: I been playing it for over 2 months before richmond but im not on meandeck so it odviously wont get the same attention (which in there case is to there benefit because they caught alot of people off guard).

// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    4  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    2  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Balance
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Chains of Mephistopheles
    3  Chalice of the Void
    1  Crop Rotation
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Demonic Tutor
    2  In the Eye of Chaos
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    2  Seal of Cleansing
    4  Smokestack
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    1  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Tinker
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void
SB: 1  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Choke
SB: 2  Hanna's Custody
SB: 2  Meddling Mage
SB: 2  Ray of Revelation
SB: 2  Rule of Law
SB: 2  Viashino Heretic

[racetraitor]

I'd be interested in the reasoning behind removing Tangle Wire from the deck. Not enough impact, not enough room or do you feel that In The Eye Of Chaos does its job better? I'm a bit worried about the low number of artifacts in the deck, you used to always want a Workshop in your starting hand but now they seem more like a burden sometimes. Could we come to a point were Ancient Tombs would actually be a better substitute?

[Disburden]

I'd be interested in the reasoning behind removing Tangle Wire from the deck. Not enough impact, not enough room or do you feel that In The Eye Of Chaos does its job better? I'm a bit worried about the low number of artifacts in the deck, you used to always want a Workshop in your starting hand but now they seem more like a burden sometimes. Could we come to a point were Ancient Tombs would actually be a better substitute?

Well, tangle wire is the weakest lock piece stax runs. Also look at the list, we aren't talking about a list with welders, no welders means no wires. Plus in the eye of chaos and chains are 5000 times better.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I propose that these Welderless Stax decks use a new name as I feel its an entirely different archetype and I also don't see the Welders losing total popularity anytime soon.  I guess it could be called Welderless Stax, but that sounds retarded imo.

It's still stax. The combo is based ons smokestack and Crucible.

Ever since Cron cut welders in his Cuse list, Godot and I have been testing versions of his deck, and the results have been stunning. Like Whatever Works stated, welders simply don't lock your opponent. They do cute tricks with smokestack, but if you resolve a smokestack, you're in a winning position anyway. As far as tangle wires go, they are the weakest lock piece against combo and control. Combo can just rebuild on their turn and win, and control can just cast all their gamebreaking instants (like gifts/intuition) on their upkeep. Sphere/Chalice makes sure that the opponent will never reach that critical 3-4 mana inorder to cast spells like drain/rebuild/gifts. I'm not saying tangle wire is bad (look at David Allen's list from richmond; in fact, it's much better than chalice against stuff like fish), it's just not the call when gifts.dec and decks that run off moxen are the best decks.

ITEOC is a great card. Running 2 is the perfect number, as you rarely get 3 non-shop mana on turn 1, and you have tutors to get it if you need it. The card absolutely slaughters combo (they simply cannot generate enough mana through ritual and see enough cards to win when their cheapest instant costs atleast 2) and shuts off drain vs. control (and as an added bonus, also makes gifts unplayable). It's certainly not a central lock piece, but it buys you time to find that smokestack.

Chains of Mephistopheles. This card is pretty amazing. The one card it completely shuts down is brainstorm. Under ITEOC, the control player can still cast brainstorm and find those crucial lands/moxes and play enough permanents to get back into the game. With chains out, your opponents hand size will never increase. Also, because it costs 1B, you can bait with it.  For instance, many bad players will counter chains while you have a shop untapped and a waste in the yard. Because it's so cheap, it allows you to play multiple threats in one turn.

As far as chalice goes, I can't see why Meandeck decided to go with three. In testing, the card is AMAZING. Abot 90% of the time, it comes down at 0, slowing down your opponent's ability to ramp up to 3-4 mana by turn 2. The only competitive deck that isn't hurt by chalice 0 is fish, a deck that you crush anyways. Plus, chalice 0 followed by crucible strip IS a hard lock. @Cron and Smmenen - Is the reason you went down to 3 chalice because you're only on the play half the time? Or is it because of space issues?

Also, I'd just like to address how much I love Cron's Sideboard. It's the perfect foil to what others might be boarding in against you. In testing we had issues with Oath postboard (before the SB was posted), but now, your threats are all enchantments, instants and creatures, making their Energy fluxes, Back to basics, and oxidizes useless. The same is true against decks like CS. Rack and Ruin sure as hell doesn't hit ground seal/Choke. Casting colored spells wasn't an issue either as 5cStax runs 28 mana sources, and only 4 of which are workshop.

I'd just like to say that Cron's list IS pretty much close to optimal. He lost only three or four matches between Cuse, Chicago, and Richmond. Now that's 3 different metagames that he played with a welderless stax list, where he made top 16.

-Bob

[Luiggi]

Given Roland Chang's excellent performance with Stax this past weekend at the StarCity tournament in Chicago, I figured I'd bump the thread. Here's the deck he played:

Stax – Roland Chang

1 Black Lotus
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
3 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Swords To Plowshares
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

1 Barbarian Ring
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
3 Chalice Of The Void
1 Jester's Cap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Choke
2 Seal Of Cleansing
3 Red Elemental Blast

Since I'm assuming other Meandeckers ran this same build, I was hoping someone could talk about the evolution from the In The Eye of Chaos builds that were being used a while back to this current one, the reasons for the shift, etc., as well as how everyone else who ran it did in Chicago.

Since Roland didn't lose a single game until the top-4 (from what I understood on the SC coverage), the deck certainly seems powerful, and I think some discussion is warranted, given the huge diversity in Workshop decks that we now have, from this build to Robert Vroman's Uba Stax to something like Workshop Aggro.

Congrats to Roland again, and hopefully we'll have some good discussion.

Luiggi

[Prometheon]

All this talk about Chains of Mephistopheles and In the Eye of Chaos has got me thinking more and more about Uba Mask.

Doesn't Uba Mask perform the role of BOTH of these cards?

Chains of Mephistopheles ruins draw spells, a role that Uba also fills (although admittedly, slightly worse.)

In the Eye of Chaos ruins instants (especially FoW, Mis-D, Gifts and Mana Drain), a role that Uba also fills (The only problem is that it does not ruin the instants they may already be holding in hand, and has less of an optimal effect on gifts.)

With that said, do you think that the subtle advantages Chains and Eye have over Uba are worth their colored casting costs and 'un-workshopability' (menaing they can't be cast with workshop mana)?

[Luiggi]

Well, Rob Vroman clearly figured that Uba Stax's "Workshopability" was worth it, and it's certainly served him well. I think the synnergy it has with Workshops and Bazaars is huge, and if you're running a deck that can fully take advantage of the Mask, it's probably better. The question is whether you'd run it in something like Roland's build.

I'm also pretty curious as to why Meandeck abandoned their Chains/In-the-Eye Stax build (if no one was running it last weekend, something I'm not sure of) in favor of a more traditional 5-Color Stax like Roland ran...

Luiggi

[Prometheon]

Yeah it's funny that people are eschewing Welder as an 'unneccessary component' and yet the Stax builds that are T8ing are running the full 4 welders.

Welder is:

1) Inevitability. If an active welder is in play, the tricks you can perform with Trike, Titan and other artifacts will be overpowering.

2) Counterbait. If there was a spell that cost R and said "Target opponent discards their FoW and another blue card from their hand" it would probably be run. Welder does this and more.

3) I feel this is actually one of the most important points: Welder ruins Tinker/Collossus; an engine that nearly every deck with blue in it is running these days. It also helps the mirror match in Game 1 (an uphill battle if you're on the draw) significantly.

Yes, he dies to lava dart, but is that really a reason not to run the little goblin?

[Smmenen]

Recently, 5 Stax decks made top 15 at the P9 SCG and Control Slaver was no where to be found. 

What the hell are you talking about?  THREE Control slaver decks made top 8.  They all just lost to a different Stax list. 

[Luiggi]

I think he was referring to an older StarCity tournament, Smmenen, since his post is from June 1st...

Luiggi

[cssamerican]

He wasn't talking about the Chicago event, I beleive he was refering to Rochester. Someone bump this thread, look at the date on his post.
Edit: I was beat to the punch

[Dante]

This is what happens when people resurrect month-old threads.  There's a current thread on both Uba Stax and on 5cStax, if you want to discuss, either of those is probably the best place.  Or if you have a different topic or take on things, start a new thread. 

Morale of the Story - don't bump month old threads.   

[Luiggi]

Ah, my bad. I saw the Uba Stax topic but I totally missed the "Filling out 5 Colour Stax" one... My apologies.

Luiggi

[Jacob Orlove]

Morale of the Story - don't bump month old threads.   

Exactly.

Closed.